: Order your CTS-V below MSRP



Cadillac Tony
01-29-08, 12:41 PM
Hello everybody. After returning from NAIAS in Detroit and seeing the new V in person I am really looking forward to getting these in. If you haven't already, check the "lawfive live from NAIAS" thread to read my impressions of the car after sitting in it (as well as photos of the shifter paddles).

Cadillac dealers will not be getting our consensus and allocation until June/July, but I am already accepting pre-orders on 2009 CTS-Vs. Pricing for forum members will be $599.99 below MSRP, plus our admin fee and your local taxes and fees. Cars can be shipped to you for whatever the actual cost is, but the best way to save some money is to fly in to Florida and drive it home.

If you'd like to purchase your CTS-V from a 10 year veteran who will not hassle you about the price AND be able to demonstrate the operation and features of your new car, give me a call or email. We can order whatever color and options you'd like, and your deposit will guarantee you one of the first ones built.

Thank you for looking. :thumbsup:

RunningOnEMT
01-29-08, 12:58 PM
what type of deposit you taking tony?

i am SERIOUSLY considering the upgrade

Cadillac Tony
01-29-08, 01:11 PM
$1,000 on a credit card or check will guarantee an order out of our first shipment. We also do not install front plate brackets prior to delivery unless the customer requests it, so no worries about ugly holes in your new V's bumper.

We're still waiting on final confirmation from GM on how the option structure will be laid out, but I gathered the following from my discussion at NAIAS with the factory reps:

-Sunroof will either be optional or standard with a "delete" option for those that don't want it
-There will be a "Performance Package" option that will probably consist of the Recaros, tuned shocks and the Alcantara steering wheel
-Painted wheels will probably be standard, with polished as an option

RunningOnEMT
01-29-08, 01:12 PM
we'll be talking....

HushH
01-29-08, 05:14 PM
Tony, I gotta give my original V salesman first shot, but if he doesn't come through I'll be planning a trip to Orlando.

Cadillac Tony
01-29-08, 05:56 PM
No problem, Hush- you're a class act for being loyal to your Salesman who treated you right. :thumbsup:

Jpjr
01-29-08, 09:29 PM
No problem, Hush- you're a class act for being loyal to your Salesman who treated you right. :thumbsup:

Is there any reason to believe that any dealer will recieve more than 1 or 2 max in the first shipment? How many weeks/months will it be before the second shipment? I am speaking from a bad experience lol...

Dr Chill
01-29-08, 10:39 PM
Hi Tony. I would have taken you up on your original offer but since then I operated on the owner of a Cadillac dealership in FL. He was so pleased with the result he offered me his first CTS-V allocation at his cost. It's nice having connections.

Cadillac Tony
01-30-08, 12:12 AM
Wow- that sure is a fantastic connection to have! I guess I'd probably give a deal like that to someone who got me through surgery in one piece, too. :)

It was still great talking to you, and I look forward to your review of the new V.

Cadillac Tony
01-30-08, 12:16 AM
Is there any reason to believe that any dealer will recieve more than 1 or 2 max in the first shipment? How many weeks/months will it be before the second shipment? I am speaking from a bad experience lol...

You can count on them to be in short supply- I can't imagine a dealer getting more than 2 in the first shipment. The way Cadillac decides allocation is by taking your V-Series sales and regular CTS sales, then using them as part of an unknown equation to determine how many CTS-Vs you might sell.

We've had very strong sales of both, so we expect a good allocation of CTS-Vs. That being said, it's a limited production model, so if you're looking for one the first year you might want to consider placing an order.

V-Love
01-30-08, 03:54 AM
Hello everybody. After returning from NAIAS in Detroit and seeing the new V in person I am really looking forward to getting these in. If you haven't already, check the "lawfive live from NAIAS" thread to read my impressions of the car after sitting in it (as well as photos of the shifter paddles).

Cadillac dealers will not be getting our consensus and allocation until June/July, but I am already accepting pre-orders on 2009 CTS-Vs. Pricing for forum members will be $599.99 below MSRP, plus our admin fee and your local taxes and fees. Cars can be shipped to you for whatever the actual cost is, but the best way to save some money is to fly in to Florida and drive it home.

If you'd like to purchase your CTS-V from a 10 year veteran who will not hassle you about the price AND be able to demonstrate the operation and features of your new car, give me a call or email. We can order whatever color and options you'd like, and your deposit will guarantee you one of the first ones built.

Thank you for looking. :thumbsup:

Whats your admin. fee? I bought my last two in NY but I'm a Keys boy now.

Cadillac Tony
01-30-08, 11:37 AM
We're the lowest in Central Florida- $599 (our nearby competitors are 700 and 800). That's the reasoning behind the discount, so you pay MSRP and not above (even with the fee).

neuronbob
01-30-08, 11:13 PM
If I do this, I would be a first-time Caddy buyer, so no loyalty to local dealers yet. Couple questions for you...

a) If I choose to have the vehicle transported to my location, which shipper do you prefer? (Though honestly, if I did this I would probably drive down and p/u)
b) Deposit refundable?

Very seriously considering this offer.

lawfive
01-31-08, 12:58 AM
$599.99 below MSRP

First, of course: "DAMMIT Tony, I said I was going to wait a year. Don't make it harder, man!!" :suspense:



-There will be a "Performance Package" option that will probably consist of the Recaros, tuned shocks and the Alcantara steering wheel


I seem to recall that Performance Traction Management was also part of this option group, Tony. That would make this package "optional but mandatory" for me.




I said 'package.'

Cadillac Tony
01-31-08, 09:58 AM
If I do this, I would be a first-time Caddy buyer, so no loyalty to local dealers yet. Couple questions for you...

a) If I choose to have the vehicle transported to my location, which shipper do you prefer? (Though honestly, if I did this I would probably drive down and p/u)
b) Deposit refundable?

Very seriously considering this offer.

Exotic Car Transport has been my preference when shipping XLR-Vs and other expensive cars. Fully enclosed trailers with long ramps (to keep the font from scraping), and every time I use them my car gets loaded next to Ferraris and Lamborghinis- they know how to handle exotics.

The deposit would be refundable all the way until we place the order. Most people who buy a V-Series car want an exact car (color and options), so I can't be put in a situation where someone orders a White Diamond stick shift with no sunroof and painted wheels, only to have them back up. Once we place the order, it's yours.


First, of course: "DAMMIT Tony, I said I was going to wait a year. Don't make it harder, man!!"

Didn't you notice at NAIAS that I was working my voodoo salesman mojo on you? :lol:

XLRvman
02-01-08, 10:54 AM
Tony respectively, how can u guys accept orders since u cannot order till May and then my understanding is that they r buiding max of 4,000 CTSV's, there are 1400 caddy dealers whcih works out to 2.86 cars per dealer? So if u accept orders for more that 3 folks, will they ever c a car??
Snowed in with 10 inchs of snow in the Windy city!! Hope AWD is an option!!

Cadillac Tony
02-01-08, 11:31 AM
Unfortunately, AWD will not be an option in 2009.

Regarding the number of cars, not every Cadillac Dealer is qualified to order V-Series cars- you need to have a Certified Salesperson, Certified Technician and a special set of tools for working on the cars before Cadillac will even allow a Dealer to order the cars. At the time we order the car, we tell the system whether it is an order for stock, or a sold unit. If I take 5 deposits, I can get 5 cars.

