: 2009 Price vs. M3\C63???



Nivek
02-26-08, 04:44 PM
I see Mercedes finally released the US pricing for the C63 today and it comes in at the same as the M3 sedan at $53,800. In fact the C63 base comes in lower than the outgoing C55 base. You can option the M3 into the mid 60s pretty quick and MBUSA does not have the build feature up yet for C63, but I expect them same.

I know there are views both ways on what the CTS competes with, but technically the CTS, 3 and C are all entry level for their brands. If the 2009 V comes in much higher than the above, it will lose sales. M and AMG still have the perception on their side and the above pricing looks like a steal for the performance you get.

I want a 2009 CTS-V, but not at $70,000+. It needs to be fully loaded at $65,000, maybe a little less.

StealthCTSVJJL
02-26-08, 04:54 PM
Iam pretty sure there will be short list of options on the V, auto tranny, recaros, maybe sunroof. So it will pretty much be loaded already and minimal price increase fully loaded. The M3 and C63 pretty much come with keys as standard equipment, everything else is optional. I suppose this is good if you are looking for a very fast stripper car, but good luck finding one without 10k in options at you local dealer. Remember the V is much bigger and will clearly be quicker and faster than either of those two cars (maybe the C63 will be close), so there shouldn't be a problem selling them, especially with the auto trans. That said, Cadillac needs to do a strong advertising campaign perhaps even showing it pulling away from the M5 and E55 to drive hiome the fact that it is quicker, they also need to do this in it's first year of production, before the next gen twin turbo V-10 M5 and the next gen supercharged E55!

dqw1
02-26-08, 04:57 PM
The V has everything it requires to compete but now it's all up to the pricing.

Cadillac Tony
02-26-08, 05:09 PM
The 3 series and C-class are tiny cars compared to the CTS. It may be Cadillac's entry level car, but it's comparable in size to the 5 and E-Class, but is priced at the 3 and C-Class level. Optioning an M5 with the options that come standard on a CTS-V (like rear airbags, intelligent high beams, iPod hookups, Satellite radio and lumbar support) put the MSRP at $91,980.

The question is not whether the CTS-V is worth the same money as an M3- the question is "Is an M5 worth $21,000 more than a CTS-V?" That questions will be easy to answer once the performance numbers for the CTS-V hit the magazines.

BowenCT
02-26-08, 05:29 PM
And that folks, is why we like to keep Tony around! :thumbsup:

b4z
02-26-08, 06:15 PM
Umm, if the V wants to be the fastest sedan in the World it needs to 0-60 in less than 4.1 because I just saw a mag reporting that number for the M3 sedan(not the coupe). Frankly I don't know how BMW can't get a 414 hp to rip off a time like that. Unless all 414 hp is making it to the rear wheels, and even then.......

Nivek
02-26-08, 06:35 PM
The question is not whether the CTS-V is worth the same money as an M3- the question is "Is an M5 worth $21,000 more than a CTS-V?"

I would like to hear Kate Walsh do the above line and stare at me:bouncy:

I fully expect the V to beat the M5, E63 and S6. I also agree with what people say about the size of the car. It is a 5 series size for a 3 series price and lets keep it that way. It seems like a loaded V in 2007 was around $52,000 and now some are talking around $70,000 for the 2009. Great for you, but bad for me :(

CIWS
02-26-08, 07:09 PM
MB will more than likely charge you 6-7,000 dollars just to put the AMG package on their AMG. Their AMG cars base price only includes the base car and the engine. Everything else is an add on, including applicable AMG packages.

NormV
02-26-08, 07:13 PM
Kate Walsh wouldn't have to say to look my way! :)

Lutz' will be the first to stand up and after the fact admit they were wrong.

My buddy was following me in his C32 AMG and would actually gain by mid turn, but coming out of the turn the extra power would pull away again. And he had an extra person. Smaller and light both the C and 3 are which means better handling. But it is the over all package that makes the car fast on the road course, just not straight line speed.

We'll soon see!


Norm

Katshot
02-26-08, 09:35 PM
It seems like a loaded V in 2007 was around $52,000 and now some are talking around $70,000 for the 2009.

That is one point that will be hard for Cadillac to deal with. Hell of a jump for a model update IMO.

thebigjimsho
02-26-08, 09:46 PM
Umm, if the V wants to be the fastest sedan in the World it needs to 0-60 in less than 4.1 because I just saw a mag reporting that number for the M3 sedan(not the coupe). Frankly I don't know how BMW can't get a 414 hp to rip off a time like that. Unless all 414 hp is making it to the rear wheels, and even then.......An 8000+ redline will help do that. If you can produce an effective torque curve all the way to that high redline, that helps. It also keeps 0-60 runs to one shift, from 1-2...

NormV
02-26-08, 11:23 PM
C63 is faster than an 07 Vette eclipsing the C6 by .2-.3 in both to 60 MPH and 1/4 mile according to C&D. Don't think the bavarian burner will let up at higher speeds either. The C63 makes 20-30 hp/trq and weighs about 500-600 lbs. Looks like V2 has it's work cut out for it!

For the real kicker....it's MSRP is the same as the Vette @ $54,6XX! Hmmm...decisions, decisions....Hey Stealth!!!! What is nice about the Europeans is that they usually have better residuals compared to the domestics. :)

Norm

thebigjimsho
02-27-08, 12:50 AM
Whatever, it still loses to the M3 according to C&D. Take away the bad launches of the V1, add 150hp and a wider track and wider tires and better shocks and extra nanny controls and the V2 will be that much better of a car than the V1. Might not feel lighter, but it will be much faster.

Faster than a C63. Maybe not from a launch, but close. Then, bye bye C63. And I'm guessing the launches will be better.

CIWS
02-27-08, 12:26 PM
C63 is faster than an 07 Vette eclipsing the C6 by .2-.3 in both to 60 MPH and 1/4 mile according to C&D.
Norm


Shouldn't you be making your comparisons to an 08 vette (which you could buy months ago), since the C63 is an 08 model ?

NormV
02-27-08, 01:00 PM
Shouldn't you be making your comparisons to an 08 vette (which you could buy months ago), since the C63 is an 08 model ?

Gotcha! LS3 in 08 matches C63 but is $3,000 more expensive than the C63. C6 is still slower according to R&T.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=123805

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/112_0709_2008_chevrolet_corvette

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=31&article_id=6172

Looks skunk works is already in progress:

http://mbworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=227073

Norm

CIWS
02-27-08, 02:30 PM
Gotcha! LS3 in 08 matches C63 but is $3,000 more expensive than the C63. C6 is still slower according to R&T.


Norm

How can you say it's 3K more expensive when full pricing with options hasn't been released yet for the C63 ? Every AMG costs at least 5-7K more just to add the "AMG package" on to the car, much less anything else. I think you're a bit premature to be comparing costs until you can get full pricing info on the C63.

Evidently their stock performance is close enough the driver would probably make the difference. But I'm still kinda curious why you're comparing a sedan to a coupe in the first place.

NormV
02-27-08, 02:40 PM
Ok, base to base is $4K since the c6 has opt exhaust.

Why sacrifice in a sports car when you can have more luxurious and two doors. Not any more!


Norm

verbs
02-27-08, 04:53 PM
An 8000+ redline will help do that. If you can produce an effective torque curve all the way to that high redline, that helps. It also keeps 0-60 runs to one shift, from 1-2...

It's not just that simple, I guarantee you that the M3 is geared to hell in 1st gear to make up for the lack of torque down low....and that will offset somewhat the ability to hold shifts longer from the higher redline...

thebigjimsho
02-27-08, 06:18 PM
It's not just that simple, I guarantee you that the M3 is geared to hell in 1st gear to make up for the lack of torque down low....and that will offset somewhat the ability to hold shifts longer from the higher redline...Of course it's not that simple, but it's a factor. As for M3 vs C63, I ask you to look at the acceleration times from 0-150. After the quick jump the C63 musters, their numbers are almost identical well into triple digits...

Jpjr
02-27-08, 06:43 PM
The reason I think the V needs to be priced at the M3 level is because the German M3's have generally superior drivetrain technology. The engines perform better (not just a monster truck engine in a sedan) and the tranny is waaaaay better. At least from what I have driven. The M3 is all around funner to drive and therefore demands a performance premium. The V will be much more agile than before but will get carved up by an M3, which matters a lot to people who don't buy sedans for straight line performance.

All this said, the V is a bargain to the M5. But, I think M5's are simply a ripoff and are not a great comp if Caddy is looking to increase sales.

HITMONEY
02-27-08, 07:16 PM
The reason I think the V needs to be priced at the M3 level is because the German M3's have generally superior drivetrain technology. The engines perform better (not just a monster truck engine in a sedan) and the tranny is waaaaay better. At least from what I have driven. The M3 is all around funner to drive and therefore demands a performance premium. The V will be much more agile than before but will get carved up by an M3, which matters a lot to people who don't buy sedans for straight line performance.

All this said, the V is a bargain to the M5. But, I think M5's are simply a ripoff and are not a great comp if Caddy is looking to increase sales.


So you have driven an 09 V..? Cool.


M3 carves up a v.. ? Thats a strong claim.

M3 runs a straight 0-100-0 while CTS-V runs the 0-100 through a slalom

GSWm1RH0NCI

Katshot
02-28-08, 09:36 AM
Fun to watch but we all "should" realize that a video is NOT a solid way to prove a point like this. Too many ways it can be "fixed" to show the desired outcome.
That said, I have a hard time believing that an M3 would in any way "carve-up" a V1. I think after experiencing the two drivetrains, the M3 DOES prove to be the more refined of the two but you have to remember that BMW has had a long time to refine it, whereas the CTS-V was just the very first attempt by Cadillac to play in that arena. So far, it looks like GM may have chiseled most if not all the CTS-V's sharp edges, and in so doing, may have molded a car that while having the power of a muscle car, may also have the manners of a refined road car. We'll see in a few months.

HiTechRV
02-28-08, 11:39 PM
The reason I think the V needs to be priced at the M3 level is because the German M3's have generally superior drivetrain technology. The engines perform better (not just a monster truck engine in a sedan) and the tranny is waaaaay better.

Does GM still make many of the trannies for BMW? For years Strassberg made them because BMW knows GM has better transmissions.

lordbaby
02-29-08, 04:37 AM
M3 or M5 what are you talking.. i would rather pay a little extra for the M5 instead of the V

rand49er
02-29-08, 07:42 AM
Anybody have an idea as to when we'll see some V2's in the hands of C&D, MT, R&T, etc. so we can see numbers?



... i would rather pay a little extra for the M5 instead of the VA little extra? :canttalk:

NormV
02-29-08, 01:21 PM
Does GM still make many of the trannies for BMW? For years Strassberg made them because BMW knows GM has better transmissions.

HiTechRV, that was quite a long time ago when the 5-series had the 4-speed automatic. GM can't get out of 5-6 speed slush boxes and the Europeans have moved on to 7-speeds.

Volvo used a beefed up version of the 4t65E about a decade ago too! GM can make transmission that can handle the torque!

Norm

haveboost
02-29-08, 01:56 PM
M3 or M5 what are you talking.. i would rather pay a little extra for the M5 instead of the V

Having owned a V1 and now an M5 it goes without saying that they're apples and oranges. The V1 was ok. But full of problems, the interior was horrible, and the build quality was terrible.

Yes the M5 is much more but you get peace of mind. No wheel hop, no radio peeling buttons, no interior creaks and sounds, and it's comfortable. Not to mention all the creature comforts, like bluetooth, Ipod integration, ventilated seats, maintenance included, free oil, etc...

