A week ago, I bought a clean 1990 Brougham with 135K on it for $650. The Olds 307 engine runs fine, but it is no match for the weight of the car. Two days ago, I bought a complete 1970 Olds 455 engine for $250. The only reason it was so cheap is because I bought it from a buddy of mine. I know that the engine will bolt to my existing mounts, and it will bolt to the 200R4 (yes, it will be living on borrowed time).

What I was looking for is any advice from someone who has actually performed this swap, or has a link to someone who has used an Olds 455 in place of the 307 in one of these cars. I’ve googled this multiple times, and the only decent links I have been able to find (regarding a 455 swap into a fullsize later model GM car) was a 1979 Cadillac Seville and another in a 1980’s Pontiac Bonneville.

I can give more specific info later this evening…time to get out of the office.

Thanks,
Roy

You're going to need a bigger radiator, and I know the exhaust is going to need to be modified. The 455 is physically wider than the 307, putting any small block olds in would be a "bolt in mod" but putting in a 455 will run you into snags here and there. The TH2004R is not on borrowed time, it's done the first time you put the pedal down more than 1/2 way. It's not meant to handle that kind of torque. I looked into putting a 455 into my 84 Olds 98 which is nearly identical to a RWD Deville/Fleetwood. I opted for a 350, it makes more sense. It's also very reliable, doesnt hurt the overdrive tranny, and gets reasonable fuel mileage. It even worked with the computer controls, although I am currently changing it to a chevy TBI setup. But since you already HAVE the big block.... I think that you should start up right away trying to find a 1980 or so (maybe 77-79, someone else can answer that better) with the 425 or 368 engine. That could get you a rearend, BOP TH-400 Trans, and the correct driveshaft. You're 455 would be much happier with the TH 400 and the 2.28 rear end ratio.

You could try joining the B-Body forum on yahoo, lots of guys there have put 455's into Olds 88s, Buick Lesabres, and lots of other previously 307 powered vehicles.

Aaron-

Shouldn't be a hard swap, if CAN, run duals, the goofy Olds crossover into one manifold to single sucks.

I do have a dual exhaust crossover for sale if you need it. From a 95 9C1 car, but one guy on here (78Vette?) put one on his Fleetwood (78 or so?) and didn't indicate any issues.

If you DO wanna keep singles, you can get a 76 Olds 98 crossover pipe and it should support up well, and then you will need some mods to connect up the cat to the manifold there. If you CAN, and are into it, you can run dual 2.5" pipes down one side without the cat, but EPA frowns on it. But there was ample room on my 85 Cutlass to do it.

I think the same motor mounts work, but they will need to be in the BBO positions, which likely are NOT drilled. But mount them to the engine, drop into place, mark it, take out and mount.... I used the factory Olds 307 computer on my 350 with no issues, it should be the same with the 455, but you might need to richen up the secondaries, but test first.

Yup, get a larger rad, diesels have larger, and factory oil coolers (might be a good idea to manage temps too, and toss in an external one also), get a 7 blade clutch fan (Ford 429's use same mounting as Olds on the fan).

It should be a relatively nice swap. If you are planning on upgrading the 200 4R (you WILL have to soon...), might wanna toss in a mild Lunati VooDoo cam (these are the most advanced grinds out there).

If you want to talk to my friend, who is a serious Olds guru, who has done lots of 455 swaps, contact me, I will give you his contact info. Any serious Olds fan needs to know this guy. Trust me.... Basically he runs low 10's with a 350 Olds running around 365 CID or do, 3500 lb car.... Single carb, no bottle, sees 7000 rpm.... And enough Olds parts to scare you.... The car will likely be nicely into the 9's very soon.... More mods coming....