Of course there's a limit - I couldn't get 40 of them - but within a reasonable amount, GM will give priority to sold orders over stock orders. They want the cars out on the road, so they'll obviously send more cars to the Dealer selling them as opposed to having them sitting on a lot somewhere.

Katshot
02-01-08, 12:12 PM
You think there's that many that will order for stock?

Cadillac Tony
02-01-08, 02:08 PM
With an automatic available now? Heck yes. We had TONS of people attracted to the 1st gen V just for the looks alone, who then got really excited when I started talking power and price, but then - whoops! Stick only? Sorry.

I expect CTS-V sales to be huge for Cadillac is 2009, as the manual only was a huge limiting factor. The STS-V was too big and soft to appeal to the crowd looking for a 4-door Corvette, but a lot of them need an auto.

Katshot
02-01-08, 02:33 PM
Kind of blows a hole in the idea that CTS-V owners are such "purists" huh?

keithsm2
02-01-08, 02:56 PM
what kind of price range are we talking??

Cadillac Tony
02-01-08, 03:45 PM
Kind of blows a hole in the idea that CTS-V owners are such "purists" huh?

Not at all- I would argue that 99% of current CTS-V owners are purists. The problem is that purists make up a small percentage of the market, and in order to be successful you need to have broad appeal. I think we would all agree that the Corvette is an amazing sports car and that there are some serious gearheads who own 'Vettes, so why do they offer an automatic 'Vette? Volume. It's simple business sense to make your product appealing to as many people as possible.


what kind of price range are we talking??

Let me preface this answer by saying that this is TOTAL GUESSWORK on my part- GM has told me nothing about pricing, but I have come to this conclusion based on experience, logic and reading between the lines of what I was told at NAIAS.

I suspect a base MSRP of roughly $59,000, with several available options.

-Premium paint $995
-Polished Wheels $1,000
-Automatic $1,400
-Sunroof $1,000
-Performance package (Recaros, microfiber wheel, PTM and tuned shocks) $5,000

That pricing structure would make sense to me, and would put a fully loaded one in the $68-$69k range.

Please don't run and post this on 800 different forums, because this is not official, or even a rumor. It's my educated guess, and I could be totally wrong.

Katshot
02-01-08, 04:13 PM
I was trying to point out that if the manual ONLY was a "huge" limiting factor in CTS-V sales, then the idea of their owners being purists will come to an end next year. And realistically if there was such huge interest in auto trans optioned cars previously, then it follows that most likely, a large percentage of current owners are not REALLY purists but rather people who happen to be able to drive a stick but would rather have had an auto.

Cadillac Tony
02-01-08, 04:32 PM
I was trying to point out that if the manual ONLY was a "huge" limiting factor in CTS-V sales, then the idea of their owners being purists will come to an end next year. And realistically if there was such huge interest in auto trans optioned cars previously, then it follows that most likely, a large percentage of current owners are not REALLY purists but rather people who happen to be able to drive a stick but would rather have had an auto.

I think your logic is a little flawed there- I don't recall a single person who bought a CTS-V from me that wanted an auto but was willing to accept the manual. It's also kind of silly to suggest that choosing a standard shift is a prerequisite to be a "purist". There's plenty of accomplished racers and people who bleed performance that choose the F1 transmission in their Ferrari or the E-Gear in a Lamborghini.

Chances are that the enthusiasts will continue to buy the manual, but we'll see a new group of owners that are limited to an automatic due to either their daily commute or physical limitations. I'm sure there are plenty of purists out there with bad knees.

thebigjimsho
02-01-08, 06:52 PM
I think your logic is a little flawed there- I don't recall a single person who bought a CTS-V from me that wanted an auto but was willing to accept the manual. It's also kind of silly to suggest that choosing a standard shift is a prerequisite to be a "purist". There's plenty of accomplished racers and people who bleed performance that choose the F1 transmission in their Ferrari or the E-Gear in a Lamborghini.

Chances are that the enthusiasts will continue to buy the manual, but we'll see a new group of owners that are limited to an automatic due to either their daily commute or physical limitations. I'm sure there are plenty of purists out there with bad knees.Just like the SHO. Watch how that car fared in its earlier years and then when they offered an auto...

Either way, I was an earlier, MTX only "purist"...

ZEUSROTTY
02-01-08, 07:52 PM
$1,000 on a credit card or check will guarantee an order out of our first shipment. We also do not install front plate brackets prior to delivery unless the customer requests it, so no worries about ugly holes in your new V's bumper.

We're still waiting on final confirmation from GM on how the option structure will be laid out, but I gathered the following from my discussion at NAIAS with the factory reps:

-Sunroof will either be optional or standard with a "delete" option for those that don't want it
-There will be a "Performance Package" option that will probably consist of the Recaros, tuned shocks and the Alcantara steering wheel
-Painted wheels will probably be standard, with polished as an option

my dealership took a 500 deposit for the same deal, but i really dont like them at all... will you take 500?

Katshot
02-02-08, 08:52 AM
Just like the SHO. Watch how that car fared in its earlier years and then when they offered an auto...

Either way, I was an earlier, MTX only "purist"...

You're right. But I'm kind of thinking that the car being FWD is what ultimately did it in. Still, to this day whenever I see one of the Gen. 1's or 2's, I get to thinking about picking one up again. My son ever tell you about the Super SHO he had a few years back? Great car but what a money-pit it was. VERY mixed feelings the day we sold it.
As for how certain transmissions can kill a car, how about the Lincoln LS? Or how about the upcoming Dodge Challenger? IMO, the lack of a manual trans on these cars was and will be a HUGE mistake.

Cadillac Tony
02-02-08, 10:18 AM
my dealership took a 500 deposit for the same deal, but i really dont like them at all... will you take 500?

I'd be happy to reserve one for you, but I would need $1,000.



As for how certain transmissions can kill a car, how about the Lincoln LS? Or how about the upcoming Dodge Challenger? IMO, the lack of a manual trans on these cars was and will be a HUGE mistake.

We also own a Lincoln Dealership, and the few manual LSs that they got in became permanent fixtures- if I recall correctly, it took until 2002 to get rid their last 2000 with a stick. :eek:

The large majority of people doesn't care about a car being automatic- in fact, most prefer it. Us folks posting on internet forums and talking about modding a car that won't even be released for 9 months are the hardcore enthusiasts, and we represent a tiny portion of the market. Like I said before, take a look at the sales mix for automatics vs. manuals in Ferraris and Lamborghinis- it's something like 90/10 IIRC.

The first gen CTS-V proved that magazine writers and hardcore drivers want a manual, but the bulk of the buying public does not. As long as they continue to offer the choice between stick or auto, having the auto will not hurt the image of the CTS-V, only increase the sales.

CVP33
02-02-08, 02:28 PM
I suspect a base MSRP of roughly $59,000, with several available options.

-Premium paint $995
-Polished Wheels $1,000
-Automatic $1,400
-Sunroof $1,000
-Performance package (Recaros, microfiber wheel, PTM and tuned shocks) $5,000

That pricing structure would make sense to me, and would put a fully loaded one in the $68-$69k range.



