: Need new valve springs!



ctsv154
01-30-08, 10:06 PM
I need some new springs to go with my new cam! Cam is 239/242 .649"/.609" 111 LSA :lildevil:

I'm looking at these from TSP
http://www.texas-speed.com/shop/item.asp?itemid=173&catid=48

And I also found these one ebay but I dont know anything about REV. Are they any good?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=021&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=310016206977&rd=1I checked out there web site and it looks like they make some good stuff. http://www.revvalves.com/home.phpIf so, both of these are reasonable prices. Which one should I get?


I like the TSP's because they come with seals too. Just a nice package deal.

PISNUOFF
01-30-08, 11:52 PM
That is one serious cam!!!

heavymetals
01-31-08, 03:00 AM
What did you do to/for pistons?

That is a lot of lift.

Naf
01-31-08, 04:06 AM
OK Relax slow down breathe....

You need crane cam springs and titanium retainers...They will hold upto 0.650 lift and they are double springs so you can REV the crap out of them...There are also CompCams and they are the beehive style if i am not mistaken...Contact Lingenfelter ask for Kevin...He will score you everything and do all the leg work for you...

ctsv154
01-31-08, 05:15 AM
What did you do to/for pistons?

That is a lot of lift.

While the piston to valve clearance will be close, I was assured I would have no problem as long as I was not running milled heads. Milled heads = fly cut pistons. Stock 243's = fly cut just for insurance.

This cam will more than likely hang around in my garage for a bit being it is so radical, I would like to have some supporting mods before it goes in. I already have a few goodies but would like to find a fast 90 intake setup and some headers. Really I just want to put it on all at once so I only have to have it tuned one time.

If you cant tell I'm trying to do this on a budget so more than likely, the crane springs are out of the questions if the ones from TSP are any good. Any users of either? Would like some input from people that have actually used them. If I have to, I'll spend the money and get the cranes but if TSP's spings are good for it, then why?

ctsv154
01-31-08, 05:24 AM
Also, the cam is a 2300-6800 RPM power band with a peak around 6400 RPM. I really didn't want to raise the rev limiter and with a peak at 6400 I shouldn't have to. Plus keeping it out of the red is better because I'm not fly cutting the pistons.

Naf
01-31-08, 06:47 AM
Patriot are Perfect for you then...

They come with everything and most guys i know are runnin them for they are CHEAP...and they come complete with ti retainers locks and springs for 0.650 lift...

trukk
01-31-08, 12:55 PM
Looks like an MS4 or a TREX. Yowsa. Is this going to be a daily driver, or strip machine?

I just bought some Patriot Gold Xtreme's which are rated up to .660. The springs are exactly the same as the TSP Platinums (i.e. from the same manufacturer, associated springs). The only difference between the 2 kits is the locks they use. Patriot uses Super 7, PRC uses stock (I believe).

The cam I'm installing is speced at:

224/228 .609/.588 111LSA +0 advance Comp Cams XFI/XE-R lobes
While the Duration isn't that big, the ramp rates are agressive due to the lobes, and the lift is fairly high, which is why I went with these springs. I also definately wanted dual springs, to provide that added bit of redundancy/safety, since this is my Daily Driver.

What do you expect your final HP/YQ numbers to be with this?

What other supporting mods do you have planned so far?

For my cam install so far I've purchased:

Custom Cam reccomendation; PatrickG: $25.00
Custom Cam + Cam Card: $425
Comp 7.425" Push Rods: 63-7796-16: $132.99
Patriot Gold Extreme Spring Kit: 8402: $263.99
ASP 10% Underdrive Harmonic Balancer: 941020: $245.99
Cloyes Hex Adjust Single Roller Timming Set: 9-3153A: $169.69
Melling LS1/6 Performance Oil Pump, High Volume (18%):10296: $139.95
* Yella Terra 1.7" Non Adjustable Ultralite rockers: 6645: $400.00
* Ford Motorsports 30# (Red Top) Flow Matched Fuel Injectors: $400.00

ARP HP Series Cam Sprocket Bolt Kit: 134-1003 $8.88
ARP GENIII/LS Series Small Black Timing Cover Bolt Kit: $24.39
ARP GENIII/LS Cam retainer Bolts: 113-134-1002: $7.49

SDPC Cam Install Gasket Kit: KITSD51902: $61.95
ARP Assembly Lube: 100-9903: $6.95
COMP Cams Engine Assembly Lube 102: $8.99
Mobil 1 x 13 Qts: $50.00
Gallon of Distilled Water: $2.00
Gallon of DexCool: $20.00(??)

