: Hi-Temp Header Coating



SkullV
03-02-08, 05:57 PM
Hey guys, I have a couple questions about the Kooks headers that I just ordered:

Do they come pre-coated?
Do I need to have them coated?
What are the advantages/disadvantages?
Is there anything I should know about the install that isn't in the FAQ?

Thanks a lot in advance for all of your responses!

rand49er
03-02-08, 07:02 PM
They don't come (normally) coated.

You don't have to have them coated; it's a cosmetic thing ... they look a little better through time. The stainless steel turns color just a bit, but then who looks down there anyway?!!

I believe it also has a heat insulating effect, too. This is why I wish I had gotten mine coated.

Disadvantage? The additional cost AND the 2-3 weeks longer before they arrive on your doorstep ... or, in your case, your dorm room. (j/k)

What's not in the FAQ instructions is the replacement of the dipstick tube in its hole on the passenger side of the block (<-- make SURE you carefully note where you pulled that sucker out from, 'cause it CAN be tricky ... I almost soiled my pants looking for it) and the fact that you need to remove one bolt from the steering linkage and swing it out of the way (<-- that one is a big nothing). Otherwise, Rick's instructions are fantastic. BTW, DO remove the spark plugs, and make sure you use anti-seize compound as appropriate (steel threads/bolts going into alum).

Geez, wish you were closer ... I could swing by and drink beer and answer questions. Seriously, though, pull your tools together, and you'll do fine. :thumbsup:

Oh, forgot, my forearms got torn up a bit getting into tight spaces, so make sure you have a few (dozen?) bandaids, too.

v10boost
03-02-08, 07:04 PM
swain tech coating in NY is only thing that is worth doing. Other coatings do not work. swaintech.com is true ceramic coating. i had it done on my 1500hp viper and it is best out there.

ctsv154
03-02-08, 07:05 PM
The coating is mainly to reduce temps. Keeps less heat from transferring into the engine bay.

ctsv154
03-02-08, 07:06 PM
swain tech coating in NY is only thing that is worth doing. Other coatings do not work. swaintech.com is true ceramic coating. i had it done on my 1500hp viper and it is best out there.

Hmm!! Any pics?!?!?

Sorry for the hijack but I think seeing a 1500hp Viper is worth it!

SkullV
03-02-08, 07:19 PM
Geez, wish you were closer ... I could swing by and drink beer and answer questions. Seriously, though, pull your tools together, and you'll do fine. :thumbsup:

I'll be doing the install at my parents house in Munster, Indiana...its a little closer to ya hahah...but anytime ANYONE on this forum wants to come drink with me...I'll make u feel like a college kid again! hahaha

So I shouldnt worry about the coating? I think that I'm getting the 1-3/4 headers (guess I should have asked when I gave Luke my card # :thepan:). Should I be worried about burning up break lines and spark plug wires?

Naf
03-03-08, 03:09 AM
The coating is mainly to reduce temps. Keeps less heat from transferring into the engine bay.

Hmm, ok mythbuster question here...

If you have headers and catback exhaust havent you reduced back pressure and the tendency to have heat transfer in the engine bay?

Also if i remember correctly SS retains more heat then Cast or MS

I would coat MS exhausts, (mild steel) but SS? Thats like me sayin lets put a hat over my beany hat.. Yes it will hold in more heat but the beany hat does 90% of the job the other 10% is meaninless...Unless you are a serious track junky runnin at darn close to max operatin temp...

Save the cash and buy your better halves something they would love...

Naf
03-03-08, 03:15 AM
Should I be worried about burning up break lines and spark plug wires?

Ah best solution for you on this...Get a set of DEI sparkplug covers and a set of Moroso sleeved wires Pn 73535...I love them and they brought nuttin but grins to my face...

SkullV
03-03-08, 08:02 PM
Alright, I got a set of Koolsox from Lingenfelter, Percy's Seal-4-Good gaskets for the header flange and the collector flange, Jack, Jack Stands, regular hand tools, torque wrench. Is there anything I'm missing? I am gonna leave the headers uncoated because well...they need to go in next week and I dont have time to get them coated. Sound good?

v10boost
03-04-08, 12:13 AM
Alright, I got a set of Koolsox from Lingenfelter, Percy's Seal-4-Good gaskets for the header flange and the collector flange, Jack, Jack Stands, regular hand tools, torque wrench. Is there anything I'm missing? I am gonna leave the headers uncoated because well...they need to go in next week and I dont have time to get them coated. Sound good?

If $ is not the problem, get them coated by swaintech coating in NY. it is really nice stuff.

v10boost
03-04-08, 12:16 AM
you already spent lot of money getting the headers, so spend little more and make it perfect. Most guys won't do it but it is well worth the satisfaction.

lunarx
03-04-08, 12:18 AM
If $ is not the problem, get them coated by swaintech coating in NY. it is really nice stuff.
I like your suggestion.
However, is there anyone on the west coast with an equivalent coating?
It will take forever to send my headers to NY and get them back.
That's a lot of down time on the car.