Here's my post from January 20th. We come to the same conclusion, just a little difference in how we get there.

$60,000 - Base MSRP
$745 - Destination
$1,000 - Sunroof
$1,900 - 6 speed Automatic w/ paddle shift (same charge in the CTS)
$2,000 - Performance Package = Recaro Seats, Performance Traction Management (already listed as optional and not standard)
$995 - Some goofy ass paint - $1,000 (thunder gray, crystal red already upcharges on the current CTS)
$2,000 - Guzzler Tax

Sunroof seems like a no-brainer as some "purists" will want a solid body, so it must be an option. The automatic will be the same charge as the base CTS. We know the recaro seats are optional, but some may have missed that the "Performance Traction Management is in fact an option and not standard. My guess is this will be grouped with the seats to justify a $2,000 upcharge. The special paint codes are already available on the base CTS, again a no-brainer. So all told:

Base = $62,745
Fully loaded = $68,640

thebigjimsho
02-02-08, 02:37 PM
What is this? The Prattin' Price is Right?

thebigjimsho
02-02-08, 02:41 PM
You're right. But I'm kind of thinking that the car being FWD is what ultimately did it in. Still, to this day whenever I see one of the Gen. 1's or 2's, I get to thinking about picking one up again. My son ever tell you about the Super SHO he had a few years back? Great car but what a money-pit it was. VERY mixed feelings the day we sold it.
As for how certain transmissions can kill a car, how about the Lincoln LS? Or how about the upcoming Dodge Challenger? IMO, the lack of a manual trans on these cars was and will be a HUGE mistake.My friends freaked when they found out I dropped $51 large on a CTS-V. Of course, they love the car but I had them thinking I was getting a 300C or G35.

Including the $14G purchase price of the SHO, I dropped about $50G on my '92 SHO over 10 years...it was super in my eyes. Maybe in the wrong way...

thebigjimsho
02-02-08, 03:24 PM
What is this? The Prattin' Price is Right?1ytCEuuW2_A

RightTurn
02-02-08, 08:23 PM
I knew that was coming. :alchi:

barry007
02-02-08, 09:02 PM
I heard 73k msrp fully loaded




Let me preface this answer by saying that this is TOTAL GUESSWORK on my part- GM has told me nothing about pricing, but I have come to this conclusion based on experience, logic and reading between the lines of what I was told at NAIAS.

I suspect a base MSRP of roughly $59,000, with several available options.

-Premium paint $995
-Polished Wheels $1,000
-Automatic $1,400
-Sunroof $1,000
-Performance package (Recaros, microfiber wheel, PTM and tuned shocks) $5,000


I heard 73k fully loaded for msrp
b


That pricing structure would make sense to me, and would put a fully loaded one in the $68-$69k range.

Please don't run and post this on 800 different forums, because this is not official, or even a rumor. It's my educated guess, and I could be totally wrong.

Cadillac Tony
02-03-08, 12:31 AM
Well, I did forget to factor in the Gas Guzzler tax, so if my other guesses were correct that'd put the price around 71k. I could be way off on option prices and correct on total- who knows?

I know the $73k rumor is popular, but 6 months ago there was another popular rumor about an LS7 under the hood that even got printed in Motor Trend. We shall see....

HITMONEY
02-08-08, 08:12 PM
I'm in for the 09 V.

Thanks Tony.

Cadillac Tony
02-08-08, 09:04 PM
No problem, Hit.

Congratulations. :thumbsup:

SkullV
02-17-08, 02:51 PM
I was at the Chicago auto show this weekend and after asking 3 different caddy reps and one UAW guy I got price estimates from $53k-$75k.....noone knows how much its going to be, and for the few who do....they are not telling!

Jpjr
02-17-08, 08:23 PM
i spoke to the owner of a caddy dealership in northern california last week as i was buying a car for my wife. he said he has no problem with msrp, and says the early feedback from the cts buying base is that very few people that are interested in a cts will want to make the step up to the v. he says 400hp was pushing it, but the idea of 550hp simply does not appeal to most that want to drive the car. after thinking about it, i tend to agree with him. why would you want to pay 20k more for a gas guzzler? i think the v will have about the same appeal as the M5 to 5 series drivers, which is relatively little. bottom line he had no problem agreeing to sticker and fully expects to get one in november or december based upon his caddy sales.

Cadillac Tony
02-17-08, 09:37 PM
says the early feedback from the cts buying base is that very few people that are interested in a cts will want to make the step up to the v. he says 400hp was pushing it, but the idea of 550hp simply does not appeal to most that want to drive the car. after thinking about it, i tend to agree with him. why would you want to pay 20k more for a gas guzzler?

They're not going after the CTS owners with this car, they're targeting AMG and M owners, and people who see the value in $20k more for a ridiculous level of performance in a 4 door.

Most people spending $60k+ on a car aren't too worried about the gas mileage it gets, either. :)

thebigjimsho
02-18-08, 12:23 AM
Yep, the first time around most of the guys I met are saw here who had Vs weren't Caddy loyalists. And there was some insane overpaying going on. I was fortunate to get MSRP. Obviously, an argument can be made about what a possible recession might do, but your northern California dealer is not a prophet...

Jpjr
02-18-08, 06:27 AM
They're not going after the CTS owners with this car, they're targeting AMG and M owners, and people who see the value in $20k more for a ridiculous level of performance in a 4 door.

Most people spending $60k+ on a car aren't too worried about the gas mileage it gets, either. :)

okay, that is like saying that chevy is not going after corvette owners with the zr1... a fair point but far from true. they are certainly going after cts owners as part of the broader appeal.. namely us.

the point is that when you could get a cts-v for low 50's the crossover potential from the base cts was much better than it will be now.

the other point is that the owner i spoke with owns a dodge dealer and currently has $10k markups on the challenger. he said the pre-orders have been insane. when comparing the new V to that car, he doesn't see nearly as much interest and does not plan on marking it up at all based on early demand. that was the main point actually.

StealthV
02-18-08, 10:35 AM
Challengers exist so people between 50 and dead have something in their garage to rub with a diaper and take to car shows.

Seems to me a V is more of a luxurious daily driver that can also be thrashed on the roadcourse on weekends. And do a car show. And spank cars like Challengers with the owners being completely clueless as to what just did the spanking.

Current V6 CTS owners aren't the target; where the Tuetonic hotrod triplets play is the market.

Jpjr
02-18-08, 03:27 PM
Challengers exist so people between 50 and dead have something in their garage to rub with a diaper and take to car shows.

Seems to me a V is more of a luxurious daily driver that can also be thrashed on the roadcourse on weekends. And do a car show. And spank cars like Challengers with the owners being completely clueless as to what just did the spanking.

Current V6 CTS owners aren't the target; where the Tuetonic hotrod triplets play is the market.

We can justify it however we want, but the fact is that the interest level in the new Challenger is worlds above the interest level for the new V. Even from people who have no intention in buying either. There were literally people camped out to get on the order list a few months ago. Were talking about a $45k SRT with a $10k markup.... this is not far off from where the V will be priced.

I'm looking forward to MSRP. I could probably even wait and get a discount.

