: Help identify foreign object jamming intake valve open



Raze
03-10-08, 01:17 PM
I posted over in the Eldo/Seville forum but this is definatley a N* related issue:

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-seville-cadillac-eldorado-forum/133899-experience-needed-name-part-pic-jammed.html

Basically I need to know where in the intake/throttle body this part came from or if it's a foreign object, also, it scarred the intake (not the valve) near the valve seat and I need to know how far down the valve seat goes. There appears to be 3 distinct colored regions, the lighter grey upper casting, a white line, and then the darker grey/black before the intake opens up into the CC. the damage is through the white line but does not appear to be below. I'm going to do a compression test this week to see if it seals now, if not I'll have to pull the head.

AJ, Ranger, or someone who knows of or how to remove the head in the car I need a little help here, can the timing chain be slacked enough to get it off the cam sprockets? I'm assuming I need to mark the chain and the cam sprockets but is there any chance the crank could rotate? If so how to I prevent this while trying to slack the chains to pull them off. I was searching the site as I remember some members years ago doing the HG job w/the block in the car which means they pulled the chain/heads but I recall there was a trick to locking the timing. Any help here is appreciated.

Thanks!

CadillacSTS42005
03-10-08, 01:49 PM
just told ya wat it is lol

Raze
03-10-08, 02:17 PM
I've looked over the intake and the TB and haven't found where it might have come from, I'm trying to figure out if it's a part of the Caddy's intake or not, if not which i don't think it is, it makes me wonder how it got in there...

tateos
03-10-08, 02:44 PM
Looks like an intake manifold cover grommet to me also - can't imagine how it would get into the intake port, unless the manifold had been removed for a starter or something like that - then it could EASILY fall in.

Raze
03-10-08, 04:38 PM
Well I'll have to double check now that it seems to have been identified since I have the intake off and everything apart, if this is the case I wonder if I have grounds to have the shop that did the head gasket job a couple years ago (it's out of warranty now) take responsibility for it as it's been documented cause i took it to a shop when the problem first occurred and have pictures and they are the only people who would have taken the intake manifold off though they could easily deny it. Oh well, anyone have any idea about the valve seat issue?

tateos
03-10-08, 05:14 PM
If the valve is not closing, here is what I think:

If the grommet got caught in between the valve and the seat, that would make the valve hang open and the piston would probably hit it and bend the valve stem, which would prevent it from seating. Once you get the head off, you can remove the valve and inspect the seat. If it is just a bent valve, it is no big deal. I don't think replacement valve seats are available, but if it is just nicked, it can be ground. Probably the piston is OK or you would have known by now.

Ranger
03-10-08, 05:24 PM
AJ, Ranger, or someone who knows of or how to remove the head in the car I need a little help here, can the timing chain be slacked enough to get it off the cam sprockets? I'm assuming I need to mark the chain and the cam sprockets but is there any chance the crank could rotate? If so how to I prevent this while trying to slack the chains to pull them off. I was searching the site as I remember some members years ago doing the HG job w/the block in the car which means they pulled the chain/heads but I recall there was a trick to locking the timing. Any help here is appreciated.
Having never done this, I am going to leave this for someone who has.

AJxtcman
03-10-08, 08:34 PM
I posted over in the Eldo/Seville forum but this is definatley a N* related issue:

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-seville-cadillac-eldorado-forum/133899-experience-needed-name-part-pic-jammed.html

Basically I need to know where in the intake/throttle body this part came from or if it's a foreign object, also, it scarred the intake (not the valve) near the valve seat and I need to know how far down the valve seat goes. There appears to be 3 distinct colored regions, the lighter grey upper casting, a white line, and then the darker grey/black before the intake opens up into the CC. the damage is through the white line but does not appear to be below. I'm going to do a compression test this week to see if it seals now, if not I'll have to pull the head.

AJ, Ranger, or someone who knows of or how to remove the head in the car I need a little help here, can the timing chain be slacked enough to get it off the cam sprockets? I'm assuming I need to mark the chain and the cam sprockets but is there any chance the crank could rotate? If so how to I prevent this while trying to slack the chains to pull them off. I was searching the site as I remember some members years ago doing the HG job w/the block in the car which means they pulled the chain/heads but I recall there was a trick to locking the timing. Any help here is appreciated.

Thanks!


Sorry I was busy all weekend
Yeah we all know what it is.
When was the last time the intake was off?

