: Southwest Airlines Flying Unsafe Planes



CadillacGurl
03-06-08, 05:51 PM
As some of you know, I fly out every week from Chicago to Pittsburgh via Southwest Airlines. I figured I'd share this article since CIWS notified me of this:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/03/06/southwest.planes/index.html

Southwest Airlines flew 'unsafe' planes

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- -- Discount air carrier Southwest Airlines flew thousands of passengers on aircraft that federal inspectors said were "unsafe" as recently as last March, according to detailed congressional documents obtained by CNN.

Documents submitted by FAA inspectors to congressional investigators allege the airline flew at least 117 of its planes in violation of mandatory safety checks. In some cases, the documents say, the planes flew for 30 months after government inspection deadlines had passed and should have been grounded until the inspections could be completed.

The planes were "not airworthy," according to congressional air safety investigators.

Calling it "one of the worst safety violations" he has ever seen, Rep. James Oberstar, D-Minnesota, is expected to call a hearing as soon as possible to ask why the airline put its passengers in danger.

Southwest Airlines, which carried more passengers in the United States than any other airline last year, declined comment.

"We are not doing interviews. We are only preparing for the hearings at this time," said Southwest Airlines spokeswoman Brandy King.

The documents obtained by CNN also allege that some management officials at the Federal Aviation Administration, the agency responsible for commercial air safety, knew the planes were flying "unsafely" and did nothing about it. Video CNN's Drew Griffin uncovers 'troubling information' ╗

"The result of inspection failures, and enforcement failure, has meant that aircraft have flown unsafe, unairworthy, and at risk of lives," Oberstar told CNN.

He said both FAA managers and the airline may also have broken the law as well as threatened the safety of Southwest passengers.

The documents were prepared by two FAA safety inspectors who have requested whistle-blower status from the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, which is headed by Oberstar.

The two inspectors have been subpoenaed to testify before the committee. The nation's "Whistle-Blower Protection Program" protects federal employees from being fired or retaliated against by their employer.

The whistle-blowers say FAA managers knew about the lapse in safety at Southwest, but decided to allow the airline to conduct the safety checks on a slower schedule because taking "aircraft out of service would have disrupted Southwest Airlines' flight schedule."

According to statements made by one of the FAA inspectors seeking whistle-blower status, a manager at the FAA "permitted the operation of these unsafe aircraft in a matter that would provide relief" to the airline, even though customers were on board.

The safety inspections ignored or delayed by the airline were mandated after two fatal crashes and one fatal incident, all involving Boeing's 737, the only type of airplane Southwest flies.

In 1994, a U.S. Air Boeing 737 crashed in Pittsburgh killing 132. Three years earlier, a United Airlines Boeing 737 crashed in Colorado Springs, killing 25. Investigators blamed both crashes on problems in the planes' rudder control system, leading the FAA to demand regular checks of the 737's rudder system.

Documents provided to CNN show 70 Southwest jets were allowed to fly past the deadline for the mandatory rudder inspections.

The documents also show 47 more Southwest jets kept flying after missing deadlines for inspections for cracks in the planes' fuselage or "skin."

The long-term, mandatory checks for fuselage cracks were required after the cabin of an Aloha Airlines 737 tore apart in mid-air in 1988, killing a flight attendant. That incident, which opened much of the top of the plane during flight, was attributed to cracks in the plane's fuselage that grew wider as the plane underwent pressure changes during flight.

An FAA inspector at a Southwest Airlines maintenance facility spotted a fuselage crack on one of the airline's 737s last year, according to the congressional documents. He notified the airline and then began looking through safety records, discovering dozens of planes that had missed mandatory inspection deadlines.

According to the inspector's statement in congressional documents: "Southwest Airlines at the time of discovery did not take immediate, corrective action as required to address this unsafe condition and continued to fly the affected aircraft with paying passengers."

The documents show Southwest Airlines voluntarily disclosed some of the missed inspections last spring, and Southwest Airlines told the Wall Street Journal it did not expect any civil penalties to be imposed because of the self-disclosure.

But, even after the airline's disclosure, FAA inspectors assert that planes continued to fly, in some cases for more than a week, before inspections were complete. The airline "did not take immediate, corrective action," according to the congressional documents obtained by CNN.
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"That is wrong," said Oberstar. "When an aircraft is flying out of compliance with airworthiness directives, it is to be shut down and brought in for maintenance inspection. That's the law."