SkullV
03-04-08, 12:22 AM
If $ is not the problem, get them coated by swaintech coating in NY. it is really nice stuff.

The issue at this point is time. I am in college and our spring break is next week. That gives me ONE week to work on my car, and the headers probably wont even be there until Tuesday. My question is based PURELY on daily driving. As much as I would love to track the car, I cant afford it. I am doing the Lindsay track day mostly because I want to be a part of the biggest V gathering ever, but also because I want the rare opportunity to drive on a closed course. In your honest opinion do you think it would be worth me waiting all the way until summer to install the headers so that I can get them coated for a car that will normally be driven on normal streets?

Naf
03-04-08, 01:56 AM
The issue at this point is time. I am in college and our spring break is next week. That gives me ONE week to work on my car, and the headers probably wont even be there until Tuesday. My question is based PURELY on daily driving. As much as I would love to track the car, I cant afford it. I am doing the Lindsay track day mostly because I want to be a part of the biggest V gathering ever, but also because I want the rare opportunity to drive on a closed course. In your honest opinion do you think it would be worth me waiting all the way until summer to install the headers so that I can get them coated for a car that will normally be driven on normal streets?

Take my word for it, yo will be fine...I ran equal length headers on my Tahoe here all summer long and the heat factor wasnt a factor...Just make sure you have a high flow catback and you will be better...SWEAR...If anyone has a heat issue its me more then any one else...

BTW DO NOT WRAP YOUR HEADERS, i shall tell you why

The excessive heat fouls up your o2 sensors which would lead to them being changed more frequently. Wrap the exhaust after the catback if you wanted to. Now the benefits are controlled heat issues, and higher velocity of exhaust air, HOWEVER you will have to lug around that extra weight...

AAIIIC
03-04-08, 05:58 AM
swain tech coating in NY is only thing that is worth doing. Other coatings do not work. swaintech.com is true ceramic coating. i had it done on my 1500hp viper and it is best out there.
Do you have any tech to back up a statement like that? Swain Technology is certainly good stuff, and they have a great reputation (particularly for their piston and combustion chamber coatings), but they're not the only business that does metallic-ceramic coatings. Jet Hot (http://www.jet-hot.com/) has been around for decades, and there are a number of other companies that do metallic-ceramic coatings - HP Coatings (http://www.hpcoatings.com/products/heat.aspx#HPC), Airborn Coatings (http://www.airborncoatings.com/homepage.html), etc.


Hmm, ok mythbuster question here...

If you have headers and catback exhaust havent you reduced back pressure and the tendency to have heat transfer in the engine bay?
:confused: Go grab your one of your headers after you've been driving around a bit and tell us what you find. :devil: A freer-flowing exhaust doesn't magically change the fact that your headers radiate a lot of heat into the engine compartment.


Also if i remember correctly SS retains more heat then Cast or MS

I would coat MS exhausts, (mild steel) but SS? Thats like me sayin lets put a hat over my beany hat.. Yes it will hold in more heat but the beany hat does 90% of the job the other 10% is meaninless...Unless you are a serious track junky runnin at darn close to max operatin temp...
I'm about 99% positive that cast iron manifolds retain more heat than SS headers. Not sure about mild vs. stainless steel, but I would imagine the difference is pretty small. Your beanie hat statement just doesn't make any sense.


In your honest opinion do you think it would be worth me waiting all the way until summer to install the headers so that I can get them coated for a car that will normally be driven on normal streets?
While it certainly wouldn't hurt to get the headers coated, I don't think it's necessary. Corrosion resistance and thermal control are the two reasons to get headers coated. The former obviously isn't a concern since the headers are stainless, and the latter is just a matter of optimizing your setup on a street car. The metallic-ceramic coating would help a bit with heat reduction under the hood, but it really shouldn't be an issue for a street-driven car. I do agree with Naf that if you were tracking the car then getting them coated would make more sense.

I run uncoated aftermarket SS headers on one of my cars, and on my other car (open track prepped) I have Airborn coated long tube headers (which started out as chromed steel).

rand49er
03-04-08, 06:53 AM
... if you were tracking the car then getting them coated would make more sense. ...IMO, you're probably going to be okay, too. Using Koolsox (or equiv) and tying back all the nearby wires/tubes/etc should be sufficient.

