: Microsoft drops a bombshell!



Blackout
02-21-08, 02:34 PM
http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/2008/02/micropen2.jpg (http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2008/feb08/02-21ExpandInteroperabilityPR.mspx?rss_fdn=Press%20Re leases)

Someday in the distant future, your grandkids will be hugging their Microsoft Robot Friend, browsing the Weboverse on Internet Explorer 29, and going to a rock concert held by Steve Ballmer's head, and they'll have never known the evil, nasty Microsoft we grew up with. Starting today, Microsoft has dropped a bit of a bombshell on the computing community by jumping on the "open" bandwagon and altering the way they do business with third-party developers. According to a wordy press release issued by the company, the Redmond giant will begin embracing an open attitude by publishing documentation for all of its "high-volume product" APIs free of charge, will detail patents it holds and applications that cover its protocols (to avoid nasty, Linux-like mixups (http://www.engadget.com/2007/05/14/microsoft-linux-and-others-violate-235-of-our-patents/), we assume), and will provide a "covenant not to sue open source developers for development or non-commercial distribution of implementations of these protocols." Sound like big news? They've got a lot more to say on the matter -- hit the read link and learn all about cuddly new Microsoft.

NOT ON MY WATCH
02-21-08, 02:49 PM
Suuure...now they want to start playing nice.

Now that they have so much market share because their monopolistic practices drove many earlier competing operating systems and computer manufacturers out of business.

Now that open systems are starting to look more appealing to business users / large corporations.

Now that they've got full bank accounts.

Bastages.

I buy as few products of theirs as possible. If I could get my networked laser all-in-one at home to fully work with Linux (network scanning functions won't work under Linux with my particular AIO), I would dump the Vista on my wife's laptop and XP on my desktop. I have a dual boot setup on my desktop and always use Linux unless I need to do scanning. Unfortunately my work laptop is XP and there's nothing I can do about that.

Blackout
02-21-08, 03:07 PM
Enjoy linux while you can because with this announcement this could be a VERY bad thing for linux

The Tony Show
02-21-08, 03:09 PM
Microsoft is a product of the free market economy- they had a superior product and took over the market as a result. They made billions by keeping their software secrets closed and protected, as they should have.

This is a neat announcement though, and I'll be interested to see what comes of it.

JTraik
02-21-08, 03:25 PM
Microsoft is a product of the free market economy- they had a superior product and took over the market as a result. They made billions by keeping their software secrets closed and protected, as they should have.

This is a neat announcement though, and I'll be interested to see what comes of it.

Agreed... MS is the current flagship of capitalism, no wonder Mac is the choice of liberals.

Microsoft puts out a topnotch product in nearly every field and they are certainly not afraid to barge their way into a new one... I have always been a supporter of MS... they have never really stepped out of line and have continued to provide me with a great product, so I am happy.

Blackout
02-21-08, 03:28 PM
Agreed... MS is the current flagship of capitalism, no wonder Mac is the choice of liberals.

Microsoft puts out a topnotch product in nearly every field and they are certainly not afraid to barge their way into a new one... I have always been a supporter of MS... they have never really stepped out of line and have continued to provide me with a great product, so I am happy.
I've been happy as hell with my old Xbox, my Xbox 360, and my Zune. To date I've never had a problem with any Windows OS so in my eyes they are A-OK

NOT ON MY WATCH
02-21-08, 03:54 PM
Those of you who think Microsoft garnered so much market share due to superior product need to do a lot more research on the subject.

The Tony Show
02-21-08, 04:14 PM
Betamax was superior to VHS in every way, but Sony's business model sucked so it failed. Part of the reason Blu-Ray is doing so well is Sony doesn't want to repeat history, so they're paying off all the studios and retailers to back Blu-Ray exclusively.

It's not always the superior product that wins, but that's life.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
02-21-08, 04:39 PM
Can someone explain this for me in layman's terms?

RippyPartsDept
02-21-08, 05:06 PM
Can someone explain this for me in layman's terms?

MS used to be evil... now they're trying to be good (or look like it... only time will tell)

don't get too worked up about this... remember the age old saying:
"actions speak louder than words"

although i hope they're not playing some gambit here
it would be a nice change for once

JTraik
02-21-08, 07:24 PM
Those of you who think Microsoft garnered so much market share due to superior product need to do a lot more research on the subject.

I dont know who you are gathering this assumption from, but this certainly is not what I think. Microsoft has risen to the top through genius marketing strategies. As an individual who does not fall victim to clever marketing strategies, I have always chosen Microsoft for their superior product.

NOT ON MY WATCH
02-21-08, 07:40 PM
I dont know who you are gathering this assumption from, but this certainly is not what I think. Microsoft has risen to the top through genius marketing strategies. As an individual who does not fall victim to clever marketing strategies, I have always chosen Microsoft for their superior product.