If you can afford it, it's worth it just for the peace of mind. The V1 spent at least 3 months in the dealer for various problems(twice a/c, 4 rear ends, front shocks, and various interior panels, headlights) in the 2 years I had it. My M5 less than a week, and that's because my son left the trunk opened and it got water and damaged some computers, which BMW replaced at no cost. Also the loaners are always very nice BMW's as opposed to Chevy loaners cadillac was providing.

I guess what I'm saying is you get what you pay for.

Having said that, I'm very curious with the new V2. I'm on the list for one. But after what I experienced, I'm going to be very cautious, and take that bad boy for a very serious test drive. Maybe I'll wait to hear from people who bought the car & wait for all the possible issues it may have. You know what they say "get me once shame on you, twice shame on me".

CIWS
03-02-08, 10:44 AM
Ok, base to base is $4K since the c6 has opt exhaust.

Why sacrifice in a sports car when you can have more luxurious and two doors. Not any more!


Norm

Last week when I was at the performance shop the owner had an 08 vette on the dyno that had only had a mild cam and headers added to the car and it was making 497 rwhp. A pretty impressive number for no more modification than was done to the car. :) More power than a Z06 for 6K of modification to a base Vette.

onebadcad
03-02-08, 11:50 PM
Last week when I was at the performance shop the owner had an 08 vette on the dyno that had only had a mild cam and headers added to the car and it was making 497 rwhp. A pretty impressive number for no more modification than was done to the car. :) More power than a Z06 for 6K of modification to a base Vette.

The LS3 is very understated by GM. Many C6Z owners are understandably upset, and envious. IIRC, saw a C6 LS3 w/ProCharger (5-6 psi) post 531 RWHP. Also seen a bone stock C6Z dyno at 455RWHP.

NormV
03-03-08, 01:02 AM
I think LG's 08 LS3 test car with obvious full exhaust, intake and cam was ousting the new Z, :)


Norm


The LS3 is very understated by GM. Many C6Z owners are understandably upset, and envious. IIRC, saw a C6 LS3 w/ProCharger (5-6 psi) post 531 RWHP. Also seen a bone stock C6Z dyno at 455RWHP.

GNSCOTT
03-03-08, 10:08 PM
You can try to compare the M3 and the CTS-V all you want, but most buyers of the V have families and you cannot fit 3 adults in the back of an M3 and you cannot fit 2 comfortably. Try fitting 2 car seats in an M3 and they are not in the same territory. Why would you compare it to an M3 and not an M5? With your thinking BMW should not sell any M5's at $90k. If $70k does not seem like a steal for you compared to an M5, the ball capper M3 is for you.

NormV
03-03-08, 11:07 PM
E90/92 M3 now comes in a four door. :)


Norm


You can try to compare the M3 and the CTS-V all you want, but most buyers of the V have families and you cannot fit 3 adults in the back of an M3 and you cannot fit 2 comfortably. Try fitting 2 car seats in an M3 and they are not in the same territory. Why would you compare it to an M3 and not an M5? With your thinking BMW should not sell any M5's at $90k. If $70k does not seem like a steal for you compared to an M5, the ball capper M3 is for you.

v84life
03-04-08, 01:10 AM
M3 sedan is tool small for me .Its not even a consideration.

1fstkde
03-04-08, 01:36 AM
Having owned a V1 and now an M5 it goes without saying that they're apples and oranges. The V1 was ok. But full of problems, the interior was horrible, and the build quality was terrible.

Yes the M5 is much more but you get peace of mind. No wheel hop, no radio peeling buttons, no interior creaks and sounds, and it's comfortable. Not to mention all the creature comforts, like bluetooth, Ipod integration, ventilated seats, maintenance included, free oil, etc...

If you can afford it, it's worth it just for the peace of mind. The V1 spent at least 3 months in the dealer for various problems(twice a/c, 4 rear ends, front shocks, and various interior panels, headlights) in the 2 years I had it. My M5 less than a week, and that's because my son left the trunk opened and it got water and damaged some computers, which BMW replaced at no cost. Also the loaners are always very nice BMW's as opposed to Chevy loaners cadillac was providing.

I guess what I'm saying is you get what you pay for.

Having said that, I'm very curious with the new V2. I'm on the list for one. But after what I experienced, I'm going to be very cautious, and take that bad boy for a very serious test drive. Maybe I'll wait to hear from people who bought the car & wait for all the possible issues it may have. You know what they say "get me once shame on you, twice shame on me".
i was fortunate to have an 05 ctsv, and the only problem i had was the peeling buttons..drove hard and the rear end held up..loved the car, but like you said cant compare it to the m5 because its 30k less....its like comparing the v to a 20k car...you cant...so when my two year lease on the stsv is up this year my options are the following to choose from. 09 ctsv, Nissan Skyline GT-R, 09 zr1(depending on price), hopefully i dont go rice, but you never know...

theformer
03-04-08, 02:22 AM
I priced out an M3 sedan similar to the '09 V and came up just north of $66k. I could have added a few more options. The V definitely competes with the M3 on price, but it is going to be a more powerful car, will probably be better equipped for the money and is the size of the M5 to boot.

I've had a BMW or three in the past and have been relatively pleased with the fit and finish so I would consider one and will probably drive the M3 sedan to see how the latest model fares. I don't really need the extra space that the V gives you, but I still love the naturally aspirated V-8 in the first gen. I'm not sure I'll like the supercharged version in the second gen.

To make matters worse, Audi has a next gen A4 set to bow which means a new S4 and likely RS4. There are seemingly more and better options hitting the market constantly.

There's never been a better time to be a car buyer.

thebigjimsho
03-04-08, 09:40 AM
Actually, the M3 sedan is not bad in back. It's not overly spacious, but it's not terribly snug either.

CIWS
03-04-08, 11:05 AM
I think the Nissan GT-Rs are going to be in "limited" numbers here, with limited Nissan dealerships selling them. If that holds true, then there will almost certainly be dealerships wanting premiums to be able to get one. At a projected cost of 70K + a dealership premium ? It doesn't sound like it's going to be a viable option.

Nivek
03-04-08, 12:37 PM
You can try to compare the M3 and the CTS-V all you want, but most buyers of the V have families and you cannot fit 3 adults in the back of an M3 and you cannot fit 2 comfortably. Try fitting 2 car seats in an M3 and they are not in the same territory. Why would you compare it to an M3 and not an M5? With your thinking BMW should not sell any M5's at $90k. If $70k does not seem like a steal for you compared to an M5, the ball capper M3 is for you.

I am not really comparing the CTS to the 3 series/C class/A4, GM is pricing it that way. The CTS is currently (this is a keyword) GMs entry level sport lux car and prices the models to compete with the German entry level sport lux (ones available in the USA) counterparts. The non-V CTS really does not compete with the 5 series/E class/A6. It might be closer in size to those, but must people shop by price point first and then factor in size. GM put it in that price point. Now place a V badge on the side and all the sudden we are going to raise it into another lux level. GMs non-V CTS is priced to compete with entry-level, is there justification to not continue this?

A fully loaded CTS is around $47,000 w/o AWD. I just do not think adding a bigger engine(with SC and intercooler), brakes, PTM, racing seats, fancy shocks (available on $48,000 Corvette and only cost $1,995) and badges is worth $23,000 more. On that note the M5 is not worth the extra money. I personally would not think the V10 and all its little extras are worth $24,000 more than 550i, but others will.

If they are wanting to price it higher for exclusitivity, they can. I am not trying to be exclusive, I would like to drive a Great American Luxury Sport Sedan and GM should want us all to do the same. BMW and Merc are going to sell a ton of the M3/C63, they are going to kill the RS4 (however that was coming to end). GM could sell at ton CTS-Vs or it could go the way of the STS-V and XLR-V.

varrius
03-04-08, 01:12 PM
You guys aren't looking at this properly. You're comparing it to the M3 and C class. Look at it this way. As motortrend said. The 90,000 dollar E63 AMG weighs the same as the CTS-V. However, the CTS-V has 43 more hp and 85 more ft lb of torque. Essentially, you're dominating a 90,000 car for less than 70k.

varrius
03-04-08, 01:20 PM
I think the Nissan GT-Rs are going to be in "limited" numbers here, with limited Nissan dealerships selling them. If that holds true, then there will almost certainly be dealerships wanting premiums to be able to get one. At a projected cost of 70K + a dealership premium ? It doesn't sound like it's going to be a viable option.

Who wants that japanese garbage anyway. The CTS-V is going to be a big red-white-and-blue punch in the face. I doubt the regular trim GT-Rs will even be able to compete. Only the special order 100,000+ model will be a problem.

CIWS
03-04-08, 01:27 PM
Who wants that japanese garbage anyway. The CTS-V is going to be a big red-white-and-blue punch in the face. I doubt the regular trim GT-Rs will even be able to compete. Only the special order 100,000+ model will be a problem.

Ooooohhh, Blackout is going to get you.. :killer:

varrius
03-04-08, 01:27 PM
Also, at any rate, you're getting MORE performance from the CTS-V (infact, motortrend says it's the highest performing sedan available) than you would for a 90,000 car, for 20 - 25,000 less. I know these cars aren't cheap. But seriously, for what we GET for that price, it's a STEAL. And I don't know about you guys but when I got into a GMAC dealership I am treated 10 times better than any german dealer and they don't haggle with me.

GNSCOTT
03-04-08, 03:38 PM
E90/92 M3 now comes in a four door. :)


Norm


Norm, Does it still seat 4? I think the orignal poster is also comparing it to the coupe since the sedan will be at a different price point (cost more than the coupe)


I am not really comparing the CTS to the 3 series/C class/A4, GM is pricing it that way. The CTS is currently (this is a keyword) GMs entry level sport lux car and prices the models to compete with the German entry level sport lux (ones available in the USA) counterparts. The non-V CTS really does not compete with the 5 series/E class/A6. It might be closer in size to those, but must people shop by price point first and then factor in size. GM put it in that price point. Now place a V badge on the side and all the sudden we are going to raise it into another lux level. GMs non-V CTS is priced to compete with entry-level, is there justification to not continue this?


Do not compare entry level with the "cheapest Caddy makes" how many entry level cars cost $60-$70k? GM has always marketed the car to be between an M3 and an M5 and they are giving you a car that when optioned out cost about the same as the M3, will probably be less than the M3 sedan, and a hell of a lot cheaper than the M5 and it will out reform both. Also i guess you have not priced out an LS7, an auto tranny and a rear end that can handle 500+ ft lbs in a car that can seat 5 and weigh up to 500 lbs. The CTS may be entry level for a lux sedan, but you can hardly call the new CTS-V entry level, especially when it wipes its azz with the competition.


A fully loaded CTS is around $47,000 w/o AWD. I just do not think adding a bigger engine(with SC and intercooler), brakes, PTM, racing seats, fancy shocks (available on $48,000 Corvette and only cost $1,995) and badges is worth $23,000 more. On that note the M5 is not worth the extra money. I personally would not think the V10 and all its little extras are worth $24,000 more than 550i, but others will.

Again, compare apples to apples. Price a similarly equipped M3 Sedan when it comes out and turn that ball cap to the side, and again you are proving my point, how about doing your comparison with the $90k+ M5. The V is closer to an M5 than it is to an M3 coupe or sedan. I also remember buying my 04V when they compared it to the base price of an M3. Tell me, Is leather seating still an option on the M3 like it was in 04? Luxury car w/out leather seats.:rolleyes:

Some of us older family guys have to shop for size first. If I get the V it is because I want the best performing car that can seat 5 people that I can afford. If the M5 was $65k and the V was $90k I would buy the M5 (even though it will be slower) 2 car seats and a 12 year old will not fit in the back of an M3.

