: Mods = Hp



Kidhummer
01-31-08, 11:48 PM
What Mods Are You Guys Going To Do To The 09 V? And Which Mod Will Probably Give The Most Hp?

I Personally Think That A Pully Change, Tune, Exhaust And Headers Is A Must.

Also, Is It Possible To Change The Supercharger On The V To The Same One Used On The Corvette Zr1? Or Is The Lack Of Forged Pistons Going To Present A Problem.

MauiV
01-31-08, 11:58 PM
If you change the blower your going to have to change all the internals that GM did too IMO. The titanium rods, exhaust manifold etc were made that way to accept the higher pressure from the LS9. I think they only share 25% of components.

Im sure its gonna get costly to replicate the LS9 engine and there is a reason the price tags are $30K apart.

The mag ride may make suspension mods damn pricey too.

But hey, at least the damn thing is gonna have 5 lug rims!!

Katshot
02-01-08, 08:04 AM
From what I've read, a pulley change is not possible, and as far as other mods go, my guess is that there won't be a lot of power to gain by simple means. Yeah, intake & exhaust mods might net you 20hp if you're lucky, and there "might" be a few ponies in a tune but I'm not betting on it. The PCM tune on this puppy will be elaborate and I wouldn't be surprised if there's not a lot of power there either. Will be interesting to see some dyno testing data.
I think the days of free horsepower being found in PCM tunes is long gone, at least compared to a few years ago anyway. Again, it'll be fun to see what tuners come up with, without having to dig into the engine at least.
I have a funny feeling that the biggest performance gains will be found via weight-reduction.

HushH
02-01-08, 11:44 AM
I seem to recall in an article the use of a very mild cam to keep it "civil". A cam swap may end up yielding the best results if this is the case.

I'd be surprised if there's very much weight savings to be had without the removal of alot of the upgrades over the 1st gen V. If you want to go that route, you may be better off doing an engine swap in a 1st gen.

wrazor1
02-01-08, 01:52 PM
From what I've read, a pulley change is not possible, and as far as other mods go, my guess is that there won't be a lot of power to gain by simple means. Yeah, intake & exhaust mods might net you 20hp if you're lucky, and there "might" be a few ponies in a tune but I'm not betting on it. The PCM tune on this puppy will be elaborate and I wouldn't be surprised if there's not a lot of power there either. Will be interesting to see some dyno testing data.
I think the days of free horsepower being found in PCM tunes is long gone, at least compared to a few years ago anyway. Again, it'll be fun to see what tuners come up with, without having to dig into the engine at least.
I have a funny feeling that the biggest performance gains will be found via weight-reduction.

I find myself agreeing with you quite a bit. I think we've both posted about the weight of this car. My question would be what options are there for shedding pounds?

I've also seen a ton of folks saying a pulley change will most likely be out of the question but I do have more confidence that tuning has some decent potential.

Katshot
02-01-08, 02:01 PM
It's possible that a tune may net something, but I'm unsure as to just how much . I mean if a pulley swap WAS an option, then sure but I'm just not sure how much you're going to be able to play with this one. Like I said, I will be VERY interested to see the first reports from tuners after a little dyno time.

The Tony Show
02-01-08, 04:05 PM
The pulley is integral to the jackshaft on the supercharger, but that won't stop somebody from putting an overdrive pulley on the crankshaft. Since the pulley will use a dedicated belt, all it would take is for someone to manufacture a clone of the crank pulley but increase the size of the section the SC belt rides on.

:devil:

Katshot
02-01-08, 04:37 PM
The pulley is integral to the jackshaft on the supercharger, but that won't stop somebody from putting an overdrive pulley on the crankshaft. Since the pulley will use a dedicated belt, all it would take is for someone to manufacture a clone of the crank pulley but increase the size of the section the SC belt rides on.

:devil:

Is there sufficient room for it?

CIWS
02-01-08, 06:53 PM
JATO bottle. :D

NormV
02-01-08, 06:58 PM
There will be a limit on crank pulley size both in size and the effects of slowing down everything that runs on the belt. Sounds like there will be 3 belts: ac, accessories, and the blower running off one big pulley. Engineering at it's finest!

Slow things too much and the alternator will spin too low or the power steering pump will not keep up with steering.

8" serpentine belts, they are common...right!