You're going to need a bigger radiator, and I know the exhaust is going to need to be modified. I'm fairly confident that the stock radiator is large enough to keep the 455 cool. I definitely agree regarding the exhaust system. The 455 I bought has the stock crossover pipe that connects one manifold to the other. It is not damaged, and can be used when the engine is installed in the Cadillac. The 455 is physically wider than the 307, putting any small block olds in would be a "bolt in mod" but putting in a 455 will run you into snags here and there. I agree. The TH2004R is not on borrowed time, it's done the first time you put the pedal down more than 1/2 way. It's not meant to handle that kind of torque. I'm not going to argue with you on this one. :D The trans is fine at the moment, and is not particularly valuable, so if/when it grenades, I won't be surprised. I have several other vehicles that I can drive to work...I view the Cadillac as an oddball toy, not a daily driver that I will have to rely on daily. I looked into putting a 455 into my 84 Olds 98 which is nearly identical to a RWD Deville/Fleetwood. I opted for a 350, it makes more sense. It's also very reliable, doesnt hurt the overdrive tranny, and gets reasonable fuel mileage. It even worked with the computer controls, although I am currently changing it to a chevy TBI setup. I understand what you are saying. I plan to use the stock Olds 307 computer contolled distributor and stock Quadrajet....at least until the engine is installed, driven for a few hundred miles. But since you already HAVE the big block.... I think that you should start up right away trying to find a 1980 or so (maybe 77-79, someone else can answer that better) with the 425 or 368 engine. That could get you a rearend, BOP TH-400 Trans, and the correct driveshaft. You're 455 would be much happier with the TH 400 and the 2.28 rear end ratio.

You could try joining the B-Body forum on yahoo, lots of guys there have put 455's into Olds 88s, Buick Lesabres, and lots of other previously 307 powered vehicles. I'll check it out. Thanks Aaron!

Aaron-


I agree with your reasoning, but I am looking for more performance than a 2.28 gear ratio ratio will give me. I can get the 400 trans that was attached to this 455 engine for cheap....and I am not saying that I won't end up doing that. To give a brief background to this project, rather than retyping it again, here are a cut/paste of a few emails I sent to a buddy in the last few days...before I registered on this site. Also, my primary automotive hobby is trail-riding (built 4x4 vehicles...not rednecks driving through mud puddles/cornfields), etc. I'm in an organized/civilized 4x4 club....Ohio4x4.com. With that said, here is a cut/paste of a few emails sent regarding what I know/plan to do:

#1. Anyway, I bought the Cadillac on Sunday for $650. Super nice interior, vinyl top is not the best, paint is faded on the car, but it has zero dents/bondo in it.

It has a 5.0 liter 307 4bbl Oldsmobile engine (last year of carburetors for GM). The engine runs fine, but it only has 140 horsepower. It has 2.73 gears and a 200R4 OD. The 200R4 has a .67 overdrive. I spent much of yesterday driving it at 70 mph in drive (2.73 final drive ratio), and it is definitely not revving very high. The initial plan was to throw a cheap set of 4.10 gears in it for now, and figure out what I wanted to do regarding the engine. 4.10 rear gears x .67 = 2.75 final drive ratio....basically identical to driving it in 3rd gear with the 2.73's. I tossed around a couple options:

Option 1: High winding Chevy 350 w/ 4.10 gears.
Option 2: Low revving 455 Olds big block w/ 2.73 gears.

The 455 Olds is a bolt in replacement for the Olds 307. Same engine mounts, it will bolt to the 200R4...yeah, I know it would eventually kill the trans, but this isn't a daily driver).

I called Lambert yesterday to get a quote for the gear swap through his shop. This was in the afternoon. He was busy, so I told him I'd call back around 5:00 pm.

When I called back, he said it would be right around $300 labor w/ fluids, etc. While BS-ing with him, he advised that he has 2 complete Olds 455's in his garage....has had them for years, covered up, inside, etc. One is a 1970 model, the other is a '74-'76 based on the HEI ignition). He also has two 400 turbo transmissions that were bolted to the 455's. I plan to go and look at them someday this week.