Nivek
03-04-08, 04:02 PM
GNSCOTT,


I see Mercedes finally released the US pricing for the C63 today and it comes in at the same as the M3 sedan at $53,800.

That is my original post, you will notice the word SEDAN in there. Actually the sedan is cheaper than the coupe, $3000 cheaper. I am not sure where you got the opinion I was talking about the coupe.

With that being said, everyone is free to decide which argument is better and how much the CTS-V should be. If the V comes out loaded between $63,000-$65,000, feel free to pay the dealer $70,000+ since you think it is worth it and a steal at that price. If the V comes out loaded at $70,000-$72,000, I will offer the dealer about $65,000+/-. He might not accept it at first, but something tells me he will eventually.

On a side note, several people were on the Merc boards were predicting the new C63 was going to be $75,000-$80,000 because of the new engine (shared with the other high $$ AMGs). It came in at $53,800. Have faith.

luxilon
03-04-08, 04:11 PM
GNSCOTT,
Note that the M3 coupe isn't cheaper than the M3 sedan. The MSRP on the M3 sedan is $53800 vs $56500 for the coupe (the sedan doesn't have the carbon fiber roof etc). The M3 is bigger than its previous generation, and yes, leather is still a $950 or $2000 option.

NormV
03-04-08, 04:30 PM
Forget the price! That is nappa leather and it is to die for everytime you glide into it. And it is not just the seating surface like GM cars, it's the whole seat that is wrapped in nappa.

You know what it would costs to rewrap the V1 seats?


Norm


GNSCOTT,
Note that the M3 coupe isn't cheaper than the M3 sedan. The MSRP on the M3 sedan is $53800 vs $56500 for the coupe (the sedan doesn't have the carbon fiber roof etc). The M3 is bigger than its previous generation, and yes, leather is still a $950 or $2000 option.

Cadillac Tony
03-04-08, 04:44 PM
Not all GM cars have leather only on the "seating surfaces"- take the STS-V for example. Not only is the entire seat wrapped in Semi-Aniline Tuscany leather, but so are the door panels and dash. The standard equipment on the CTS-V is awesome, and blows away the equipment packages on the Germans. Optional leather on an M3? Ha ha- typical BMW. Making items like lumbar, MP3 and navigation optional on an $86,000 M5 is a joke.

GNSCOTT
03-04-08, 04:52 PM
OK, The coupe is cheaper but is it still a 4 seat sedan as compared to a faster 5 seat sedan? Does the V not compare better to the M5 than it does the M3? Sorry, but recaro racing seats compared to any leather in my book is an even trade off. Yes Nav on those cars is a joke, but leather being an option in a $50k+ BMW is even more of a joke. Are you doubting that the M3 will not cost as much as a similarly equipped V? With your logic you have to be a freakin complete moron to spend $90k+ on an M5.

Gee the V is bigger and faster than the M3, but it should cost less with the same options????:bonkers:

CIWS
03-04-08, 06:50 PM
On a side note, several people were on the Merc boards were predicting the new C63 was going to be $75,000-$80,000 because of the new engine (shared with the other high $$ AMGs). It came in at $53,800. Have faith.

You guys keep quoting the base price for the C63. Any AMG that starts at 54K won't finish out with any real equipment on it for less than 65-70. Fully loaded I bet it sees close to 75K.

GNSCOTT
03-04-08, 07:03 PM
You guys keep quoting the base price for the C63. Any AMG that starts at 54K won't finish out with any real equipment on it for less than 65-70. Fully loaded I bet it sees close to 75K.


Caddy can put cloth seats in, remove the DVD, nav and a bunch of other goodies and start it at $54k as well, but I think Caddy realizes that a luxury car should have leather interior and bells and whistles. I doubt that you will see too many base M3's or AMG's sent to the US. Strippers are more for the european market where BMW's are the Chevy there. If you go to somehwere like Italy every other car is a low optioned Mercedes.

CIWS
03-04-08, 07:10 PM
If I buy an AMG vehicle, I would expect it to be outfitted as an AMG from the start since it carries that badging. Not have to spend another 6K+ just to put the AMG package on a car with that name.

Cadillac Tony
03-04-08, 07:16 PM
Caddy can put cloth seats in, remove the DVD, nav and a bunch of other goodies and start it at $54k as well, but I think Caddy realizes that a luxury car should have leather interior and bells and whistles. I doubt that you will see too many base M3's or AMG's sent to the US. Strippers are more for the european market where BMW's are the Chevy there. If you go to somehwere like Italy every other car is a low optioned Mercedes.

Your honor, the prosecution rests. :D

Cadillac Tony
03-04-08, 07:51 PM
If I buy an AMG vehicle, I would expect it to be outfitted as an AMG from the start since it carries that badging. Not have to spend another 6K+ just to put the AMG package on a car with that name.

:werd:

Imagine what people would say if the CTS-V looked exactly like a 3.6L and GM made the fascias, rockers, wheels, brakes, etc all optional- it would be an epic roast in all the magazines.

What is it about German car buyers that makes them so agreeable to just rolling over and taking it?

NormV
03-04-08, 08:04 PM
C63 AMG(no cloth for US) comes standard with perforated leather for $54K. It is a plethora of options from there. Nappa leather optional and so is performance package which raises speed limiter to 300 KPH and gives it compound brakes(yes, two piece rotor and hat brake option).

Caddy shoves the V2 on a plate in front you and says there, we can only make money when we build you can have a...V...in any color you want as long as it's black".

Looks like Stealth will have to take a European delivery V2 if he wants one without a roof. :)

Norm


Caddy can put cloth seats in, remove the DVD, nav and a bunch of other goodies and start it at $54k as well, but I think Caddy realizes that a luxury car should have leather interior and bells and whistles. I doubt that you will see too many base M3's or AMG's sent to the US. Strippers are more for the european market where BMW's are the Chevy there. If you go to somehwere like Italy every other car is a low optioned Mercedes.

NormV
03-04-08, 08:31 PM
Not all GM cars have leather only on the "seating surfaces"- take the STS-V for example. Not only is the entire seat wrapped in Semi-Aniline Tuscany leather, but so are the door panels and dash. The standard equipment on the CTS-V is awesome, and blows away the equipment packages on the Germans. Optional leather on an M3? Ha ha- typical BMW. Making items like lumbar, MP3 and navigation optional on an $86,000 M5 is a joke.

Thanks for the highlight as GM tries to compete with the Germans. FYI: Leather is standard for the C63 and Nappa leather can be had in the C63 for under $60K, not $65K like V2.

What leather does the V2 have?

$83K base for the M5. Those are active lumbar supports. I would not laugh too hard as GM thinks the STS-V should sell for $81K. Just an enlarged CTS that will never compete for the numbers againist the M5.

NAV is not on the option list for the M5:

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Vehicles/2008/M/M5Sedan/Features_and_Specs/M5SedanPkgsandOptions.aspx

Of course who knows what M5 really average retail is. STS-V after three years are half price. Who is the sucker now?


...and your supposed to be a salesman? When car prices approach 6-digits you will find the a wiser clientele. They will not put with your mouth full of samples. Better brush up on the product knowledge as V2 has allot of competition in the slushbox category. I wonder if they are going to allocate V2's like GM allocates Corvettes?

Norm

Cadillac Tony
03-04-08, 08:47 PM
Thanks for the highlight as GM tries to compete with the Germans. FYI: Leather is standard for the C63 and Nappa leather can be had in the C63 for under $60K, not $65K like V2.

What leather does the V2 have?

...and your supposed to be a salesman? When car prices approach 6-digits you will find the a wiser clientele. They will not put with your mouth full of samples. Better brush up on the product knowledge as V2 has allot of competition in the slushbox category. I wonder if they are going to allocate V2's like GM allocates Corvettes?

Norm

GM isn't "trying" to compete with the Germans- they've been trouncing them in comparos as far back as 2004. Read the May 2004 MT when a 3.6L CTS ripped a 5 series with a $15,000 higher price tag in every single category.

Using resale values as a way to prove which car is better is silly, especially considering that 65% the "wiser clientele" you claim to know so much about lease their cars, not purchase them. We're debating the car, not it's resale, and it's pretty telling that the German car snobs are now having to resort to arguing this instead of the merits of the vehicle. The waters have become a little muddied as to which car we're talking about here also, as everything from the C63 to the M3 and M5 have been discussed.

I was going to start this final paragraph "with all due respect", but I only give it when it's warranted- your comment about my product knowledge is not only laughable, but flat out rude. I've been selling high line cars to multi-millionaires and exotic owners for a long time, and all of them tell me that my knowledge if far beyond that of any Lamborghini, Mercedes or Porsche salesperson they've ever encountered. I don't need your little FYIs, or your smug comments.

Why you guys choose to hang around on a Cadillac forum and sing the praises of BMW and MB is beyond me. If you think they're that much better, then hit the road and go hang on a Benz forum.

:wave:

NormV
03-04-08, 09:09 PM
I would not rip prospective customers like Stealth when he picked a couple year old beemer over the latest caddy. I hope you don't loose a GM customer over option packages like a roof. If you do it is not price or a magazine test result that your up against.

I am glad to see caddy stepping up to the plate. Lincoln is 5 years behind and may never catch up. It is just that pesky Motor Trend comparison that the new CTS lost to a Jap, G35, that irks me. :)


Norm

Cadillac Tony
03-04-08, 09:24 PM
I didn't rip Stealth for buying a BMW- in fact, I went out of my way and invested quite a bit of my personal time to try and help him order a car from another Dealer when I stood to gain nothing by doing so. That's the last I have to say on the issue, as this forum is a place to discuss Cadillacs, not me.

BMW makes a fine car, I just think they're horribly overpriced and overrated. I think it's silly to cross a car off your consideration list because of a sunroof, but I'm also the same crazy guy who thinks Satellite radio should be standard in a $90,000 car- different strokes for different folks.

varrius
03-04-08, 10:51 PM
I'm interested to see how much it costs GM to build a CTS-V2.

v84life
03-05-08, 01:30 AM
Caddy can put cloth seats in, remove the DVD, nav and a bunch of other goodies and start it at $54k as well, but I think Caddy realizes that a luxury car should have leather interior and bells and whistles. I doubt that you will see too many base M3's or AMG's sent to the US. Strippers are more for the european market where BMW's are the Chevy there. If you go to somehwere like Italy every other car is a low optioned Mercedes.

How about Taxi's. Went to Germany few years back was picked up at the airport in a 5 series taxi. Then caught a few others during my stay and ended up in 2 Mercedes and another bimmer ...:p

HushH
03-05-08, 12:01 PM
...and your supposed to be a salesman? When car prices approach 6-digits you will find the a wiser clientele. They will not put with your mouth full of samples. Better brush up on the product knowledge as V2 has allot of competition in the slushbox category...

Norm

Are you f'in kidding me?!?:bigroll: You're actually telling Tony to brush up on his product knowledge. He is easily one of, if not the, most knowledgeable user on this forum regarding Cadillac products and their direct competitors. And he's by far the most knowledgeable salesperson I have ever encountered.