Southwest Airlines has never had a catastrophic crash. Federal investigators determined a 2005 incident at Midway airport in Chicago that killed one person on the ground was the result of pilot error, as was a 2000 incident at Burbank airport in California that seriously injured 2 passengers.

Lord Cadillac
03-06-08, 06:02 PM
This is the airline Danielle and I use all the time.. I think we're flying out to San Francisco on business next weekend... Wonderful..

Lord Cadillac
03-06-08, 06:04 PM
Another Federal farce. Just like the FDA, the FAA isn't protecting anything but their own wallets.

CadillacGurl
03-06-08, 06:06 PM
Yeah tell me about it. Jason just got me $200 southwest gift cards... frack....

dirt_cheap_fleetwood
03-06-08, 06:31 PM
They didn't crash did they? I see no problem here. :lol:

Spyder
03-06-08, 06:34 PM
No joke, they're still flying, right? How many times have you driven an "unsafe automobile"? Your windshield is cracked, you can't drive it or you'll die. More than likely its stupid piddly little things like that. Maybe one of the seat cushions wasn't buoyant enough. Because, we all know, if you crash in the ocean you're going to be worried about floating...

CadillacGurl
03-06-08, 06:55 PM
They didn't crash did they? I see no problem here. :lol:

No the worse thing is someone died at midway or something... it's listed on the bottom of the article

Southwest Airlines has never had a catastrophic crash. Federal investigators determined a 2005 incident at Midway airport in Chicago that killed one person on the ground was the result of pilot error, as was a 2000 incident at Burbank airport in California that seriously injured 2 passengers.

Night Wolf
03-06-08, 07:03 PM
No the worse thing is someone died at midway or something... it's listed on the bottom of the article

Southwest Airlines has never had a catastrophic crash. Federal investigators determined a 2005 incident at Midway airport in Chicago that killed one person on the ground was the result of pilot error, as was a 2000 incident at Burbank airport in California that seriously injured 2 passengers.

That was a ground incident caused by pilot error.... nothing mechanical about that.

dkozloski
03-06-08, 07:08 PM
In the view of the FAA; if the paperwork is not complete and correct the aircraft is unairworthy.

xshrpshtr
03-06-08, 09:30 PM
we need the goverment in charge of more stuff. They have proven to be the most proficient/efficient at everything they do. I think the government should run health care too. The government has nothing else to do. They are so on top of all thier other duties...

MauiV
03-06-08, 09:57 PM
Southwest is the only major US airline without a true "crash". The Midway incident was a pilot that overshot a runway that is too short anyway. He ran off the end a I think a child in a car was killed. No passenger casualties. Personally I stay away from Midway but that personal preference. I do like SWA however and have a very high opinion of their crews, especially compared to several other major players.

They keep refering to "737's". Well there are SEVERAL different series of 737's. The Aloha one was a 200 series. Today Southwest flys everything from 300 to 800 series. 737s are the most widely used aircraft in the US by air carriers.

CadillacGurl
03-06-08, 10:01 PM
Personally I stay away from Midway but that personal preference.

Really?? That surprises me. I love Midway, O'Hare to me is a nightmare.

MauiV
03-06-08, 10:11 PM
IMO Midway is too small of an airport with too little concrete and not nearly enough airspace, but thats just my personal/professional opinion. Trying to shove that many airplanes into 1 square mile isnt something I would want to be a part of.

They are the redheaded stepchild of O'Hare and IMO are treated as such. I havnt seen a lot of what they do, but what I have isnt fun.

gary88
03-06-08, 10:39 PM
O'Hare is 100x better than Midway.

CadillacGurl
03-06-08, 11:05 PM
O'Hare is 100x better than Midway.

To me O'Hare is confusing... I went there to meet my dad and there's like 4 separate terminals... plus the 2 hour blue line El ride left a scar... I bet if I went there again I'd get the hang of it. Honestly, Midway is set up similar to Pittsburgh so I think that's why its easier to me.

MauiV
03-06-08, 11:14 PM
I dont view it through passengers eyes. Im looking at a bigger picture.

dkozloski
03-07-08, 12:16 AM
I always went to Meigs until it disappeared in the middle of the night.