Cadillac Tony
02-18-08, 03:36 PM
The Challenger is not only a nostalgic nameplate, but has also been on the cover of magazines on and off since 2006. The CTS-V is not a houselhold name yet, nor has it enjoyed any exposure until this month. Wait a few months and you'll see a quickly rising demand for these cars now that the word is getting out.

At the end of the day, the CTS-V is always going to be built and sold in far more exclusive numbers than a car like a Challenger or Mustang. What Dodge/Chrysler is doing has no impact on Cadillac, as the two cars couldn't be more worlds apart.

Katshot
02-19-08, 09:18 AM
Sharp criticism of the Challenger StealthV.
I think it's tough to compare the Challenger to the V. Two completely different cars. It would be like comparing the V to a Mustang. I think the V will have it's audience but it will never approach the interest level of the Challenger. The V is simply more of a niche market car, and on a much higher plain.
I can only imagine what the interest level would be for the Challenger if it was going to offer a manual trans option from the start rather than in year two. Oh, and as for thinking that those SRT cars will be easy pickin's for V owners, I wouldn't be so sure. My guess is a whole lot of owners will be modding them right from the start. Something that will be a whole lot cheaper and easier than V owners will be facing.

thebigjimsho
02-19-08, 09:53 AM
Sharp criticism of the Challenger StealthV.
I think it's tough to compare the Challenger to the V. Two completely different cars. It would be like comparing the V to a Mustang. I think the V will have it's audience but it will never approach the interest level of the Challenger. The V is simply more of a niche market car, and on a much higher plain.
I can only imagine what the interest level would be for the Challenger if it was going to offer a manual trans option from the start rather than in year two. Oh, and as for thinking that those SRT cars will be easy pickin's for V owners, I wouldn't be so sure. My guess is a whole lot of owners will be modding them right from the start. Something that will be a whole lot cheaper and easier than V owners will be facing.A 2+2 weighing 4100lbs? If my non-moddable(according to you) V2 loses to a modified Challenger, then I'll spank it with my lightweight, modded V1...

ylwjacket
02-19-08, 10:16 AM
I hope the V remains a secret. It's better that way.

And, I have no intention whatsoever of trying to compete with a person who drives a challenger or a Mustang - econmically, socially, or 0-60.

Katshot
02-19-08, 11:03 AM
A 2+2 weighing 4100lbs? If my non-moddable(according to you) V2 loses to a modified Challenger, then I'll spank it with my lightweight, modded V1...

"non-moddable"?!
Try reading the friggin' post before you start typing the barbs. All I said was that I figured the Challenger would be cheaper and easier to mod.

thebigjimsho
02-19-08, 03:20 PM
"non-moddable"?!
Try reading the friggin' post before you start typing the barbs. All I said was that I figured the Challenger would be cheaper and easier to mod.HAHAHAHAHAHA You're too easy sometimes. Scratch that...all the time...

StealthV
02-20-08, 12:09 AM
Sharp criticism of the Challenger StealthV.
I think it's tough to compare the Challenger to the V. Two completely different cars. It would be like comparing the V to a Mustang. I think the V will have it's audience but it will never approach the interest level of the Challenger. The V is simply more of a niche market car, and on a much higher plain.

Kat - You're arguing on my side. Read my post and the one before it for context. :nono:


I can only imagine what the interest level would be for the Challenger if it was going to offer a manual trans option from the start rather than in year two.

Manual transmissions don't sell in America. That's a fact not an opinion. The initial lack of it in a Challenger won't affect sales. In fact the lack of a slushbox is probably the biggest reason why the V1 never sold well and continues to hurt it today on the used market.


My guess is a whole lot of owners will be modding them right from the start. Something that will be a whole lot cheaper and easier than V owners will be facing.

Challengers will never be as cheap or easy to mod since they don't have the ten year history of factory and nearly infinite aftermarket parts and speed shops working with the Gen III/IV engines.


Oh, and as for thinking that those SRT cars will be easy pickin's for V owners, I wouldn't be so sure.

It will take a seriously modded Challenger to keep up with a stock V2 or a well modified V1. Have you ever experienced a V1 that can't get traction below 100 mph? It *was* my daily driver.

:cow:

lawfive
02-20-08, 11:06 AM
Lots more mods out there for the Chevy engines. But one nice big easy one exists for the 6.1L Hemi: a bolt-on supercharger kit for around $6K that'll put 500/500 to the rear wheels.


Have you ever experienced a V1 that can't get traction below 100 mph?
Yeah, at 0 mph when I'm not careful.

charheep
02-20-08, 02:54 PM
I would take you up on this offer, but I have been working with a salesguy from Heritage Cadillac that is actually a decent guy. If he cant get me the one I want, I will definetly look you up. And a trip to Florida to pick it up and drive it home isnt too bad either. :)

The Tony Show
02-20-08, 03:53 PM
You know L5- I've had those same traction problems at 0 a few times. :D

Katshot
02-21-08, 09:44 AM
Kat - You're arguing on my side. Read my post and the one before it for context. :nono:



Manual transmissions don't sell in America. That's a fact not an opinion. The initial lack of it in a Challenger won't affect sales. In fact the lack of a slushbox is probably the biggest reason why the V1 never sold well and continues to hurt it today on the used market.



Challengers will never be as cheap or easy to mod since they don't have the ten year history of factory and nearly infinite aftermarket parts and speed shops working with the Gen III/IV engines.



It will take a seriously modded Challenger to keep up with a stock V2 or a well modified V1. Have you ever experienced a V1 that can't get traction below 100 mph? It *was* my daily driver.

:cow:

When I said I thought interest would be higher if they offered a manual trans option, I meant "in addition to" an automatic, not "rather than" an automatic. There ARE a decent amount of enthusiasts that will wait for the already promised manual trans.

As for the modability issue, I simply think the Challenger will be easier and cheaper to modify. V1 cars had off-the-shelf engines that already had great aftermarket support. V2 has an all-new engine, plus a ton of powertrain/chassis integrated programming that will probably create multiple roadblocks for tuners. Not to say that these challenges can't be overcome, they'll simply take a great deal of effort. And we all know that big R&D budgets aren't bestowed on niche market cars as readily as ones that have a broader market. Again, I'm not saying it can't be done, or won't be done, IMO, it simply won't be as cheap & easy.

V-Love
02-21-08, 12:58 PM
There is no such thing as a non-moddable car. The boys in this forum will rip it apart on the first day. I'm pretty sure it was Silver Baron that ripped his apart right away and put a roll cage in and all kinds of other stuff to race it in Canada or something. I couldn't believe that he would do that to a brand new 2004 when they first came out. It will happen again. I hope everyone is as cool as the first time around.

CadV
02-22-08, 04:30 AM
We can justify it however we want, but the fact is that the interest level in the new Challenger is worlds above the interest level for the new V. Even from people who have no intention in buying either. There were literally people camped out to get on the order list a few months ago. Were talking about a $45k SRT with a $10k markup.... this is not far off from where the V will be priced.

I'm looking forward to MSRP. I could probably even wait and get a discount.

Who cares about interest level all that means is we are not getting ripped off by dealers. You guys thinking the new V is going to be 60k are in for a reality check. A Loaded CTS-V is going to be 70ish.