Your age has not allowed you to experience the issue, like many of us older folks have. Therefore, you need to research the issue instead of relying solely on current media reports and your current experience.

Just the tip of the iceberg from a US Court decision...there are many, many other issues.

"409. To the detriment of consumers, however, Microsoft has done much more than develop innovative browsing software of commendable quality and offer it bundled with Windows at no additional charge. As has been shown, Microsoft also engaged in a concerted series of actions designed to protect the applications barrier to entry, and hence its monopoly power, from a variety of middleware threats, including Netscape's Web browser and Sun's implementation of Java. Many of these actions have harmed consumers in ways that are immediate and easily discernible. They have also caused less direct, but nevertheless serious and far-reaching, consumer harm by distorting competition.

410. By refusing to offer those OEMs who requested it a version of Windows without Web browsing software, and by preventing OEMs from removing Internet Explorer — or even the most obvious means of invoking it — prior to shipment, Microsoft forced OEMs to ignore consumer demand for a browserless version of Windows. The same actions forced OEMs either to ignore consumer preferences for Navigator or to give them a Hobson's choice of both browser products at the cost of increased confusion, degraded system performance, and restricted memory. By ensuring that Internet Explorer would launch in certain circumstances in Windows 98 even if Navigator were set as the default, and even if the consumer had removed all conspicuous means of invoking Internet Explorer, Microsoft created confusion and frustration for consumers, and increased technical support costs for business customers. Those Windows purchasers who did not want browsing software — businesses, or parents and teachers, for example, concerned with the potential for irresponsible Web browsing on PC systems — not only had to undertake the effort necessary to remove the visible means of invoking Internet Explorer and then contend with the fact that Internet Explorer would nevertheless launch in certain cases; they also had to (assuming they needed new, non-browsing features not available in earlier versions of Windows) content themselves with a PC system that ran slower and provided less available memory than if the newest version of Windows came without browsing software.

By constraining the freedom of OEMs to implement certain software programs in the Windows boot sequence, Microsoft foreclosed an opportunity for OEMs to make Windows PC systems less confusing and more user-friendly, as consumers desired. By taking the actions listed above, and by enticing firms into exclusivity arrangements with valuable inducements that only Microsoft could offer and that the firms reasonably believed they could not do without, Microsoft forced those consumers who otherwise would have elected Navigator as their browser to either pay a substantial price (in the forms of downloading, installation, confusion, degraded system performance, and diminished memory capacity) or content themselves with Internet Explorer.

Finally, by pressuring Intel to drop the development of platform-level NSP software, and otherwise to cut back on its software development efforts, Microsoft deprived consumers of software innovation that they very well may have found valuable, had the innovation been allowed to reach the marketplace. None of these actions had pro-competitive justifications.

411. Many of the tactics that Microsoft has employed have also harmed consumers indirectly by unjustifiably distorting competition. The actions that Microsoft took against Navigator hobbled a form of innovation that had shown the potential to depress the applications barrier to entry sufficiently to enable other firms to compete effectively against Microsoft in the market for Intel-compatible PC operating systems. That competition would have conduced to consumer choice and nurtured innovation. The campaign against Navigator also retarded widespread acceptance of Sun's Java implementation.

This campaign, together with actions that Microsoft took with the sole purpose of making it difficult for developers to write Java applications with technologies that would allow them to be ported between Windows and other platforms, impeded another form of innovation that bore the potential to diminish the applications barrier to entry. There is insufficient evidence to find that, absent Microsoft's actions, Navigator and Java already would have ignited genuine competition in the market for Intel-compatible PC operating systems. It is clear, however, that Microsoft has retarded, and perhaps altogether extinguished, the process by which these two middleware technologies could have facilitated the introduction of competition into an important market.

412. Most harmful of all is the message that Microsoft's actions have conveyed to every enterprise with the potential to innovate in the computer industry. Through its conduct toward Netscape, IBM, Compaq, Intel, and others, Microsoft has demonstrated that it will use its prodigious market power and immense profits to harm any firm that insists on pursuing initiatives that could intensify competition against one of Microsoft's core products. Microsoft's past success in hurting such companies and stifling innovation deters investment in technologies and businesses that exhibit the potential to threaten Microsoft. The ultimate result is that some innovations that would truly benefit consumers never occur for the sole reason that they do not coincide with Microsoft's self-interest."

JTraik
02-21-08, 08:53 PM
Your age has not allowed you to experience the issue, like many of us older folks have. Therefore, you need to research the issue instead of relying solely on current media reports and your current experience.

Just the tip of the iceberg from a US Court decision...there are many, many other issues.