I'm still researching to see if I need anything else (i.e. Cam retainer plate plus bolts, and whether or not I need to get new rocker bolts, vs. reusing my stock ones.)

* = Yet to be purchased

My $0.02 (or actually $2616.26)

-Chris

Leeman
01-31-08, 02:01 PM
The PAC beehives are nice springs.

-- Lee

Leeman
01-31-08, 03:25 PM
Weird, can't edit my post.

Here is a link for the PAC springs:
http://www.racingsprings.com/beehivesprings.htm

The PAC 1518's are the one's I believe you would be interested in.

Note: these are not the Comp Cam's beehives that have had quality problems.

-- Lee

trukk
01-31-08, 04:10 PM
Weird, can't edit my post.

Here is a link for the PAC springs:
http://www.racingsprings.com/beehivesprings.htm

The PAC 1518's are the one's I believe you would be interested in.

Note: these are not the Comp Cam's beehives that have had quality problems.

-- Lee


With that ammount of lift, wouldn't you want to go dual spring?

PAC's top of the line beehive spring (Premium Nitrided Beehive LS1 Spring), runs $360/set (without any of the other bits (retainers, seals, locks, etc.)), and is rated up to .650 max lift.
http://www.pacracing.com/Street_Strip_Springs-PAC_1518_Set_of_16.html

As you can tell from my list, I don't skimp when it comes to parts, but I think these might be overkill (plus I'd prefer the doubles, just in case).

-Chris

ctsv154
01-31-08, 04:23 PM
Looks like an MS4 or a TREX. Yowsa. Is this going to be a daily driver, or strip machine?

I just bought some Patriot Gold Xtreme's which are rated up to .660. The springs are exactly the same as the TSP Platinums (i.e. from the same manufacturer, associated springs). The only difference between the 2 kits is the locks they use. Patriot uses Super 7, PRC uses stock (I believe).

The cam I'm installing is speced at:

224/228 .609/.588 111LSA +0 advance Comp Cams XFI/XE-R lobes
While the Duration isn't that big, the ramp rates are agressive due to the lobes, and the lift is fairly high, which is why I went with these springs. I also definately wanted dual springs, to provide that added bit of redundancy/safety, since this is my Daily Driver.

What do you expect your final HP/YQ numbers to be with this?

What other supporting mods do you have planned so far?

For my cam install so far I've purchased:

Custom Cam reccomendation; PatrickG: $25.00
Custom Cam + Cam Card: $425
Comp 7.425" Push Rods: 63-7796-16: $132.99
Patriot Gold Extreme Spring Kit: 8402: $263.99
ASP 10% Underdrive Harmonic Balancer: 941020: $245.99
Cloyes Hex Adjust Single Roller Timming Set: 9-3153A: $169.69
Melling LS1/6 Performance Oil Pump, High Volume (18%):10296: $139.95
* Yella Terra 1.7" Non Adjustable Ultralite rockers: 6645: $400.00
* Ford Motorsports 30# (Red Top) Flow Matched Fuel Injectors: $400.00

ARP HP Series Cam Sprocket Bolt Kit: 134-1003 $8.88
ARP GENIII/LS Series Small Black Timing Cover Bolt Kit: $24.39
ARP GENIII/LS Cam retainer Bolts: 113-134-1002: $7.49

SDPC Cam Install Gasket Kit: KITSD51902: $61.95
ARP Assembly Lube: 100-9903: $6.95
COMP Cams Engine Assembly Lube 102: $8.99
Mobil 1 x 13 Qts: $50.00
Gallon of Distilled Water: $2.00
Gallon of DexCool: $20.00(??)

I'm still researching to see if I need anything else (i.e. Cam retainer plate plus bolts, and whether or not I need to get new rocker bolts, vs. reusing my stock ones.)