BUT, Skull, you absolutely MUST be careful when removing the dipstick tube and remember where to put it back. Remember, in relation to the valve cover or sparkplug or any other fixed component, both the location and angle it goes back in. I went white as a sheet when I realized I couldn't just slip that sucker right back in. And, you cannot see down there! Seems like you could, but you can't! I used flashlights and shop lights from above, from below, and even took the passenger-side wheel/tire off ... no dice. Anyway, if it helps, just check this thread out:

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2004/76010-help-cant-find-dip-stick-hole.html


Good luck! (You're gonna love that new sound! ;))

Naf
03-04-08, 08:11 AM
I feel a Challenge is in order.

Now lets understand how a free flow exhaust keeps the temp lower then a restrictive one...

1. YES exhaust air is HOT
2. If too much back pressure is present then yes the exhaust system does get hotter then normal
A. If less back pressure is present then the HOT exhaust gas has less time to exchange to the exhaust system and radiate through the plumbing
B. A proper exhaust doesnt mean open all the way, you need a slight amount of back pressure for the cylinder to get that right amount of mixture so you have a proper burn
C. If the HOT exhaust Gas gets cold it loses its higher velocity, 1st grade science hot molecules move faster then cold molecules...
3. If you "grab" your headers after you run the car for a while, let me show you to your new soft room with nice soft walls, and this wonderful jacket that straps in the back...YOU NUTZ that has to be one of the worse ideas i ever heard in my life right after "hey, watch this" or Dumbass the movie...
Refer to 2-c for reference...

Now lets talk heat exchange...Cast is more prone to accept heat from the exhaust gas and transfer it to the air. Which means your engine compartment gets hot, lets not forget that the cast manifold has small holes and restricts the exhaust gases which amounts to higher transfer of heat to the manifold and ultimately to the engine compartment...
SS retains more heat and since they are aftermarket they have been engineered to expel the max amount of exhaust gases minimizin heat transfer and allowing for max gases velocity.

Here is a good question, can you cut cast with a torch? YES you can...Can you cut stainless with a torch? The answer is NO...

And the beanie hat metapfor works...Think winter, and retainin heat for your head...now put a another hat on top of the beanie hat, yes u will feel a bit warmer up top, but not as much as you initially did with the beanie hat...(beanie hats can also be called a sailers hat, woolie hat or Touke depending on where you are)

So next time Mr AAIIIC think before you speak, and do a little bit of research...

trukk
03-04-08, 01:00 PM
LOL, looks like it's on.

:food-snacking:

-Chris

SkullV
03-04-08, 02:34 PM
Someone finish the challenge by Monday! lol

Naf
03-04-08, 02:42 PM
Look Take my words for it, you dont need to spend the money on coatin...I live in the hottest country in the world, Stock i use to run a hot in traffic. The needle moved past the 212 mark to the next big line. When i swapped my headers to Gibson SS and an Escalade exhaust that needle never got above 212...

So take my advice and run with it...but dont forget the catback, Magnaflow is havin a sale from what i can read...

Enjoy the upgrade and dont listen to those rich kids, they are spoiled...and like to flash a lot of cash with coating, headlight fluid, and those funky shoulder pads you put on the seatbelts...

SkullV
03-04-08, 02:46 PM
Enjoy the upgrade and dont listen to those rich kids, they are spoiled...and like to flash a lot of cash with coating, headlight fluid, and those funky shoulder pads you put on the seatbelts...

Don't forget their Muffler Bearings!!

benelliwang
03-04-08, 02:53 PM
I live in Las Vegas, home of 100+ degrees temp for 4 months out the year. Coated headers make "little" difference in power or under hood temp. Yes there is a slight diff, but it doesn't seem to matter all that much. Coated headers on turbo cars however, makes a HUGE difference in spool response. So much so that I ceramic coated the entire plumbing and wrapped it to keep the heat in the pipes.

As far as keeping the engine cool, using 2/3 water and 1/3 anti-freeze however, made a huge difference in my CTS-v, Corvette, and STi. Using CTS-v for example, it was running 340 degrees in oil temp and 205 in coolant temp, and that's just putting around. With my new coolant mix, 160 degree thermostat, & tune to kick in the fans sooner, I am getting 200 oil and 170 coolant on a hot day. On cold days, I have to block my radiator to keep the engine warmed up.

Also, I see no difference in coating company. I've used local ceramic coating shops on my turbo cars without any issues.

Last, I've done countless head, cam, engine swaps on LSx cars....I've never had issues finding a hole to put my stick in!!!!

trukk
03-04-08, 03:22 PM
Look Take my words for it, you dont need to spend the money on coatin...I live in the hottest country in the world, Stock i use to run a hot in traffic. The needle moved past the 212 mark to the next big line. When i swapped my headers to Gibson SS and an Escalade exhaust that needle never got above 212...

So take my advice and run with it...but dont forget the catback, Magnaflow is havin a sale from what i can read...

Enjoy the upgrade and dont listen to those rich kids, they are spoiled...and like to flash a lot of cash with coating, headlight fluid, and those funky shoulder pads you put on the seatbelts...