Fair enough... however it doesn't take much research to realize that MS is just a modern day Canergie Steel/Standard Oil Co. The fact remains that everything MS competes with, they make a better product even if they weren't on the innovation end.

AlBundy
02-21-08, 09:02 PM
Very good info.

Sinister Angel
02-21-08, 10:04 PM
Ok, so people found it advantageous to follow Microsoft's requirements. Is there anyplace where Microsoft is forcing people to buy their stuff?

If follow the line of tripe that Microsoft is somehow "bending" the forces of capitalism, raise your hand. After you do that, lower half way and punch yourself.


will detail patents it holds
FYI, detailed information about patented inventions/technologies are already detailed in the said filing

NOT ON MY WATCH
02-21-08, 11:12 PM
Yes, there were plenty of places where Microsoft was forcing people to buy their stuff. Read the quote I posted and do more research online. That's all I have to say about this. Choose to ignore the truth at your own peril.

JTraik
02-21-08, 11:36 PM
Yes, there were plenty of places where Microsoft was forcing people to buy their stuff. Read the quote I posted and do more research online. That's all I have to say about this. Choose to ignore the truth at your own peril.

This really only applies to ignorant computer users. A truly informed and well versed computer user is not forced to use any type of operating system, software or any particular type of hardware.

I understand where you are coming from and what you are trying to say however you are expecting everyone to be an educated consumer... I am saying that on the same token you need to be an educated user to the same degree.

If you are feeling you are being forced into using Microsoft... its your own damn fault for not educating yourself on a functional aspect. Is that not the point of capitalism??? Everyone needs to learn to fend for themselves and use their f***in brains. I make sure I have as much understanding as possible of what I am getting into before I do it.

To an informed user you shouldn't have to look at the economics of the situation but rather the functionality of what your getting into. An informed user can go to whatever platform they want if need be. Companies like Microsoft make leaps and bounds with an idiot user base which a lot of people are. Once people become more informed on the functionalities of these products they are going to start running into more problems.

The only way to really fight back is for people to start realizing that they don't actually NEED anything from MS... everything they need is in multiple flavors, they just don't know it.

MS has been playing fair in the game of capitalism, the more regulations and restrictions we put on them... the closer we move to socialism, and I say F*** THAT!

The Tony Show
02-21-08, 11:38 PM
There's one important fact left out of that ruling: Netscape Navigator sucked ass.

Windows is Microsoft's product, and they can do with it what they please- if they want to include IE with Windows, it's their right to do so as the software manufacturer. If a consumer absolutely had to have a browserless OS, they should have bought a Mac.

Yet another example of consumers blaming their failure to properly research a purchase on the seller, just like the fools screaming for the Government to bail them out of their ARM loan on a house they could never afford anyway.


*edit*

JTraik beat me to it. :lol:

JTraik
02-22-08, 12:00 AM
JTraik beat me to it. :lol:

Not at all, thank you for expounding! I just wish people would freakin wise up to how capitalism really works you know??? You need a balance between your consumer and your seller to reach capitalism's full potential. Instead we have stupid consumers whining and complaining that they are getting screwed over. So what, it is their own fault... people are all about reducing government control while sitting back in their financed, ultra deluxe, lazy boy recliner and then the next day are crying to the gov't to control those big mean CEO's at the ginormous Acme corporation.

Hey, I make my fair share of consumer mistakes too... but I blame myself for them. Consumers control the market, not the corporations... when will everyone understand this??

Chicano-Mexicano
02-22-08, 12:03 AM
Agreed... MS is the current flagship of capitalism, no wonder Mac is the choice of liberals.

And Linux is for us Commies. :p

JTraik
02-22-08, 12:18 AM
And Linux is for us Commies. :p

No linux is for the informed user... for the people who utilize what linux has to offer. Mac tries to convey this image that they are the alternative to Mega Corp. Computers by providing an artsy, ergonomic, trendy system... what a load of crap that is, thats why I hate Mac... mac tries so hard to be foolproof that... I don't even want to get into it!!!

Mac is the communist's computer if I have ever seen one. The Peoples Computer!!! Everything in a Mac is from mac!!! Limited 3rd party software compatibility... virtually no 3rd party hardware available. You can't build your own Mac... its all proprietary BS. Unlike a PC where there is and always will be a 3rd party solution to every aspect of it.