Sinister Angel
03-07-08, 01:22 AM
I always went to Meigs until it disappeared in the middle of the night.

Daley is a douche and needs to be taken care of.

thebigjimsho
03-07-08, 01:40 AM
No the worse thing is someone died at midway or something... it's listed on the bottom of the article

Southwest Airlines has never had a catastrophic crash. Federal investigators determined a 2005 incident at Midway airport in Chicago that killed one person on the ground was the result of pilot error, as was a 2000 incident at Burbank airport in California that seriously injured 2 passengers.How many here have ever flown out of Midway? It feels like you're flying into or out of a hockey rink.

thebigjimsho
03-07-08, 01:45 AM
Southwest is the only major US airline without a true "crash". The Midway incident was a pilot that overshot a runway that is too short anyway. He ran off the end a I think a child in a car was killed. No passenger casualties. Personally I stay away from Midway but that personal preference. I do like SWA however and have a very high opinion of their crews, especially compared to several other major players.

They keep refering to "737's". Well there are SEVERAL different series of 737's. The Aloha one was a 200 series. Today Southwest flys everything from 300 to 800 series. 737s are the most widely used aircraft in the US by air carriers.Most of the differences are in the length of the fuselage and engine type. No matter, I hate Boeing 737s and 757s. I haven't been on a 767 but I would like to try a 777.

I love JetBlue because they are efficient, clean and comfortable. I love that they use Airbuses almost exclusively. Airbuses are much wider and more comfortable. And when they don't use Airbuses they use the awesome new Embraer 100s. They don't cram you in, the seats are wide and comfortable and you stay entertained.

Jesda
03-07-08, 02:01 AM
The Airbus jets are fine, except for rudders that like to break into little pieces and send aircraft into the earth. They're quieter and more comfortable though, so your nosedive to the ground is a pleasant one.

Night Wolf
03-07-08, 05:30 AM
Most of the differences are in the length of the fuselage and engine type. No matter, I hate Boeing 737s and 757s. I haven't been on a 767 but I would like to try a 777.

I love JetBlue because they are efficient, clean and comfortable. I love that they use Airbuses almost exclusively. Airbuses are much wider and more comfortable. And when they don't use Airbuses they use the awesome new Embraer 100s. They don't cram you in, the seats are wide and comfortable and you stay entertained.

uhhhhh.... :alchi:

ewill3rd
03-07-08, 06:49 AM
I hate 737's, I won't fly on them anymore. I intentionally plan flights on just about any other type of aircraft.
737's are too loud and in level flight the nose is pitched up way too high, it drives me crazy.
I prefer Airbus and the MD-80 family of aircraft.
I always wanted to fly in a 777, but not yet. I have to fly to Russia later this year I think so who knows?

Southwest is awful, I have flown them several times. They are cheap and convenient. It doesn't surprise me that they don't follow FAA regulations for maintenance. I find it hard to believe that any sane pilot would ignore maintenance schedules, the ground crews must be playing games with the paperwork for the crews not to know what is going on.

Sure people drive unsafe cars all the time, thing is... when a car breaks down you don't plummet 30,000 feet and hit the ground at about 400 miles an hour, you usually just coast over to the side of the road.

Night Wolf
03-07-08, 07:54 AM
I hate 737's, I won't fly on them anymore. I intentionally plan flights on just about any other type of aircraft.
737's are too loud and in level flight the nose is pitched up way too high, it drives me crazy.
I prefer Airbus and the MD-80 family of aircraft.
I always wanted to fly in a 777, but not yet. I have to fly to Russia later this year I think so who knows?

Southwest is awful, I have flown them several times. They are cheap and convenient. It doesn't surprise me that they don't follow FAA regulations for maintenance. I find it hard to believe that any sane pilot would ignore maintenance schedules, the ground crews must be playing games with the paperwork for the crews not to know what is going on.

Sure people drive unsafe cars all the time, thing is... when a car breaks down you don't plummet 30,000 feet and hit the ground at about 400 miles an hour, you usually just coast over to the side of the road.

:::struggling to remain quiet:::

Well to each their own... hence the large amount of airline choices today :)

CIWS
03-07-08, 09:05 AM
Another Federal farce. Just like the FDA, the FAA isn't protecting anything but their own wallets.