Maybe you should work on forming some coherent sentences...
Of course who knows what M5 really average retail is. :bonkers:...and then get back to us on the product knowledge subject.

thebigjimsho
03-05-08, 12:24 PM
Wouldn't it be nice if urb restricted Norm's access to this forum? Cadillac is making an incredible car and all this guy wants to do is rip it. No one has driven it yet. And Norm has never seen it, although a few here, including Tony, have.

So why not save the contrarian crap for when you actually know what you're talking about...

NormV
03-05-08, 01:23 PM
This a good comparison thread.

Here is an overview of v2 versus.... which I am sure will be a nice big comparison issue in Car & Driver. I can't believe they called the LSA a "meathead" motor. Ah, we'll see.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/high_performance/furious_four_doors/competitors_in_the_crosshairs_2009_cadillac_cts_v_ feature__1

Norm

CIWS
03-05-08, 02:20 PM
This a good comparison thread.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/high_performance/furious_four_doors/competitors_in_the_crosshairs_2009_cadillac_cts_v_ feature__1

Norm

I never give much credence to a source that can't get their info straight.

Referencing the 08 STS-V - " Stuff a supercharged V-8 with 440 horsepower and 430 pound-feet of torque ..."

That sounds more like they read from the 05 press report on the car than actually knowing about it. It's been 469HP since the day it was released two years ago.

thebigjimsho
03-05-08, 03:01 PM
I never give much credence to a source that can't get their info straight.

Referencing the 08 STS-V - " Stuff a supercharged V-8 with 440 horsepower and 430 pound-feet of torque ..."

That sounds more like they read from the 05 press report on the car than actually knowing about it. It's been 469HP since the day it was released two years ago.Yeah, their proofreaders have slipped a bit in past years. But that is the XLR-V's specs...

Cadillac Tony
03-05-08, 03:27 PM
Yeah, their proofreaders have slipped a bit in past years. But that is the XLR-V's specs...

Nope- the XLR-V is 443/414. 440/430 is the number Cadillac initially published on the STS-V before SAE Certification, so CIWS is right that whoever wrote the article was referring to an outdated spec sheet.

thebigjimsho
03-05-08, 04:48 PM
Nope- the XLR-V is 443/414. 440/430 is the number Cadillac initially published on the STS-V before SAE Certification, so CIWS is right that whoever wrote the article was referring to an outdated spec sheet.You sunuvabitch! I back you up and you couldn't just let my faux pas fade into Bolivian? Instead you stab me in the back for your own benefit. I think your brain has squeezed out your hair follicles...

HushH
03-05-08, 05:08 PM
You sunuvabitch! I back you up and you couldn't just let my faux pas fade into Bolivian? Instead you stab me in the back for your own benefit. I think your brain has squeezed out your hair follicles...

:lol:

GNSCOTT
03-05-08, 08:18 PM
Norm, Price out the Mercedes, the M3, M5 and the CTSV with similar options and get back to us. You are so stupidly stuck on base pricing.

Now whatever prices you come up with for this group of performance Sedans and tell me which one PERFORMS better.

The V will compare in price to the Mercedes and 4 seat M3, it will be a hell of alot cheaper to its closest comparison the M5 and it will out perform all of them.

Take a notch or 2 out of the ball cap, turn it so it is on straight or keep it the way it is and buy an M3.

And for the record I would not touch an STS-V with a 10 foor pole, but that has nothing to do with the new CTS-V's numbers.(no offense to owners)

GNSCOTT
03-05-08, 08:38 PM
I also love how these superior European engines are so great on fuel.

C63... 457HP (lower than the new V), only 3800lbs (lower than the V) and gets 12mpg in city driving.:rolleyes: Seems to me if you drop the V's motor in there you will have a much faster car with almost double the mpg. Tell me again how German engines are better engineered than a Chevy motor.;)

Cadillac Tony
03-05-08, 09:09 PM
I think your brain has squeezed out your hair follicles...

Hey, I'm not bald- that's a solar collector for a sex machine! :shhh:

thebigjimsho
03-06-08, 12:45 AM
Hey, I'm not bald- that's a solar collector for a sex machine! :shhh:You, sir, are no James Brown...


G3S0dmBI8NI

xshrpshtr
03-10-08, 04:32 AM
Are you high? Never in my life have I read or heard a "salesman" speak so coherently on any technical subject regarding actuall knowledge regarding parts and pieces of the drive train. My sister is a cadillac "salesperson" and I guarrantee you, the next one I buy will be from TONY. Not only does Tony KNOW about what he speaks of but actually owns one too. Other so called "salesmen" on this forum(Pratt) couldn't tell a piston skirt from the one he wears when he gets home. I can tell you I was shocked when I read how much he knew about pistons. I've spoken with master engine builders who knew less technically then Tony. I say "we" are DAMN lucky to have a "salesperson" who truly knows what he speaks of and spends so much of his time sharing his inside track with us.
Who is the sucker now?


...and your supposed to be a salesman? When car prices approach 6-digits you will find the a wiser clientele. They will not put with your mouth full of samples. Better brush up on the product knowledge as V2 has allot of competition in the slushbox category. I wonder if they are going to allocate V2's like GM allocates Corvettes?

Norm

NormV
03-10-08, 09:48 AM
Are you high? Never in my life have I read or heard a "salesman" speak so coherently on any technical subject regarding actuall knowledge regarding parts and pieces of the drive train. My sister is a cadillac "salesperson" and I guarrantee you, the next one I buy will be from TONY. Not only does Tony KNOW about what he speaks of but actually owns one too. Other so called "salesmen" on this forum(Pratt) couldn't tell a piston skirt from the one he wears when he gets home. I can tell you I was shocked when I read how much he knew about pistons. I've spoken with master engine builders who knew less technically then Tony. I say "we" are DAMN lucky to have a "salesperson" who truly knows what he speaks of and spends so much of his time sharing his inside track with us.

If a salesman had knowledge of car's parts and pieces of the drive train, I would probably steer clear of the car if I wanted something dependable.

The reference was made to knowledge of other cars that might compete for his sales. He showed little interest in learning saying that German car owners should just roll over and take it. Tony knows Cadillacs but not why people like Rick would buy a Beemer because GM would not offer a certain option package. Just too much competition in this segment.

Norm

Cadillac Tony
03-10-08, 10:09 AM
Ah, I see- the ole' "misunderstanding". Here's what I posted:




Imagine what people would say if the CTS-V looked exactly like a 3.6L and GM made the fascias, rockers, wheels, brakes, etc all optional- it would be an epic roast in all the magazines.

What is it about German car buyers that makes them so agreeable to just rolling over and taking it?

What I meant was that German car buyers pay a fortune for an AMG model, then pay extra to get the AMG appearance package that should be included- hence, "rolling over and taking it".

Read that again and you'll see I wasn't suggesting that anyone should just accept Cadillac's options, but rather that they get it in the rear from MB and BMW on their pricing structure.

rand49er
03-10-08, 10:40 AM
Ah, I see- the ole' "misunderstanding". Here's what I posted:



What I meant was that German car buyers pay a fortune for an AMG model, then pay extra to get the AMG appearance package that should be included- hence, "rolling over and taking it".

Read that again and you'll see I wasn't suggesting that anyone should just accept Cadillac's options, but rather that they get it in the rear from MB and BMW on their pricing structure.Nobody ever accused me of being the sharpest pencil in the box, and I understood that completely ... the first time.

urbanski
03-10-08, 10:45 AM
thanks CT

NormV
03-10-08, 10:58 AM
Ah, I see- the ole' "misunderstanding". Here's what I posted:



What I meant was that German car buyers pay a fortune for an AMG model, then pay extra to get the AMG appearance package that should be included- hence, "rolling over and taking it".

Read that again and you'll see I wasn't suggesting that anyone should just accept Cadillac's options, but rather that they get it in the rear from MB and BMW on their pricing structure.

Don't tell me GM doesn't do the same thing!

So when someone walks in and says I would like 17" wheels, not 16" on my CTS what do you tell them? "You want our faux pas model".

"Wheel Sport Appearance Pkg.
3.6

$3,600

$3,366
Wheel Performance Pkg. plus chrome mesh grille, rear spoiler, unique exterior trim. NA w/California Pkg."

http://www.who-sells-it.com/cy/cadillac-1374/cadillac-cts-2007-5184/page-2.html

Norm

thebigjimsho
03-10-08, 11:08 AM
Don't tell me GM doesn't do the same thing!

So when someone walks in and says I would like 17" wheels, not 16" on my CTS what do you tell them? "You want our faux pas model".

"Wheel Sport Appearance Pkg.
3.6

$3,600

$3,366
Wheel Performance Pkg. plus chrome mesh grille, rear spoiler, unique exterior trim. NA w/California Pkg."

http://www.who-sells-it.com/cy/cadillac-1374/cadillac-cts-2007-5184/page-2.html

NormWow, you just can't read, can you? Tony wasn't denying that. If you actually read his post, he was talking about paying for an AMG appearance package ON AN AMG CAR!!!

C'mon McFly, think!

Cadillac Tony
03-10-08, 11:20 AM
Every manufacturer offers an upgraded appearance package in some form, be it bigger wheels, a spoiler, body colored trim pieces, etc, but the car is still just a "regular" model. There's nothing wrong with Nissan, Mercedes, Honda or Cadillac offering the option to soup up the appearance of your new car a little without jumping up to the hard-core performance model, but to continue to charge extra for the appearance even on the performance model is just gouging the customer.

Seriously man- a $21,000 Civic Si (only $2,290 more expensive than the Civic EX) includes a different fascia, rear wing, shit knob and boot, racing seats, special gauge faces, Si badging and unique wheels as part of the model upgrade. Practically every automaker except Mercedes does it, and I was simply wondering why their customers aren't outraged.

NormV
03-10-08, 11:23 AM
So your saying Tony doesn't know they change the engine on M, AMG, and S models along with everything that supports it? Thought he knew that. :)

Norm


Wow, you just can't read, can you? Tony wasn't denying that. If you actually read his post, he was talking about paying for an AMG appearance package ON AN AMG CAR!!!

C'mon McFly, think!

Cadillac Tony
03-10-08, 11:28 AM
This is silly Norm- I never said they don't change the engine on an AMG car. To suggest that I don't know that is ludicrous, and all you're doing at this point is dancing around the fact that I'm right in pointing out how MB gouges people on the price of their cars, even on their top models.

The fact that you've resorted to insulting me instead of replying to the facts about the car shows that you're out of ammo, so thanks for proving me right. :)

NormV
03-10-08, 11:34 AM
Hence the thread: $15,000 off when buying a C63 compared to the V2.


Norm


This is silly Norm- I never said they don't change the engine on an AMG car. To suggest that I don't know that is ludicrous, and all you're doing at this point is dancing around the fact that I'm right in pointing out how MB gouges people on the price of their cars, even on their top models.

Cadillac Tony
03-10-08, 11:47 AM
....and hence the replies of wise people like CIWS, Rand49er and Bigjimsho that show comparing the "base" price of a C63 to the CTS-V doesn't tell the whole story for multiple reasons.

1- The CTS-V price includes all the visual upgrades to the body, interior, wheels and more. MB will certainly charge extra if you want your AMG to actually look like an AMG, which is stupid.

2- The CTS is a much roomier and more comfortable car than the C-Class, so it's like comparing an Elise to a Z06.

3- Many features that are standard on the CTS-V will be optional on the C63.

4-The price of the 2 generation CTS-V isn't even out yet, so you're just speculating at this point.

We're going around in circles here. There's now 9 pages of reasons why this comparison is invalid, and all you can muster is re-posing the original question. Base price to base price means nothing- once CTS-V pricing is out and we can compare two equally optioned cars, then we can debate value.

