: AJ-Question



rhw1
02-06-08, 06:41 PM
Would like your comment on problem below as I have read your authoratative posts on this issue.
99SLS with 72K with decel stall
Throttle body and IAC passages have been cleaned; only code is stall/near stall condition(1599).
Problem is intermittent(one or twice per week), but only happens on gradual decel when 800-900 rpm is reached; tach will drop to 400 rpm and usually recover to 1000 and then do the same thing repeatedly. It seems that engine can't run at this 800-900 rpm, but if under a more rapid decel and 700 rpm is reached engine runs fine. When the stall/near stall happens, I feel no missing or stumbling.
Thanks for your help.

Submariner409
02-06-08, 07:02 PM
It appears that AJ is out of the room, but I believe he will tell you that you have the classic symptoms of an impending CKP failure.

Do a search for CKP or Crankshaft Position Sensor. Many threads over the past years. Does this stall/near stall occur during late warmup or at any old time?

Not a difficult or expensive diy fix.

(BTW, does your car have an idle speed or throttle motor instead of cable drive to the lever?) Just a thought....of course there are several reasons for a stall condition, but the CKP is the one that jumps out most often......

codewize
02-06-08, 07:14 PM
That does kind of sound like CKP sensors but I wasn't under the impression that engine speed had anything to do with the stalling due to CKP sensors. The fact that it's condition AND RPM specific makes me second guess that.

BTW where is AJ?

Submariner409
02-06-08, 07:24 PM
Code, the reason I threw out the CKP thing is that the CKP problem is most prevalent during late warmup upon deceleration for traffic stops or turns, and the engine gets down to around 650-800 rpm and just flat dies: no shudder, nothing. You can't feel a thing except no gas and no steering.

rhw1's symptoms come close, so I aired it out......

tateos
02-06-08, 07:28 PM
Wasn't the CKP problem mostly on 2000-2003s?

rhw1
02-06-08, 07:42 PM
Submariner, I do feel the problem occurs during late warm-up.

AlBundy
02-06-08, 08:35 PM
.

BTW where is AJ?

Last time I saw him post was on Caddyinfo.com yesterday.

codewize
02-06-08, 08:36 PM
I was also under the impression that the CKP problems were 2000 - 2003.

Not saying it couldn't be, I'm just going over some things I think we know. It is a pretty inexpensive repair and you can DIY.

Ranger
02-06-08, 09:00 PM
The CKP problems ARE in the 2000-2003's. Rare on a pre 2000.

Sub, not sure if this is what you where asking in post #2, but the '99 has an IAC valve vs an ISC motor to control the idle. I'd pull the valve and be sure that the air passage is clear and that the valve is clean and not sticking closed.

eldorado1
02-06-08, 10:14 PM
Does it happen only on a coast down from higher speeds (45+) or low speeds too? (driveway)? It is most likely an FPR and/or fuel pressure problem.

AJxtcman
02-06-08, 10:35 PM
I was shoveling the almost 2 feet of snow we got today and then a little Fiero posting and some Caddy info, but I have some info for us all to think about.

We will call this DFCO (Decel Fuel Cut off).
ON decel the injectors may or can shut off. They will re-fire before the engine stalls. Low fuel pressure will cause a stall after DFCO. A leaky fuel pressure regulator will cause stalling in or after DFCO. A slow IAC will cause this stalling, but it should also stall if you turned on the AC if that was the case. The backfire valve if leaking will cause this also.

One other note. The Crank Sensors are NOT connected to the PCM on a 93 to 99 Northstar. They are wired to the ICM and that generates a signal that goes to the PCM.


DFCO info
RPM Limits
The VCM has a number of RPM limits that disable fuel if exceeded. The Cutoff RPM is the RPM at which fuel is disabled, spark is cut or the ETC begins limiting and the Resume RPM is the RPM at fuel is re-enabled.


P/N Fuel Cutoff RPM: If the current selected gear is Park or Neutral then this RPM limit is used.
P/N Fuel Resume RPM: If the current selected gear is Park or Neutral then this RPM limit is used.
P/N Fuel Resume RPM: If the current selected gear is Park or Neutral then this RPM limit is used.



