That title is for you, KC. :)

Anyway. I've been researching and researching and researching and researching and researching and researching and researching and researching and researching and researching and researching and researching and researching and researching and researching and researching and researching and researching and researching and researching and researching and researching and researching...

You get the point...

As it turns out, yes - Lexus is a pretty damn reliable car. But, still very expensive to own and maintain. Quite possibly less expensive than a Cadillac - but expensive, nonetheless... It takes a TON and a half of asking questions and actually reading into the answers and then asking more questions and then actually reading into those answers and... You know...

So before you consider buying a competitor over a Cadillac, consider the fact that any luxury car is going to be somewhat expensive in the long-run... Afterall, one of the reasons people respect you when you drive an expensive car is because they assume you have the money to keep it running...

At any cost, it appears that Cadillac is on the right track when it comes to building amazing automobiles. If you've been considering a Caddy but just weren't too sure whether or not it was the right decision - it probably was/IS the right decision...

Sal

I like Lexus, GX and LS are on my list to test drive this winter when i get a new car

Luxury cars ARE more expensive to maintain overall but don't forget that the average ownership is less than the new car warranty, so cost of ownership is near zilch for at least the first owner.

Again it's down to the fact that the guy that drives a BRAND NEW luxury car either has money or works for a company that likes to spend it on making their employees comfy.

Not only do you get more recognition, but IMO they are better built and will last longer. You do get what you pay for..... There are always those 4 bangers that run forever, but luxuary cars, when taken care of, KEEP looking good. .

What kind of problems were lexus' plagued with???

I heard the 1st generation LS400 was the most reliable lexus ever?!

Originally posted by elwesso
but luxuary cars, when taken care of, KEEP looking good. .



this is something i've definitely noticed. Cadillacs, BMW's, MB's, Lexus, Infiniti, etc. Any luxury car seems to look better longer. When you see a 10 year old luxury car it still has a certain cache attached to it, even if its old. But when you see like a 10 year old Camry, you just think, man that guy needs a new car.

True.... Maybe if people have crap for cars they care for it like crap, but if they have an expensive car (or was expensive) they may take better care of it.... But there is definitely a better build quality of expensive cars over cheapies....

Originally posted by Brett
this is something i've definitely noticed. Cadillacs, BMW's, MB's, Lexus, Infiniti, etc. Any luxury car seems to look better longer. When you see a 10 year old luxury car it still has a certain cache attached to it, even if its old. But when you see like a 10 year old Camry, you just think, man that guy needs a new car.

Very true, I get new Caddy owners telling me that they still like the '89-93 style better than the new dare I say "fastback" The 2000+ are just so sporty and to me not very classy. IMO.:cool:

Actually, we're not talking about style here. We're talking about the fact that they don't lose their integrity like other cars. For example, most luxury cars get better paint jobs - and more layers of paint. Take a look at a Camry and then a Lexus ES - both 10 years old. Both cars are made by the same company but the Lexus will hold up longer. The paint is better - amongst other things...

It was hard to tell my '95 ETC wasn't brand new...

Originally posted by Sal Collaziano
Actually, we're not talking about style here. We're talking about the fact that they don't lose their integrity like other cars. For example, most luxury cars get better paint jobs - and more layers of paint. Take a look at a Camry and then a Lexus ES - both 10 years old. Both cars are made by the same company but the Lexus will hold up longer. The paint is better - amongst other things...

It was hard to tell my '95 ETC wasn't brand new...


Great example, thats exactly what I mean. Same basic car, but the old ES gets more respect and seemingly looks better, even though its just as outdated as the camry.

Right. Except "seemingly" could be removed from that sentence. Since the paint-job is better, and the interior more luxurious (leather, console, wood, better stereo, etc) - it actually IS better...

Nowadays, even the drivetrain is better...

Originally posted by elwesso
What kind of problems were lexus' plagued with???

I heard the 1st generation LS400 was the most reliable lexus ever?!

They're not plagued with problems but they have their share of things that need to be replaced - which aren't inexpensive. The 90,000 mile scheduled service could get very expensive. The soft suspension is probably the most well-known feature of those cars - and they're costly to replace. After awhile, you'll need to replace things or it wont ride the way it's supposed to (like any car).