IMO, it's not so much the heat going to the coolant or oil, it's toasting the wiring/starter, brakelines, etc. under there/near the headers. the OEM Manifolds have a big old heat shield to prevent that.

I'm glad I got mine coated. I'd be the frist to say if I think I got ripped, or didn't nead it. It's worth the extra bit of insurance in my book.

-Chris

crankedupforit
03-04-08, 04:30 PM
I agree with Chris. Exhaust gases run 1300 degrees and an exhaust manifold or header can run 800 to 1000 degrees. Manifolds are engineered to fit first then flow. Headers are designed to flow then fit. Headers are sometime a problem because of this. Fried do-dads under the hood are not that uncommon. Besides if you can operate those pipes at 100-300 degrees less, there must be a performance benefit. If the design of the car under the hood lends itself to good heat disapation, then maybe it's not a big deal, but when space is at a premium(that LS6 is a bit squeezed) I think keeping things cool is significant. My .02

Mike

lunarx
03-04-08, 04:41 PM
I agree with Chris. Exhaust gases run 1300 degrees and an exhaust manifold or header can run 800 to 1000 degrees. Manifolds are engineered to fit first then flow. Headers are designed to flow then fit. Headers are sometime a problem because of this. Fried do-dads under the hood are not that uncommon. Besides if you can operate those pipes at 100-300 degrees less, there must be a performance benefit. If the design of the car under the hood lends itself to good heat disapation, then maybe it's not a big deal, but when space is at a premium(that LS6 is a bit squeezed) I think keeping things cool is significant. My .02

Mike

Agreed.
I checked the other coating manufacturers mentioned and none look as dedicated to thermal management as the swain tech.
Most others appear to be more concerned w/ apperance (fancy colors) than thermal management.

Headers can glow under sustained WOT and I bet that's well over 1300 deg.

Unless someone has a better suggestion I'm leaning towards swain tech.

For all those saying heat is not an issue, see some of the crispy brake line threads, alternator wire arc welding threads & the clutch pedal stuck to floor threads.

benelliwang
03-04-08, 04:42 PM
I did one of these tests before.

I have one of these:http://www.ehobbies.com/rtkmt4.html

And on one of the firebird/camaro/corvette club meetings, I basically started lazing the cars in the meetings. Some are completely stock, some have coated headers, some have none-coated headers. Some drove in from the freeway, some drove in through city streets. Part for part, they are all pretty much at the same temperature.

lunarx
03-04-08, 04:47 PM
I did one of these tests before.

I have one of these:http://www.ehobbies.com/rtkmt4.html

And on one of the firebird/camaro/corvette club meetings, I basically started lazing the cars in the meetings. Some are completely stock, some have coated headers, some have none-coated headers. Some drove in from the freeway, some drove in through city streets. Part for part, they are all pretty much at the same temperature.

Did you measure in a moving car under sustained WOT?
Parking lot measurements are meaningless.
About as usefull as measuring brake rotor temps in the paddock.

rand49er
03-04-08, 04:53 PM
I feel a Challenge is in order.

Now lets understand how a free flow exhaust keeps the temp lower then a restrictive one...

1. YES exhaust air is HOT
2. If too much back pressure is present then yes the exhaust system does get hotter then normal
A. If less back pressure is present then the HOT exhaust gas has less time to exchange to the exhaust system and radiate through the plumbing
B. A proper exhaust doesnt mean open all the way, you need a slight amount of back pressure for the cylinder to get that right amount of mixture so you have a proper burn
C. If the HOT exhaust Gas gets cold it loses its higher velocity, 1st grade science hot molecules move faster then cold molecules...
3. If you "grab" your headers after you run the car for a while, let me show you to your new soft room with nice soft walls, and this wonderful jacket that straps in the back...YOU NUTZ that has to be one of the worse ideas i ever heard in my life right after "hey, watch this" or Dumbass the movie...
Refer to 2-c for reference...

Now lets talk heat exchange...Cast is more prone to accept heat from the exhaust gas and transfer it to the air. Which means your engine compartment gets hot, lets not forget that the cast manifold has small holes and restricts the exhaust gases which amounts to higher transfer of heat to the manifold and ultimately to the engine compartment...
SS retains more heat and since they are aftermarket they have been engineered to expel the max amount of exhaust gases minimizin heat transfer and allowing for max gases velocity.

Here is a good question, can you cut cast with a torch? YES you can...Can you cut stainless with a torch? The answer is NO...