The Tony Show
02-01-08, 07:02 PM
Like I said- only enlarge the part of the pulley that the SC belt rides on. From the profile it would look like this (of course, it may not ride in the middle but on either end, but you get the idea).

NormV
02-01-08, 07:15 PM
Something that runs through a tubers mind for this package and the ZR-1 is a crank pulley redesign and a new SC snout that will allow pulley swaps. Look to over $5,000 like the Ford GT.

http://www.seanhylandmotorsport.com/online/product_info.php?cPath=90&products_id=1845

But in the end the SC stuff will be removed and twin turbos be installed for around $8,000 and be done. This setup will be removing 100 lbs from the top of the engine and lower center of gravity in the process.

Norm

CVP33
02-01-08, 07:25 PM
CTS!
3M Clear bra.

Nothing else for a change. :halo:

Katshot
02-02-08, 07:43 AM
CTS!
3M Clear bra.

Nothing else for a change. :halo:

Probably a smart move. I mean DAMN isn't it fast enough already?

SRT8/BMW
02-02-08, 09:28 AM
CTS!
3M Clear bra.

Nothing else for a change. :halo:

ditto! with 550/550 and a car that looks that nice, I need nothing more. The oportunities to use those ponies will be rare.

If you happen to go the track..you are going to have a stock sedan running low 12s. If your playing on the street and get an opportunity to have a safe run with someone..your likely never going to lose to any sedan. what the hell...

aaronk1975
02-04-08, 03:12 PM
hey all i have a good source at eaton and you can get the pulley off it is a press fit pulley i actually will have all the dimensions of the stock pullet and will be making a smaller one next week.will put up pictures asap.

StealthV
02-04-08, 08:10 PM
As for tuning, I'm of the belief that there will always be power left on the table.

In the grand interest of everyone being happy with the cars when they purchase 87 octane gasoline in BFE along with reducing warranty risk, the engine will not be tuned to the edge from the factory. GM won't repeat BMW's M3 engine fiasco.

To stir the debate, let's compare:

2005 CTS-V with a 5.7L LS6 engine with a comparatively old school, less efficient supercharger puts out right around 450 rwhp or 550 at the crank.

Now we take a half liter larger engine at 6.2L with better flowing cylinder heads and bolt on a more efficient supercharger. Guess what - The LSA puts out the same power at 550.

Tweak the ignition timing a bit, reduce the fuel mixture (gut says it'll be 10 to 10.5:1 from the factory) and headers I'm sure we'll see LSAs over 500 rwhp. Heck LS6 cars are getting near that today with the same mods.

Welcome to power opportunity city with the LSA. Totally silliness in a RWD CTS-V. No more Lord Vader; this is Emperor Palpatine's hammer.

AWD. AWD. AWD. AWD. AWD. AWD. AWD. AWD. AWD. AWD. AWD.

NormV
02-04-08, 08:32 PM
Rick, remember too that V2 is designed to be boosted, not V1 which was designed to be NA. So the gains of 170 whp for V2 will not be as easy as V1.

Add 400 lbs at front hood height should make an interesting front to rear weight ratio. If awd comes it will lower center of gravity, adding more weight to the front...RS4! The drag on some of the boosted 4 bangers from Japan and Audi really shows up after 100 mph.

Are you talking about the bearing clearance in early E36 M3's?

Norm

MauiV
02-04-08, 08:36 PM
Good to see that at least your head is still in the V game Stealth, even if your ass isnt.

StealthV
02-04-08, 09:07 PM
Norm, good point with the LSA's lower compression ratio. One could read that as good news for cylinder pressure and spinning the blower harder in the quest for more power.

Looking at the GM's durability history of the gen III/IV small blocks and the aftermarket's quest for power over the years, we're going to see some extremely powerful, cost effectively modded '09 Vs that are still reliabile daily drivers.

Did I read somewhere that the '09 V uses an E67 engine controller?

HiTechRV
02-04-08, 09:51 PM
Normally an engine designed for boost has MORE potential for extra pressure than an NA engine. I second the press fit pulley. I have my 10,000 psi puller in the garage waiting...

I also wonder if you can take the 3.73 final gear from the manual and replace the 3.23 in the auto.

Katshot
02-05-08, 07:55 AM
Normally an engine designed for boost has MORE potential for extra pressure than an NA engine. I second the press fit pulley. I have my 10,000 psi puller in the garage waiting...