Bad VSS Fuel Cutoff RPM: If the Vehicle Speed Sensor is bad then this RPM limit is used.
Bad VSS Fuel Resume RPM: If the Vehicle Speed Sensor is bad then this RPM limit is used.



Cutoff RPM Hysteresis: The amount the RPM must drop to disable the RPM Limiter.
RPM Hysteresis (Gear): The amount the RPM must drop to disable the RPM Limiter in Gear.
RPM Hysteresis (P/N): The amount the RPM must drop to disable the RPM Limiter in Park/Neutral.
Fuel Cutoff RPM (P/N) vs. ECT: The RPM Limit when in Park or Neutral.
Fuel Cutoff RPM (In Gear) Modifier vs. ECT: The RPM Limit when in gear is multiplied by this value (cold engine reduction).



Extreme Cutoff RPM: Fuel cut will enable regardless of other settings if RPM exceeds this value.
Extreme Resume RPM: If extreme cutoff is active, RPM must drop below this value to resume fuel.



Fuel Cutoff RPM vs. Gear: If the current selected gear is not Park or Neutral then this table is used to determine the current RPM limit.
Fuel Cutoff Delay vs. Startup ECT: This table determines how long the VCM uses the Fuel Cutoff RPM vs. Startup ECT table for the RPM limit test. After this delay has expired (varies with engine temp) the VCM uses the other RPM limits.
Fuel Cutoff RPM vs. Startup ECT: This table is used for the RPM limit whilst the Engine Run Time is less than the Fuel Cutoff Delay above.
Fuel Cutoff RPM - 1st Gear Reduce: When in first gear the RPM limiter can be reduced over time by using this table.



Fuel Cutoff RPM Reduction vs. ERT vs ECT: Startup RPM limit reduction in relation to engine run time and ECT.



RPM Limit - Spark: RPM Limit will use Spark if enabled.
RPM Limit - Fuel Cut: RPM Limit will use Fuel Cut if enabled.
RPM Limit - ETC: RPM Limit will use Electronic Throttle Control if enabled.
RPM Limit - Method Delay: RPM Limit will switch from spark/fuel cut to ETC after this time.



RPM Limit - Accel Coeff: Coefficient used to filter engine acceleration, lower numbers mean more filtering.
RPM Limit - Accel Thresh: RPM below the RPM Limit to begin Acceleration based RPM Limiting.
RPM Limit - Accel Max: Above this engine acceleration rate, acceleration based RPM limiting will begin.



RPM Limit Torque vs. RPM Delta vs. Gear: This is the commanded torque value based on the RPM error that controls the RPM limiter stability. Higher numbers mean faster acting limiter but more oscillation (instability) around the limiter RPM.
RPM Limit Lamp RPM: Engine Overspeed lamp will light above this RPM (if fitted).



ETC Limit Enable: This switch enables/disables Electronic Throttle Control engine speed limiting functions.
ETC Fuel Cutoff RPM vs. Gear: This table is used if an electronic throttle is fitted. It is an RPM limit that closes the throttle if exceeded.



Fuel Cutoff RPM: The RPM that fuel will be cut.
Fuel Resume RPM: The RPM that when fuel will resume.
Fuel Resume RPM Excessive: If excessive RPM limiter activity is detected then resume limits will switch to these values.


Deceleration Fuel Cutoff (DFCO)
DFCO can be broken down into 5 main modes of operation.


Qualifications to consider fuel cutoff (Enable)
Spark threshold/ ramp down values and enable Qualification hysteresis values while getting to fuel cut point. (Entering)
Spark values while in fuel cutoff (In)
Qualifications to stay in fuel cutoff (Exit)
Spark ramp up values to exit fuel cutoff (Exiting)

On later vehicles, DFCO will progressively cut fuel to each cylinder rather than the simpler on/off used on earlier vehicles.