The 200R4 has a universal bolt pattern bellhousing...all Chevy or BOP (or Cadillac for that matter) engines will bolt to it. The 350 Chevy would cost more up front to swap in, but hi-po parts are cheap. The Olds would cost less, bolt in easier (same mounts), but parts cost more if modifying it.....but due to having 105 more cubic inches, it doesn't need as many mods.

With 2.73 gears, overdrive, and a mild 455, I'm willing to bet that the car would not be horrid on gas on the interstate...@ 70 mph would be only be turning ~ 1500 rpm...and the 455 would not be working nearly as hard as a puny 140 horse 307.



#2: I paid Lambert $250 for a 1970 Olds 455 yesterday...I'll probably drag it home next weekend. It came from a Delta 88. It should have 9.0-1 compression...a good ratio for the street. The '72 & later engines only had 8-1 compression. The stock 455 heads flow better than my stock 460 heads on the exhaust side. With that said, I want to keep it cheap: Low rpm & maximum torque. There is no need to spin this engine above 4500-4800 rpm.

No need to read through all of this link, just scroll to the bottom for the dyno results. On the left shows a stock 455 with an Edelbrock Performer intake (basically an aluminum version of a stock 4bbl intake), stock cam, and headers. It made just over 400 HP from 4200-4700 rpm. Then they proceed to throw a buch of expensive parts at it trying to make a lot more power at high rpm....and after they throw all of that $$ at it, it makes less power under 3500 rpm than the stock engine did in basically stock form. How often is a street driven engine above 3500 rpm? Foolish in my opinion, but it wasn't my $$.

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tec...ild/index.html

The 4300 pound Caddy will never be a drag car....it looks anti-fast. Buford didn't really look like it would make a good trail rig either...........

#3: With the car’s pork considered, a 100 mph trap speed in the quarter mile would be a goal to shoot for. Ideally, you want to have the engine at it’s max horsepower rpm at the end of the ¼ mile in the transmission’s 1-1 ratio. As a ballpark figure, say the 455 would make it’s maximum horsepower @ 4500 rpm. With 28”-29” tall tires, the ideal ¼ mile performance gear ratio would be 3.73.

3.73’s: In drive @ 100 mph, with 3.73 gears, the engine would be spinning @ approximately 4400 rpm. With the 3.73’s and the overdrive ratio of .67, cruise rpm @ 70 mph would be between 2000-2100 rpm. If/when the stock 200R4 grenades, cruise rpm @ 70 mph in drive (400 trans) would be 3100 rpm…(uncomfortable for a big block).

4.10’s: 4.10 gears would put the engine @ 4900 rpm @ 100 mph in drive. Cruise rpm @ 70 mph with 4.10’s in overdrive would be between 2200-2300 rpm. If/when the stock 200R4 grenades, cruise rpm @ 70 mph in drive (400 trans) would be 3400 rpm…(way uncomfortable for a big block).

2.73’s: 2.73 gears would put the engine @ 3200 rpm @ 100 mph in drive. Cruise rpm @ 70 mph with 2.73’s in overdrive would be right at 1500 rpm. If/when the stock 200R4 grenades, cruise rpm @ 70 mph in drive (400 trans) would be 2300 rpm…(fine for a big block).


With a completely stock 455, single exhaust, and 2.73 gears, open diff, etc (basically the way the car would as soon as the engine gets in it), I’d predict the car to run 15’s @ roughly 90 mph.

With simply a good exhaust system and a few tweaks, I’d hope it could get to at least 14.9 in the mid 90’s. This would be equivalent to my old stock Lincoln Mark VIII.

With headers, an improved intake, 3.73’s with a posi/lock-righted rear end, I’d be tickled pink if it would run a 13.99…that would be a hair quicker than my GTO….it was hot as heck when I ran it at the track, but the best I could do was either 14.0 or 14.1…..I want to go search for those numbers if I ever posted them on the board.