* = Yet to be purchased

My $0.02 (or actually $2616.26)

-Chris

It is the MS4. As far as hp numbers go, I dont really know. I'm hoping to end up in the 400-425 rwhp range with some other stuff. Need to find a good tuner in OK. Currently I have a set of crane gold race accelerated lift 1.7 rockers. Of course they came with hardened push-rods, guide plates, poly locks, and studs.

I'm looking for a good set of heads to throw on it. Nothing milled, just good flow, maybe just ported 243's. Headers, blueprinted and shimmed oil pump. A set of spings! lol Ti retainers of course. New ARP hardware for everything that comes off.

How much do you think a fast 90 and 90mm TB would help with this cam? I've read the 243's dont flow enough to justify the 90 but they will be ported so I dont know.

We'll see what the duty cycle on the injectors is after the tune. Dont wont to buy something this expensive if I dont need them.

This will be my daily driver. I know!!! I'll be changing springs all the time. The cams not very streetable blah blah blah. I've heard all that already so no need to go down that street again. I know the complications of running a cam this big in a daily driver (had a 73 340 Challenger with a crazy cam) but I'm 23 and dont mind the extra effort. Plus I think the looks on peoples faces when I pull up in a caddy thats bumping (and not because of the radio!!!) will be priceless! <--------And NO this is not why I'm going with this cam, just something a little extra that makes it all worth it! Even stock, the car makes a great conversation piece. Its got a Corvette motor in it??? What??? But its a Cadillac! Cadillac's aren't supposed to be fast! haha just wait:lildevil:

However I do take constructive criticism so if any of you guys have any ideas, post up!

Leeman
01-31-08, 04:32 PM
I'm a huge believer in the beehive spring. The design takes a lot of weight off the valvetrain. Most people don't even run titanium retainers because the steel ones are so light (the retainer on the beehive is a lot smaller than the equivalent dual spring retainer).

For the dual spring (with damper) alternative, is machining required on the heads to fit larger diameter valve springs ?

-- Lee

Leeman
01-31-08, 04:39 PM
Looked it up, guess you don't need to machine the heads for the Patriot's.
For the money, they look like a decent bargain.

On my LT1, I had constant problems with dual springs giving me valve float. The beehives solved that for me. LSx motors are probably different.

-- Lee

ctsv154
01-31-08, 04:40 PM
I'm a huge believer in the beehive spring. The design takes a lot of weight off the valvetrain. Most people don't even run titanium retainers because the steel ones are so light (the retainer on the beehive is a lot smaller than the equivalent dual spring retainer).

For the dual spring (with damper) alternative, is machining required on the heads to fit larger diameter valve springs ?

-- Lee

Not usually. New springs usually come with new seats that locate the springs properly and give them a solid base instead of the soft aluminum.

ctsv154
01-31-08, 04:47 PM
Even though the steal retainers are light on the beehives (which I plan on running) I still want to run Ti because I'm not fly cutting the pistons and I want those valves up and closed as fast as possible!!! Then if I still kiss a piston, oh well!!! Cause then I would have an excuse to drop a 427 in it!

trukk
01-31-08, 05:03 PM
It is the MS4. As far as hp numbers go, I dont really know. I'm hoping to end up in the 400-425 rwhp range with some other stuff. Need to find a good tuner in OK. Currently I have a set of crane gold race accelerated lift 1.7 rockers. Of course they came with hardened push-rods, guide plates, poly locks, and studs.

I'm looking for a good set of heads to throw on it. Nothing milled, just good flow, maybe just ported 243's. Headers, blueprinted and shimmed oil pump. A set of spings! lol Ti retainers of course. New ARP hardware for everything that comes off.

How much do you think a fast 90 and 90mm TB would help with this cam? I've read the 243's dont flow enough to justify the 90 but they will be ported so I dont know.

We'll see what the duty cycle on the injectors is after the tune. Dont wont to buy something this expensive if I dont need them.

This will be my daily driver. I know!!! I'll be changing springs all the time. The cams not very streetable blah blah blah. I've heard all that already so no need to go down that street again. I know the complications of running a cam this big in a daily driver (had a 73 340 Challenger with a crazy cam) but I'm 23 and dont mind the extra effort. Plus I think the looks on peoples faces when I pull up in a caddy thats bumping (and not because of the radio!!!) will be priceless! <--------And NO this is not why I'm going with this cam, just something a little extra that makes it all worth it! Even stock, the car makes a great conversation piece. Its got a Corvette motor in it??? What??? But its a Cadillac! Cadillac's aren't supposed to be fast! haha just wait:lildevil:

However I do take constructive criticism so if any of you guys have any ideas, post up!


