: Demise of the Northstar



Harry Yarnell
03-28-08, 12:49 PM
Just read (Automobile) Jamie Kitman's article of the demise of the Northstar. Seems Cadillac wants to dump V8's in favor of V6's . No time frame was given. Sad day.
If this is old news, please forgive me, as I've been spending too much time in the garage...

CadillacSTS42005
03-28-08, 12:50 PM
yea weve known for some time now about this
blame US emissions and failure of the STS V8 for their reasoning...

Ranger
03-28-08, 05:15 PM
You know, Cadillac tried a V6 once. Didn't do very well.

CadillacSTS42005
03-28-08, 06:37 PM
yea
a 4 banger too
so long Cimmerion...

Ur7x
03-28-08, 06:38 PM
Yes this is somewhat old news...

THANK YOU MR Lutz! :rant2:
The "ultimate" V8 that was to replace the Northstar in 2010 is DEAD. Apparently 100% of the design and 90% of the tooling was done and GM management just pulled the plug... They are blaming CAFE etc... But the rumors are that
1) they are shopping at BMW for a V8 Northstar replacement and
2) the reason they killed it was they couldn't justify a "unique" engine "just" for Cadillac... Never make their money back...

I have no Idea how they are going to get there money back now that they have killed this.... But that's why Rick and Bob make the big bucks!

CadillacSTS42005
03-28-08, 06:46 PM
and this is why im buying a 2009 SS Camaro and not holding out for a STS-V

Ur7x
03-28-08, 07:04 PM
and this is why im buying a 2009 SS Camaro and not holding out for a STS-V

The STS is also slated to die in 2010 with the Northstar :crybaby:

CadillacSTS42005
03-28-08, 07:23 PM
yup
DTS and STS =1 new car

Raze
04-01-08, 12:56 PM
Why would I want 320HP out of a 90 all aluminum V8 when I can get 300 out of a much smaller DI V6 or more importantly 500+ out of an LS series 60 pushrod? Guys, look at the simple economics, the N* engine as is is a dinosaur, it doesn't employ half of the capabilities something like a BMW engine has with VVT on intake and exhaust with individually actuated intakes which considerably improves power and fuel economy. GM never spent any money building up the N*'s abilities through the 90's while every other manufacturer did, Lexus, Mercedes and BMW if we're speaking strictly in the luxury market. I for one am glad this technology is being put to rest to make way for GM to spend it on better engines with more potential like DI high compression gasoline and dare I say diesel! I'm looking forward to a turbo diesel variant coming stateside, if it never makes it I'll be happy enough with a manual gear box instead of the autotragic they had to fit to our FWDs, RWD will be nice once again, a 300HP DI V6 is fine by me, though there's alway the LSx based Vs and of course the CTS coupe will offer the all this...

dkozloski
04-01-08, 01:34 PM
Why would I want 320HP out of a 90 all aluminum V8 when I can get 300 out of a much smaller DI V6 or more importantly 500+ out of an LS series 60 pushrod? Guys, look at the simple economics, the N* engine as is is a dinosaur, it doesn't employ half of the capabilities something like a BMW engine has with VVT on intake and exhaust with individually actuated intakes which considerably improves power and fuel economy. GM never spent any money building up the N*'s abilities through the 90's while every other manufacturer did, Lexus, Mercedes and BMW if we're speaking strictly in the luxury market. I for one am glad this technology is being put to rest to make way for GM to spend it on better engines with more potential like DI high compression gasoline and dare I say diesel! I'm looking forward to a turbo diesel variant coming stateside, if it never makes it I'll be happy enough with a manual gear box instead of the autotragic they had to fit to our FWDs, RWD will be nice once again, a 300HP DI V6 is fine by me, though there's alway the LSx based Vs and of course the CTS coupe will offer the all this...
My '06 STS has a longitudinally mounted Northstar V8 with VVT on both intake and exhaust. Although the DI V6 STS has a 300+ HP rating it is totally blown away by the 320HP V8 because of the much broader torque curve that more cubic inches provides. The STS runs the quarter in the mid 13s. There is nothing obsolete about a VVT Northstar.

AJxtcman
04-01-08, 01:48 PM
"LS series 60 pushrod? "
What is an LS series 60 pushrod? I honestly don't know what this is. Am I missing it?

AJxtcman
04-01-08, 01:49 PM
My '06 STS has a longitudinally mounted Northstar V8 with VVT on both intake and exhaust. Although the DI V6 STS has a 300+ HP rating it is totally blown away by the 320HP V8 because of the much broader torque curve that more cubic inches provides. The STS runs the quarter in the mid 13s. There is nothing obsolete about a VVT Northstar.