Raze
03-10-08, 08:49 PM
2 years ago... Makes me think it was dropped into the intake during reinstall and was eventually but not immediately sucked in as the intake is pretty gooey and there's indication on the spacer that it's got some of the associated goo on it (though it has been washed by gasoline a bit but one side does indicate some goo on it. That is quite literally the last time...

codewize
03-11-08, 07:47 PM
At first glance, I second the beauty cover grommet insert.

dwight.j.carter
03-11-08, 09:15 PM
could that have stayed in there for two years like that ?

Raze
03-12-08, 08:58 AM
I think it was sitting in the intake manifold stuck to a wall or crevase cause the whole of the intake is a sticky gooey coating of oil, gasoline, exhaust gas, it's nasty and very sticky. At some point this past summer it must have come loose cause thats when the symptoms started and it must have been rattling around in the intake port for a few months. That being said, anyone know the clearance between the intake valve and the piston at TDC?

ewill3rd
03-12-08, 09:33 AM
That is the metal collar that goes inside the beauty cover bushing, the only way it could have gotten in there is if the intake was removed for whatever reason. It would have to have been dropped into the intake port, I don't see how it could have wound up in the manifold itself.
It could have bounced around in there for a long time. Once I had (in my own car) a bolt that was in an intake port for a long time before one day the valve popped it through the cylinder head into the water jacket.
The head can be removed but you'll have to have a special tool to hold the pressure on the timing chain tensioner while the work is done.
Otherwise the timing cover will have to come off to restring the chains.

I doubt they will take the blame if it has been 2 years, no one else has worked on it lately?

Raze
03-12-08, 01:13 PM
nobody, the only time it's been off in the past 2 years was for the timesert/HG repair which was done by a 'reputable' shop who I have since written off because they've broken other things on my caddy and blamed me. When replacing my heater core they cracked the plastic faux wooden trim on the pass dash and said it was like that when they got it which I know it wasn't. They even tried to blame my old shop for a broken drain valve on my radiator after the HG job and I couldn't believe it because it was fine for 2 years before that until they took it out to do the HG replacement, they even tried to get my old shop to pay for it and I told them straight up to fix it and I was never coming back. Oh by the way they are Cadillac and Jaguar of Northlake to the NE of Atlanta near Chamblee Tucker Rd. All of this was of course before I had the time/tools/place to do the work myself.

Ok I need to know a couple more things, AJ says the chances of the timeserts pulling out is high, has anyone had to pull a head after the sert job? If so what was your experience?

I know this is an interference engine but since the metal part only wedged the intake valve open a little bit what is the minimum clearance between the intake valve and the piston at TDC? If it's less than .X mm then I'm pretty sure it hit, if it's more like 2-3 mm then I think the valve may be ok but I'll be comp testing tomorrow evening to be sure...

tateos
03-12-08, 01:38 PM
Raze;

The wooden trim is not faux - it is real wood with a plastic finish on top. Mine cracked there also, and no one was near it - it just cracked.

Not sure what the clearance is, but the valve reliefs in the piston are not that deep, so the clearance must be pretty small, or they would not bother to cut the reliefs. In any event, if the valve will not seat and the valve stem is bent, it was bent by the piston and must be replaced, right? The clearance is irrelevant, right?

I think when AJ says the Time-Serts come out, he means the aluminum lets go in the block when it is the powdery variety. If your inserts are still holding, the threads in the block must be OK, right? So, even if the Time-Serts come out with the cylinder head bolt, couldn't you re-install new ones, as long as the threaded hole in the block is still OK? I'm not 100% percent on the Time-Serts - I used Norm's, and if a Norm's insert came out, you could re-install it/ and or replace it - as long as the threads in the block are still OK. Maybe the bottom portion on the Time-Serts where they are expanded will ruin the threads in the block when removed?

dkozloski
03-12-08, 04:02 PM
If Timeserts are properly installed they are locked in. The bottom thread is shallow so the installer expands the insert as it screws on through. The top outside of the Timesert has a small shoulder to stop the insert from being driven too deep in the process. The shallow threads on a Timesert are pretty subtle so they might be missed if you didn't know what to look for.The old guru who used to frequent the board said that he's seen Timeseted engines that were disasembled many times with no problem.

AJxtcman
03-12-08, 08:14 PM
If Timeserts are properly installed they are locked in. The bottom thread is shallow so the installer expands the insert as it screws on through. The top outside of the Timesert has a small shoulder to stop the insert from being driven too deep in the process. The shallow threads on a Timesert are pretty subtle so they might be missed if you didn't know what to look for.The old guru who used to frequent the board said that he's seen Timeseted engines that were disasembled many times with no problem.