Katshot
02-22-08, 09:35 AM
Who cares about interest level all that means is we are not getting ripped off by dealers. You guys thinking the new V is going to be 60k are in for a reality check. A Loaded CTS-V is going to be 70ish.

I think you're probably right on that pricing, but GM does have some time to adjust actual pricing.

thebigjimsho
02-22-08, 12:51 PM
Who cares about interest level all that means is we are not getting ripped off by dealers. You guys thinking the new V is going to be 60k are in for a reality check. A Loaded CTS-V is going to be 70ish.So a fully loaded V and a base V will be the same price? If there's 8 grand in options, what revelation did you just bestow upon us?

Katshot
02-22-08, 01:42 PM
So a fully loaded V and a base V will be the same price? If there's 8 grand in options, what revelation did you just bestow upon us?

Not sure what you're picking at. I believe he's just stating that he believes a loaded V will be around $70K. Why so much hostility and attitude?

thebigjimsho
02-22-08, 07:18 PM
Not sure what you're picking at. I believe he's just stating that he believes a loaded V will be around $70K. Why so much hostility and attitude?WHAT? Did you read what I quoted? If a fully loaded V is around $70k, per the quote, and there was $8k in options, then a base V is $62k. No reality check needed. Hostility and attitude twas not started by me. You're so willing to be offended to anything I say, you blow right past simple reading comprehension. I feel bad for you...

StealthV
02-22-08, 08:49 PM
Is modability a word?

CTSV_Rob
02-22-08, 10:08 PM
If your using it.

Rich H
02-22-08, 10:17 PM
Need to be careful how the term "loaded" is used with respect to the V2. This car will be fully loaded at 4200 to 4300 lbs no matter what options are on it - with the exception of the automatic tranny and oversized vista glass on the roof which is meant for a luxury SUV not a luxury sports sedan.

Katshot
02-23-08, 08:22 AM
WHAT? Did you read what I quoted? If a fully loaded V is around $70k, per the quote, and there was $8k in options, then a base V is $62k. No reality check needed. Hostility and attitude twas not started by me. You're so willing to be offended to anything I say, you blow right past simple reading comprehension. I feel bad for you...

I think you missed his point. As usual, you tend to jump to attack before thinking.
I believe all he was trying to point out was that most people seem to be settling in on the base price of the V2 when referring to the car's price. Possibly overlooking the probability that the base and loaded prices may be several thousand apart. Notice I said MAY be.
Then YOU post:
So a fully loaded V and a base V will be the same price? If there's 8 grand in options, what revelation did you just bestow upon us?
First of all, I'm totally lost by your first sentence. Doesn't make sense to me. He never said a base and loaded V2 would be the same price. Matter of fact, I think he was stating just the opposite.
Then your second sentence read as very condescending. Again, not atypical for you.

StealthV
02-23-08, 10:51 AM
You two are grounded until further notice.


Looks like modability may be a word after all. :yup:


http://www.forumspile.com/Thread-Direction.jpg

CTSV_Rob
02-24-08, 12:35 AM
The father of Mod hell has spoken.

You mind if I use Modability?

Cadillac Tony
02-24-08, 01:15 AM
They can argue all they want Stealth- thanks for keeping the thread up top. :thumbsup: :D



....oversized vista glass on the roof which is meant for a luxury SUV not a luxury sports sedan.

Who says glass roofs don't belong on Performance cars?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v692/Firebomba/FerrariSuperamerica_roof2.jpg

Jpjr
02-24-08, 06:06 AM
As far as $70k goes I would say that final pricing is going to be influenced by the relative lack of interest in the new V. I expect it to be on the lower end of whatever range they are thinking. My dealer literally can't keep the CTS in stock but has not had a single person ask about the V besides me. I will probably wait and get one using my employee discount after all.

Cadillac Tony
02-24-08, 12:32 PM
2 preorders here already, and the car doesn't even come out for 8 months. One Dealer's lack of enthusiast customers does not necessarily represent the entire country.

Jpjr
02-24-08, 03:26 PM
2 preorders here already, and the car doesn't even come out for 8 months. One Dealer's lack of enthusiast customers does not necessarily represent the entire country.

I'm not sure a dealer representing on a cadillac enthusiast website does either ;) I am buying the car, just not sure that sales will exceed the old V's at this point.

CTSV_Rob
02-24-08, 04:53 PM
I would be surprised if they don't.

The only way that won't happen is if the economy continues to go down the drain. The new 09 V is one hell of a car from what I have seen so far. If I didn't already own a Gen 1 I would most definetly bump up to the 09.

For the price I wouldn't be surprised to see more Bimmer and Mercedes fans in an 09 V.

Rich H
02-24-08, 06:47 PM
Who says glass roofs don't belong on Performance cars?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v692/Firebomba/FerrariSuperamerica_roof2.jpg

Not a luxury sports sedan plus you can remove this piece of oversize glass at will and likely lighten the car by at least 100+ lbs. :D

StealthV
02-24-08, 08:08 PM
For the price I wouldn't be surprised to see more Bimmer and Mercedes fans in an 09 V.

The price will pull them in and the dealership experience will turn them off - Says the Bimmer owner. :D

NormV
02-24-08, 08:59 PM
The automatic transmiSsion owners looking for 400-500+ HP are going have quite a selection of 4-doors in the $60K range.

E65 for $85 compard to the S8 for $100 was the deal! C63 was on a turntable and really turned the heads of my 30-40 year old friends. 0-60 mph in 3.9!


The new Jaguar HK might be enough with just it's looks on the show floor with 420 hp in the non-R version. The CTS at Cleveland looked mundane and difficult to tell the difference between it and the stodgey STS. I tried to explain the difference to friends... The CTS had it going on on the road with a nice stout chiseled and musclular look. Uterior maybe better to look at but I saw a number of 195+ lbs looked stuff in it and the pass side footwell is almost gone!

No one was around the Lexus IS-F turn table as the lady chattered to no one.

thebigjimsho
02-25-08, 12:09 AM
I think you missed his point. As usual, you tend to jump to attack before thinking.
I believe all he was trying to point out was that most people seem to be settling in on the base price of the V2 when referring to the car's price. Possibly overlooking the probability that the base and loaded prices may be several thousand apart. Notice I said MAY be.
Then YOU post:
So a fully loaded V and a base V will be the same price? If there's 8 grand in options, what revelation did you just bestow upon us?
First of all, I'm totally lost by your first sentence. Doesn't make sense to me. He never said a base and loaded V2 would be the same price. Matter of fact, I think he was stating just the opposite.
Then your second sentence read as very condescending. Again, not atypical for you.Still not getting it? Really, what's so difficult? You don't understand what's written and then you assume what's not. That's a deadly combination...

pietroraimondi
02-25-08, 08:07 AM
Interestingly enough; GM recently released their 2007 sales and production numbers for the Chevrolet Corvette which included the C6 Coupe, C6 Convertible and finally the Z06.

Collectively; a bit more than 70% of all units produced for sale were the 6 speed automatics with paddle shifters.

While the ZR1 with its manual transmission only is truly intended to be a "limited production" vehicle with just 2000 units a year slated for global sales; there is active talk at Chevrolet about introducing the automatic transmission option in the current LS7 based Z06.