It's just not like we usually hear it is. 'Nothing ever goes wrong'. The truth is, things do go wrong - and while it may not happen as often as with other makes and models, it's just as expensive - if not more expensive.

There's a phrase very rarely heard by us Outsiders.. "Welcome to Lexus". That's what they say when you freak out about how expensive things are to repair...

Thats good information.......... So in actuality their not what their cracked up to be....

Is there any problems that are especially common (ie Northstar head gasket, case half leak, and oil consumption)

Or things that HAVE to be done or the car will be destroyed (1st generation Q45 timing guide issue)

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Perception becomes reality. The Cadillac depreciates at an alarming rate in its first two years. The Lexus does not. The public perceives the Lexus to be far superior to the Cadillac, but I haven't seen any statistics (on the DeVille) to support this as factual.

The best buy on the luxury market today is a 2-year-old Cadillac with less than 30,000 miles on it. Somebody else takes the bath, and you get the quality for half the price.

IMO, it is best to get any car used.... You could get a 2002 caddy with less than 3000 on the odo and save 20k......

In any case, depreciation by just taking it off the lot is extreme...

Originally posted by elwesso
IMO, it is best to get any car used.... You could get a 2002 caddy with less than 3000 on the odo and save 20k......

In any case, depreciation by just taking it off the lot is extreme...

I agree, if you know the owner. Many leased vehicles, in general, may not be as well maintained, for example the people leasing know they will get rid of it and not change the oil as often. Mind you, there will still be some warrenty. There are some women in my large apartment complex who are leasing and one has gone more than 8,000 kms on her Toyota Avalon without an oil change! 4000kms is my limit for guilt. Elvis said it best and has a firm grasp on reality, "The public perceives the Lexus to be superior than the Cadillac, but no stats on the subject." Sal, I would never call the interior of a Lexus MORE luxurious than a Cadillac, thats subjective in my opinion. Beauty in the beholder and all that. PS Did you know that 1991 was the first year that Fleetwood started using real American Walnut for its interiors? It's in my brochure. Anything mechanical will break down eventually. Gee this sounds like the "Cadillac VS other manufacturers" thread.;)

On depreciation, true the first few years on Caddies they sink like a rock, but after that they level off a bit. It's the exact opposite for foreign luxury cars, they hold the first few years AND THEN depreciate. Especially after 100,000 kms or 62,000 miles. (here anyway)

The interior thing certainly isn't a fact - just my opinion. Being in both cars, I can tell one is better than the other - atleast to me. The Caddy's feel loose. Otherwise - the depreciation is just ridiculous.. A 1995 Lexus LS still sells for $25k. Have you seen what the 1995 DeVille's are going for? It's a damn shame...

There may be a SMALL quality difference, but its definitely not worth 20k.....

Value, is what someone is willing to pay. Unfortunately, that makes automotive values very subjective. Cars that are worth the most are generally "percieved" to be better cars. This, however does not mean that better cars, hold their value longer. Perfect case in point would be the Impala SS. They hold their value MUCH better than any other of the B or D body cars from the same period but are actually the cheapest of the bunch. Popularity rules in resale value.

So are you saying you could get more from a 95 impala than a 95 fleetwood....

Well yes, just like the movie F&F made Toyota Supra values skyrocket, popularity or demand certainly has a way of raising value for anything including cars. I guarentee that if someone used my type of Caddy in a movie, same color and external physical appearance, my car's value would escalate. The movie "Vanishing Point" made white Hemi Challengers quite collectable from what I understand. So popularity, image, reputation and quality play important roles for value of cars.

Hell yeah. Not that I like it but you can generally buy a Cadillac Fleetwood cheaper than a Chevy Impala SS. Check the ads for yourself.

That seems weird, their basically the same car, but the caddy is better in almost every aspect where they are different...... What aftermarket/performance parts CANT be used on the caddy that CAN be used on the impala...

For a '95LS to get 25K it would have to be in exceptional condition and very low miles.

To my mind the Lexus LS is simply the best luxury car out there. I am not talking about the fastest or best handling but the one that has the lowest cost to operate and that has incredible ride quality.

Things to look for on older Lexus's. LCDs in the radio and ip going out. Bent seat frames, air conditioning. Suspension issues which are normal with mileage.