I am under the impression DI is coming to the RWD Northstar

Ur7x
04-01-08, 02:34 PM
What is an LS series 60 pushrod? I honestly don't know what this is. Am I missing it?

Pretty sure he is talking about a 90 LS1/2/6/7 or as they have become know as the LSx family of motors...

These are all AMAZINGLY good motors and in spite of the fact they were first used in Vettes and "F-bodies". These were designed primarily as a TRUCK motor. They make for fine screaming hot rods and make a "world best" truck motor but there NVH makes them unsuitable for a Cadillac.

Cadillac and the Northstar finds itself competing against DI V8 in the 4.5-5.5 litre range from MB, Lexus, BMW that make at least 380HP the some pushing almost 500HP all while being whisper quiet and mileage on par with our 275-320 Northstars. Shoot even Hyundai is build a stronger 32V V8 now...

I hope AJ is right about the DI Northstar. I'm pretty sure that the DI Northstar was going to be the "Ultra" engine that Bob Lutz killed in Mid January.

GM NEEDS a DI 32V V8 that is thumping out 400-450HP... If they put ANY LSx motor into the new STS/DTS/DS7 or what ever they are going to call it as the base V8 motor... The world media will lift the hood and say "nice, a truck motor based on 1955 technology in your flag ship car" and that car (like the current STS) will flop.

This will also kill the XLR... The Northstar and the S/C Northstar are the heart of that car... Stick an LS6 in there and you have a hard top convertible Vette.

IMHO Bob Lutz made a TERRIBLE decision on the termination of the Northstar replacement. Almost as bad has his design changes to the current STS that made the car way too boxy and upright.

dwight.j.carter
04-01-08, 03:15 PM
I heard they will still offer V8s but only in the V series. In my opinion the 3.6l is a darn good engine and I would drive a car with it.

AJxtcman
04-01-08, 05:35 PM
IMHO Bob Lutz made a TERRIBLE decision on the termination of the Northstar replacement. Almost as bad has his design changes to the current STS that made the car way too boxy and upright.

Not trying to argue or cause problems, but do you know what Bob Putz title is? Are you aware that a few years ago he said that GM may kill of another division? Do you know he lost his JOB? GM stripped him of his title and the made a new position for him. They just wanted to keep him around. Well he took that made up position and ran. Bob Putz is a very smooth talker and could sell you a business plan to make cars under water. He should be running for Prez.
Now do I know the Putz? Is that my Trump card? We all know I have something I shouldn't! Just think about it. :thumbsup:

AJxtcman
04-01-08, 05:36 PM
I heard they will still offer V8s but only in the V series. In my opinion the 3.6l is a darn good engine and I would drive a car with it.

Darn good engine? They are blowing like the 4100:eek:
Yeah I have given them the nickname of the new 4100

Raze
04-01-08, 05:47 PM
Pretty sure he is talking about a 90 LS1/2/6/7 or as they have become know as the LSx family of motors...

Yeah, my bad, I was thinking one thing and typed another I meant 90...




Cadillac and the Northstar finds itself competing against DI V8 in the 4.5-5.5 litre range from MB, Lexus, BMW that make at least 380HP the some pushing almost 500HP all while being whisper quiet and mileage on par with our 275-320 Northstars. Shoot even Hyundai is build a stronger 32V V8 now...


GM NEEDS a DI 32V V8 that is thumping out 400-450HP... If they put ANY LSx motor into the new STS/DTS/DS7 or what ever they are going to call it as the base V8 motor... The world media will lift the hood and say "nice, a truck motor based on 1955 technology in your flag ship car" and that car (like the current STS) will flop....

I agree, it's just not going to happen with the CAFE rules, even Ford wants to start sticking turbocharged DI 4 bangers into cars usually using V6s...

Ur7x
04-01-08, 07:14 PM
Now do I know the Putz? Is that my Trump card? We all know I have something I shouldn't! Just think about it. :thumbsup:

Can you get my $45,000 that he and Red Ink Rick cost me in the devaluation of my GM shares?:want:

PS If he is your second cousin or somthing you shouldn't call him a Putz... even if he is one. ;)

AJxtcman
04-01-08, 07:15 PM
Yeah, my bad, I was thinking one thing and typed another I meant 90...




I agree, it's just not going to happen with the CAFE rules, even Ford wants to start sticking turbocharged DI 4 bangers into cars usually using V6s...

I Posted the information on the Cafe law before it was being voted on!
GM sent out an Urgent Message on the GM Messenger. It said to please call your state rep and stop it. Well WTF :hmm: I did my part. It is not just one persons fault I am not and could not blame you Raze.

Ur7x
04-01-08, 11:10 PM
I agree, it's just not going to happen with the CAFE rules.