Katshot
02-25-08, 09:02 AM
Interestingly enough; GM recently released their 2007 sales and production numbers for the Chevrolet Corvette which included the C6 Coupe, C6 Convertible and finally the Z06.

Collectively; a bit more than 70% of all units produced for sale were the 6 speed automatics with paddle shifters.

While the ZR1 with its manual transmission only is truly intended to be a "limited production" vehicle with just 2000 units a year slated for global sales; there is active talk at Chevrolet about introducing the automatic transmission option in the current LS7 based Z06.

Not surprising. Wasn't it basically the same ratio (manual to auto) for many years, only to have the manual sales take a jump in the last few years? I seem to recall that automatics far outnumbered manual sales for a long time. I think it was only in the last few years that the trend changed slightly. I really always pegged the "Vette as an "image" car more than anything. IMO, the C5 changed that. And I think that's when the manual trans sales started jumping.

Jpjr
02-25-08, 11:57 AM
Not surprising. Wasn't it basically the same ratio (manual to auto) for many years, only to have the manual sales take a jump in the last few years? I seem to recall that automatics far outnumbered manual sales for a long time. I think it was only in the last few years that the trend changed slightly. I really always pegged the "Vette as an "image" car more than anything. IMO, the C5 changed that. And I think that's when the manual trans sales started jumping.

I could be wrong but my guess of what changed it was the original Z06 with only the manual option. At only $55k, it was a very small step up in cash for a large step up in performance and attracted a lot more interest than GM thought. (which is why they bumped to 405 hp from 385 hp but raised the price a lot more than 20 hp would require ;)

The ZR1 is in outer space for your typical Vette buyer, unlike the C5 Z06, which means it will have very little impact on the auto/stick numbers. Even the C6 Z06 at 70k+ is correctly priced high enough to make the car exclusive.

The problem I am seeing is that this simply will not work for the new V. There is simply too much competition at the $70k price point. At that price you have at least a $10-15k band + or - that you can shop. I think at $62k out the door the performance advantage would make sense to a prospective BMW owner (at least don't price it higher than the M3!!), but not at $70k. The motor is great but power to weight is going to keep the car in line despite the horsepower advantage. Then it all comes down to fit and finish and while I can argue that the Caddy now leads, the reputation still lags.

Bottom line: This car will not outsell the old gen V if it is priced significantly higher than $60k.

Katshot
02-25-08, 01:04 PM
Yeah, like it or not, the domestic cars still have to be the "value leader" in their respective markets. Kind of sucks at times but that's the price you pay for dumping crap cars on the market for so many years I guess.

caddycruiser
02-25-08, 10:31 PM
Yeah, like it or not, the domestic cars still have to be the "value leader" in their respective markets. Kind of sucks at times but that's the price you pay for dumping crap cars on the market for so many years I guess.

Very, very true. It's still a big factor in even getting people to remotely consider some things...has to be a noticeable value aspect, at first, to get the bat of an eye. All due to the many, many years of crap.

Hopefully the CTS-V can sell on its merits, and do so strongly with a price that doesn't turn all but the biggest enthusiasts off.

Unlike, that is, the STS-V and XLR-V which are priced so high...the worthiness just doesn't click with people. If they'd do any better made by a German marque, etc. is up for debate, but they very well might.

I'll take on. Well, that is, if I hit a lotto of some kind in the next year;)

Rich H
02-26-08, 01:55 AM
The ZR1 is in outer space for your typical Vette buyer, unlike the C5 Z06, which means it will have very little impact on the auto/stick numbers. Even the C6 Z06 at 70k+ is correctly priced high enough to make the car exclusive.


Speaking of outer space - MT says in the March 08 issue that a prospective ZR1 buyer may be required to have some form of competition driving experience under their belt or require driving school attendence before purchase. And I doubt you can blame that strictly on the manual tranny.
:bighead:

wildwhl
02-26-08, 05:13 AM
Is modability a word?

Not sure, but moody sure is. Case in point - your sig. I'm pretty f'in sure I called the replacement car, did I not? Tuned it yet? Also all the whining and bichin' going on around here - crap - this is worse than the freakin' flower car joint.

Thread jackoff :D

At $70K I'm out - way too much competition with dealers that give a shiat (in my neck of the woods, at least) at that level.

But we'll see - '10 and AWD are a ways out yet (and I still have 24 months left on the ElSux aka not one single problem with the car yet temp car).

WW :burn: out

NormV
02-26-08, 10:25 AM
Not sure, but moody sure is...

WW hits one out of the park. Some of us hit new road in life when we realize it is not paved as nice as we thought it was. :)

Norm

thebigjimsho
02-26-08, 11:52 AM
Not sure, but moody sure is. Case in point - your sig. I'm pretty f'in sure I called the replacement car, did I not? Tuned it yet? Also all the whining and bichin' going on around here - crap - this is worse than the freakin' flower car joint.

Thread jackoff :D

At $70K I'm out - way too much competition with dealers that give a shiat (in my neck of the woods, at least) at that level.

But we'll see - '10 and AWD are a ways out yet (and I still have 24 months left on the ElSux aka not one single problem with the car yet temp car).

WW :burn: outAre you kidding? You are the king of moody. Your to get out or not threads were epic. Whatever balls you had have faded to Bolivian driving the Water Lily and the ElSux.

Good to see you again, WW.

urbanski
02-26-08, 12:37 PM
elsux?

Cadillac Tony
02-26-08, 12:49 PM
A quick check of some random message boards shows the response to the new CTS-V is incredible. Sure there's one or two "American cars suck" comments from the die-hard import drivers, but the majority of people are all blown away by the car. A few examples:

AutoBlog (http://www.autoblog.com/2008/01/08/detroit-2008-2009-cadillac-cts-v-revealed-with-550-hp/)

Motor Trend Forums (http://forums.motortrend.com/70/6517079/the-general-forum/i-give-you-the-550-bhp-ctsv/index.html)

MB World Forums (http://www.mbworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=225592#post2592240)

As I've said before, I'm a combination of amazed and saddened that the most negativity I've seen anywhere on the 'net toward the new CTS-V is here on the Cadillac Owners Forum. That says something, I just don't know what.

StealthV
02-26-08, 01:34 PM
Like WW, I'm waiting for the first year bugs to be worked out along with the 2-door and AWD. If GM doesn't built it, I'll just upgrade to an AWD 7-Series in a few years.

P.S. The Bimmer already has new wheels @ two days old. Mod hell continues... :D

NormV
02-26-08, 01:45 PM
I agree there is promise for the general. I guess allot depends on what were driving now. Most of us are in V's now and are content. For the price increase some will say that the losses in the end of getting a V2 or changing cars unless they are leased is just not justifiable for the gains.

Norm



A quick check of some random message boards shows the response to the new CTS-V is incredible. Sure there's one or two "American cars suck" comments from the die-hard import drivers, but the majority of people are all blown away by the car. A few examples:

AutoBlog (http://www.autoblog.com/2008/01/08/detroit-2008-2009-cadillac-cts-v-revealed-with-550-hp/)

Motor Trend Forums (http://forums.motortrend.com/70/6517079/the-general-forum/i-give-you-the-550-bhp-ctsv/index.html)

MB World Forums (http://www.mbworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=225592#post2592240)

As I've said before, I'm a combination of amazed and saddened that the most negativity I've seen anywhere on the 'net toward the new CTS-V is here on the Cadillac Owners Forum. That says something, I just don't know what.

dqw1
02-26-08, 04:50 PM
This is bad. I had a dream a couple of nights ago that my brother and I drove to Florida (Tony's) to pick my car, then I woke up realized I have to wait another year.