And stay away from the cars with air suspension.

I am starting to hear about LS's with over 300K miles.

Certainly a superior car to anythng tha Cadillac has to offer right now in that segment.

How do you come up with [based on what]

"Certainly a superior car to anythng tha Cadillac has to offer right now in that segment."

"lowest cost to operate"

I'll agree to not having any northstar cadillacs goto 300k, but im sure there are plenty of 4.9 and LT1 cadillacs approaching 300k. I suppose there may be more lexus running at high mileages because the owners respect the cars more and will pay to keep them running.

I'm sorry, but i dont see how you coming up with their low operation costs. Their maintenance schedule is complex, and dealers can charge more than cadillac does for the major maintenance items... Most high operation costs of used cars can be traced down to a lack of maintenance on the first/second owners part.... Nowadays there is almost something you could be doing to prevent a certain part from failing, minus consumable items such as rubber, alternators, etc. Obviously EVERYTHING is going to fail at some point in time, but their life can be lived to the fullest with the best of maintenance...

Lexus is just as expensive to maintain when something breaks - just things break less. That's a fact, Wes. That's why they're the lowest to operate. Unfortunately, that part is true. But, when something goes wrong - you have to pay for it and it's not cheap...

As far as the other stuff - their top performers out-perform the Cadillacs and they have much softer rides. Unfortunately for them, that means they don't handle as well. For people who love the old Caddy's where you never felt a bump, you'd be happy in a Lexus... For a better handling car, you buy a Caddy - but you're not as quick to 60 or the 1/4 mile.. It's all give and take and about what you want...

At any cost, GM is pushing Buick to get those soft, cushy interiors for their next generation of vehicles - labled the Domestic Lexus - while Cadillac is aiming for the Big Germans - Mercedes and BMW...

That is a good point, but i dont think that their differences would be substantially different.... I'm sure if you took a new LS400 and a new STS, drove them for 50k, doing all the same maintenance, I can assume that their costs (under warranty) would be about (differential of about 500, insignificant when were talking about a $75k car) the same.... Although, i have never owned a cadillac :)

Now in the long run, I can agree that they hold up better, but to some degree that is relative. If someone drives a lexus (lets say 95 LS400) with 100k on it, and it is still worth 15k, they are going to make sure it still runs. Now a 95 STS with 100k may only be worth 7k or 8k, and obviously someone isnt going to want to drop a ton of money into it, it only makes sense..... Nonetheless, i can still agree that lexus does hold up better..... But IMO, cadillacs CAN be as reliable....

Several magazines have "test fleets" and they report all the things that happen to the cars during the period of time they have them. Usually, they have the cars for at least 10-15K miles. Unfortunately, the domestic cars seem to have many more "issues" in these fleets from what I've seen. And quite often, the dealers inability to fix the cars properly is a BIG part of these "issues". Recently, I remember one magazine having SO much trouble with a Chevy Trailblazer that they actually had to have Chevy take it back to the factory guys to get it fixed.

That is different...... In which case, it is hard to compare, because if a dealer sucks and one dealer does the job, they will seem like 2 different cars... Over the course of 10k the car may only have to go to the dealer once at a good dealer, but if the dealer isnt good it may show up multiple times.... And i would say, overall, the lexus dealers (and for that matter most foreign dealers) are going to be better than GM dealers.... Obviously they are going to be exceptions, but thats the way it seems overall...

If generally, the dealers can't fix the cars properly AND the cars break down more often - how is it different? It seems to me that the dealers generally don't do a good job - and the cars generally don't hold together... That's enough to make an impression on anybody...

Like it or not, THAT's how the statistics are compiled. It goes by the number of service visits, period. If one marque manages to fix it right the FIRST time, they will definately get better scores. And they SHOULD because the customer doesn't care WHY it's going to the dealer, they just know that it's going and that's inconvenient. Whether it's for the same thing over and over, or several different things, it's STILL in the shop and NOT on the road.

Drove a GX470 today, that is a damn sweet ride for an SUV

It seems really pitiful that you buy a 70k car from a dealer, and they dont fix it when it needs it!!!! :mad:

That's probably because the computers are so complex today, even for Cadillac. BTW, which car company, do you think, has the best technology, most reliably computers, or the most complex computer technology? And I bet that will be the cars that don't get properly diagnosed and fixed the first trip to the dealer.