Eric Kahn
02-22-08, 01:30 AM
I dont know who you are gathering this assumption from, but this certainly is not what I think. Microsoft has risen to the top through genius marketing strategies. As an individual who does not fall victim to clever marketing strategies, I have always chosen Microsoft for their superior product.

you evidently have never had to deal with win 95, or the ultimate horror (before vista) windows ME, that even microsoft finally admitted was a piece of crap that did not work right

windows 98 was pretty good but still crashed at random times for no reason whatsoever

I have had great luck with XP so far, and heard and read nothing but bad stuff about vista, such as that your older MICROSOFT software might not work with your wonderful new MICROSOFT operating system, anything that does run will be at least 20% slower (BAD news if you play games)

Linux is not a viable alternative for 99% of people using computers, it requires you to know basic computer programing and live with the fact that you will have very limited choices as to what hardware you can use with your computer due to lack of linux drivers and deal with the fact that it does not like certian hardware in your computer (my brother, a computer programmer specializing in real time simulation software and unix, can not get linux to work properly in an AMD based machine)

Chicano-Mexicano
02-22-08, 09:25 AM
No linux is for the informed user... for the people who utilize what linux has to offer. Mac tries to convey this image that they are the alternative to Mega Corp. Computers by providing an artsy, ergonomic, trendy system... what a load of crap that is, thats why I hate Mac... mac tries so hard to be foolproof that... I don't even want to get into it!!!

Mac is the communist's computer if I have ever seen one. The Peoples Computer!!! Everything in a Mac is from mac!!! Limited 3rd party software compatibility... virtually no 3rd party hardware available. You can't build your own Mac... its all proprietary BS. Unlike a PC where there is and always will be a 3rd party solution to every aspect of it.

I think Tux has something to say. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/62/Linux-commie.jpg/102px-Linux-commie.jpg

JTraik
02-22-08, 10:30 AM
I think Tux has something to say. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/62/Linux-commie.jpg/102px-Linux-commie.jpg

HAHA! Must be the new version... "Linux: Sickle and Hammer"

Chicano-Mexicano
02-22-08, 11:54 AM
acutually it's a play on linux Red Flag only released in Eurasia (Russia and China).

Cadillacboy
02-22-08, 12:14 PM
LOL, nobody likes m soft ,poor gates :p

Blackout
02-22-08, 12:46 PM
you evidently have never had to deal with win 95, or the ultimate horror (before vista) windows ME, that even microsoft finally admitted was a piece of crap that did not work rightYour bringing up Windows 95 and saying that it was a piece of crap? Windows 95 was the stepping stone for what modern OS's are based off of. You have to think back to 1995 and think of what computers were like back then. Computers were still relatively new and were still catching on so of course there will be issues with early software and hardware because not a lot of people knew as much about computers then versus today. As for ME I really never heard anything good about it and I've never even used it so I'd have to say that the masses can't be wrong that it's a POS.


windows 98 was pretty good but still crashed at random times for no reason whatsoeverWindows 98 was a great OS. I never once had an issue with it on our old PC or my old laptop.


I have had great luck with XP so far, and heard and read nothing but bad stuff about vista, such as that your older MICROSOFT software might not work with your wonderful new MICROSOFT operating system, anything that does run will be at least 20% slower (BAD news if you play games)I still to this day fail to see why everybody hates on Vista. Every program I used on my old laptop running XP Home edition works just fine on my new Vista powered laptop. I have yet to have compatibility issues with anything so far, and everything works great. People just bitch and moan because Vista requires more RAM then XP does so for the clueless people that don't know this they bitch and moan and say it's junk. Once again this is where the knowledge of the everyday joe on computers shows its true colors.


Linux is not a viable alternative for 99% of people using computers, it requires you to know basic computer programing and live with the fact that you will have very limited choices as to what hardware you can use with your computer due to lack of linux drivers and deal with the fact that it does not like certian hardware in your computer (my brother, a computer programmer specializing in real time simulation software and unix, can not get linux to work properly in an AMD based machine)From what I hear Linux is supposed to be a pretty nice OS but at the same time you suffer from limited software and hardware support, if you don't have a lot of computer knowledge then your S.O.L. and on top of it with the people I know who do run Linux it seems that they are forever having to mess around with settings and all types of other crap just to get them to run properly. I just never really got as to why you would go through so much trouble to do Linux just so that you don't have to use Windows. I do touch typing, cruise the internet, download movies and music, and on the rare occasion play a game and everything works just fine

RippyPartsDept
02-22-08, 05:10 PM
WOW... lots of opinion stated as fact
i'll stick by my initial response of: lets wait this one out
and let "actions speak louder than words"

The Tony Show
02-23-08, 10:19 AM
WOW... lots of opinion stated as fact


On an Internet forum? That's crazy talk! :lol:

Microsoft is where it is because of a revolutionary product, aggressive marketing and ruthless business practices. Now that he's a billionaire, Bill and Melinda Gates give more to charities working to cure disease and hunger in 3rd world countries than any other individuals in the world, yet everyone hates Microsoft because to some paranoid folks, they represent "The Man", "The Big Corporation", "The System", or whatever you want to call it.

Boo hoo for you- Now that I'm done typing this on my computer running Windows XP, I'm going to go play my Xbox 360. Microsoft FTW.