You seem reasonably intelligent, which is why I don't understand how you get suckered in by the "Starting At" price game. If you put that much value on the base price, I'll tell you what: I'll sell you a CTS-V "Starting At" $30,000, but you have to buy the Powertrain separately. Deal?

NormV
03-10-08, 01:03 PM
The C63 is around $61K plus tax, loaded. There are no "AMG" options like you mention for the C63. Not unless you want track brake system with two part rotor and hat. You'll have to prove #1 & #3 if you think lookers would stay until next winter for V2.

As for #2 AMG customers are not going to "rollin" in there Benz. All the European cars are smaller overall and sometimes have better use of given room. People will just have to drive them to find out and not listen to a salesman.

Looks like there are some pretty good markups for the E92 M3 already!

Norm



....and hence the replies of wise people like CIWS, Rand49er and Bigjimsho that show comparing the "base" price of a C63 to the CTS-V doesn't tell the whole story for multiple reasons.

1- The CTS-V price includes all the visual upgrades to the body, interior, wheels and more. MB will certainly charge extra if you want your AMG to actually look like an AMG, which is stupid.

2- The CTS is a much roomier and more comfortable car than the C-Class, so it's like comparing an Elise to a Z06.

3- Many features that are standard on the CTS-V will be optional on the C63.

4-The price of the 2 generation CTS-V isn't even out yet, so you're just speculating at this point.

We're going around in circles here. There's now 9 pages of reasons why this comparison is invalid, and all you can muster is re-posing the original question. Base price to base price means nothing- once CTS-V pricing is out and we can compare two equally optioned cars, then we can debate value.

You seem reasonably intelligent, which is why I don't understand how you get suckered in by the "Starting At" price game. If you put that much value on the base price, I'll tell you what: I'll sell you a CTS-V "Starting At" $30,000, but you have to buy the Powertrain separately. Deal?

Cadillac Tony
03-10-08, 01:15 PM
As for #2 AMG customers are not going to "rollin" in there Benz. All the European cars are smaller overall and sometimes have better use of given room. People will just have to drive them to find out and not listen to a salesman.

Norm

:lol: :rolleyes:

I don't "roll" in my 04 CTS-V, nor do I plan to in my '09. I do however, plan to put my Son's carseat and occasionally my In-Laws in the back seat, plus my golf clubs in the trunk. Every single C-Class I've taken in trade toward a CTS, the owner mentions how tiny the car is. People don't buy sedans for the spiffy looking rear doors- they buy them to put stuff in the back.

3.2" less front hip room
3.6" less front shoulder room
2.9" less rear leg room
1.4 cubic feet less cargo volume in trunk

Those are significant differences, and come directly from the respective manufacturers' specs. I also don't drive to work 10/10ths on a racetrack, so I appreciate the better ride that 6.5" longer wheelbase offers (along with the more advanced MRC suspension).

There's also nothing wrong with listening to a Salesperson if they know what they're talking about. Plenty of people take their financial advisor's advice, and he/she works on commission as well.

Cadillac Tony
03-10-08, 01:51 PM
Here's a list of options on the C63, straight from Mercedes Benz (my additions added in Red)

Packages and Stand Alone Options (notice the word "Options", meaning extra cost)

Premium 2 Package:
Bi-Xenon Headlamps (standard on V)
Heated Headlamp Washers (standard on V)
Power Rear Window Sunshade

Multimedia Package:
7" Power Rectractable Display (standard on V- 1" bigger screen, too)
COMAND Navigation (standard on V, with hands-free turn by turn)
harman/kardon LOGIC7 Surround Sound System (Bose 5.1 MP3/HDD standard on V)
Voice Control (standard on V)
PCMCIA Slot (iPod integration and 40gb HDD standard on V)
6-Disc CD/DVD Changer (unnecessary with HDD standard on V)

Seating Package:
Nappa Leather Upholstery (Unknown what type of leather in the V at this point, but will definitely have sueded inserts standard)
Memory Seats (standard on V)

Stand Alone Options:
Metallic Paint (metallics standard on V, some colors optional)
Tele Aid (OnStar standard on V- blows away Tele Aid)
6-Disc CD Changer (n/a with Multimedia Package) (not needed on V with 40gb HDD standard)

Carbon Fiber Trim (H73) will not be available at launch. Customers can choose from Aluminum (739), Burl Walnut (731), or Black Birdseye Maple
(732) Trim with any exterior paint selection.

The 19" AMG wheels will not be offered in the US market. (standard on V)

KEYLESS GO will not be offered in the US market. (standard on V)

PARKTRONIC will not be offered in the US market. (rear parking standard on V)

The P30 AMG Performance Package will not be available at launch. (no LSD on a performance car- haha. Standard on V with PTM and Stabilitrak)

Typical Mercedes- hook you with a low "Starting At" price, then rape you on options if you want a real luxury car to go with your powertrain.

NormV
03-10-08, 02:22 PM
Most guys use their car for daily drivers so their "rollin".

Want truck space? Check an A6. Someone started this thread!

Numbers: what are you comparing as both CTS and C-class are new for 08? Every wonder why GM's code for the CTS was GMX-320? MB E/C 320!

Still have not seen your rebutal to No. 1 & 3. Or is that normal salesman linguistics?

Your right, not too many salesman have the passion you do for your V. You bring allot of knowledge to the forum along with allot of falsities about the competition. Then you back it up with hearsay from others.

Just the facts! :)


Norm




:lol: :rolleyes:

I don't "roll" in my 04 CTS-V, nor do I plan to in my '09. I do however, plan to put my Son's carseat and occasionally my In-Laws in the back seat, plus my golf clubs in the trunk. Every single C-Class I've taken in trade toward a CTS, the owner mentions how tiny the car is. People don't buy sedans for the spiffy looking rear doors- they buy them to put stuff in the back.

3.2" less front hip room
3.6" less front shoulder room
2.9" less rear leg room
1.4 cubic feet less cargo volume in trunk

Those are significant differences, and come directly from the respective manufacturers' specs. I also don't drive to work 10/10ths on a racetrack, so I appreciate the better ride that 6.5" longer wheelbase offers (along with the more advanced MRC suspension).

There's also nothing wrong with listening to a Salesperson if they know what they're talking about. Plenty of people take their financial advisor's advice, and he/she works on commission as well.

NormV
03-10-08, 02:45 PM
Thank you! That was I was looking for and hope it clears some things up for those shopping. I am sure there is stuff that C63 has that V2 does not that you did not list. MB offers a very nice european delivery program to drive your there, then have it shipped back.

Now, hp wars start per dollar. 63 motor is putting low 400's to the wheel. At 17% drive train loss for V2 should put it in the mid 400's to the wheel. Considering the weight difference it should be a close performance test results. V2 is not looking too fast but should pull some new customers. :)


Norm

Except for the price. Looks to be around $10,000 cheaper than V2 plus tax.

Norm


Here's a list of options on the C63, straight from Mercedes Benz (my additions added in Red)

Packages and Stand Alone Options (notice the word "Options", meaning extra cost)

Premium 2 Package:
Bi-Xenon Headlamps (standard on V)
Heated Headlamp Washers (standard on V)
Power Rear Window Sunshade

Multimedia Package:
7" Power Rectractable Display (standard on V- 1" bigger screen, too)
COMAND Navigation (standard on V, with hands-free turn by turn)
harman/kardon LOGIC7 Surround Sound System (Bose 5.1 MP3/HDD standard on V)
Voice Control (standard on V)
PCMCIA Slot (iPod integration and 40gb HDD standard on V)
6-Disc CD/DVD Changer (unnecessary with HDD standard on V)

Seating Package:
Nappa Leather Upholstery (Unknown what type of leather in the V at this point, but will definitely have sueded inserts standard)
Memory Seats (standard on V)

Stand Alone Options:
Metallic Paint (metallics standard on V, some colors optional)
Tele Aid (OnStar standard on V- blows away Tele Aid)
6-Disc CD Changer (n/a with Multimedia Package) (not needed on V with 40gb HDD standard)

Carbon Fiber Trim (H73) will not be available at launch. Customers can choose from Aluminum (739), Burl Walnut (731), or Black Birdseye Maple
(732) Trim with any exterior paint selection.

The 19" AMG wheels will not be offered in the US market. (standard on V)

KEYLESS GO will not be offered in the US market. (standard on V)

PARKTRONIC will not be offered in the US market. (rear parking standard on V)

The P30 AMG Performance Package will not be available at launch. (no LSD on a performance car- haha. Standard on V with PTM and Stabilitrak)

Typical Mercedes- hook you with a low "Starting At" price, then rape you on options if you want a real luxury car to go with your powertrain.

Cadillac Tony
03-10-08, 03:00 PM
Still have not seen your rebutal to No. 1 & 3. Or is that normal salesman linguistics?

:rolleyes: Here we go again attacking me and ignoring the specs put right in front of you. My evidence to point #3 is post #87- I suggest you read it, it's really interesting. If they are including the AMG wheels and bodywork in the base price of the C63, it'll be a first- it's been optional on every other AMG I've ever seen.


Most guys use their car for daily drivers

Exactly- so remind me again why you're ignoring the bigger trunk, better ride, larger interior, more amenities and more user friendly and comfortable interior of the CTS over the C-Class and saying that it doesn't matter? Oh wait, I know- because it shoots holes in your whole retarded argument.


Just the facts!

Cargo volume is a fact.
Leg room is a fact.
Hip room is a fact.
Wheelbase is a fact.
Option lists are a fact.
Price is a fact.

Dig deeper, though, and in many cases, consumers' views do not accurately
reflect the automaker's recent track record. For example, Mercedes-Benz
finished in the top five for quality. But the brand placed 33rd out of 36th
in Consumer Reports' latest rankings for predicted reliability, a measure of
quality over time.

^ Fact.

The volume, dimensions and features of the E-Class matches up almost perfectly with the CTS, so that's the car that should be compared (but with a "Starting At" price of $87,475 for an E63 AMG, that one doesn't work so well to prove your point, does it?)

Cadillac Tony
03-10-08, 03:03 PM
Thank you! That was I was looking for and hope it clears some things up for those shopping. I am sure there is stuff that C63 has that V2 does not that you did not list.

Nope- that's the option list verbatim, I didn't edit anything out.

urbanski
03-10-08, 03:15 PM
holy ****

NormV
03-10-08, 04:37 PM
Wow!!!! Tony, you really have given me the big picture of a Cadillac owner demographics/salesmen.

I already mentioned the C-class was smaller. I think the new cts is about the same roominess from the driver's seat with more clearance to the roof from your head and that is without sunroof on autoshow floor.

Again, what numbers were you comparing above? What models?
Again your talking like a salesmen with a mouth full of samples, unless your frothing at the mouth.

So the V2 will do everything better than the MB and MB will do nothing better than the V2?

Give us the facts not your opinion is red, subjectively as I would not use either 6-disk changer, nor iPod/MP3(no, cassette or 8-track either).


AMG never had optional body work available, ever. Lorinser is not MB, nor is Brabuss!


Reuter's quoting a Consumer Reports report, but you don't have a date. When was this? 1980's?

Norm

HITMONEY
03-10-08, 05:21 PM
:gg:

Ya know, you may be more comfortable HERE. (http://www.mercedesforum.com/)

Cadillac Tony
03-10-08, 05:23 PM
Again, what numbers were you comparing above? What models?
Again your talking like a salesmen with a mouth full of samples, unless your frothing at the mouth.