And the beanie hat metapfor works...Think winter, and retainin heat for your head...now put a another hat on top of the beanie hat, yes u will feel a bit warmer up top, but not as much as you initially did with the beanie hat...(beanie hats can also be called a sailers hat, woolie hat or Touke depending on where you are)

So next time Mr AAIIIC think before you speak, and do a little bit of research...This is a total bunch of meaningless gobbly-gook. :helpless:

benelliwang
03-04-08, 05:03 PM
Did you measure in a moving car under sustained WOT?
Parking lot measurements are meaningless.
About as usefull as measuring brake rotor temps in the paddock.

I measured them as they pulled in to the parking lot, so are you saying the coated and uncoated headers will cool down to the the same temperature within 15 seconds that the car is shut off? Because that is what the data is showing.

lunarx
03-04-08, 06:00 PM
I measured them as they pulled in to the parking lot, so are you saying the coated and uncoated headers will cool down to the the same temperature within 15 seconds that the car is shut off? Because that is what the data is showing.
It's not like the cars were at sustained WOT 15 sec before you measured them.
Also, the temp will drop from peak very quickly.
The parking lot data is inconclusive.

A better test in my opinion would be heat at 1" distance away from the headers during sustained WOT.
Few people have the ability to measure this, so we are kind of stuck with having to accept the claims that coating companies make.
They claim a 300-400 deg reduction in radiated heat (at ?? EGT temp).
It's possible coating is BS, but untill real tests are conductued it could be argued either way.

benelliwang
03-04-08, 09:22 PM
It's not like the cars were at sustained WOT 15 sec before you measured them.
Also, the temp will drop from peak very quickly.
The parking lot data is inconclusive.

A better test in my opinion would be heat at 1" distance away from the headers during sustained WOT.
Few people have the ability to measure this, so we are kind of stuck with having to accept the claims that coating companies make.
They claim a 300-400 deg reduction in radiated heat (at ?? EGT temp).
It's possible coating is BS, but untill real tests are conductued it could be argued either way.

Well, there actually is data regarding this from a reputable place: Hot Rod Magazine. They did a modified LS2 on the 2006 Dec issue. Here is their data of power gains coated vs uncoated headers:
2000-3300 rpm, it dropped -1 hp and -2 torque.
3400-4800 gained 2.3 hp and 1.6 torque.
4900-6300 rpm it gained 0.5 hp and 0.5 torque.
Max HP and Torque with coated headers are 553.4 hp and 541 tq.
Max with uncoated headers are 550.9 hp and 541.6 tq.
You gain 2.5 hp and loose 0.6 torque.

They did see 200 degree differences in temperature in max WOT and dropping down very fast to same temp right after that.

As far as sustained WOT runs... One night in Vegas at the track, I did 6 back to back 1/4 mile, the temp was about 95 degrees at 12:40 am and it was a LS1 corvette with 400 rwhp. My time sucked due to street tires and mostly driver error, me. But my headers didn't glow, and my wires did not burn, my clutch didn't stick to the floor, my brakes didn't boil, and my starters were fine. The engine was warm with 210 degree oil temp but it cooled down pretty fast and I drove home ok. Car soon got a set of coated headers because I thought it would cool down better just so I can squeeze extra power out of it. But the dyno runs, 1/4 mile times, and daily driving performance didn't make a difference.

So for N/A I would buy coated headers only if there is a sale or if I want a clean, un-rusted look.

Last, I COATED My NEW HEADERS on the said corvette and the complete exhaust set up. They are even wrapped to retain even more heat in the pipes. But the reason was not to keep my engine cool or keep them looking good, but to keep my turbos spooled as soon as possible...

lunarx
03-04-08, 11:20 PM
Nice info.
However lets exclude 12 sec 1/4 mile runs from the extended WOT category.

Anything short of:

Doing 120++ to/from Vegas
Discovering your 160+ MPH top speed
Running a 25 minute road course event

Is not extended WOT.

As you can see, the above mentioned events last a great deal longer than 12 sec.
Since none of us ever do any of them, header coating is effectively pointless.

It's possible different coatings could do better than a 200 deg reduction.

Which coatings were tested?

SkullV
03-04-08, 11:26 PM
See, now you guys have me worried again! I will be running six 20 min sessions at the V track day May 9. I am only being cautious because I dont want to burn something up and void my warranty....

FIVEOH!!!
03-04-08, 11:32 PM
So I am guessing from all this discussion.. If you want peace of mind... Do it. If you dont care.. Don't . I got it!

SkullV
03-04-08, 11:35 PM
So I am guessing from all this discussion.. If you want peace of mind... Do it. If you dont care.. Don't . I got it!

I am really just trying to get as many opinions as possible before I make a decision. The headers should arrive Monday-Tuesday so I have until then to decide.

AAIIIC
03-04-08, 11:58 PM
This is a total bunch of meaningless gobbly-gook. :helpless:
:yup: Glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks so.


So next time Mr AAIIIC think before you speak, and do a little bit of research...
Oh, the irony... :helpless: To finish off such a worthless post by telling me to do some research is pretty funny.