Lord Cadillac
02-23-08, 11:56 AM
I admire the Gates' for donating so much to charities.. They really do donate amazing amounts of money. That's pretty cool.. I almost moved to Washington and worked for Microsoft in the late 90s.. I moved to Apple for a more elegant computing experience... And here I am... That's all.

NOT ON MY WATCH
02-25-08, 12:06 AM
Windows 95 was the stepping stone for what modern OS's are based off of. You have to think back to 1995 and think of what computers were like back then. Computers were still relatively new and were still catching on...

Wow. Windows 95 was not the stepping stone or foundation for modern OSs. Computers were not still relatively new and still catching on in 1995. Read some computer history and try again. GUI OSs and computers were in common use many years before your personal experience.

Kev
02-25-08, 01:56 AM
This really only applies to ignorant computer users. A truly informed and well versed computer user is not forced to use any type of operating system, software or any particular type of hardware. I have to take exception to this statement. There are (have been) a few proprietary programs with no equal in their field which would only run on a Windows platform. These are typically specialized, high dollar programs used in niche professions of course. Believe me, if there had been functional alternative OS's to choose from they would have been utilized. Instead, we and others were forced to become knowledgeable or "truly informed and well versed computer user"s in order to overcome the deficiencies of the various MS/Windows OS's from as early as DOS 6.0 to the present in my particular experience.

That being said, I have grown to both appreciate and despise MS over the years, I am reconciled to make the best of them and overall have a satisfied experience. I still use Win 98se and XP Pro sp2 with few problems now that I have things dialed in.

Blackout
02-25-08, 10:16 AM
Wow. Windows 95 was not the stepping stone or foundation for modern OSs. Computers were not still relatively new and still catching on in 1995. Read some computer history and try again. GUI OSs and computers were in common use many years before your personal experience.

I meant with it's presentation and ease of use. Go back to Windows 3.1 and those OS's and tell me that they are superior to what Windows 95 was. Windows 95 might not have been the best OS in the world but at the time there wasn't anything better

NOT ON MY WATCH
02-25-08, 11:49 AM
Blackout - you're not going back far enough. Read up about computing in the 1980's - early 80's through late 80's. Read up about what companies and people were involved with developing (and stealing - and no, I'm not talking about Microsoft) GUI-based OS. Read up about the first multitasking OS for consumers and business users. There were OSs in the 80s that were indeed better than Windows 95. Windows 95 is an unnecessarily bloated OS with unnecessarily locked down aspects - and that's me being generous.

RippyPartsDept
02-25-08, 05:38 PM
Blackout, I bet that you didn't know that back in the os/2 wars days Steve Balmer was going around putting in 'crash disks' into every os/2 machine that he could (spreading FUD on purpose basically) to gain a competitive edge.

I wonder what kind of crap he's up to now? OH he's running the show over there... ha.

BTW: On the whole, I tend to agree with Kev. (you said it better than i could have... i would have gone with love/hate but appreciate/despise is much more the actual feelings)

OffThaHorseCEO
02-26-08, 03:13 PM
the main issue with microsoft "being evil" was the whole internet exlorer/netscape issue

in laymens terms microsoft told computer vendors "you can not remove internet explorer from windows before you sell it"

- they did not say Netscape could not be added to the system
- they did not say IE could not be removed by the customer once the system was bought


Would it be unreasonable for cadillac to say to a dealership "You can not remove the northstar from this DTS before you sell it, you may include another engine with the sale and the customer may put whatever engine they want in it, as long as they buy the car with a northstar inside"

i dont think thats unreasonable.

if the demands were so unreasonable, so unbearable then microsoft wouldnt be here today. Intel would have laughed in their face, Computer vendors would have switched to apple etc etc.

Why didnt they? The demands were reasonable, "ok so we have to do this and this but the demand for windows is so great, we cant afford not to do it" - Simple as that

no matter how you break it down, microsoft was a strong business

NOT ON MY WATCH
02-26-08, 03:37 PM
It's now official: the current generation of 20-somethings is completely brainwashed. Welcome to hell - they will soon be our hosts.

Microsoft used its monopoly power in illegal ways - court decisions have confirmed that. Not only that, but Microsoft tried to weasle out of it by introducing fake evidence at trial. Forced application integration was just part of their wrong-doing.

Don't try and compare a monopoly-created computer operating system to a single car manufacturer that is not a monopoly. Monopolies are different and have to follow different rules. I don't care that you either don't understand that or don't care about that - that's the law. Might doesn't make right.

RTFH (replacing the usual M with an H for HISTORY).