I just install a full set of 11 X 2.0 TimeSerts in a 11 X 1.5 engine today. Every single hole had chipped threads. The engine DID NOT have a head gasket failure. You all know how I feel about putting all the Inserts in. Well this one got them all and I upgraded them at the same time.

BTW it is for HighlineCady

Raze
03-14-08, 01:28 PM
Raze;

The wooden trim is not faux - it is real wood with a plastic finish on top. Mine cracked there also, and no one was near it - it just cracked.

cool that it's real wood, interesting, I just know when I dropped it off it was fine, when I got it back it was cracked, and the heater core is over on the pass side under all that stuff but I digress...



Not sure what the clearance is, but the valve reliefs in the piston are not that deep, so the clearance must be pretty small, or they would not bother to cut the reliefs. In any event, if the valve will not seat and the valve stem is bent, it was bent by the piston and must be replaced, right? The clearance is irrelevant, right?

If it was bent which I don't think it was due to the fact that the timing of the engine is still correct and even though the valve was partially down it was being held down by a steel grommet on a steel valve in an aluminum intake, the steel grommet was cut into the aluminum and since that was the case the piston would have simply smacked it up further but not necessarily bent the valve stem as it was not being held down by the camshaft at the top but rather by a round grommet whose curvature closely matches the rear of the actual valve right behind the valve not the valve stem, removing all the pressure of contact from the stem and transfering it to the valve itself which is much harder to bend. This discription/physical explanation is hard to illustrate in words but trust me I don't think the valve could have gotten damaged badly the way the piece lodged behind it.

To test I dropped some gas then oil on there and had no leak which was promising. Next, I compression tested (last night) with the engine cold since the rad is out and the intake is off. The gauge shot right up to 120 on 4 cranks with a very weak battery, i cranked it a few more times and it got up to 135, I know testing with a weak battery & cold engine will make it read low but it's not like i'm getting 0-80psi compression wich would really worry me, instead I'm only getting 10% lower than a warm engine w/strong battery so it looks ok. I'll be getting a leak down tester tonight as I have an air compressor and I'll be doing a leak down on #6 on Sat but right now it looks promising.



I think when AJ says the Time-Serts come out, he means the aluminum lets go in the block when it is the powdery variety. If your inserts are still holding, the threads in the block must be OK, right? So, even if the Time-Serts come out with the cylinder head bolt, couldn't you re-install new ones, as long as the threaded hole in the block is still OK? I'm not 100% percent on the Time-Serts - I used Norm's, and if a Norm's insert came out, you could re-install it/ and or replace it - as long as the threads in the block are still OK. Maybe the bottom portion on the Time-Serts where they are expanded will ruin the threads in the block when removed?

You are absolutely correct, I'm not worried if they pulled out without damaging the threads, I'm worried the threads will pull back out w/the timeserts because they can. dkozloski brought up exactly the fact about serts I was looking for that they lock in after the head bolt is screwed in, I missed that and figured there was some sort of locking mechanism but didn't know what it was as the timesert website doesn't cover that fact in what I found. I also vaguely remember the old Guru's post about putting the heads on and off after serting but after reading a bunch of AJ's horror stories it had me wondering...

Thanks guys I'll give you an update later this weekend!

tateos
03-14-08, 02:29 PM
Raze:

You had said earlier:

right now it looks like the valve isn't closing all the way

That is why I said the valve stem was bent. I still think the valve stem will bend, just behind the head, if the grommet was caught between the valve and the seat. The valve stems on these valves are pretty small in diameter and can bend easily - that is why the FSM warns against putting the cylinder head down flat on a bench - one or more valves are always open at any given time. I understand that the valve tip would not be in contact with the lifter and cam lobe if the valve was held open by the grommet, but if the opposite side of the valve head contacted the piston, it would bend.

Anyway, if your initial assessment was wrong, and the the valve does close all the way, maybe you were lucky and did not bend the valve - maybe you are all set. Maybe the valve or seat were damaged, and I guess you can do a leakdown test, but why not just re-install the intake manifold and fire it up and see how she runs? That's all that matters in the end, right?