I feel a Challenge is in order.
I guess I missed what the Challenge is. Is it to prove you don't know what you're talking about? Or is it to determine why you think Challenge should be capitalized?


Now lets [sic] understand how a free flow exhaust keeps the temp lower then a restrictive one...

1. YES exhaust air [sic] is HOT
2. If too much back pressure is present then yes the exhaust system does get hotter then normal
A. If less back pressure is present then the HOT exhaust gas has less time to exchange to the exhaust system and radiate through the plumbing
So, how much faster is the exhaust flowing through your headers and exhaust? Can you quantify this for us? Are we talking a 1% difference in flow velocity? 50%?

And aren't aftermarket headers long tubes? So that means the exhaust has farther to flow compared to the OEM shorties, right? So does the exhaust "air" get to the cats sooner with the aftermarket long tube headers than it would flowing through the shorter stock headers/manifolds?


C. If the HOT exhaust Gas gets cold it loses its higher velocity, 1st grade science hot molecules move faster then cold molecules...
Well, I'll give you credit here. You must have attended a pretty amazing school system if you were discussing molecular energy levels in 1st grade! :eek: But how does that comment prove that headers and a high flow exhaust reduce heat transfer in the engine compartment? :confused:


B. A proper exhaust doesnt mean open all the way, you need a slight amount of back pressure for the cylinder to get that right amount of mixture so you have a proper burn
Really? Wow, so I guess those NASCAR, F1, Top Fuel NHRA, CART/IRL, DTM, etc etc guys are all doing it wrong by running open headers. Those idiots!!! If only they listened to the wisdom of Naf and realized that an "open all the way" exhaust is actually costing them power, that they need some of that ever-so-famous-mythical-internet exhaust backpressure. :rolleyes:


Here is a good question, can you cut cast with a torch? YES you can...Can you cut stainless with a torch? The answer is NO...
I don't know what your definition of a "torch" is, but a plasma torch will cut through stainless without any problems.


And the beanie hat metapfor works...Think winter, and retainin heat for your head...now put a another hat on top of the beanie hat, yes u will feel a bit warmer up top, but not as much as you initially did with the beanie hat
My point is that throwing out 90% and 10% numbers was nothing more than a SWAG and thus didn't make any sense.

v10boost
03-05-08, 12:06 AM
reducing under hood temp is always good thing. What about coolant temp difference? Will 200degrees make difference in rubber and other parts?

benelliwang
03-05-08, 01:32 AM
Nice info.
However lets exclude 12 sec 1/4 mile runs from the extended WOT category.

Anything short of:

Doing 120++ to/from Vegas
Discovering your 160+ MPH top speed
Running a 25 minute road course event

Is not extended WOT.


You are right, I would agree with you on regular 1/4 mile runs, there is too much cooling in between runs.

But, this case was special, it was around midnight, the track was closing in less then 5 minutes and most people has left. So 3 or 4 of us were literally, doing 1/4 miles runs, turn around, run again. The car literally did not stop or shut off in those runs.

And the said Corvete did do multiple 180+ mph runs to/from vegas at a "private" track :shhh::bouncy:

Ultimately, do what makes you feel good. I've bought/done plenty of mods that did not gain power or made sense at the time. But I've done it none the less:alchi:

lunarx
03-05-08, 02:55 AM
Gota love those runs on "private tracks".
It must be nice to let a TT Vette stetch it's legs.

I don't know about the Vette, but the V does have 2-3 documented header heat issues.
They are easily resolved and coating alone would not fix them.
Header Wrap might, but most feel that's bad.

My plan is to relocate and/or insulate any lines or wiring within 1 inch of headers.
Some 1-2 inch away items have my attention also, but maybe coating will be adequate to bring the 1"+ temps under control.

That's how I justify it anyways. :D

benelliwang
03-05-08, 03:09 AM
LOL good justifications.

Sometimes, it is the design of the headers. The builders just don't seem to care some times, I've seen headers hang 2 inches from the ground, somehow the brake lines actually touch the headers, the O2 bungs are so screwed up that you actually need to unbolt headers to remove sensor, AIR tube breaking off after 6 months, header leaks, etc...

Naf
03-05-08, 04:11 AM
Well we know you can pick and peck on information placed infornt of you...

Compare apples to apples...NHRA NASCAR are entities that look for max peak power at high RPMs, they dont care about lowend torque or milage...and drivability...They are in a completely differnt field.

The maclaren F1 has a 627hp engine in it. the engineers used gold foil as a heat reflectant, but the titanium headers are uncoated...This is a super car, and they didnt coat.

I read an article in High performance mag...They were doing exhaust mods on a vehicle. They installed straight pipes, H pipe, and ran the engine with just the headers. The straight pipes made 15hp less then the H pipe and the open headers made 5hp less then the H pipe.