Cadillac Tony
02-26-08, 05:11 PM
That's bad? Unless you're talking about seeing me, then I sympathize.

:lol:

NormV
02-26-08, 07:43 PM
Your forgeting europe, middle east, and Asia. No V1's were sold there.

Close to half the V2's will be sold outside of the US. UAE is going to eat them up!

Norm


... There is simply too much competition at the $70k price point. At that price you have at least a $10-15k band + or - that you can shop. I think at $62k out the door the performance advantage would make sense to a prospective BMW owner (at least don't price it higher than the M3!!), but not at $70k. The motor is great but power to weight is going to keep the car in line despite the horsepower advantage. Then it all comes down to fit and finish and while I can argue that the Caddy now leads, the reputation still lags.

Bottom line: This car will not outsell the old gen V if it is priced significantly higher than $60k.

Jpjr
02-26-08, 07:46 PM
I personally love the new car, think they have one-upped the 1st gen in every way possible except weight. Not often does a new model advance this much so fast.

All that said, the price needs to still offer value. Economics drive the purchase decision as much as anything.

xshrpshtr
03-08-08, 08:08 PM
As soon as things turn around. I WILL be contacting you Tony for some info on the new V. You seem to clearly be the most reputable/trustworthy salesman in the forum.

Katshot
03-08-08, 09:14 PM
As soon as things turn around. I WILL be contacting you Tony for some info on the new V. You seem to clearly be the most reputable/trustworthy salesman in the forum.

What, are you his brother or something?

thebigjimsho
03-09-08, 01:47 AM
What, are you his brother or something?Nope, he's just a wise soul who knows honesty and integrity when he sees it.

rand49er
03-09-08, 02:37 PM
Nope, he's just a wise soul who knows honesty and integrity when he sees it.:yeah:

urbanski
03-09-08, 03:33 PM
What, are you his brother or something?

i see you didnt forget your douche vitamin today

xshrpshtr
03-09-08, 05:39 PM
Brother? I have to admit that did make me laugh...like almost everything you say.
What, are you his brother or something?

atdeneve
03-09-08, 06:01 PM
Haha. Douche vitamin. Wash it down with some a dat good old douche water. Eewww.

thebigjimsho
03-10-08, 10:03 AM
This thread is a riot...

Cadillac Tony
03-10-08, 10:05 AM
Shrpshtr, Randy and Jim- I appreciate the support. By spending a lot of time answering tech questions in the various sub-forums I try and do more for the site than just post ads and promote myself, and it's nice to see that some people appreciate that. :thumbsup:

urbanski
03-10-08, 10:45 AM
some do, some dont but we dont like them

CTSV_Rob
03-10-08, 11:35 AM
Shrpshtr, Randy and Jim- I appreciate the support. By spending a lot of time answering tech questions in the various sub-forums I try and do more for the site than just post ads and promote myself, and it's nice to see that some people appreciate that. :thumbsup:
Keep the faith Tony, I'm sure you have a lot of support on this forum.

Always gald to see quality Vendors such as yourself on the forum. :thumbsup:

xshrpshtr
03-11-08, 12:57 AM
Your knowledge of piston technology and theory was pretty surprising to me. Knowing about piston skirt form and function is pretty damn impressive for a simple 'salesman". especially a balding one at that...LOL

CTSV_Rob
03-11-08, 01:03 AM
One hell of a complement and an insult in the same thread, your are da man X!

ylwjacket
03-11-08, 12:27 PM
All of the negative talk is background noise, and mostly comes from folks who don't intend to buy the car anyways. Probably, if there was a thread that said "call my number, and I'll give you 5 lbs. of free gold", you'd get people complaining that they'd rather have 5 lbs. of free silver.

All of the "BMW drivers wouldn't consider this car w/o it being hugely less expensive" talk cracks me up a bit also. As one of the BMW-driving group (drove them for 15 years before buying the current V), I find it interesting how people are so willing to generalize. I was going to buy an M5 or an M6 in January, but decided to wait until the Detroit Auto Show to see what the new V looked like. It was interesting enough that I'll wait until they come out, and I will probably buy one.

I could buy the M6 cab if I wanted (my wife's choice - she wants me to get that car badly). But, I just like the V, or what I have seen of it so far, better.

I think part of it is this - it would be the "easy" choice, if that makes sense, to run buy a German car, like all of my neighbors have done. I like to be a little different (like when I jacked my car up to send Stealth my ECU, and I left it on jackstands for a few days in the driveway - had the homeowner's association all atwitter - it was great fun). Price isn't really the issue - maybe being a non-conformist is more it.

And, along the path of non-conformity, you just so happen to put your butt in the driver's seat of what I think is going to turn out to be one of the best performance sedans in the world.

Katshot
03-11-08, 02:03 PM
I don't think price is going to be an issue now that I've seen what the '08 M3 is going for. $72K fully loaded should give the V2 plenty of breathing room considering that I understand there won't be a whole lot of options to drive up the price. My guess is the "fully-loaded" price of the V2 will end up being right around that of the M3.
As far as the M6, I can't imagine anyone who really wants an M6 Cab would be interested in any Cadillac, let alone a CTS-V sedan. Maybe a XLR-V.....

NormV
03-11-08, 02:40 PM
I could buy the M6 cab if I wanted...

Do you do hair? :)


Norm

xshrpshtr
03-11-08, 03:16 PM
Wanting the V is a MAN thing. It is a manly car. Versus the queer bmw. If you didn't have your balls tucked so far back and get the makeup out of your eyes you might be able to see that.
Do you do hair? :)


Norm

Katshot
03-11-08, 03:24 PM
Wanting the V is a MAN thing. It is a manly car. Versus the queer bmw. If you didn't have your balls tucked so far back and get the makeup out of your eyes you might be able to see that.

That was intelligent.:bigroll:

trukk
03-11-08, 04:03 PM
That was intelligent.:bigroll:


There is not a lot of intelligence at all over here in 09+V.

-Chris

Katshot
03-11-08, 04:38 PM
There is not a lot of intelligence at all over here in 09+V.

-Chris

Can't argue with you there.

trukk
03-11-08, 05:08 PM
Can't argue with you there.

LOL pot meet, Kettle. :thepan::stirpot:

-Chris

Cadillac Tony
03-11-08, 05:28 PM
Could someone maybe start a thread called "Pissing Match" (or maybe something slightly less offensive) where everyone can go to try and prove who's the toughest guy on the Internet instead of doing it in my thread? This is fun and all, but this thread was originally intended as a place I could do a little business and talk to potential clients, you know?

I don't even mind some smack talk, but at least try and keep it on the topic of the '09 CTS-V. If all you're posting is garbage, there's a million other threads you can pollute. Thanks.

rand49er
03-11-08, 06:34 PM
He's trying to jack back his own thread! Or, is that unjack? Maybe rejack?