DFCO Qualification
DFCO must pass a series of enable tests to even be considered. If any of the tests are not passed, the DFCO process will not be started. (Fuel is still on)

Fuel Tab - DFCO Enable Normal Section:


Temp: Engine Coolant temperature must exceed this value.
Enable Speed vs. Baro: The vehicle speed must exceed this value.
RPM vs. Gear Entry: Engine RPM must exceed table value.
TPS vs. RPM: Throttle position must be below this table value.
Map vs. Baro Entry: Map must be below this table value.


Fuel Tab - DFCO Enable Clutch Transition Section: (Not used on all models)
These values over ride ANY of the DFCO Enable Normal Section qualifications (Enable, Entering, Exit) if recent clutch activity has been detected.

These values will remain active for a short time period before reverting back to the normal qualifications.



Temp: Engine Coolant temperature must exceed this value.
Speed: The vehicle speed must exceed this value.
RPM: Engine RPM must exceed table value.
TPS: Alternate VCM %Throttle position Change must be below this table value.
Map: Map must be below this table value.
TPS Hyst: Adds to Alternate VCM %Throttle position Change value.


DFCO Entry:
Enable tests passed, VCM selects spark threshold/ ramp down values and Enable Qualification hysteresis values while getting to fuel cut. (DFCO is considered active and Fuel is still on)

Spark Tab - DFCO Entry, Active, Exit Spark Section:


Entry Threshold vs. RPM: This is the degree spark advance that must be reached to turn the fuel off.
Entry Blending vs. RPM: This is the spark ramp out rate to reach the Entry
Threshold vs. RPM spark value.
Spark is removed at a rate of 12.5msec at the Entry Blending multiplier value. If your current spark advance is 20 degrees @3000 rpm, your Entry threshold is 5 degrees, and your removal rate is 0.010, the VCM will remove .2 degrees (20 x 0.010) of spark every 12.5 milliseconds until the Entry Threshold of 5 degrees is reached.

Fuel Tab - DFCO Enable Normal Section:


Speed Hyst: Subtracts from Enable Speed vs. Baro table value.
RPM Hyst: Subtracts from RPM vs. Gear Entry table value.
TPS: Adds to TPS vs. RPM table value.
Map Hyst: Adds to Map vs. Baro table value.



Enable Temp: ECT must be above this to enable DFCO.
Disable Temp: If ECT drops below this while DFCO is enabled, then DFCO will disable.
Enable RPM: RPM must be above this to enable DFCO.
Disable RPM: If RPM drops below this while DFCO is enabled, then DFCO will disable.
Enable Speed: Speed must be above this to enable DFCO.
Disable Speed: If Speed drops below this while DFCO is enabled, then DFCO will disable.
Enable Cylair: Cylair must be below this to enable DFCO.
Disable Cylair: If Cylair goes above this while DFCO is enabled, then DFCO will disable.
Enable TPS: TPS must be below this to enable DFCO.
Disable TPS: If TPS goes above this while DFCO is enabled, then DFCO will disable.


In DFCO:
All of the qualifications have been met, Spark Cut Threshold has been reached and the fuel has been turned off. VCM sets the spark advance and looks for a reason to exit DFCO.

Spark Tab - DFCO Entry, Active, Exit Spark Section:

Active Advance vs. RPM A: This is the degree of spark advance while the fuel is turned off.

Min TPS for Table A: TPS must exceed this value to use table A.
Active Advance vs. RPM B: This is the degree of spark advance while the fuel is turned off.
Max TPS for Table B: TPS must be under this value to use table B.



DFCO Entry Spark: Spark will ramp down to this value before DFCO enables.



Fuel Tab - DFCO Enable Normal Section:

Enable Speed vs. Baro: The vehicle speed must exceed this value.
RPM vs. Gear Exit: Engine RPM must exceed table value.
TPS vs. RPM: Throttle position must be below this table value.
Map vs. Baro Exit: Map must be below this table value.


Exiting DFCO:
VCM has found a reason to turn the fuel back on and start the spark exiting process.