Not always fair to generalize and blame an entire agency for the actions of individual inspectors, controllers,engineers, or technicians. However this sounds like a Management/Supervisory issue.

Despite what any Inspector told them, someone at Southwest made the decision to continue to fly those planes once the cracks had already been identified. It takes individuals to make good or bad decisions to make a difference. You would not want me to go into details of the things I have seen over the years that jeopardized the safety of the flying public. I am constantly amazed there is not more things that occur daily due to some of what I know. However this is almost certainly due to the fact that accidents seem to occur because several things go wrong at the same time/wrong time vs a single item being wrong at any given point.


Edit- video story on CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/03/06/southwest.planes/index.html#cnnSTCVideo

CadillacGurl
03-07-08, 10:11 AM
Personally, I'd rather fly in the Dick's Sporting Goods Corporate jet but I can't be picky :p

ewill3rd
03-07-08, 10:48 AM
I'd rather fly in something like an F15, but I don't have the budget for it!
:lol:

Actually the older I get the less I can stand to fly. I hate it.
If I have to do it, I'd rather not do it in a 737.
If your number comes up though... what can you do? I'd rather not have the airlines using me as a pair of dice though.

CadillacGurl
03-07-08, 10:57 AM
I'd rather fly in something like an F15, but I don't have the budget for it!
:lol:

Actually the older I get the less I can stand to fly. I hate it.
If I have to do it, I'd rather not do it in a 737.
If your number comes up though... what can you do? I'd rather not have the airlines using me as a pair of dice though.

:lol: so true... I actually looked into private plane rides (I have 3 store credit cards that give you a discount on private plane rides) and just daaaamn... $2k for a plane ride?!?! I'll stick to my southwest $59.50 thank you.

thebigjimsho
03-07-08, 12:53 PM
uhhhhh.... :alchi:


:::struggling to remain quiet:::

Well to each their own... hence the large amount of airline choices today :)And I suppose you'd think your 90's Town Car is far better than an '07?

Honestly, most Boeings suck ass. If I see an Airbus, MD-80, Embraer or almost any other jet(not regional), I'm happy. Unless it's a last ditch effort, I stay the hell away from Boeings.

thebigjimsho
03-07-08, 12:54 PM
Although, some airlines, like Spirit, stuff way too many rows in their planes. Your seat may be wide but you have zero knee room. And those are on Airbus A319s...

CIWS
03-07-08, 02:03 PM
Honestly, most Boeings suck ass. If I see an Airbus, MD-80, Embraer or almost any other jet(not regional), I'm happy. Unless it's a last ditch effort, I stay the hell away from Boeings.

Right after I got out of the Navy, I went to work for Boeing. We had a joke saying at the plant "If it's a Boeing, I'm not going" I could tell stories from that place too. But like I mentioned before it's usually the multiple problems coming together that cause accidents vs the individuals ones there every day.

gdwriter
03-07-08, 02:09 PM
Right after I got out of the Navy, I went to work for Boeing. We had a joke saying at the plant "If it's a Boeing, I'm not going" I could tell stories from that place too. But like I mentioned before it's usually the multiple problems coming together that cause accidents vs the individuals ones there every day.:yeah:

I think I'm the opposite of thebigjimsho. I hate those little regional jets and avoid MD-80s, too. Those things are noisy tin cans, even up front. In the back, the noise is horrible.

I've always been impressed with the engineering and ruggedness of Boeing planes.

WJ546BEps-M

MauiV
03-07-08, 03:50 PM
I hate Boeing 737s and 757s. I haven't been on a 767 but I would like to try a 777.

Airbuses are much wider and more comfortable. And when they don't use Airbuses they use the awesome new Embraer 100s.


I used to fly back and forth to Maui quite a bit and prefer a 767 over a 777 any day. I was usually traveling alone so an isle seat in the center section was perfect if I couldnt sweet talk my way to 1st class (the crews stayed at a hotel a 1/2 block from my house). The 767 only has 3 seats in the center so I would always have a couple sitting in the other 2 and they would always crawl over each other to get up. The 777 has a 5 seat center and is like sardines. The only time I took 737s on the long flight was Aloha from Orange County and it was in 1st so that makes quite a nice trip. 757 from Maui to Phoenix was absolute misery, just like the old days on a stretch 8. Its like riding in a cattle car.