RippyPartsDept
02-26-08, 05:26 PM
Would it be unreasonable for cadillac to say to a dealership "You can not remove the northstar from this DTS before you sell it, you may include another engine with the sale and the customer may put whatever engine they want in it, as long as they buy the car with a northstar inside"

i dont think thats unreasonable.

A better analogy would be that cadillac tells dealers that they cannot change the radio before selling it. Swapping out an engine in a car would be like modifying or changing the kernel of the windows OS. The browser is just a small part of the overall os that lets the pc communicate with the internet at the software level. (look up the OSI model sometime)

anyways NOMY, you're totally right, and as one of those 20-somethings i'm sorry for not educating my peers enough... we don't really care that much until we can't use the damn thing... sounds like a lot of users of automobiles... they never do the regular maintenance and end up on the side of the highway cursing the auto manufacturer for making a crappy car when they should have been checking the fluid levels, etc.

so, now that i've said that... i found a recent article about this issue

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,1000000121,39336511,00.htm
http://www.vnunet.com/crn/news/2210427/microsoft-pledge-questioned

NOT ON MY WATCH
02-26-08, 07:51 PM
...anyways NOMY, you're totally right, and as one of those 20-somethings i'm sorry for not educating my peers enough... we don't really care that much until we can't use the damn thing...

Thanks for saying that, rippyparts. :)

OffThaHorseCEO
02-26-08, 08:42 PM
It's now official: the current generation of 20-somethings is completely brainwashed. Welcome to hell - they will soon be our hosts.

Microsoft used its monopoly power in illegal ways - court decisions have confirmed that. Not only that, but Microsoft tried to weasle out of it by introducing fake evidence at trial. Forced application integration was just part of their wrong-doing.

Don't try and compare a monopoly-created computer operating system to a single car manufacturer that is not a monopoly. Monopolies are different and have to follow different rules. I don't care that you either don't understand that or don't care about that - that's the law. Might doesn't make right.

RTFH (replacing the usual M with an H for HISTORY).

So since we're so stupid and misinformed why don't you inform and educate us with your version of facts instead of continuously talkin junk.

RippyPartsDept
02-27-08, 11:15 AM
another disappointment with my generation is that they always want you to do their research. I constantly find myself asking friends if they have googled the question that they're asking me because I don't know the answer, but I bet I could figure it out if I spent a bit of time online researching it.

So here's some stuff I quickly dugg up for you since I'm such a nice guy. :yup:

via: everything2.com (http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=853410)

Why Microsoft® is Evil

Below are listed the reasons I belive Microsoft to be evil. If you have an additional argument, please post your opinion below. If you want to post a counterargument, please post it in Why Microsoft is Not Evil. I don't want this to become a giant rant session; keep it logical and courteous, please.

Predatory Business Practices: Hardware Binding
Microsoft has largely gotten where they are in the IBM-compatible PC world by creating agreements with computer manufacturers to sell their operating system (OS) with the computer. (I will not go in to Apple's role in this). They are staying on the top through this same mechanism. Find a major PC manufacturer: Dell, HP, Gateway 2000, Toshiba, or others and see how many of them will sell you a new PC without some flavour of Windows on it. (Yes, Apple and a minority of others will.) The prevalence of manufacturers who only sell computers with Windows is staggering and, because of this, has come to be known as the "Microsoft Tax." This was the basis for the Windows Refund Day, which met with much resistance from the manufacturers. Indeed, new computers now ship with words to the effect of: "We sell Windows with this computer. If you don't want to use Windows, you can give us the computer back and we'll give you a refund. You cannot get a refund only on the OS." (My Toshiba laptop came with such an agreement.)
The Microsoft Office Suite, along with other Microsoft programs also comes bundled with a great number of new PCs. This is also a large part of the reason that Office is so prevalent now. How many PCs come bundled with Star Office or Corel Word Perfect Office? Check the price lists and compare the prices to MS Office.

Prevalence
The user base of Microsoft software is tremendous. More accurately, it is unparallelled. No software or hardware company on the face of the Earth has as many users as Micrsoft does. This is my (personal) first and foremost reason to begin to dislike and distrust Microsoft. It has unsurpassed power and influence. It could do just about anything it wants in the software world and, due to its monetary influence, in the physical world as well. Does it? So far, we've only discussed how it got its influence. How is it using its power?