Spark Tab - DFCO Entry, Active, Exit Spark Section:


Exit Blending vs. TPS: Spark is added at a rate of 12.5msec at the Exit Blending value. If your current spark advance (Main spark table, not Active Advance vs. RPM A/B) is 20 degrees @3000 rpm, and your add rate is 0.286, the VCM will add .286 degrees of spark every 12.5 milliseconds until the main spark table value is reached.
Exit Blending CT (Clutch Transition): This value over rides the Exit Blending vs. TPS table if clutch activity has been detected.
Stall RPM: This is the lower RPM limit for DFCO fuel cut.



DFCO Exit Spark: Spark will ramp up from this value when exiting DFCO.

Information from HP tuners site.

AJxtcman
02-06-08, 10:38 PM
Does it happen only on a coast down from higher speeds (45+) or low speeds too? (driveway)? It is most likely an FPR and/or fuel pressure problem.
:hmm:

:thumbsup:

Now read my post just for the info.

rhw1
02-07-08, 09:14 AM
It happens most on a gradual coast down from about 30 mph; it has not happened in a driveway or similar. If I brake to slow down more rapidly, it does not happen. IAC passages are clean; I tried a new IAC valve with no change.

Submariner409
02-07-08, 09:24 AM
Neat! Now we all know.......one more thing to print off and stick in the AJ folder..........:rolleyes:

AlBundy
02-07-08, 09:50 PM
:yeah::histeric:

rhw1
02-09-08, 02:59 PM
Thanks to all for help; I will check fuel pressure and FPR; need to get fitting for my pressure gage so it may take a few days or so.

rhw1
02-20-08, 10:04 AM
I have the following fuel pressure data:

Engine off, key on, fuel pump on, pressure = 51 psi(spec = 48-55).
When fuel pump shuts off, pressure drops immediately to 40 psi, then recovers to 48 psi in about 30 seconds. After 10 minutes, pressure = 46 psi(spec = 48-43). I don't understand this drop to 40 then return to 48; I did my best to purge air from gauge and hose. Can anyone explain?

Engine at idle and normal operating temperature, pressure bounces between 41-44 psi. While this reading is in spec(41-48), it is at the low end, should I try a new FPR?

As history, I have cleaned throttle body, IAC passages, and tried a new IAC valve. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Ranger
02-20-08, 12:54 PM
If your not having a problem, don't worry about it. Sounds normal.

rhw1
02-20-08, 03:29 PM
Would like your comment on problem below as I have read your authoratative posts on this issue.
99SLS with 72K with decel stall
Throttle body and IAC passages have been cleaned; only code is stall/near stall condition(1599).
Problem is intermittent(one or twice per week), but only happens on gradual decel when 800-900 rpm is reached; tach will drop to 400 rpm and usually recover to 1000 and then do the same thing repeatedly. It seems that engine can't run at this 800-900 rpm, but if under a more rapid decel and 700 rpm is reached engine runs fine. When the stall/near stall happens, I feel no missing or stumbling.
Thanks for your help.

I am still having the stalling problem and checked fuel pressure per my post earlier today.

Ranger
02-20-08, 04:20 PM
Those pressures are pretty normal and definitely not low enough to cause a stall. Now an intermittent fuel pump is another story.

eldorado1
02-20-08, 07:36 PM
Need more info... Does it only stall when it's hot? Both cold and hot? Can you get it to occur at speeds above 55? Does the tank have to be near E or F for it to happen?

rhw1
02-20-08, 08:40 PM
Stalls are at any gas tank level and are only during decel at 20-25 mph(at about 900 rpm). They do not happen when engine is cold. Usually it's a near stall; rpm drops from 900 to 400 with no stumbling and recovers; if A/C is on, it may not recover. The problem is intermittent, but when it happens it can go from 900 to 400 rpm and back to 900 etc. a half dozen times in succession in one minute.

Submariner409
02-20-08, 08:53 PM
Let's go back to square 1. Look at the driver's door sticker, the one that lists the tire size and ratings. In the upper corner of that sticker is a date code that looks like xx/xx. What are those numbers?