I also usually try to book with Continental because the direct flight to Houston allows me to avoid LA and SFO and their Heavies all have personal entertainment consoles.

And I avoid Airbus whenever possible. I dont like plastic airplanes that fall out of the sky if the pilot shakes the rudder too hard. I worked with guys who were in the tower the day the Aloha landed with the roof missing. Even the Boeing engineers were amazed that aircraft made it in.

MauiV
03-07-08, 03:54 PM
:lol: so true... I actually looked into private plane rides (I have 3 store credit cards that give you a discount on private plane rides) and just daaaamn... $2k for a plane ride?!?! I'll stick to my southwest $59.50 thank you.


$25,000 one way from Maui to Vegas in a G5 or Global Express with Warren Buffets Quarter Share boys.

Anything smaller than a Challenger 60 just is a pain. Citation 750's are fast but still a tight fit.

MauiV
03-07-08, 03:58 PM
And I suppose you'd think your 90's Town Car is far better than an '07?

Honestly, most Boeings suck ass. If I see an Airbus, MD-80, Embraer or almost any other jet(not regional), I'm happy. Unless it's a last ditch effort, I stay the hell away from Boeings.

Know the best thing about getting an actual Boeing aircraft? Odds are that your flight crew have more than the 3 weeks experience like those in Embriers, CRJ's and such. If your on an RJ your crew doesnt have much stick time, or age in general. Give me a widebody Boeing whenever possible.

gary88
03-07-08, 05:29 PM
My flights to Poland are always on a 767 through LOT airlines. No complaints for an 11 hour flight. I'm 6'3", and the legroom isn't too bad. Though I usually get an isle seat so I can have extra room.

In October they're going to start adding 787s to their fleet, those should be interesting.

Spyder
03-07-08, 05:51 PM
Haven't found a plane yet that doesn't CRUSH my legs, neck, back and body in general. Never flown first class, but I'm willing to bet even they don't have quite enough room.

7'0", 275lbs.

Ranger
03-07-08, 06:15 PM
IMO Midway is too small of an airport with too little concrete and not nearly enough airspace, but thats just my personal/professional opinion. Trying to shove that many airplanes into 1 square mile isnt something I would want to be a part of.

They are the redheaded stepchild of O'Hare and IMO are treated as such. I havnt seen a lot of what they do, but what I have isnt fun.
Most commercial pilots cringe at the thought of landing at MDW as well.

ewill3rd
03-07-08, 08:07 PM
The MD-80 is okay but you are right, if you are between the engines it can be awful. It probably isn't the best but I prefer it over the noisy old 737.
I have flown in a few RJ 200's. Not too bad, a little cramped.

I like the airbus aircraft in that they seem to fly nicely and they are quiet and comfortable, however the whole fly by wire thing makes me pretty nervous. I'd prefer some mechanical backups.

I just become so hyper-aware of everything the plane is doing lately that I can't relax. I have to find something to concentrate on or my heart jumps up everytime we hit a bump or I hear something shift in the plane.
Not sure if I should reveal this, but I can't get up out of my seat when the plane is in flight, it freaks me out.
I have to plan my bathroom schedule out so I don't have to get up in flight and I won't drink anything until the plane starts to descend!!!
The flight attendants always look at me weird because I just sit there for an hour with my drink on the tray! :lol:

I guess I should mention that my ears are hyper sensitive to altitude changes and I have to be able to see out the window too... I have to see the ground... not the tops of the clouds below... not water... but the ground... while I am in flight.
I gotta get past this stuff too... I'll never make it to Russia and back twice at this rate!

xshrpshtr
03-07-08, 10:04 PM
Back in my paintball days. I got to fly 3 times in a guys private turbo prop. 9 seater. More like 6 with baggage. That was neat. You land and the rental cars are brought out to the plane. luggage unloaded and loaded for you. It was pretty cool.

Stoneage_Caddy
03-07-08, 10:49 PM
Glad i dont fly ....Most likely never will again

Inspections are there for a reason , every time that thing pressureizes and depresureizes and the alumium streches and grows ,then shrinks again.... eventually its going to crack ....and worst case suck a stewardess and a few passengers out dureing the snack run...on the way to terra firma

Or in the case of the dehavaland comet ....it comes completly apart and buries itself int he english countryside ...