Raze
03-16-08, 11:01 PM
MAJOR UPDATE - SHE'S ALIVE! not 100% but after startup she smoothed right out and no longer misses, but, I've got a really loud ticking coming from the back of the engine/head, this could have something to do with the fact that the vaccum line from the intake to the back valve cover broke and I was waiting on the JB weld repair to fix it so I just plugged em up (know that's not the best thing in the world) and I was way down on oil, like 3.5 quarts and the gasoline is close to 4 months old. I filled it up with oil but it didn't go away, I didn't run the car for more than a couple minutes mostly at idle though i gave it a couple blips to 3k or so. Hope it's just a collapsed lifter and it wasn't getting oil, otherwise it's something worse, it doesn't sound like bottom end 'knock' more of a back of the engine 'head' tick. I'll have to sort it but it revs ok and runs ok. I'll give it an oil change this week and maybe sea foam it and put some fresh gas in, but I may need one of the guys down at my old shop who used to have a caddy dealership (he's semi-retired now) take a listen...

ewill3rd
03-17-08, 08:18 AM
Don't plug the PCV system, put a piece of hose on it if nothing else.
If you plug it, you'll start blowing oil out of places you never knew existed!

Raze
03-17-08, 08:48 AM
Don't plug the PCV system, put a piece of hose on it if nothing else.
If you plug it, you'll start blowing oil out of places you never knew existed!


That's what I figured but I didn't have a hose that would reach so I figured I'd just bypass that part as I didn't run it for long, I just wanted to see if it was still misfiring which it doesn't appear to be.

ewill3rd
03-17-08, 09:05 AM
If the hard plastic line broke, just get a short piece of vacuum line and slip it over the break. Did it crack in the middle?

Raze
03-17-08, 01:10 PM
nope, oddly enough it broke on the soft rubber end that connects to the intake manifold behind the TB, I had put a bit of a sideload on it accidentially and it basically sheared off...

ewill3rd
03-17-08, 06:24 PM
If it is the elbow on the intake, that happens a lot.
Sometimes we pull the 90 degree end off of a plug wire and use that, it fits amazingly well and is more resilient than the original elbow.

Raze
03-17-08, 10:47 PM
If it is the elbow on the intake, that happens a lot.
Sometimes we pull the 90 degree end off of a plug wire and use that, it fits amazingly well and is more resilient than the original elbow.

wow that's a really good idea, can definatley see that, yeah the elbow broke and it seems aged/dry easily tearable so that's cool.

ewill3rd
03-18-08, 08:18 AM
We keep a stash of old plug wires in one of our cabinets just for that reason :lol:

It really works great!
The coil end is better, N* wires are perfect for that too!
(if you have an old one laying around)

tateos
03-18-08, 01:53 PM
So Raze - the engine is running well now? You just took the grommet out and it is fine? If so, that is awesome... and amazing!

Raze
03-21-08, 11:43 PM
Yeah I got the rear valve cover vaccuum line fixed (just jb welded it up) and gave it a much needed oil change today (friday, and man it needed it back in Dec when the valve got stuck open, the oil was nearly 6 months old!!!!). So after all that I fired it up today and it ticked for about 2 sec and then went right away and runs smooth like it used to. Now I just have to finish bleeding the coolant system and top it off and put the front bumper on and it'll be in running shape (minus tie rod ends and an intermediate steering shaft) but those are minor nuisances compared to this!

tateos
03-22-08, 11:57 AM
Mmm - I don't know...that intermediate steering shaft comes in pretty handy sometimes!

Raze
03-22-08, 02:33 PM
bah the boot is just torn off and the grease unpacked but the shaft is still in tack, just squeeks and isn't exactly in the best shape but it's ok.

tateos
03-24-08, 01:48 PM
How did the boot get torn? It is in a pretty protected place, and is made of tough stuff - I can't imagine how you could tear it?

Raze
03-25-08, 08:54 AM
It wasn't 'torn' off, I should have been more clear, but the base of the boot had come free and all the grease let out. This allows the joint to wear squeek as it's no longer lubricated. The ISS assembly is behind the rear valve cover toward the driver's side (obviously) and looks like a large cylinder covered by an accordian style boot. It's hard to reach with everything on the back of the engine but removal of the plug wires (for me) and some other bits and it's accessible from the front. Kind of a PITA to get to though but the failure of the boot is common after a number of years (similar to a half shaft) and can lead to a whole bunch of symptoms that may seem steering rack or suspension related, in fact there is a GM service bulletin on them and how to repack an existing one which isn't bad, or to replace, but replacement usually ends up being longer lived just like a half shaft...

tateos
03-25-08, 12:59 PM
Interesting, RAZE. I just did a HG job on my '97 ETC, so I know the area well. My boot is very tough and just slips over the end of the steering gear. I found it difficult to push up when I had to re-install the ISS on the steering rack input shaft stub The best way to get to it is through the wheel well opening. That squeak would probably drive me nuts - I think I would have to replace the ISS if it were me