My current mods are in my sig. In a nutshell though, I'm at 94% IDC right now at 380 rwhp. I'm definately doing new injectors now. With my new cam I hope to be right about 420 rwhp.

When I put the 90/90 in I gained 10 rwhp but only above 5800 rpm. Down low I lost about 10hp/tq. I went this route to wrap up my bolt-on's in preparation for cam, and then heads down the road.

Good luck with your build. I personally wouldn;t do that particulr cam, BUT, WTF, you're 23...HAVE FUN :D

I'd do the Patriot Xtremes with that cam.

All this cr@p adds up doesn't it :D

-Chris
__________________
2005 CTS-V: Light Plat | No Roof | FG2 | Corsa | UUC Shifter | LPE CAI | FFV v2 Intake Tube | GM Drilled Rotors + Hawk HP+ pads Front HPS Rear + UUC lines | Hotchkis Anti-Sway Bars | Kooks 1 3/4 Jet Hot Coated Long Tube Headers + Hiflow cats | KARS III Cradle Kit | Mamofied Fast90 + NW 90 TB | Mustang Dyno Tuned: 378rwhp / 350rwtq (both SAE).

StealthViggen
01-31-08, 06:03 PM
I second the Vote for the Patriots. I just picked up a set myself for a 1.8 rocker install. With P/V clearance at the ragged edge like you have there, I would not consider anything but a dual spring. The extra insurance is worth it. Broken single spring means broken piston, head, cylnder wall, maybe rod. Broken double is probably at most a bent valve before you catch it.

ctsv154
01-31-08, 06:06 PM
I personally wouldn;t do that particulr cam, BUT, WTF, you're 23...HAVE FUN :D

haha Thats what I plan on doing!!!

Now if I was older and didn't want to worry about reliability than yeah I would have gone smaller. I just want something radical for now. I'm single, have a good job, might as well spend the money on my car before I find a girl to spend it for me!!!

ctsv154
02-07-08, 10:00 PM
My current mods are in my sig. In a nutshell though, I'm at 94% IDC right now at 380 rwhp. I'm definately doing new injectors now. With my new cam I hope to be right about 420 rwhp.


What injector size would you recommend going to. What's the size of a stock 04 LS6?

What would be to big?

ctsv154
02-08-08, 10:48 PM
I didnt think about it but will I need new pushrods with this cam? I dont have anything to measure the length with.

heavymetals
02-09-08, 12:06 AM
Just some thoughts:

Since you aren't reliefing the pistons, you might want to consider solid lifters.

You get any serious hydraulic action in a lifter and you may end up with a bent valve.

As for pushrods, depends on how they ground the cam.

On one that radical I would suspect the base was smaller.

Sure is gonna idle bitchin.

Hope your exhaust shows it off.

ctsv154
02-09-08, 12:25 AM
Just bought my headers yesterday. Dad has a friend that owns an awesome muffler shop. Gonna see if he can hook me up a good deal on 3" all the way out the back with no cats (mainly cause I didnt want to spend the money on them plus no emissions in OK !!!). What mufflers sound good but wont get me in to much trouble with the law? I plan on having some E-cutouts for that!

ctsv154
02-09-08, 12:28 AM
Oh thanks for the suggestions also. I try to take in everything I read and hear and use what I can but sometimes the funds limit things. Thanks for all the help guys. Should I buy a pushrod length gauge and measure or do you think I'll be alright?

heavymetals
02-09-08, 12:37 AM
Buy the right tool and measure what your doing.

A lot of information is at ls1tech ya know?


http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/

StealthV
02-09-08, 11:09 AM
A critical thing to consider when looking for fuel injectors is the fuel pressure used to calculate the flow rate. One will find that brand/company XYZ injectors are not all rated at the same fuel pressure - A 30 lb/hr from company X may be the same as a 24 lb/hr from company Y, just rated at a different pressure.