Airbus is flying junk .....All fly by wire ....sure its great for military jets , but they can eject when windows crashes ....the airbus you and 200 of your new close freinds are about to be a closed casket ....

This is why i dont fly ....I step inside a aluminum tube of doom , not knowing for myself when the last time the fusealge was inspected , after having a few rounds of jose cuervo with the captian , then thinking about all the other stuff thats prolly pencil whipped so we can make another buck out of a peice of junk that was put into service before i was concived ...and if i do make it to my destination ill have gotten some sort of bird flu from the 700lb woman next to me that smells like the back of a trashtruck ...

CadillacGurl
03-07-08, 10:56 PM
Back in my paintball days. I got to fly 3 times in a guys private turbo prop. 9 seater. More like 6 with baggage. That was neat. You land and the rental cars are brought out to the plane. luggage unloaded and loaded for you. It was pretty cool.

That's like the Dick's private plane. Its sweet they bring up the cars with everything in them and we're off!

LS1Mike
03-07-08, 11:42 PM
Most commercial pilots cringe at the thought of landing at MDW as well.

I do not like that airport one bit!

Sinister Angel
03-08-08, 10:25 AM
I love teh SIDA badge..

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/24/66276067_124b291432.jpg

Florian
03-10-08, 12:15 AM
Ill take my 2 wheeler (BMW K1200LT) over a plane anyday...


F

xshrpshtr
03-10-08, 02:27 AM
must be refering to his walker
Ill take my 2 wheeler (BMW K1200LT) over a plane anyday...


F

Florian
03-10-08, 10:05 AM
must be refering to his walker

walker???? puh-leeze. Im not soft like you gunnies. :thehand:


F

dirt_cheap_fleetwood
03-10-08, 06:00 PM
We used to fly a little company called Independence Airline before they went under. They flew little jets that sat about 65 people and the service was amazing. They gave you a full size can of soda and a large bag of pretzels (like the size of a softball) instead of the little midget bags the size of a ping pong ball. They would also give you a hot, steamed towel at the end of the flight. It was a little un-nerving at landing because the jets were so low to the ground that on approach you felt like you were gonna smack the concrete, but the flight altogether made you feel like they wanted your business.

NOT ON MY WATCH
03-10-08, 08:04 PM
I love teh SIDA badge..

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/24/66276067_124b291432.jpg

So you work at an airport? Does that badge do anything for you at other airports?

ewill3rd
03-10-08, 08:36 PM
I used to love flying into Oakland, I'd always look out the window and see the water coming up and say "oh man, not another water landing!". Is that mean?
You are skimming the waves until you touch the runway usually when you fly in there.

I also heard them advertising a card that gets you through security faster. It is called "fly clear".
Basically you pay like $125 for processing and a background check and you can zip through security.
I guess it would be good if you fly a lot.
Seems it might only be available at some airports though... once I saw the fee I stopped reading.
I don't fly that much. I can wait in line for that much money. :lol:

Here is a list of participating airports:


Airports

Albany

Cincinnati

DC Dulles

DC Reagan

Denver

Indianapolis

Jacksonville

Little Rock

New York JFK

New York LGA

Newark

Oakland

Orlando

Reno

San Francisco

San JosÚ

Westchester

Jesda
03-10-08, 08:39 PM
LOL, those are all the airports I don't fly to. Perfect.

MauiV
03-10-08, 08:54 PM
saved from the infamous Little Rock security delays.

Sinister Angel
03-11-08, 12:39 AM
So you work at an airport? Does that badge do anything for you at other airports?

Used to work at the airport, and good chance I'll work there again this summer. As for the badge and other airports, no.

Night Wolf
03-11-08, 02:34 AM
We used to fly a little company called Independence Airline before they went under. They flew little jets that sat about 65 people and the service was amazing. They gave you a full size can of soda and a large bag of pretzels (like the size of a softball) instead of the little midget bags the size of a ping pong ball. They would also give you a hot, steamed towel at the end of the flight. It was a little un-nerving at landing because the jets were so low to the ground that on approach you felt like you were gonna smack the concrete, but the flight altogether made you feel like they wanted your business.

Heh... I know where some of those planes went after they left Independence :)

Sinister Angel
03-11-08, 11:21 AM
Didn't independence get eaten up by some larger outfit?