Here is a thought, since coatin is inexpensive why dont more companies offer it as part of the package? Why dont we coat our heads, block and pistons? It will reduce operatin temp, and reduce the affects of detonation...Its an option we really dont need, its a luxury yes, but not a necessity.

I use the torch cuttin as a sim for how the material reacts to excessive heat...Your exhaust temp has a certain temp it should be at and how the material reacts to it dictates its expansion, fatige, and heat retaintion.

crankedupforit
03-05-08, 10:41 AM
I measured them as they pulled in to the parking lot, so are you saying the coated and uncoated headers will cool down to the the same temperature within 15 seconds that the car is shut off? Because that is what the data is showing.


Heat resistant coating has been a legitimate industry for decades and not only in automotive applications but aerospace, HVC and military as well. To claim it doesn't work is just naive. No offense, but your $99 device probably doesn't stack up to all the empirical data that has been collected over the years. Now to claim there is no performance benefit from coatings is another issue. I believe in some cases the benefit is minimal at best, although engines that are operating for long periods of time at the upper end of their power range and generating alot of heat may see performance improvements.

benelliwang
03-05-08, 12:05 PM
Heat resistant coating has been a legitimate industry for decades and not only in automotive applications but aerospace, HVC and military as well. To claim it doesn't work is just naive. No offense, but your $99 device probably doesn't stack up to all the empirical data that has been collected over the years. Now to claim there is no performance benefit from coatings is another issue. I believe in some cases the benefit is minimal at best, although engines that are operating for long periods of time at the upper end of their power range and generating alot of heat may see performance improvements.

Read my other posts, didn't say coating didn't work at all. As matter of fact, coating works wonders on my twin turbo set up. But for N/A purposes on our car, there is little to gain in performance or reducing heat form the engine bay.

So here is my retort:
My post has been a legitimate post for 2days. To claim one of my post doesn't work is just naive. No offense, but your 99 second post probably doesn't stack up to all the empirical post lunarx and I have been posting over the days.:alchi:

crankedupforit
03-05-08, 01:13 PM
Just so I understand this correctly, you claim your parking lot experiment with your hobby thermometer is definitive proof that coatings don't work? Just what was the point you were trying to make? The parking lot experiment seems to say that the coatings don't work, yet your other posts claim they do on a turbo car. If there's a point here you haven't done a very good job of making it. Either coatings run cooler or they don't. Just what is it your telling us?

benelliwang
03-05-08, 02:31 PM
Just so I understand this correctly, you claim your parking lot experiment with your hobby thermometer is definitive proof that coatings don't work? Just what was the point you were trying to make? The parking lot experiment seems to say that the coatings don't work, yet your other posts claim they do on a turbo car. If there's a point here you haven't done a very good job of making it. Either coatings run cooler or they don't. Just what is it your telling us?

I guess my little retort joke may have come across as bad, it was a joke dude.

The original question here was does Kooks headers need to be coated and what are the advantages/disadvantages? And I gave him my honest answer from my experience with working on LS1, LS2, LS6 cars since 1998.

Will it give you more power? Not really. A 550 HP LS2 gained only 2hp, and lost torque, you think a mildly moded LS2 will gain more?

Will it keep the engine bay cooled? No because we don't run WOT for more then a few seconds at a time. Test shows that it is cooler by 200 degrees at sustained WOT applications and the key word is "sustained", like an engine room with the engine at WOT for more then 30 seconds. Or on a Bonneville Salt Lakes Top Speed car who may be doing WOT for several minutes with headers glowing read hot. As soon as you are off the throttle, both coated headers and non-coated headers cool rapidly. You can use a million dollar thermometer or a hobby thermometer and see not much differences on our daily operating temperate.

I mentioned it worked in turbo LS1/6/2 cars because of its application: make the turbos spool sooner. Go back to my posts; Iíve never said anything regarding the coating not working. Iíve always said for the application of a N/A car living most of its life on the streets, it doesnít really benefit from coating as it doesnít do much. But if you are a professional race car driver who lives life 1/4 mile at a time, do it by all means. Or if you don't want to see rusted headers or discolored headers, get it coated.

You seem to be stuck on my ďhobbyĒ thermometer, but please take a look at my other posts. Iíve mentioned a reputable magazine of 60 years doing tests on LS2ís with no gain to speak of. You seem to ignore my repeated runs at the track, dyno statements, and daily driving experiences. Iíve ran my LS1 corvette several times on extended WOT runs well north of 170 mph with and without Nitrous, and the uncoated headers did just fine. Also, many people mentioned some high end racing series without coated heaters. Of all cars, these ones should need headers since they tend to run WOT most of the timeÖ But why don't they use it? Maybe 1600 degrees is not hot compared to what jets or other heavy machines run?