Where I'm going is that if this is a late model run, some sensors could be first generation '00 stock, phased into the end of run assembly.

Which takes me back to CKP problems.........

Interested in the date code.

AJxtcman
02-20-08, 09:10 PM
:thehand:
:thehand:
:thehand:
:thehand:
:thehand:

I may know what is wrong with the car and it has to do with the DFCO

:mad2: I had one come back to me last Friday after I put a FPR on the Friday before. I also change plug and wires for maintenance.

Anyway the POS backfire valve was leaking and throwing off the fuel trim. Then it would seal up and shoot it the other way.

Question: will a vacuum leak make a car lean?
Answer: NO

If it is a Speed density system (MAF less) it will just raise the idle RPM, because that is all you are doing when you open the throttle plate.

Now with the MAF sensor in play a vacuum leak such as the back fire valve can cause the system to subtract fuel. I vacuum leak in another location may cause the system to add fuel.

Submariner409
02-20-08, 09:17 PM
In order to narrow this down, how does he go through the DFCO faults and then check out the manifold (backfire) valve?

I still want the date code........good info, No?

There are enough brains (?) in this N* forum to psyche this thing out........

eldorado1
02-20-08, 11:42 PM
Stalls are at any gas tank level and are only during decel at 20-25 mph(at about 900 rpm). They do not happen when engine is cold. Usually it's a near stall; rpm drops from 900 to 400 with no stumbling and recovers; if A/C is on, it may not recover. The problem is intermittent, but when it happens it can go from 900 to 400 rpm and back to 900 etc. a half dozen times in succession in one minute.

When it is warm, do you notice a hesitation if you slightly apply the gas?

eldorado1
02-20-08, 11:47 PM
I may know what is wrong with the car and it has to do with the DFCO


DFCO is not active at 20mph. Your theory on the vacuum leak may be correct, but it doesn't have anything to do with DFCO.

AJxtcman
02-21-08, 06:15 AM
In order to narrow this down, how does he go through the DFCO faults and then check out the manifold (backfire) valve?

I still want the date code........good info, No?

There are enough brains (?) in this N* forum to psyche this thing out........

If it was me I would look at fuel trim and the MAF flow rate.

Submariner409
02-21-08, 09:29 AM
Would fuel trim swings set a P code?

rhw1.........did you pull the MAF when you did the IAC cleaning? Is there ANY chance you hit or moved one of the tiny wire resistors on the MAF voltage bridges? Should be 3 resistors with steel leads electro-welded to the signal and ground bridge network. They're tiny and fragile. Just another maybe.....

Click on the below pic and scroll in. These may not be your exact MAF, but they show (look carefully) the 3 resistors across the larger support wires. The little black thermistor at 1 o'clock is the IAT sensor. The pic also shows that a JET MAF is nothing more that a mechanically modified OEM DELPHI unit.

rhw1
02-21-08, 09:48 AM
Let's go back to square 1. Look at the driver's door sticker, the one that lists the tire size and ratings. In the upper corner of that sticker is a date code that looks like xx/xx. What are those numbers?

Where I'm going is that if this is a late model run, some sensors could be first generation '00 stock, phased into the end of run assembly.

Which takes me back to CKP problems.........

Interested in the date code.

Date code is 08/98

Submariner409
02-21-08, 10:11 AM
OK..........08/98 puts your car in the very first batch of the '99 model run assemblies, which moves the CKP idea to a back burner. Late 05/99 began the first '00 engine assemblies.

Back to the drawing board.

rhw1
02-21-08, 10:35 AM
Would fuel trim swings set a P code?

rhw1.........did you pull the MAF when you did the IAC cleaning? Is there ANY chance you hit or moved one of the tiny wire resistors on the MAF voltage bridges? Should be 3 resistors with steel leads electro-welded to the signal and ground bridge network. They're tiny and fragile. Just another maybe.....