Stock LS6 fuel injectors are rated 24.889 lbs/hr @ 43.5 psi. Since the fuel rail pressure on a V is higher (58-60 psi), the flow rate is closer to 29-32 lbs/hr (varies with intake manifold pressure).


To calculate horsepower supported by a set of injectors:
(Injector size (lbs/hr) x Desired Maximum Duty Cycle (%) / Desired Brake Specific Fuel Consumption) x number of injectors = horsepower

Using the formula, the stockers support:
(32 x 0.8 / 0.5) x 8 = 410 hp

Stepping up to something like a 60 lb/hr (rated at 43.5 psi) injector with a fuel rail pressure of:
32 psi (stock fuel pump w/ Maggie, YMMV*) = 665 hp
43.5 psi = 768 hp
60 psi = 896 hpHandy formulas to bookmark >> http://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx#Find_HP_Value_of_Selected_Injectors


Since the V is gone from the wreck last week, I've got a new, never used, still in the original package, set of eight 63 lb/hr flow matched injectors for sale. Many say these are the largest injectors one can go with and still have streetable idle and throttle response. Paid $456 six months ago; $425 shipped UPS Ground to your door.

Siemens FI114961 (Mototron INJ-GAS-006) Deka 4 Injectors
Set of eight, dynamically flow-matched within 1%
62.7 lbs/hr @ 43.5 psi fuel rail pressure (72-79 lbs/hr at 58 psi)
http://www.racetronix.com/L107FM.html

ctsv154
02-09-08, 10:40 PM
Buy the right tool and measure what your doing.

A lot of information is at ls1tech ya know?


http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/


Since I already now the base circle radius of the stock cam (should be .748) couldn't I just measure the new cam with a mic and divide by 2 and then what ever the difference is, add that to the pushrod? Then I could use tools I already have and spend the extra on new pushrods if need be! If not, then its free!

ctsv154
02-09-08, 10:43 PM
A critical thing to consider when looking for fuel injectors is the fuel pressure used to calculate the flow rate. One will find that brand/company XYZ injectors are not all rated at the same fuel pressure - A 30 lb/hr from company X may be the same as a 24 lb/hr from company Y, just rated at a different pressure.

Stock LS6 fuel injectors are rated 24.889 lbs/hr @ 43.5 psi. Since the fuel rail pressure on a V is higher (58-60 psi), the flow rate is closer to 29-32 lbs/hr (varies with intake manifold pressure).


To calculate horsepower supported by a set of injectors:
(Injector size (lbs/hr) x Desired Maximum Duty Cycle (%) / Desired Brake Specific Fuel Consumption) x number of injectors = horsepower

Using the formula, the stockers support:
(32 x 0.8 / 0.5) x 8 = 410 hp

Stepping up to something like a 60 lb/hr (rated at 43.5 psi) injector with a fuel rail pressure of:
32 psi (stock fuel pump w/ Maggie, YMMV*) = 665 hp
43.5 psi = 768 hp
60 psi = 896 hpHandy formulas to bookmark >> http://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx#Find_HP_Value_of_Selected_Injectors


Since the V is gone from the wreck last week, I've got a new, never used, still in the original package, set of eight 63 lb/hr flow matched injectors for sale. Many say these are the largest injectors one can go with and still have streetable idle and throttle response. Paid $456 six months ago; $425 shipped UPS Ground to your door.

Siemens FI114961 (Mototron INJ-GAS-006) Deka 4 Injectors
Set of eight, dynamically flow-matched within 1%
62.7 lbs/hr @ 43.5 psi fuel rail pressure (72-79 lbs/hr at 58 psi)
http://www.racetronix.com/L107FM.html


I would really love to have some but I'll never use that much injector by your calculations. I'm looking into a smaller set at a more reasonable price. Thanks for the offer though!

ctsv154
02-09-08, 11:09 PM
Well the base circle radius on the ms4 is .701 (stock is .748) by my meter. Thats a difference of .047". So you think I should get a pushrod .050" longer? Does anybody know the length of the pushrod that comes with the Crane gold race adjustable aluminum roller rockers? They are 1.7 ratio but have the accelerated lift design so I think they came with a different length pushrod but I can find a length for them anywhere. And they are already in the car so its kind of hard to measure em.

heavymetals
02-10-08, 01:03 AM
I think you should quit screwing around and buy the right tool.