So how about we cool down, speak our experience and try not to call names and make fun of our toys.

korizzle
03-05-08, 03:56 PM
lives life 1/4 mile at a time


:histeric:

crankedupforit
03-05-08, 07:00 PM
I guess my little retort joke may have come across as bad, it was a joke dude.

The original question here was does Kooks headers need to be coated and what are the advantages/disadvantages? And I gave him my honest answer from my experience with working on LS1, LS2, LS6 cars since 1998.

Will it give you more power? Not really. A 550 HP LS2 gained only 2hp, and lost torque, you think a mildly moded LS2 will gain more?

Will it keep the engine bay cooled? No because we don't run WOT for more then a few seconds at a time. Test shows that it is cooler by 200 degrees at sustained WOT applications and the key word is "sustained", like an engine room with the engine at WOT for more then 30 seconds. Or on a Bonneville Salt Lakes Top Speed car who may be doing WOT for several minutes with headers glowing read hot. As soon as you are off the throttle, both coated headers and non-coated headers cool rapidly. You can use a million dollar thermometer or a hobby thermometer and see not much differences on our daily operating temperate.

I mentioned it worked in turbo LS1/6/2 cars because of its application: make the turbos spool sooner. Go back to my posts; Iíve never said anything regarding the coating not working. Iíve always said for the application of a N/A car living most of its life on the streets, it doesnít really benefit from coating as it doesnít do much. But if you are a professional race car driver who lives life 1/4 mile at a time, do it by all means. Or if you don't want to see rusted headers or discolored headers, get it coated.

You seem to be stuck on my ďhobbyĒ thermometer, but please take a look at my other posts. Iíve mentioned a reputable magazine of 60 years doing tests on LS2ís with no gain to speak of. You seem to ignore my repeated runs at the track, dyno statements, and daily driving experiences. Iíve ran my LS1 corvette several times on extended WOT runs well north of 170 mph with and without Nitrous, and the uncoated headers did just fine. Also, many people mentioned some high end racing series without coated heaters. Of all cars, these ones should need headers since they tend to run WOT most of the timeÖ But why don't they use it? Maybe 1600 degrees is not hot compared to what jets or other heavy machines run?

So how about we cool down, speak our experience and try not to call names and make fun of our toys.

No worries dude, I'm cool. Just saying that alot of us on this forum track our cars and don't live 1/4 mile at a time. There are so many guys here on this forum that run the V in it's peak power band for long periods of time on a road course, that coatings are worth a look. I'm not suggesting anyone is making a mistake not getting headers coated. What I am saying is that there is a potential benefit for certain drivers and if they feel like dropping the coin on a Jet Hot coat they should. The only problem I had with your post was that it was a little too directed to your own observations and experiences and didn't consider the way other guys might benefit. Stay cool Bro.

benelliwang
03-05-08, 07:39 PM
Different world, different experience I guess. I've seen people at the Spring Mountain motorsports park doing track days on LSx cars and have absolutely no issues with un-coated headers. Other then Arizona, I can't think of any place that is hotter than Vegas in the summertime. And yet people I know with LSx motors, I mean lots of them, never had any issues with hot, uncoated headers melting or messing other stuff up. And many of the cars I mentioned are buttom feeders (Fireturd, CamEro, Corvettes), meaning we can't even get air from the front grill.

I have people meting spark plug wires but it was due to installation error.
Him: "Yo mang I got this $200 spark plug wires that will gimme 20 hp yo, but it melted! I thought my mad tyte SLP headers are coated!"
Me: "You redneck dumbass, the wire is angled and you are letting it touching the header. Rotate it a little so it wont' touch."
Him: "Rotate for the win!":helpless:

crankedupforit
03-06-08, 05:53 PM
It's all good man. I see your point, but let me just leave this out there to think about. Every major race category from NHRA, Formula 1, Circle track, LeMans and supercar manufacturers have and continue to use heat resistant coatings on their exhaust systems and engines parts. Now this doesn't mean that everyone should run out and get it. As you pointed out, some drivers never get a benefit from the lower temperatures. I think your right about that. That being said I think heat soak is one of the most performance robbing factors we come across. As soon as you open the hood to measure the temp on a header you've spoiled the real temperature under the hood and any measurements you take are meaningless. Same thing on a dyno. No way a dyno can simulate whats going on temp wise with air flow and heat soak under the hood when your racing your car down the track. That's why they use that big ass fan to try to get some effect of a moving car. The truth is that NHRA players go to great lengths to battle heat soak. Remember fuel cool cans and huge ducted induction systems? Road racers are in the same boat. Heat is the enemy. So just because someone doesn't use coatings and they get acceptable performance from their cars, doesn't mean that there is no benefit from using coatings. No one has to apologize because they didn't coat their headers. It's just a tweak that in some cases can benefit performance.