Predatory Business Practices: Misuse of User Base
Microsoft uses its power to reinforce its position and gain money. Yes, those are the goals of a business, but are these the goals that a superpower should have? Above, we have seen that Microsoft has unparallelled control within the world. Thus, it is a superpower. Indeed, the case can be made that it is a monopoly in the PC market. How are they using this monstrous advantage? Quelling consumer choice and gaining more money and power. Bundling Internet Exploitable (IE) with Windows was a step. Most casual IE users I know use it because it's a) already there and b) starts the fastest of any browser out there for Windows. Why is it already there? Because it's bundled with Windows. Why does it start so fast? Because it's an "inseperable" part of the operating system (suuure) and the core components and libraries are loaded when you start the computer. [Additionally , (and this really torques me off) IE is required in order to obtain updates to the OS. Security updates as well as fun things such as screen savers and themes. You now really have to at least have IE installed. Another step: Corel brought forth documents showing that Microsoft deliberately threw in incompatabilities in Windows 3.1 in order to keep their product, DR-DOS, from running Windows, thus eliminating it as a threat to their monopoly. (http://www.drdos.com/fullstory/final4.html) Let us not forget .Net/C-sharp, the not-Java. C-sharp is effectively Java, with some Microsoft-specific "enhancements" thrown in and the platform independence taken out. .Net puts the platform independence back in to a degree, and adds some more features to the Microsoft offering. Glorified, bloated RPCs, anyone?

Predatory Business Practices: Support
Since when can a company get away with providing essentially no tech support with their product? I remember back to the first Gateway 2000 box my family got. We got huge manuals detailing most everything that could be done on the computer (The Windows and MS-DOS books were each in excess of 400-600 pages. Now, you get about 20-50 pages of basically installation instructions.) The online help is of no help, either. That is all of the "This is Your Mouse" variety. (Not quite true for all cases, but close). In order to learn what all you can do with your win.ini file or registry for instance, you have to purchase a miriad of books. Even then, not all details are covered. If something isn't in your online help or brochure-manual, then you must pay to get the privilege of calling tech support more than three times. (for my copy of NT, anyhow). If you have an OEM copy, then watch out! You must contact your vendor. (a vast majority of users.)

Microsoft: It's not Just Software
Contrary to what some people believe, Microsoft does not just produce software. Ever heard of MSN? Hotmail? Microsoft is an ISP and an email provider. How about the Intellimouse or the Natural Keyboard? They produce hardware, too. How about MSNBC? They are into television and cable. Heard about the X-Box? They do console game systems. The list of disparate fields Microsoft is in goes on and on. Microsoft is not just a monopoly, it's a conglomerate as well. (Has anyone checked in on this from a legal standpoint?) Not only that, but even the software produced should be examined more closely. Microsoft produces the drivers many users use, the Operating System (core components e.g. the kernel), the Graphics system (X in unix), the window manager, the browser, on up to applications such as IIS and Office. There is nothing preventing Microsoft from putting in code to give themselves an advantage and competitors a disadvantage at any link along the chain from hardware to applications. This is possibly the scariest to those like me who tend to be lightly paranoid. Unseen APIs or calls to give Microsoft apps a leg up, enhance the performance of their hardware, or surreptitiously monitor the user without the user ever knowing.

if(browser.ident != "Internet Explorer"){
error("This application has performed an illegal operation and will be shut down.");
}

They Charged For a Beta of Windows 2000
Charging for a beta? Now that's evil. (*grin*)

This is just a sampling of the ideas floating about in my head. Basically, Microsoft is doing what almost every other business in its position would do. If, say, Sun were in such a position, this node would be Why Sun is Evil. (If you believe this to be true, you are more than welcome to create such a node. I might even have something to add. (*grin*)) We consumers ultimately decide what businesses can and cannot do: by using our minds and dollars (denarii, lire, pesos, francs, marks, etc.). If you find a business's practices to be disturbing, tell them. That should be your first action. If that does not work, then vocally put your money somewhere else. It's the corporations' world--but only if we let them have it.



also see: kmfms.com (http://www.kmfms.com/) for a much longer and better documented/sourced article as to why MS is so bad. (with lots of links too!)

just a couple of juicy quotes:


From a Software User's Perspective
Bloat
Why is it that Microsoft's products keep mushrooming in size with each new release always requiring significantly more disk space and more processing power than the last time? They might claim it's because of all the new features they add each time, but that's only half the story. The new features and the increased processing requirements are designed to fuel the process of perpetual upgrades. This is Microsoft's way of rubbing Intel's back so that Intel will give Microsoft preferential treatment when it comes out with new chip specs. It's also Microsoft's way of convincing consumers that their newer product versions are better because they are so much bigger. Their new features are often superfluous but users must still deal with the overhead required by the features even though most will never use the features.


From a Technical Perspective
Closed "standards"
It is commonly known that Microsoft's applications are given an unnatural performance advantage on Windows because they take advantage of secret APIs which give them the extra speed they need. It's rather disturbing that Microsoft can't compete on a level playing field and feels the need to tip the field because they own it. What's even more disturbing is that they are willing to sacrifice stability and good design principles by "integrating" applications with their OS just to make their applications run faster.
Mutilation of existing standards
Unfortunately, it's not enough for Microsoft to make up its own standards which it keeps unpublished. It also feels the need to hijack existing standards and break them especially if it will help them keep their OS monopoly. For example, Microsoft felt threatened by the Java standard because it was OS independent so it attempted to twist the standard into something Windows specific, all in the name of giving customers what they want.