BMW probably has the most complex computer systems, but cadillac is not far behind.... We have discussed this at other times, and have found cadillac computers to be pretty reliable, not too many failures..... But I dont know who actually has the most reliable computers, most likely the Japs since most of our computers come from there anyway!!!!

You guys are right about the "let the other guy take the bath" comment. 3 months ago I bought a 2001 STS, fully loaded (minus navigation, but every other option) with 13K miles for just under $30K. To be honest, I was looking for a Lexus, Mercedes, or BMW. But I saw this beauty on the lot, saw the mileage and price, HAD to drive it. WOW, what a car...and better yet, what a great deal. There's still 2 years of warrantee on the car! And in looking ahead, it seems it'll cost me about $2,500 / year to drive the car if I sell it around when the warrantee runs out. How can you beat that?

i don't know why so many of you guys believe that lexus is such a reliable car, a lexus is basically a toyota that costs 5 to 10 thousand dollars more. and toyotas are so unreliable and expensive to fix its not even funny. 1st example a friend of mine who loves toycrapos bought a fairly used 99 solara with 30,000 miles on it, it was always service at the dealer, and guess what at 60,000 miles the great japanese v6 engine blow a rod and destoyed the whole engine, great car huh, 2nd example another toycrapo lover bought a used 1996 camry with low miles guess what 2 months later the head gasket is gone and a new engine is needed again, great car huh.

the only thing that toycrapo and crapxus has for it is stupid comsumers and stupid magazine that praise japanese cars like they can do no wrong.
so f toyota, f lexus and lets keep back to a cadillac discussion, and lets put the lexus discussions back to the ricer forums, and one more thing go Yankees. :bouncy:

i don't know why so many of you guys believe that lexus is such a reliable car

Because year after year JD Power rates Lexus number one in reliability, and not usually by a small margin. Check out some Lexus forums, there are very few posts concerning technical problems. And the posts that are there usually go something like "wtf, my water pump broke and I only have 200k miles on it". Cadillac has imo better looking cars and definitely more "soul" but for now they are behind in the reliability department

how do they know the reliablity of a car if its 1,2 or 3 years old , lets see if a fancy toyota can stand the test of time like most caddy's do.

i can't stand these lexus lovers on a CADILLAC FORUM, GET IT CADILLAC FORUM, NOT POS LEXUS FORUM. GET IT!!! :mad:

And I managed to squirm my way into being a moderator too....you need to relax.

You bring up an excellent point....... Thats why you need to by NISSAN or INFINITI...... :thumbsup:

The Facts:

Lexus is the "#1 Nameplate in Long-Term Dependability (VDI) (JD Power and Associates) (2003 was the 9th year in as many years of eligibility)"

This study measures problems reported over 3 years and this year is a measure of performance of 2000 model year vehicles.

Cadillac still isn't doing bad though:

"Cadillac scored a 7th place finish with 209 problems per 100 vehicles.

Scoring better than Cadillac are:

Lexus (163)
Infiniti (174)
Buick (179)
Porsche (193)
Acura (196)
Toyota (201)

Notable brands scoring worse than Cadillac are:

Lincoln (212)
Honda (218)
Jaguar (247)
Saab (255)
BMW (262)
Mercedes (318)
Volvo (330)
Land Rover (441)

Industry average is 273."

Well yes, just like the movie F&F made Toyota Supra values skyrocket, popularity or demand certainly has a way of raising value for anything including cars. I guarentee that if someone used my type of Caddy in a movie, same color and external physical appearance, my car's value would escalate. The movie "Vanishing Point" made white Hemi Challengers quite collectable from what I understand. So popularity, image, reputation and quality play important roles for value of cars.

Thank the gods that my CTS is in the Matrix then(but is it worth more with the bulletholes?). :p I heard it also appears in the new Bad Boys movie...

Thank the gods that my CTS is in the Matrix then(but is it worth more with the bulletholes?). :p I heard it also appears in the new Bad Boys movie...


Actually, you can buy those little "bullet-hole" stickers. But they wouldn't look good on a nice car. But then,,,,,you could say it WAS THE car used in the movie!! :D