I also wonder if you can take the 3.73 final gear from the manual and replace the 3.23 in the auto.

Can't imagine why the gears wouldn't be interchangeable.

NormV
02-05-08, 08:58 PM
If you have a puller that will support the base you should be fine. Maybe a little heat and a small hammer.

The 3800 SC pulley had a tendency to mushroom if pulled around the perimeter.


Norm



Normally an engine designed for boost has MORE potential for extra pressure than an NA engine. I second the press fit pulley. I have my 10,000 psi puller in the garage waiting...

I also wonder if you can take the 3.73 final gear from the manual and replace the 3.23 in the auto.

HiTechRV
02-06-08, 12:27 PM
For me the trick on the 3800 pulleys was get them as fresh from the factory as possible. I could also see a pumpkin or gear swap into an auto to get a quicker car early in the lifecycle. Any of these mods will require a lot better or bigger contact patch in back.

NormV
02-06-08, 03:27 PM
The pulleys did vary in effort.

With highway dropping from 25 to 19 mpg, I don't most would be happy seeing singles digits daily with a shorter gear ratio. We'll see.

Norm


For me the trick on the 3800 pulleys was get them as fresh from the factory as possible. I could also see a pumpkin or gear swap into an auto to get a quicker car early in the lifecycle. Any of these mods will require a lot better or bigger contact patch in back.

HiTechRV
02-07-08, 10:15 PM
The guys who put SC's on the current V see the same drops. There are some V drivers who are not going to worry too much about MPG.

HITMONEY
02-09-08, 11:46 AM
While there maybe headroom to boost the power significantly, I am a little concerned that there is not an equal amount of headroom residing in the bottom end... I wouldn't want to put a few cast pistons in geosynchronous orbit and having to explain that to my service adviser.

I am going to go out on a limb here and say you won't see too many tuners pushing the envelope too hard without replacing this Paris Hilton bottom end with that of a much meatier Jay-Lo bottom end.


I guess we wil have to wait until some tuners test the murky waters of tolerance for the LSA.
:)

Flyboy
02-09-08, 06:20 PM
I mean DAMN isn't it fast enough already?

I think so too.

I know we all like to mod, but I agree it's prolly gonna' be really quick. Power:Weight ratio and all. Maybe just "dress her up" a bit to make her stand out even more in a crowd.

It's going to be a nice car IMHO.

Naf
09-08-08, 10:41 PM
Ok, i am about to talk to a dealer about changin up to a 09, but i would like to know about Headers and other bolt ons...Are they the same as the V1 or does it need to be prototyped and built later at higher $s then we have available?

Remember i am on the other end of the world, and well stuff doesnt make it to my end as fast as yours....

LITTLEELVISDAN
09-09-08, 08:08 AM
How come you guys aren't asking the STS-V crowd where the power gains might come from? We have been dealing with the boosted engine for some time now. The tuning isn't really that much different. AND yes there is HP left on the table. GM tunes these things pig rich as to make them last much much longer and have no warrenty claims. Intakes are also really restrictive to keep the blower whine down. You don't mind the noise you can make lots more power. I'm not advertising for them but D3 has made substantial HP gains on our SC N* without increasing boost. I think they are up 100+ hp with only bolt-ons and a tune. I would be suprised if 100+ is not aceiveable with the LSA.

Kidhummer
09-23-08, 03:36 PM
A local performance shop by me said that a simple pulley swap and tune is good for close to 100hp. Then, add a ram air kit, exhaust, headers and you got Z06 performance. Also, 175mph is more than fast enough and im sure no one will be reaching anywhere near those speeds, but out of curiosity, is it possible to make the automatic as fast as the manual? I guess a gear swap is the only way.

Torxila
09-23-08, 03:55 PM
Cam/Tune/Long tubes/catback will easily net 80-100rwhp

(auto) Converter and TCU tune & we'll easily be in the 11.50/130ish range on PS2's

George

HPCC
09-23-08, 04:17 PM
...is it possible to make the automatic as fast as the manual? I guess a gear swap is the only way.Probably. At least one of the many reviews stated that the top speed of the automatic equipped cars was capped to limit the maximum output shaft speed of the transmission.