A 2008 CTS and a 2008 C300. The AMG or V packages have no effect on hip room or trunk dimensions. I'll disregard the typical jab about Salesman, although I wonder if there's any other people or professions you're this stereotypical and rude to?


So the V2 will do everything better than the MB and MB will do nothing better than the V2?

I never said that, I'm just providing a counterpoint to all the MB slobbering from some of you. Their pricing is ridiculous (no LSD on an AMG is a joke at that price), and I'm putting some facts out there for those who think MB walks on water. People love to compare "base" prices, but if you take two equally equipped cars OF THE SAME SIZE then there's no comparison between the two. Example:

2008 E63 AMG
Base MSRP $86,125

P1: Premium I
$1,710
Active Ventilated Front Seats
DVD COMAND Navigation
Power Rear-Window Sunshade

P2: Premium II
$3,620
Includes all the items from P1 Package plus:
Headlamp Washing System
Bi-Xenon Active Light System
Cornering Fog Lamps
Keyless Go

P30 AMG Performance Package
$8,500
Top track speed to 186 mph (Electronically limited. Obey speed laws.)
Staggered-width 18-inch two-piece AMG 5-spoke wheels
AMG track-calibrated Airmatic suspension system
Limited-slip differential
(*Tony's note: Are you kidding me!? $8,500 for sport suspension, LSD, raised speed limiter and rims on a $90,000 car?*)

Options

Distronic Adaptive Cruise Control Feature Spotlight $2,200
Electronic Trunk Closer $530
Panorama Sunroof $1,010
iPod Integration Kit $425
Parktronic Feature Spotlight $1,120
Voice Control Feature Spotlight $510
Rear Side-Window Blinds $350

Leaving off the items Cadillac doesn't offer (like Distronic cruise and electronic trunk closer), I come up with a price of $101,900 for a "not quite fully loaded" E63. Yikes. I'd love to configure one On-Line so I could be exact, but MB's web site won't let you build your own AMG and tells you to contact a dealer- I wonder why?


Give us the facts not your opinion is red, subjectively as I would not use either 6-disk changer, nor iPod/MP3(no, cassette or 8-track either).

A CTS-V has a 40gb HDD with radio buffering and iPod hookups, while a C63 doesn't. How is that my opinion?



Reuter's quoting a Consumer Reports report, but you don't have a date. When was this? 1980's?

Norm

Two months ago, actually.

http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS213405+08-Jan-2008+PRN20080108

parexa
03-10-08, 05:24 PM
Who the hell would pay 60k for a C class anyway?

Cadillac Tony
03-10-08, 05:31 PM
Who the hell would pay 60k for a C class anyway?


:lol:

I could have saved a lot of time by just typing that. :highfive:

thebigjimsho
03-10-08, 06:42 PM
Tony keeps bringing up stat after stat that backs up all his "facts". Norm just comes with his boner for anything German.

NormV
03-10-08, 06:54 PM
I was hoping you'd volunteer this information on the C63 but as a salesmen will hold info just to make your point and even bait and switch which doesn't work well in a thread.

Besides a base C is cheaper than the base caddy by $2K. And a whole lot lighter.

What if someone wants to listen to their classic CDs like more than one in their Caddy. Tough luck?


You know what 1.4 cubic foot looks like in a car trunk? That is why I mentioned the cars are closer than you'll allow some to believe. We just need the facts and we'll go from there.

You did not even give all info on every dimension the first time. Hiding something?

MB does not use LSD on any of their AMG until recently. They really don't need it in most circumstances.

CIWS
03-10-08, 06:56 PM
AMG never had optional body work available, ever. Lorinser is not MB, nor is Brabuss!

:shens:


Every real current AMG has the optional AMG performance package for an additional cost. The more the AMG costs, the more the AMG package costs.

The cheapest SLK 55 - base model 64K ,

For an additional 6,840 the P30 AMG Performance Package-
AMG Alcantara and leather trimmed sport steering wheel
Aluminum shift paddles
Carbon fiber interior trim
Top track speed of 174 mph (Electronically limited. Obey speed laws.)
AMG track-calibrated suspension system
AMG compound braking system
Staggered-width 18-inch AMG twin-spoke multipiece alloy wheels

For another 1,010 you get the lighting package-
Bi-Xenon Headlamps
Corner-Illuminating Foglamps
Heated Headlamp Washers

So for a total (so far) of 71,850 you get an AMG, of course that's without DVD Nav, a premium stereo (no 6 disk changer there, that's even more), bluetooth, IPod, etc, etc

Call me crazy, but when I buy a car called an AMG, I expect it to have the AMG performance package included with the badging.

thebigjimsho
03-10-08, 07:04 PM
I was hoping you'd volunteer this information on the C63 but as a salesmen will hold info just to make your point and even bait and switch which doesn't work well in a thread.

Besides a base C is cheaper than the base caddy by $2K. And a whole lot lighter.

OK, and it's a ton smaller. Smaller than a Civic. Again, it's positioned between the C and E class. And while it's close to the C, it demolishes the E. So shove it.

Funny how this entire V2 forum turns to shit because of the douchiness of 1 or 2 posters. I just want to personally thank you for making this the most pessimistic board on the V2 anywhere on the internet. Absolutely disgusting.

NormV
03-10-08, 07:07 PM
I had to ask for stats, multiple times and even then they are not complete.

No stats on the E63 interior as they'd probably match or better V2. He brought it up!

He is glossing over how competitive the C63 is to V2 and on price it will be $10,000-$15,000 cheaper than V2.

Notice how he is just pricing it to the E63 to the gills

Norm


Tony keeps bringing up stat after stat that backs up all his "facts". Norm just comes with his boner for anything German.

thebigjimsho
03-10-08, 07:13 PM
He is glossing over how competitive the C63 is to V2 and on price it will be $10,000-$15,000 cheaper than V2.

How the f*ck do you know? Really? You're more full of shit than Tony could ever dream to be...

urbanski
03-10-08, 07:20 PM
time to vote somebody off the island?

NormV
03-10-08, 07:22 PM
Tony priced the E to the gills as if there is no premium on exclusivity that MB owners prefer.

Thanks!! So Tony is wrong is saying body work is an option.

Maybe one reason MB offers something for their cars as Caddy buyers surely do not. The P30 package adds to the value of the car as not many are made.
Unlike GM who says you can have any color as long as it's black. Oh, maybe a roof option. Nice performance option and weight savings.

Norm

:shens:


Every real current AMG has the optional AMG performance package for an additional cost. The more the AMG costs, the more the AMG package costs.

The cheapest SLK 55 - base model 64K ,

For an additional 6,840 the P30 AMG Performance Package-
AMG Alcantara and leather trimmed sport steering wheel
Aluminum shift paddles
Carbon fiber interior trim
Top track speed of 174 mph (Electronically limited. Obey speed laws.)
AMG track-calibrated suspension system
AMG compound braking system
Staggered-width 18-inch AMG twin-spoke multipiece alloy wheels

For another 1,010 you get the lighting package-
Bi-Xenon Headlamps
Corner-Illuminating Foglamps
Heated Headlamp Washers

So for a total (so far) of 71,850 you get an AMG, of course that's without DVD Nav, a premium stereo (no 6 disk changer there, that's even more), bluetooth, IPod, etc, etc

Call me crazy, but when I buy a car called an AMG, I expect it to have the AMG performance package included with the badging.

Cadillac Tony
03-10-08, 07:23 PM
I had to ask for stats, multiple times and even then they are not complete.

I used Google and MBUsa.com to find the stats I posted. You can do the same, and shouldn't need me to do your homework for you.


No stats on the E63 interior as they'd probably match or better V2. He brought it up!

I explicitly stated that the E-Class was almost identical in size the CTS- that's why I brought it up, genius- to point out that it is the more valid comparison, not the C63.


He is glossing over how competitive the C63 is to V2 and on price it will be $10,000-$15,000 cheaper than V2.

I haven't glossed over anything- I posted a list of options I copied directly from MB and noted in red which of those optional features was standard on the CTS-V. You wanted facts, and you got 'em- now that I've shown in black & white how many things MB charges extra for you're grasping at straws.

And please, enlighten me as to how you know what the price of a 2009 CTS-V is going to be. You talk about how much cheaper the Benz is, but really have NO IDEA because there is no pricing on the 2009 CTS-V yet. None. Zip. Nada. I post hard facts from MB's web site, you post hypothetical price comparisons, and you accuse me of misdirection? Please.


Notice how he is just pricing it to the E63 to the gills

Norm

Notice I said "I'll even leave things off that the CTS-V doesn't have like Distronic and electric trunk close". Here, I'll post it again:


Leaving off the items Cadillac doesn't offer (like Distronic cruise and electronic trunk closer), I come up with a price of $101,900 for a "not quite fully loaded" E63. Yikes. I'd love to configure one On-Line so I could be exact, but MB's web site won't let you build your own AMG and tells you to contact a dealer- I wonder why?


Here's a news flash: In order to make the E63 competitive in terms of equipment that comes standard on a CTS-V (like Navigation, Keyless Go, Bi-Xenon headlamps and Limited Slip, you have no choice but to price it to the gills- that's my whole point! Are you even reading this stuff before you reply?

:bang2:

HITMONEY
03-10-08, 07:28 PM
I had to ask for stats, multiple times and even then they are not complete.

No stats on the E63 interior as they'd probably match or better V2. He brought it up!

He is glossing over how competitive the C63 is to V2 and on price it will be $10,000-$15,000 cheaper than V2.

Notice how he is just pricing it to the E63 to the gills

Norm

Dude.

Read. It's fundamental.

What is being said here is that once you bring the option list of the C so it directly compares to what comes standard on the V, the C isn't so much of a deal.

Really, is it that hard to understand.

No one is slighting the Benz, it is a quality product. Just trying to make a fair comparison.

And it has already been rather eloquently established that you must have a grudge against your bank account to spend 60k on a C class... but to each his own.

First all you want is facts, then after they are given you give your opinion like... " MB does not use LSD on any of their AMG until recently. They really don't need it in most circumstances."

I am quite befuddled as how you cannot grasp to what is being said, but at the same time your ignorance to the discussion has yielded more information via Tony about the V... for that Norm, i guess i have to thank you... but really, thats enough. Thanks.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v114/hitmoney/Humor/tmyk.gif

NormV
03-10-08, 07:29 PM
time to vote somebody off the island?

Probably should leave the thread open until the numbers are in and some test done. Then the speculation will stop. :)


Norm

Cadillac Tony
03-10-08, 07:37 PM
Tony priced the E to the gills....

To prove the point that the MB base price gets you a stripper car- yep, I sure did.


... as if there is no premium on exclusivity that MB owners prefer.

There it is- finally. You pay extra for a meaningless 3 pointed star. A big, fat, chrome "Look at me, everybody- I overpaid for the 3rd worst rated car in long term reliability in this year's Consumer Reports" badge on your hood.

It's so hard to get you guys to admit that you gladly overpay for percieved status, but there it is in your own words.


Thanks!! So Tony is wrong is saying body work is an option.

Nope- check out the optional fender vents, wheels, and more on the SL55 AMG and many others at MB's site.


Maybe one reason MB offers something for their cars as Caddy buyers surely do not. The P30 package adds to the value of the car as not many are made.
Unlike GM who says you can have any color as long as it's black. Oh, maybe a roof option. Nice performance option and weight savings.

Norm

2005, 2006 and 2007 CTS-Vs were all available in 4 colors, with 3 interior choices. That's 12 color combos for the "counting challenged" in the audience.