Click on the below pic and scroll in. These may not be your exact MAF, but they show (look carefully) the 3 resistors across the larger support wires. The little black thermistor at 1 o'clock is the IAT sensor. The pic also shows that a JET MAF is nothing more that a mechanically modified OEM DELPHI unit.

Answer to Submariner:
I did take the MAF sensor when I did the cleaning, but I was careful as I had read advice in the forum. Also dealer did the following at 68K miles and 40k miles: "Intake and fuel service including cleaning air intake system, fuel induction system and installing BG44K injector and intake system cleaner." I am sure my stalling problem started well before the 68K cleaning was done as I had hoped the 68K cleaning would solve the problem. When this problem started, it was very infrequent; over time the frequency has increased so I have lived with it for a long time. However, I'm pretty sure it does not go back as far as the 40K cleaning. This is probably more information than you wanted, but I wanted to give you as much as I could as I appreciate your input on this.

rhw1
02-21-08, 10:38 AM
When it is warm, do you notice a hesitation if you slightly apply the gas?

Answer to Eldorado1:
There is no hesitation on slight application of gas or any other time. Other than stalling problem, engine runs great. Thanks for your help.

eldorado1
02-21-08, 10:59 AM
I would clean the EGR valve. If it 's sticking and leaking, it could be enough to mess with the idle. So be sure to check the pintle to see if it has any resistance or is jammed open.

I would not rule out a sensor malfunction, but without a scan tool it will be difficult to find, so this is a good (cheap) place to start.

rhw1
02-21-08, 06:24 PM
I would clean the EGR valve. If it 's sticking and leaking, it could be enough to mess with the idle. So be sure to check the pintle to see if it has any resistance or is jammed open.

I would not rule out a sensor malfunction, but without a scan tool it will be difficult to find, so this is a good (cheap) place to start.

I'll pull the EGR valve this weekend; thanks for the input.

eldorado1
02-21-08, 10:44 PM
Can someone with an OBDII manual post the sequence to pull the MAF/MAP/TPS readings on the dash?

AJxtcman
02-22-08, 07:34 AM
I was thinking about the same thing.

I am not sure how, but I will look for the procedure to do this.

I would look at the fuel trim or O2 readings through the DIC. The fuel trim reading will be the best way. Try short term if you have two people.

Bring up the Values on the DIC.
Spray Carb Cleaner around the Backfire Valve. The values should swing 10 to 20% quickly.
After that Spray the intake manifold and head area. The intake gaskets go bad. On decel the vacuum leak gets bigger.

If you can't pull this up on the DIC you could spray the cleaner, but the PCM is so fast I don't think you will see a change in the RPM or they way it runs. If you do get a change in RPM or it runs rough for a second you have a leak.

rhw1
02-22-08, 11:19 AM
Can someone tell me where the backfire valve is? Thanks

AJxtcman
02-22-08, 12:11 PM
Can someone tell me where the backfire valve is? Thanks

This one is sealed shut.
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Fiero/intake/intakebackfirevalve.jpg

AJxtcman
02-25-08, 12:33 PM
I got the car back today, so I could spend more time with it. I am pulling the intake off. The only DTC set this time was the P1599.

I did not even check the fuel trim this time. Just off with the intake.

Last time in I sprayed the gasket area and the fuel trim jumped

AJxtcman
02-25-08, 01:37 PM
The intake gasket was worse off than I thought. I will post pictures soon

rhw1
04-05-08, 07:42 PM
I would clean the EGR valve. If it 's sticking and leaking, it could be enough to mess with the idle. So be sure to check the pintle to see if it has any resistance or is jammed open.

I would not rule out a sensor malfunction, but without a scan tool it will be difficult to find, so this is a good (cheap) place to start.

:bouncy:Problem seems to be solved; it's been over a month with no stall/near stall(was happening at least weekly). Thanks to all for help; prize goes to Eldorado1. I cleaned EGR valve at his suggestion; this solved the problem. One curious note to me; when I pulled EGR valve, it seemed to stick in the shut position? I cleaned/polished seating surface(not pintle) with steel wool. Eldorado1, you're the man.