Dr. Design
09-25-08, 12:41 PM
They make it sound so easy.....:hmm: I guess time will tell...The automatic is governed by the comp for factory reasons. You dont need a gear swap to make the auto go faster. And "I heard" there are roads in the US that you can test your top speeds if you so choose....:lildevil:


Thanks,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac


A local performance shop by me said that a simple pulley swap and tune is good for close to 100hp. Then, add a ram air kit, exhaust, headers and you got Z06 performance. Also, 175mph is more than fast enough and im sure no one will be reaching anywhere near those speeds, but out of curiosity, is it possible to make the automatic as fast as the manual? I guess a gear swap is the only way.

lawfive
09-25-08, 01:24 PM
A6

Black

Powdercoat grill and chrome

!CTS

Tint

Clear bra

Sound system TBD

Fuzzy dice

Full stop

HPCC
09-26-08, 12:10 AM
...The automatic is governed by the comp for factory reasons.Car and Driver (http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/high_performance/furious_four_doors/2009_cadillac_cts_v_road_test+t-speed_and_stopping_ability+page-2.html) said it was to protect the transmission by limiting the output shaft speed.
You dont need a gear swap to make the auto go faster...So how would you protect the tranny? :confused:

Dr. Design
09-26-08, 06:35 PM
There are measures that you can take, from mechanical changes and software changes, that one could make to ensure that the transmission is protected. GM does some really interesting things when they try to set the boundries for a given component....But I guess thats why there are companies like ours, so we can figure out all the details and then provide you guys with an easy bolt on or programming option.:lildevil:

Thanks,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac


Car and Driver (http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/high_performance/furious_four_doors/2009_cadillac_cts_v_road_test+t-speed_and_stopping_ability+page-2.html) said it was to protect the transmission by limiting the output shaft speed.So how would you protect the tranny? :confused:

HiTechRV
09-27-08, 06:04 PM
How long until the first dealer sold CTS-V hits 600 hp at the crank? Obviously there must be GM cars that have.

FreddyG
10-07-08, 10:24 PM
Im sure its gonna get costly to replicate the LS9 engine and there is a reason the price tags are $30K apart.

The mag ride may make suspension mods damn pricey too.

But hey, at least the damn thing is gonna have 5 lug rims!![/QUOTE]

Don't forget the carbon/ceramic brakes! Those are HUUUUUGE money!

I don't think that changing to the 2300 blower would net you much over the 1900, unless you were going to raise the boost quite a bit. If I were to mod one, I'd pulley it down (raise the boost 2-3 psi), put some headers/exhaust on it (what goes in, must come out), a meth injection system (to lower the Intake air temps and keep it from pulling timing when/if it became heat soaked) and a tune (to get everything optimized and "shaking hands")! It'd probably end up around 550- 600 rwhp once everything was said and done. Oh yeah, a trans cooler and an oil cooler too (unless they have them already).


From what I've read, a pulley change is not possible, and as far as other mods go, my guess is that there won't be a lot of power to gain by simple means. Yeah, intake & exhaust mods might net you 20hp if you're lucky, and there "might" be a few ponies in a tune but I'm not betting on it. The PCM tune on this puppy will be elaborate and I wouldn't be surprised if there's not a lot of power there either. Will be interesting to see some dyno testing data.
I think the days of free horsepower being found in PCM tunes is long gone, at least compared to a few years ago anyway. Again, it'll be fun to see what tuners come up with, without having to dig into the engine at least.
I have a funny feeling that the biggest performance gains will be found via weight-reduction.

I kindly disagree with your pcm assessment!

HP Tuners and EfiLive are probably working on these right now so they can be tuned! As a matter of fact EfiLive is almost done with the ZR1 setup:
ZR1 tune.................... (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=8832&highlight=e67)

As far as changing the pulley, someone will figure it out. They always do.

Believe me when I say that the OEM tune is FAR from optimized and picking up 30+ rwhp isn't unheard of on a boosted car. Changing torque management will gain you some too. Not to mention all of the little things that you can change with tuning software, such as fan settings, gear changes, clutch lockups (A6), etc.

I do agree with you on one thing though....I'm looking forward to seeing what the tuners do for these too! :thumbsup:

You could always put a little shot of nitrous on it too! Spraying it into the intercooler will have a huge effect on power, since the N20 is so cold that it'll bring intake temps down and keep the charged air cooler! I, personally wouldn't do it, but it's just a thought!