No promises that I will succeed in this, but my goals would be 13.99 in the ¼ mile with a 100 mile per hour trap speed.

In summary, I think it would be funny to have a porky Caddy that was quicker than a “modern day muscle car.”


#4. 14.1 @ 100 mph is what I got out of it.

http://ohio4x4.fourwardmomentum.com/...ational+Trails

#5: [quote=Brad]I suppose you could always slap in new gears now and keep the 2.73 on the shelf if you ever had to swap in a TH400...........or I wonder how hard it would be to swap in a completely different rear axle. Drive it to work keep the 2.73 rear in it, when going to the strip slap in a 3.73/4.10 version. I just wonder how 2.73's would work on the strip though. [quote=Brad]

3.73's would probably knock close to a half second off the the ET (that's a lot) vs. the 2.73's.

I have already planned on getting another carrier & setting it up with either 3.73's or 4.10's (likely 3.73's......if I had went with a higher revving small block, 4.10's would be ideal). Once the other carrier was setup right, it would not take too long to change the carriers (and pinions obviously) a few times a year. I don't have any interest in swapping out entire axle housings...I'd rather have an extra ring-pinion & carrier lying around vs. an entire housing to trip over in the garage.

[quote=Brad]A set of cut-outs on the exhaust would be sweet, maybe even the electric ones. Keep it real quiet until you pull next to a ricer at a red light, flip a switch and uncork the 455. [quote=Brad] I had not thought of that idea...it would be amusing.
Budget plans:
$650 for the car
$250 for the engine
$150 for extra rear axle parts
$100 for a mini-spool (for the perfromance carrier)

$800 for a paintjob (Not me doing it).
$50 for stereo wiring (I have a couple high end amps and speaker boxes left from my first Mark VIII sitting in the basement).
$200 for slicks (may not even need them).
$500 for miscellaneous engine upgrades/exhaust.

$2700. Throw in another $300 for "miscellaneous" call it $3000. Most people would call it stupid. I call it a lot of beef for the buck.




Roy

I posted several minutes ago, and didn't see my post. I tried again and was advised that it was a double post. I still don't see the post...if it shows up twice, I apologize and will edit/delete one of them tomorrow.

Thanks,
Roy

Ok, got the swap details from a friend:

Remove SB Olds mounts from the 307, install on 455. Drop in place.... Easy! Same holes, all the holes were in the frame already, so no drilling either...

If you want headers, talk to my friend, he has several sets. I am told the engine clears everything like GM made it that way.

As my friend described, it is easier to fall off a horse than it is to drop a 455 in a B/D body....

If you want duals, I have the dual exhaust crossover, that is really about all you need short of the fat radiator (shoot for a 4 core, a 425 radiator would be bare minimum to use, and still probably too small). If you want headers, see my friend (near Milwaukee, WI), he has more info on Olds than you EVER would dream of.

Visit RocketRacing if you want more.

The guy shooting this vid is the guy you want to talk to, he is close friends with the guy who is driving the car in the video. And the only reason that car is going that fast, is because of me... :) The heads on it would not have happened if I didn't get these people together with the right person...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0FVtpFaKsA

Thanks N0IDH, I appreciate the info. I have heard that certain Olds 455 headers from another application would work with minor tweaking, but I'd like some info about the headers your friend has. I called Mondello last week, and they offer a set for a 455 in a Cadillac Brougham, but they were over $600.

I tried to pm you, but was advised "you have to have 30 posts to send a PM."

Thanks,
Roy

Regarding getting a larger radiator, it appears that a late 70's Cadillac with the 425 engine uses the exact same radiator as what I currently have. Measurements are round off: 3 core unit that measures: 30" x 17"

Also, this shows the same radiator for both applications as well:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/77-78-79-92-Cadillac-Fleetwood-Brougham-Radiator-V6-V8_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1638Q2em118Q2el1247Q QcategoryZ33602QQihZ016QQitemZ260210253124QQrdZ1QQ sspagenameZWD1V

Run the 200 until it blows, but grab the 400 as part of the 455 deal if you can. Does your Cad have the 7.5 or the 8.5 rear? That will make a big difference with its longevity.