Time to vote someone off the island?

Nah. This would almost be fun if he weren't so maddeningly dense, but throwing him out just makes it look like he's right. I would appreciate if he'd stop with the derogatory comments about Salesmen though and just debate the car, as I don't appreciate my integrity being called into question because of what I do for a living. I'm doing a job just like you do and happen to be damn good at it, so stop lumping me in with some idiot you met at a Kia Dealership 5 years ago. :)

HITMONEY
03-10-08, 07:43 PM
Ok, I mis-spoke, the Benz is getting slighted.

LMAO!

Anyway, I think the Conti Flying Spur comes better equipped than the V.... Amiright!!!

CIWS
03-10-08, 07:50 PM
until (all) the numbers are in and some test done. Then the speculation will stop. :)


This much I agree with.

NormV
03-10-08, 08:13 PM
Ask anyone in this market where would they like to bring their car in for service and caddy dealership is not at the top of the list. So along with the buying experience actually spending time in a car that looks close on paper to others might be the selling point. That is where we are going to spend the most of the ownership time. Until you have driven these cars or have familiarity saying one is superior is purely subjective and might not even be close to reality, especially if it is coming from a salesmen. That is why I tried to get some facts as Tony thinks that at no level does a German car compete, that is entiely false! There has got to be some niche but you'll never hear it from him. Some of you guys take that line

Automotive history will tell you about building as long as their black. :)

Your going win new V2 owners over on Cadillac name brand by itself. Got to have a halo car to draw them in. Besides the cars that fair the worst in quality are usually the ones with the latest models. MB has had it's glitches and caddy is just getting out of one. Cadillac's quality is good because they have not introduced a new model with volume since when, 2003 or 2005? they only have 3.5 models to turn over compared to 5 or more for most German makes.


Tony opened his about German car owners just roll over and take and it simply not the case. Need to really compare standard features like vented seats on the E63 that are not offered on V2. What would it cost to implement vented seat in the V2? Probably thousands if you can find someone to do it.


Norm


Dude.

Read. It's fundamental.

What is being said here is that once you bring the option list of the C so it directly compares to what comes standard on the V, the C isn't so much of a deal.

Really, is it that hard to understand.

No one is slighting the Benz, it is a quality product. Just trying to make a fair comparison.

And it has already been rather eloquently established that you must have a grudge against your bank account to spend 60k on a C class... but to each his own.

First all you want is facts, then after they are given you give your opinion like... " MB does not use LSD on any of their AMG until recently. They really don't need it in most circumstances."

I am quite befuddled as how you cannot grasp to what is being said, but at the same time your ignorance to the discussion has yielded more information via Tony about the V... for that Norm, i guess i have to thank you... but really, thats enough. Thanks.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v114/hitmoney/Humor/tmyk.gif

HITMONEY
03-10-08, 08:24 PM
So we have moved on from actually comparing the cars to the dealer experience.

Thats a whole new subject, and one, I would probably agree with you on.


And again, I urge you to read what has been written... No where does Tony opine "that at no level does a German car compete".

I think thats what you are getting out of it somehow, but that is not what is being said.

Also, don't fool yourself into believing that you alone are the only one with German car experience here.

CIWS
03-10-08, 08:39 PM
Ask anyone in this market where would they like to bring their car in for service and caddy dealership is not at the top of the list.


One of my coworkers drivers a MB.


http://www.ciws.net/images/stsvandcl500.jpg


His dealership experiences locally are usually "no more loaner cars available, sorry" and he's spoken three times with their parts department trying to track down an ECM for his car and they haven't even bothered to call him back with any info.

As with almost any make of car, Cadillac, MB, BMUU, or whomever, it's more to do with the individual dealership and their service than the brand. Some dealerships are great and others suck.

NormV
03-10-08, 08:42 PM
At this price level it plays a significant role but like I said also it is driving car that will seal the deal or not.

Tony has said nothing positive about other makes and only boasts Cadillac. To make the sale you really need to put yourself in your customer's shoes or you'll never see their shoes, just their soles as they are walking out the door.


So we have moved on from actually comparing the cars to the dealer experience.

Thats a whole new subject, and one, I would probably agree with you on.


And again, I urge you to read what has been written... No where does Tony opine "that at no level does a German car compete".

I think thats what you are getting out of it somehow, but that is not what is being said.

Also, don't fool yourself into believing that you alone are the only one with German car experience here.

Cadillac Tony
03-10-08, 08:45 PM
I never said MB was a lousy car- in fact, somewhere in this train wreck I said it was a fine product but overpriced. All I'm doing is providing a counterpoint to your clearly German biased propaganda.

You say people would rather go to MB for Service, yet Cadillac was the highest rated car company in Businessweek's Customer Service All-Star rankings last year. http://bwnt.businessweek.com/interactive_reports/customer_satisfaction/index.


....especially if it is coming from a salesmen.

*sigh* It's getting old, Norm.


Tony opened his about German car owners just roll over and take and it simply not the case. Need to really compare standard features like vented seats on the E63 that are not offered on V2. What would it cost to implement vented seat in the V2? Probably thousands if you can find someone to do it.

Are you sure about the 2009 V not having cooled seats? Like, really super sure? I'll give you a hint: It does.

Also, please notice that I said "Cooled" seats, and not "Ventilated seats" (like MB uses) because it's superior technology. The Cadillac system uses the "Pull" effect to remove hot air from the seat, which creates a cooling effect. MB uses a "Push" type system that blows cabin air over an element and on to the passenger- while it does provide a cooling effect, it is nowhere near as noticeable or effective as the pull technique. Here's a nifty article on the science of cooling seats: http://delphi.com/pdf/techpapers/2007-01-1193.pdf

I can keep this up all day. If you want to judge Cadillac and Mercedes based on the realities of 1995 then go right ahead and continue- Or, you can broaden your mind a bit and be open to the fact that Cadillac has come a long way in 10 years and the Imports no longer enjoy the technological superiority they once did. Your choice, but one will continue to make you look silly.

Cadillac Tony
03-10-08, 08:48 PM
Tony has said nothing positive about other makes and only boasts Cadillac. To make the sale you really need to put yourself in your customer's shoes or you'll never see their shoes, just their soles as they are walking out the door.

You're doing all the talk for MB, so I'm just tossing the rebuttals out.

HITMONEY
03-10-08, 09:12 PM
.....
Tony has said nothing positive about other makes and only boasts Cadillac. To make the sale you really need to put yourself in your customer's shoes or you'll never see their shoes, just their soles as they are walking out the door.

Helloooooo....

May I garner your attention to the very top left of your screen.
This is a Cadillac Forum... Not the place to be for alot of other make praise.

This isn't about Tony being a car salesman.... but if you want it to be then ok...

We, or most of us are all adults here with varying car buying experience in our past... some more than others. I probably fall right in the middle of the spectrum with 3 brand new car purchases and more used/certified cars than I can remember off the top of my head.

That being said, and Tony cover your eyes... I have not once yet delt with a salesman with more knowledge about his product than Tony. He doesn't have to come in here and do forum battle to earn a living.. I'm sure he would make the power bill if he were never to set foot in CF again.

He doesn't have a bunch of clone clowns coming in and sayiing how great he is to deal with and how great he was after the sale, at least not until this post. He spends the time in here because he is passionate about his product and all you can do is treat him like a stereo typical car lot statue.

I think he has proven his knowledge of his product and exhibited a passion for it here. Your inuendos as to the contrary, well just make you look foolish and more of a MB fanboy than he is a Cadillac one. from what i can tell he knows more about MB than even you, or at least he will go find out.

I have not bought a car from him, but I am planning on it, so I can't testify as to that, but so far so good. At least I know he knows his product.

So can we get beyond this point? We all know Tony is a Cadillac Sales Person.

Ok Tony, you can uncover your eyes.

NormV
03-10-08, 09:13 PM
I instruct performance driving for a handful of clubs and have owned European cars in the past. We don't get any type of Cadillac owners on the except for the occasional CTS-V. So I have many hours over the 15 years in all types of cars. From awd, rwd, to quasi race cars so I have a good feeling about different chasis types and how the manf tuned them. Except for brakes, which are not used in a proper conservative matter, is usually the weakest link after the driver.

The newly found hp sedans are just amazing and usually way over their drivers ability that is why they are at these schools, not only for fun. I sure hope GM offers a driving academy for it's V2 owners as some us could have used one with V1. :)

The most performance enthusiasts are the German makes.

I can't keep up from my phone browser all day. :)

Watch your step next time you make fun of the other ant hill. Might be more going than meets the eye. ;)

Norm

Cadillac Tony
03-10-08, 09:19 PM
Watch your step next time you make fun of the other ant hill. Might be more going than meets the eye. ;)

Norm

^I have no idea what this supposed to mean.

Not only do I make a living selling Cadillacs, but I personally love them as well (there's two of 'em sitting in my garage). Whether I'm on a Cadillac forum or not, if I see someone posting out of context comparisons or misinformation about my product than I'm going to call them on it, plain and simple. I know I'll never change your mind, but I hope some level headed people considering an Import might read through this thread and perhaps have their mind changed about the perceived superiority of the German marques over Cadillac.

HitMoney is right that I was making a good living with Cadillac long before I discovered CF, and I was a member here long before I became an advertiser. This forum is a place where I share useful tech tips and info with current owners and occasionally pick up an extra sale, not my main source of income. Hit, I'm looking forward to getting together again when your new V arrives, and hopefully we can have a few more beers than we had time for at the Ft. Lauderdale meet. :thumbsup:

HITMONEY
03-10-08, 09:45 PM
I instruct performance driving for a handful of clubs and have owned European cars in the past. We don't get any type of Cadillac owners on the except for the occasional CTS-V. So I have many hours over the 15 years in all types of cars. From awd, rwd, to quasi race cars so I have a good feeling about different chasis types and how the manf tuned them. Except for brakes, which are not used in a proper conservative matter, is usually the weakest link after the driver.

The newly found hp sedans are just amazing and usually way over their drivers ability that is why they are at these schools, not only for fun. I sure hope GM offers a driving academy for it's V2 owners as some us could have used one with V1. :)

The most performance enthusiasts are the German makes.

I can't keep up from my phone browser all day. :)

Watch your step next time you make fun of the other ant hill. Might be more going than meets the eye. ;)

Norm

Ok, I am also a Porsche enthusiast, My last was a Dave White Racing prepped 993 Cab.. I too was an instructor on track days for the local POC.
So I have spent plenty of time on the other ant hill... but i fail to see how this makes a hill of beans or mountains out of ant hills if you must.

There were no Cadillacs worthy of a track day before the CTS-V... ever, so it is not surprising that you don't see many Cadillacs at track days... doh.

But I am sure you have seen plenty of Corvettes, Vipers, and Mustangs as well as Ferraris, Lambos, and a horde of Mini Coopers..... but I tell you what I don't see too many of.. in fact can't remember ever seeing a MB out there. Hell, I was just at a Homestead track day 3 weeks ago and i even saw a Jeep Cherokee SRT out there, but not one MB or M5 either for that matter.

So what's your point?


For shits and grins, my 993...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v114/hitmoney/Porsche/smaller04.jpg

And my Viper sitting next to the 993... See, I have no bias, i just like to go fast.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v114/hitmoney/Toys/DennisToys011.jpg

NormV
03-10-08, 09:56 PM
I thought you were pretty deep into your any hill. :). Just got to come out and see the light ever so often.