Common Defenses of Microsoft Debunked
Microsoft is ahead because their products are superior
Microsoft's products are generally not superior. As an example, Windows is more bloated, much less stable, less secure, much more expensive, and lacking much of the capabilities of Linux, one of its competing operating systems. The real reason that Microsoft is ahead is that their marketing is superior and because they leverage their existing market share to keep consumers locked into Microsoft specific solutions.

so there you have it... any questions?

Sinister Angel
02-27-08, 01:21 PM
Predatory Business Practices: Hardware Binding
Ok, it's a business agreement. Don't want to participate, don't. Microsoft isn't holding a gun to your head.

Prevalence
*gasp*!!!!!! A company with many customers?!?! SAY IT AIN'T SO!!!!!! Stupid hippie

Predatory Business Practices: Misuse of User Base
That douchebag even said it himself "Microsoft uses its power to reinforce its position and gain money. Yes, those are the goals of a business"
Microsoft is a business. Retard.

Predatory Business Practices: Support
Here's an idea, *******: If you don't like it, don't buy the product. Don't be bitching because their marketing mix works.

Microsoft: It's not Just Software
Really? Microsoft produces more than software? No f'ing way!
What does that have to do with anything. Check on them being a conglomerate from a legal perspective? What, are you some whiny anti-capitalist bitch with sand in your vagina? Yes, yes you are.

But wait, this little twat writing this tripe has this to say



We consumers ultimately decide what businesses can and cannot do: by using our minds and dollars (denarii, lire, pesos, francs, marks, etc.). If you find a business's practices to be disturbing, tell them. That should be your first action. If that does not work, then vocally put your money somewhere else. It's the corporations' world--but only if we let them have it.


Awww snap. That's right, if you don't like it, DON'T BUY IT!

NOT ON MY WATCH
02-27-08, 01:45 PM
Wrong answers, guys. Monopolies cannot use their power in illegal ways. Everyone commenting "just don't buy it" or "don't participate" doesn't understand business law or anti-trust law at all. Many of you are commenting from an obviously uneducated position. Don't pretend you know what you're talking about, because your smart alec responses are not founded in logic or law.

The latest news on MicroSuck: http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/27/technology/eu_microsoft.ap/index.htm?postversion=2008022706?cnn=yes

NOT ON MY WATCH
02-27-08, 01:48 PM
P.S.: I suppose I need to post proof of the US moon landings for some of you - because some of you seem to be of a mindset that if you didn't experience it first hand then it must not be true - or that you must be spoon-fed information about the past instead of looking it up yourselves.

RippyPartsDept
02-27-08, 04:33 PM
I'M NOT BUYING IT, OK?
I just want to help others see why they shouldn't either.

NOT ON MY WATCH
02-27-08, 04:37 PM
Heh...OK, guys. I originally wasn't going to comment, but decided to and it looks like I'm not going to change certain minds on the subject. Rippy, thanks for your posts and I'll catch the rest of you on other threads.

OffThaHorseCEO
02-27-08, 06:21 PM
im not being hostile, please dont think i am.
I simply feel that if you dont like it, dont buy it, and if i like it I will.
Everything in that post above was opinion. I agree 100% with sinister angel
Predatory Business Practices: Hardware Binding
if someone feels that strongly about not having Windows, they should build their own system, but, most wont because they "dont know how". If you dont know enough to build a proper system, you probably dont know there are other OS out there
Prevalence
Sounds like a bit of haterade to me. Behind every successful person is a pack of haters huh?
Predatory Business Practices: Misuse of User Base
This header and the text below it dont really match, but my comment for this text is why not? Netscape could make their browser run faster in their OS too if they wanted to, oh wait, Netscape doesnt make operating systems does it? (if they do it must really suck cause ive never heard of it)
Predatory Business Practices: Support
If Microsoft still sent the big books theyd be evil for killing trees huh?
Microsoft: It's not Just Software
I love my Microsoft mouse, its the only wireless mouse ive ever used that had the right feel to it, goes forever on 1AA battery and connects to any USB port
I cant get enough of my Microsoft XBOX,

and speaking of not believing in the moon landing, isnt it normally these type of people who dont believe that kind of stuff:
"those like me who tend to be lightly paranoid"

Sinister Angel
02-27-08, 08:54 PM
Everyone commenting "just don't buy it" or "don't participate" doesn't understand business law or anti-trust law at all.

...surely you jest. Anti-trust laws are wrong

http://www.mackinac.org/article.aspx?ID=683