I think this will be a great swap. I am thinking that you will need a slightly larger main fuel line. I seem to recall that BB cars got a larger diameter line than SB cars back in the day. Might be worth remembering if you are running into higher RPM stumbling when it is all done.

I vote for keeping it as stock looking as possible under the hood, except headers. No chrome, no open air cleaner. Use the stock 307 assembly. I think this car is going to rock.

Slicks won't be needed - there are very good DOT drag radials that will hook hard enough to break parts before they lose traction. With these, and preloaded airbags in the springs (higher pressure in the right), you probably won't need a posi.

Take pics!

Run the 200 until it blows, but grab the 400 as part of the 455 deal if you can. Does your Cad have the 7.5 or the 8.5 rear? It has a 28 spline 8.5" 10 bolt. That will make a big difference with its longevity.

I think this will be a great swap. I am thinking that you will need a slightly larger main fuel line. I seem to recall that BB cars got a larger diameter line than SB cars back in the day. Might be worth remembering if you are running into higher RPM stumbling when it is all done.

I vote for keeping it as stock looking as possible under the hood, except headers. No chrome, no open air cleaner. I agree. It may not be ideal for performance (initially), but I plan to stick the stock 307 distributor in the 455, and re-use the stock computerized Quadrajet. The computer only controls the primaries...the secondaries are mechanical. Eventually, I would want a vacuum advance HEI, and the carb would likely have to be modified for optimum performance. Use the stock 307 assembly. I think this car is going to rock.

Slicks won't be needed - there are very good DOT drag radials that will hook hard enough to break parts before they lose traction. With these, and preloaded airbags in the springs (higher pressure in the right), you probably won't need a posi.

Take pics!

Here are a few pictures that I took the day I brought it home:

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f169/78Buford/IMG_3391.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f169/78Buford/IMG_3384.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f169/78Buford/IMG_3385.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f169/78Buford/IMG_3386-1.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f169/78Buford/IMG_3387.jpg

Don't hook up, don't TRY to force it to be super fast, if the tires spin, LET THEM or back off, the torque spikes when you don't hook, the tires loose takes the force out of the things...

Watch out for Moneydello, he does have some good stuff, but not often worth his prices, he really capitolizes on the Olds market.

Shoot my friend Pete an email, get some talk going, tell him Tom sent you, (we talked last night about it). rocketmanpj ( at ) wi.rr.com. He can help you out a lot. Just let him know Byron confirmed the fitment and motor mounts works, clearing the AC and brake booster (in at least the Olds B Body), he knows Byron too (Byron is goquick on Performance Years website forums and Pontiactech.com, just let them know who sent you, we are all good friends been playing hot rod for YEARS....)

Pete said the Olds 455 is 1.3 inches TALLER than the 260/307/330/350/403. And of course, accordingly wider. Byron said the mounts are very easy, just use the SBO brackets on the BBO engine and you are good. He is pretty sure the mounting holes in the frame ARE predrilled, but my only concern is he might have got confused on Pontiac engines.... BUT, Pete can confirm if the BBO and SBO are the same size in the bottom end of the block. If so, it uses SBO mounting holes.

Yes, I forgot to mention the taller deck height of the 455. The passenger side valve cover MAY contact the HVAC box. A little custom clearancing may be needed (it will be obvious when you drop it in). Speaking of dropping it in, put the headers in place before you lower the engine in. This will make life much easier.

Are you keeping AC? You have to! It's a Caddy!:D

I've made two other posts this morning...one has a few pictures (but I can't see them yet...is there a delay in posting for new members)?