Norm



^I have no idea what this supposed to mean.

Not only do I make a living selling Cadillacs, but I personally love them as well (there's two of 'em sitting in my garage). Whether I'm on a Cadillac forum or not, if I see someone posting out of context comparisons or misinformation about my product than I'm going to call them on it, plain and simple. I know I'll never change your mind, but I hope some level headed people considering an Import might read through this thread and perhaps have their mind changed about the perceived superiority of the German marques over Cadillac.

HitMoney is right that I was making a good living with Cadillac long before I discovered CF, and I was a member here long before I became an advertiser. This forum is a place where I share useful tech tips and info with current owners and occasionally pick up an extra sale, not my main source of income. Hit, I'm looking forward to getting together again when your new V arrives, and hopefully we can have a few more beers than we had time for at the Ft. Lauderdale meet. :thumbsup:

Cadillac Tony
03-10-08, 10:20 PM
Wait.......what?

I think you're trying to say that since I own and sell Cadillacs I'm biased, right? Sure, I'll give you that- it doesn't make me any less knowledgeable though, nor does it change any of the facts I've posted about the Benzes. :)

For the record: They're a fine car. Many of them are fast, and a few are pretty good looking- I still think they're horribly overpriced, and they should be ashamed to charge extra for features like iPod connections and Navigation on a $90,000 car. Hopefully some people who might get hooked in by their low "Base" prices will read through the facts I've posted here and learn a little about how overpriced they are for what you really get.

HITMONEY
03-10-08, 10:28 PM
Wait.......what?

I think you're trying to say that since I own and sell Cadillacs I'm biased, right? Sure, I'll give you that- it doesn't make me any less knowledgeable though, nor does it change any of the facts I've posted about the Benzes. :)

For the record: They're a fine car. Many of them are fast, and a few are pretty good looking- I still think they're horribly overpriced, and they should be ashamed to charge extra for features like iPod connections and Navigation on a $90,000 car. Hopefully some people who might get hooked in by their low "Base" prices will read through the facts I've posted here and learn a little about how overpriced they are for what you really get.

I wouldn't be too offended Tony of being accused of being Cadillac biased, there are much worse things...

Imagine how hard these guys have it...
http://www.kia-forums.com/

Cadillac Tony
03-10-08, 10:40 PM
:lol:

I remember a while back there was a link to a Prius forum with a "kill" section- Now that's comedy gold. :histeric:

NormV
03-10-08, 11:05 PM
And $80,000+ is reasonable for an sts-v?


Norm


Wait.......what?

I think you're trying to say that since I own and sell Cadillacs I'm biased, right? Sure, I'll give you that- it doesn't make me any less knowledgeable though, nor does it change any of the facts I've posted about the Benzes. :)

For the record: They're a fine car. Many of them are fast, and a few are pretty good looking- I still think they're horribly overpriced, and they should be ashamed to charge extra for features like iPod connections and Navigation on a $90,000 car. Hopefully some people who might get hooked in by their low "Base" prices will read through the facts I've posted here and learn a little about how overpriced they are for what you really get.

HITMONEY
03-10-08, 11:10 PM
And $80,000+ is reasonable for an sts-v?


Norm

Getting you to stay on one point is akin to getting a 13 year old with ADD who just pounded a Red Bull to sit down and read Moby Dick.. the hard cover edition while the baby sitter is vacuuming in a mini-skirt.

:bonkers:

NormV
03-10-08, 11:30 PM
Sts-v is closer to the E63 than V2 is. Different part of the forum though.

Norm


Getting you to stay on one point is akin to getting a 13 year old with ADD who just pounded a Red Bull to sit down and read Moby Dick.. the hard cover edition while the baby sitter is vacuuming in a mini-skirt.

:bonkers:

thebigjimsho
03-10-08, 11:34 PM
And $80,000+ is reasonable for an sts-v?


Norm


Sts-v is closer to the E63 than V2 is. Different part of the forum though.

NormJust for the record, I don't think $80G for an STS-V and $100G for an XLR-V is reasonable. But that means absolutely NOTHING in this argument. So, stick to point...if you can.

NormV
03-10-08, 11:51 PM
I agree. But there is more similarities than differences. Tony brought it up! :)

Wait until we start disecting the other part of this thread, the M3.


Norm


Just for the record, I don't think $80G for an STS-V and $100G for an XLR-V is reasonable. But that means absolutely NOTHING in this argument. So, stick to point...if you can.

CTSV_Rob
03-11-08, 12:10 AM
:lol:

I remember a while back there was a link to a Prius forum with a "kill" section- Now that's comedy gold. :histeric:
Funny stuff Tony.

What would be even funnier would be to see a CTS-V in the Prius "kill" thread...

xshrpshtr
03-11-08, 12:49 AM
How old is Norm? Are there any missing Nazi guards thought to be living in Ohio?

Cadillac Tony
03-11-08, 02:04 AM
I agree. But there is more similarities than differences. Tony brought it up! :)

Norm


I did? Funny, because I thought I said the E63 is a more valid comparison to the CTS-V than the C63, but maybe my memory's fading faster than my hair.

The STS-V is larger in practically every measurable way than the E63, and is also a much softer tuned car- in my opinion they aren't competitors. Good try, though. :thumbsup:

Cadillac Tony
03-11-08, 02:05 AM
Getting you to stay on one point is akin to getting a 13 year old with ADD who just pounded a Red Bull to sit down and read Moby Dick.. the hard cover edition while the baby sitter is vacuuming in a mini-skirt.

:bonkers:

:histeric:

You're killin' me tonight, man.

CIWS
03-11-08, 07:04 AM
And $80,000+ is reasonable for an sts-v?


Norm

It's not a Mercedes or BMUU. It's 80K (2008) fully loaded with the 5.1 stereo, disk changers, bluetooth, ext audio/video input, lane departure warning, HUD, blind spot warning, brembo brakes,suspension, and all the other goodies.

Now whether one considers that too much, ehh that's an individual's choice. But at least Cadillac is giving you the whole ball of wax on the price of their V car. Not selling you a "S" and letting you add stuff to get it to a "V"

parexa
03-11-08, 08:33 AM
Even Clarkson didn't like C63. :D

dqw1
03-11-08, 10:16 AM
Unreal. I went to MB site and found it maddening that you had to pay for for every option on an AMG. I didn't believe when it was said here you had to option out an AMG. Granted, it was an E63 AMG I built. After 3-5 clicks I was up to $97k just adding basic options that should be standard. I like the AMG cars but I'm rethinking this now. If the C63 also has to be built like the E63, MB is out their F*ing minds.

Cadillac Tony
03-24-08, 12:56 PM
For those people who wonder why the CTS should be compared to the 5 series:

http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/mar2008/bw20080314_713158.htm

v84life
03-31-08, 01:37 AM
Thanks Tony...... GM is coming back:cloud9:

GNSCOTT
03-31-08, 07:20 PM
CTS coupe will compare nicely to an M3 and the M3 will only be short about 135HP.

NormV
03-31-08, 09:06 PM
The Coupe may advertise sporty but will not compete with the M3 as sports car. Think pumped up G35 coupe or jaguar HF.

Probably be closer to 50 wheel horsepower difference in the end. Power to the ground and how aggressive the ecu protects the engine and transmission along with that "W" word, weight will be the ultimate comparison for performance. If the sts-V setup is any hint there will be allot left on the table. :)

Norm



CTS coupe will compare nicely to an M3 and the M3 will only be short about 135HP.

StealthV
04-02-08, 12:32 AM
What's the value of the dealership sales and service experience in this equation?

CIWS
04-02-08, 08:22 AM
What's the value of the dealership sales and service experience in this equation?


It certainly has value. Service, long term, definitely more than sales.

GNSCOTT
04-02-08, 01:20 PM
The Coupe may advertise sporty but will not compete with the M3 as sports car. Think pumped up G35 coupe or jaguar HF.

Probably be closer to 50 wheel horsepower difference in the end. Power to the ground and how aggressive the ecu protects the engine and transmission along with that "W" word, weight will be the ultimate comparison for performance. If the sts-V setup is any hint there will be allot left on the table. :)

Norm

Sorry, i was referring to the CTS-V coupe that will probably come out when the regular coupe does.

NormV
08-19-08, 09:39 AM
Cadillac needs to do a nice promotion like this one. Or will just have trukk do it! :)

http://www.amg-360.com/

Norm

LITTLEELVISDAN
08-20-08, 01:53 PM
MB is a fine car. Just ask all of the Taxi drivers in Amsterdam and other parts of Europe. They laugh at us paying such inflated prices for what they call a dressed up taxi.

:Poke:



:hide:

LITTLEELVISDAN
08-20-08, 02:00 PM
Just having Fun NormV :-)

MB has had reliability issue ever since Chrysler got involved with them. They are working out of a hole but it is no secret just about anyone in the know will stear you away from a used MB. I personally am not a MB or BMW fan. Don't know why, but that's just me. I am also not a pure pro American car either. I think Nissan has relialibility issues as well. I am hopeful the GT-R will do for Nissan what the STS-V did for GM. To bring their standards up that high so quickly only shows good things to come for the Nissan (GT-R) and Cadillac (09-2010 CTS-V and V coupe).

thebigjimsho
08-21-08, 12:52 AM
The STS-V also cures cancer, removed Russian troops from Georgia and, according to LED, corrects erectile dysfunction...

v84life
08-21-08, 02:52 AM
The STS-V also cures cancer, removed Russian troops from Georgia and, according to LED, corrects erectile dysfunction...

:histeric:

CIWS
08-21-08, 09:00 AM
The STS-V also cures cancer, removed Russian troops from Georgia and, according to LED, corrects erectile dysfunction...

That's why Ben Stein is so happy :D

LITTLEELVISDAN
08-21-08, 12:06 PM
The STS-V also cures cancer, removed Russian troops from Georgia and, according to LED, corrects erectile dysfunction...

That's why Ben Stein is so happy :D
I wasn't sure if you all would catch that over here on the CTS side. I didn't really think you guys were that quick on the uptake. Ok, so which one of ya had a Trans/Camaro sittin in the front lawn growin up? :suspect: CIWS???:canttalk:

:)

thebigjimsho
08-21-08, 07:28 PM
I wasn't sure if you all would catch that over here on the CTS side. I didn't really think you guys were that quick on the uptake. Ok, so which one of ya had a Trans/Camaro sittin in the front lawn growin up? :suspect: CIWS???:canttalk:

:)hahaha stick around...

vperl
08-26-08, 09:38 AM
I am sure that the Pricing and trim level must be posted by GM any day now. If the CTS-V is to grab hold of the market segment they need to sell out the first years production or get real close , some say that is 8,000 or so vehicles.

Yes, other vehicles look interesting if the CTS-V is sold by GM at a price even close to that segment

NormV
10-21-08, 06:29 PM
Looks like the tubers know where to put their money. Funny is Renntech and other names on MB and BMW will help with residuals. :)

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/10/21/carlsson-tunes-the-mercedes-benz-c63-amg/


Norm


Just having Fun NormV :-)

MB has had reliability issue ever since Chrysler got involved with them. They are working out of a hole but it is no secret just about anyone in the know will stear you away from a used MB. I personally am not a MB or BMW fan. Don't know why, but that's just me. I am also not a pure pro American car either. I think Nissan has relialibility issues as well. I am hopeful the GT-R will do for Nissan what the STS-V did for GM. To bring their standards up that high so quickly only shows good things to come for the Nissan (GT-R) and Cadillac (09-2010 CTS-V and V coupe).