Also. if you have adjustables then what are you doing?

You shoud be able to determine how much one turn equals (usually .050").

Use a standard 7.4" pushrod and add the differance it takes to get 0 lash -.010".

Then get the nearest pushrod that is shorter to that #.

I adjust loose to about .017 from 0 lash.

Some go down to .005 but that is usually with solid lifters.

CTSV_Rob
02-10-08, 11:16 AM
A critical thing to consider when looking for fuel injectors is the fuel pressure used to calculate the flow rate. One will find that brand/company XYZ injectors are not all rated at the same fuel pressure - A 30 lb/hr from company X may be the same as a 24 lb/hr from company Y, just rated at a different pressure.

Stock LS6 fuel injectors are rated 24.889 lbs/hr @ 43.5 psi. Since the fuel rail pressure on a V is higher (58-60 psi), the flow rate is closer to 29-32 lbs/hr (varies with intake manifold pressure).



To calculate horsepower supported by a set of injectors:
(Injector size (lbs/hr) x Desired Maximum Duty Cycle (%) / Desired Brake Specific Fuel Consumption) x number of injectors = horsepower

Using the formula, the stockers support:
(32 x 0.8 / 0.5) x 8 = 410 hp

Stepping up to something like a 60 lb/hr (rated at 43.5 psi) injector with a fuel rail pressure of:
32 psi (stock fuel pump w/ Maggie, YMMV*) = 665 hp
43.5 psi = 768 hp
60 psi = 896 hpHandy formulas to bookmark >> http://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx#Find_HP_Value_of_Selected_Injectors



Since the V is gone from the wreck last week, I've got a new, never used, still in the original package, set of eight 63 lb/hr flow matched injectors for sale. Many say these are the largest injectors one can go with and still have streetable idle and throttle response. Paid $456 six months ago; $425 shipped UPS Ground to your door.
Siemens FI114961 (Mototron INJ-GAS-006) Deka 4 Injectors


Set of eight, dynamically flow-matched within 1%


62.7 lbs/hr @ 43.5 psi fuel rail pressure (72-79 lbs/hr at 58 psi)


http://www.racetronix.com/L107FM.html (http://</p><p><blockquote><font color=)

CAn you run these on a motor with just bolt on's or is it too much injector? If it will work with my current config I will be interested. Will the Tune need to be "teaked" for these larger injectors?

Any other parts left you want to get rid of Rick?

ctsv154
02-10-08, 04:15 PM
I think you should quit screwing around and buy the right tool.

Also. if you have adjustables then what are you doing?

You shoud be able to determine how much one turn equals (usually .050").

Use a standard 7.4" pushrod and add the differance it takes to get 0 lash -.010".

Then get the nearest pushrod that is shorter to that #.

I adjust loose to about .017 from 0 lash.

Some go down to .005 but that is usually with solid lifters.

I apologize if you think I'm screwing around. I'm trying to figure all this out before I start because the car cant be down for more than 1 or 2 days. I dont have the time to put the stuff in and then wait on pushrods. The stock valve geometry is correct. So by using the base circle radius of the cam and the measurements of the stock valve train components, I can make an extremely close estimation of the correct parts to install if I know the base circle radius and the measurements of the parts going in. Its just common sense.

heavymetals
02-10-08, 04:30 PM
Common sense is to get the right tool.

If your using adjustables you should be able to tell if you need a new set of pushrods.

Either your gonna be able to adjust within the right range or your not.

CTSV_Rob
02-10-08, 04:44 PM
Hey Lynden,

Looks like your having fun here.

:ThreadJack:

Quick question, I may be down in LA next weekend and might be able to sneak away for a little bit. Will you be around the LA area?

:ReturnToOriginalThread:

ctsv154
02-10-08, 05:07 PM
I plan on measuring them and making sure the roller is centered on the valve when I put them in. I'm not just going to throw something in there and call it good based on numbers alone without first backing up the numbers with hard measurements. If its wrong then I'll change pushrods. But its simple mathematics and there is more than one way to skin a cat.

heavymetals
02-10-08, 05:08 PM
I am always around, but I may be doing some contract work.

Pm me and I'll shoot you my #.

You have to get Ernie to take you for a "white knuckler" ride.