I will get into contact with the man you mentioned. Thanks guys!

Nope, no delay for anyone. It should post immediately. Post them up again...

You have to change to the motors mounts, radiator, etc, etc. That and upgrade your transmission to th400. But the bigger the better. Change the crossmember. I'm still waiting on my engine to be swapped. I'm using an Olds 350 from a 72 Cutlass. Check out www.442.com for all the details.

Why would he have to change the motor mounts?

I brought the engine home on Saturday.

1970 2bbl engine from a Delta 88. 9.0-1 compression. E heads (most certainly small valve units). 403 686 casting number on the driver side of the head. For my purchase price of $250, an aluminum Edelbrock 455 Torker manifold was included separately at no additional charge. The intake could use a good cleaning, but I'm not complaining about the price. :D I know the Torker makes more high rpm power, but I'd rather have a plain old Performer or one of the newer high rise dual plane manifolds that aren't advertised in Jegs/Summit for torque & throttle response at low rpm.

NODIH: I sent your friend an email a short while ago (regarding headers).

Thanks!
Roy

TTT
From my research it takes alot to get the 200r4 to take a 455. I'm gonna be in the same boat with you soon. I have a 455 for my 84 buick electra wagon. I'm using a 200r4 out of a 89 caddy as a core for the rebuild, and the stage 3 rebuild kit from ck performance. Also I will get a Buick Grand National servo. Then put a late 70s 455 q-jet on it, and call it a day. I could convert my 84 electronic crab to manual, but I don't believe i can do it by myself. Hit up http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/ they know the 200r4 inside and backwards.

Just remember, don't drag race and make it hook up. You hook and the driveline torque skyrockets!

Can for sure be done, but costs $$. You never saw 2004R's in trucks or behind 350's.

Good tip on the GN site, they are the guru's of making the 200 4R live...

I will have to take it down the 1320' just one time. :) But i have faith in this kit

$449
This comprehensive kit has been designed to provide you with all the necessary and practical, servicable "soft" parts needed when building a 2004R transmission for use with engines producing up to 800 foot pounds of torque.This kit is the most complete of its kind and eliminates the problems associated with not having the correct parts on hand during a rebuild.Kit includes:This package is designed to save you some money when rebuilding your transmission.This kit will save you $159.00.This kit includes:

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6 piece washer kit with 2 oversize sun shell washers
12 piece bushing kit
4 piece rear section selective end play washer kit
15 piece center section selective end play washer kit
All friction and steel plates
Updated 3 friction 4th clutch pack
6 friction 3-4 cluch pack with red lined racing frictions
Alto oversize red lined racing band with welded anchors
High flow filter assembly.
SHIFT RECALIBRATION KIT #24RSRK/A ($129.00)
HEAT TREAT PUMP STATOR TUBE #24RCC/PST ($34.99)
HEAT TREATED SUN GEAR SHELL #24RCC/SGS ($34.99)
HEAVY DUTY LOCK UP SOLENOID #29.99


My weak link is the rear end or driveshaft. I could put truck gears in my rear end. But all of that cost $$$$$$

BUT, Pete can confirm if the BBO and SBO are the same size in the bottom end of the block. If so, it uses SBO mounting holes.


You are 100% right. You can do more research at http://www.oldspower.com/

I have a 1995 cop car 8.5" (factory) disc brake rear end with 3.08's for sale if you are needing one. Make me an offer! I am in 61109 if you are close. It is an open diff though. I can take rear cover off for pictures of the gears if you need it. That would solve the rear axle problem. This out of a 95 Cop Car. I have the driveshaft too, but I don't think it will fit a D Body at all. But for the 7.5 to 8.5 a shop can shorten and rebalance it for fairly low cost.

Makes a killer bolt in for discs....

I get somthing like that down the road the main thing is just droping the 455 and a tweaked 200r4 in

you know were it is at! Unless I decide to use it on my FW!