You know its interesting that the same CAFE rules seem to have little to no effect on Toyota/Lexus (who are bringing out brand new 400+HP V8's) Hyundia (Who will sell a 350+ HP V8 in a few months) or Nissan. etc etc..

Ever wonder why only GM and Ford are panicking about this?

No decent small cars! The way CAFE works for every Big and Bad V8 you need to sell a couple of small cars... Small cars at Toyota fly off of the lot and they are PROFITABLE... The only cars that are profitable at GM right now are the V8 Trucks... If GM had put the same effort into small cars in the 90's as they did their trucks... They wouldn't be sending out messages asking people to beg congressmen and my stock wouldn't be worth 1/2 of what I paid for it.

CAFE is not the problem Lutz and Rick management is the problem

dkozloski
04-01-08, 11:22 PM
You know its interesting that the same CAFE rules seem to have little to no effect on Toyota/Lexus (who are bringing out brand new 400+HP V8's) Hyundia (Who will sell a 350+ HP V8 in a few months) or Nissan. etc etc..

Ever wonder why only GM and Ford are panicking about this?

No decent small cars! The way CAFE works for every Big and Bad V8 you need to sell a couple of small cars... Small cars at Toyota fly off of the lot and they are PROFITABLE... The only cars that are profitable at GM right now are the V8 Trucks... If GM had put the same effort into small cars in the 90's as they did their trucks... They wouldn't be sending out messages asking people to beg congressmen and my stock wouldn't be worth 1/2 of what I paid for it.

CAFE is not the problem Lutz and Rick management is the problem
So you're saying the solution is for GM to sell more crapbox ricers to offset real cars like Toyota does?

AJxtcman
04-02-08, 07:39 AM
Can you get my $45,000 that he and Red Ink Rick cost me in the devaluation of my GM shares?:want:

PS If he is your second cousin or somthing you shouldn't call him a Putz... even if he is one. ;)

:histeric:
Just think about doing buisness with him. Some how he can talk you into just about anything :hmm:

Ur7x
04-03-08, 09:25 AM
So you're saying the solution is for GM to sell more crapbox ricers to offset real cars like Toyota does?

Ya, kinda... It would work better if GM's small cars weren't "crapbox ricers" and weren't sold with massive discounts and usually at a loss.

If GM had been making "nice" small cars in the 90's instead of Crapalires we wouldn't find ourselves in this mess.

dkozloski
04-03-08, 09:45 AM
"nice" small car is an oxymoron. It's something for the "little people".

Raze
04-03-08, 12:58 PM
I'm with Ur7x on this one, he's spot on, every car rag and editorial on CAFE has basically stated his point, in order to pass as a manufacturer you basically have to sell a larger percentage of more fuel efficient vehicles. This is going to hurt GM and Ford who both sell more pickups & suvs than any other vehicle, and if my facts aren't mistaken Ford was really only making money off it's pickups this past year in the US.

dkozloski, I disagree that nice small car is an oxymoron. Here's a list of a few "nice" small cars that I have driven when loaded with all the options. You'll probably dismiss them because your attitude seems hostile towards cars you deem 'not real cars' but they are nice, fit, finish, handling, power, everything: VW GTI, Mazda Miata and the Honda Civic Si but these aren't the cars (minus the civic) that help Honda and Toyota with CAFE, those are the camry and accord. My fiancee got a new 07 Camry SE w/a 4 banger and an automatic, I thought it would be a POS as her 05 Altima was cheap. In reailty it's fit and finish is awesome with the body kit and 17" alloys, the sport suspension is awesome, puts any US made full sized FWD car to shame, and the 4 banger besides returning 25-33MPG is actually quite powerful on the highway. In fact the only thing I dislike is that the transmission cant figure it out at slower speeds so around town driving can be painful. I'm not comparing it or any "small car" to a Cadillac which can return high 20s on the highway and have more bells and whistles, I am going to point out though that your average American doesn't buy Cadillacs, or "nice" expensive cars because we don't have $45-60k laying around to buy one. Oh did I forget to mention the Camry was only $18k new?

The reality is that for that price the next comparible car she could get from GM or Ford would be a base model Focus, G6, mid sized POS, or a higher optioned G5 or smaller neon-ish piece! I'm serious that a nicely optioned G5 came in more expensive than the Camry SE, I was shocked and told the dealer straight off "this is why you're loosing money" and walked out. Why would anyone buy a US made base model for more than a less expensive higher optioned foreign car, I'll tell you right now no one will. GM and Ford need to make better average cars that real people buy instead of wasting their time and energy in some of these small segment arenas. Make a mid sized car and a full sized car that have more efficient options like a high output 4 banger and more gears in your automatics to help economy, and then give nicer options as a base, and oh yeah keep the friggin prices down.