Maybe he's trying to get everyone to jack off.



:nono:


Okay, so ... uh-h ... Tony, when are the '09 Vs gonna hit the showroom floor, anyway?

trukk
03-11-08, 06:41 PM
Could someone maybe start a thread called "Pissing Match" (or maybe something slightly less offensive) where everyone can go to try and prove who's the toughest guy on the Internet instead of doing it in my thread? This is fun and all, but this thread was originally intended as a place I could do a little business and talk to potential clients, you know?

I don't even mind some smack talk, but at least try and keep it on the topic of the '09 CTS-V. If all you're posting is garbage, there's a million other threads you can pollute. Thanks.


LOL, If I get a V2, I'm getting it from you Tony :D

Sorry for munging your thread. Why not ask Urby to delete all the crap out of it.

-Chris

RightTurn
03-11-08, 09:25 PM
And now, Tracy Chapman.

XPcjjOrKmJw


:alchi:

urbanski
03-11-08, 09:39 PM
i'll fix it tomorrow.

rand49er
03-11-08, 09:51 PM
i'll fix it tomorrow.That'll take a whole day!

Cadillac Tony
03-12-08, 10:15 AM
It's okay Urbanski, you don't need to delete anything out of this thread- there's some good stuff in here. It's not totally Munsoned yet, I just want to make sure it doesn't go down that road.

You guys can feel free to debate anything regarding the new CTS-V here in this thread, as long as it has to do with the CTS-V and not who's the bigger Internet tough guy. :)

Cadillac Tony
03-12-08, 10:16 AM
He's trying to jack back his own thread! Or, is that unjack? Maybe rejack?

Maybe he's trying to get everyone to jack off.

:nono:




:lol:

rand49er
03-12-08, 11:59 AM
Seriously, though Tony, I know you've got Lutz' ear so you must have an inkling as to when production will begin and when you'll have article one ... ?

Cadillac Tony
03-12-08, 02:18 PM
Product and Process evaluation vehicles are already being built at LGR, which can only be construed as a sign that they're moving closer to being ready for final production- the whole purpose of building them is to evaluate what the "finished product" looks like, from driveability to panel gaps and such. Spy shots of non-camo'd CTS-Vs on the road should start hitting the 'net within a week or two.

I wouldn't be surprised if the people saying they won't be on lots until next year are incorrect.

Cadillac Tony
03-13-08, 04:48 PM
It's not officially announced yet, but another source has indicated start of production to be September, which means they won't start hitting showrooms until late October early November.

CTSV_Rob
03-13-08, 06:07 PM
Do you think they will have a Pre Production 09 V down at the Dr Design event?

Dr Chill
03-13-08, 08:29 PM
It's not officially announced yet, but another source has indicated start of production to be September, which means they won't start hitting showrooms until late October early November.
That would suck since my lease is up in early August. I'll have to drive my Vette every day for 3 months. Wait a minute, that's not too bad, I guess. :megan:

Katshot
03-14-08, 08:41 AM
Do you think they will have a Pre Production 09 V down at the Dr Design event?

That's all he COULD have by June.

CTSV_Rob
03-14-08, 11:22 PM
I realize it won't be the production V.

My question was The pre production V or nothing.

Katshot
03-18-08, 09:05 AM
I realize it won't be the production V.

My question was The pre production V or nothing.

Do you have any reason to doubt the guy's word? He said he'll have one there.

CTSV_Rob
03-18-08, 01:08 PM
I am on a on-line forum and have found it best to verify information. Tony has been very helpful in the past and quite knowledgeable so I figured it would be a good idea to ask him.

Do you trust EVERYTHING you read on-line?

Besides, this is none of your business so why are you bothering with posting this?

Katshot
03-18-08, 01:25 PM
I guess my thought would be that he's been a member longer than Tony, and if he was the kind of guy that lied about things, Sal would've booted him or he would've been discredited by the membership by now. So, I guess I'd tend to give him the benefit of the doubt and believe his advertisements to be honest and as accurate as possible. What I don't get is why you seem to feel that Tony has any direct line on this stuff.

thebigjimsho
03-18-08, 02:12 PM
I guess my thought would be that he's been a member longer than Tony, and if he was the kind of guy that lied about things, Sal would've booted him or he would've been discredited by the membership by now. So, I guess I'd tend to give him the benefit of the doubt and believe his advertisements to be honest and as accurate as possible. What I don't get is why you seem to feel that Tony has any direct line on this stuff.I've seen Tony at work. He may not have an insider deep at GM, but he's got connections in a lot of places, in both production and technical...

Katshot
03-18-08, 03:21 PM
I've seen Tony at work. He may not have an insider deep at GM, but he's got connections in a lot of places, in both production and technical...

I guess I haven't "seen him at work". Until then, I'll believe him to be, as he states, the internet sales manager for a Cadillac dealership in Florida. As such, he "should" have at least some credible contacts at Cadillac (as any other dealer would). My point was that Dr. Design could have as good, or better contacts as a GM vehicle modifier, so I wasn't understanding why he shouldn't be believed when he makes a statement here. Can you see that questioning him without cause could be construed as insulting? That's all I was trying to point out.
Plus, I'd have to assume that he has at least SOME degree of pull at Cadillac since he's managed to host the '09 CTS-V as early as June of this year. Could be me, but as far as I know, he's the ONLY vendor here able to offer such a thing, and for his trouble, he's not afforded much respect.
Just seems to be getting the short end of the stick from the membership lately for no good reason IMO.

Cadillac Tony
03-18-08, 07:16 PM
I don't think anyone was suggesting D3 couldn't make good on their promises- it's a legitimate question when the car won't be in production yet, and he's entitled to ask it. To answer the question Rob, they'll probably have a P&P vehicle there, not a saleable unit.


What I don't get is why you seem to feel that Tony has any direct line on this stuff.

Because I do. :)

RightTurn
03-18-08, 07:25 PM
..he's managed to host the '09 CTS-V as early as June of this year. Could be me, but as far as I know, he's the ONLY vendor here able to offer such a thing...

:umno: Actually, Lindsay has just announced the '09 will be at their Summit track event May 9th. :woohoo:

Katshot
03-18-08, 08:15 PM
I don't think anyone was suggesting D3 couldn't make good on their promises- it's a legitimate question when the car won't be in production yet, and he's entitled to ask it. To answer the question Rob, they'll probably have a P&P vehicle there, not a saleable unit.

Duh, ya think? What else would they have by June?



Because I do. :)

I'll believe it when I see it. 'til then you're a dealership salesman, nothing more.

CTSV_Rob
03-18-08, 08:29 PM
Practice what you preach.

Cadillac Tony
03-18-08, 08:30 PM
you're a dealership salesman, nothing more.

That's a delightful attitude to take towards someone who does more for the Cadillac Owners community in one day than you've done in your entire time here. You really know how to encourage people to continue to share information and help the community.

Please don't bother addressing any more posts toward me, as I won't be able to see them with you on my ignore list. I'll also ask (for the second time) that you keep the off topic conversation in a different thread and out of this one.

HITMONEY
03-18-08, 08:48 PM
I'll believe it when I see it. 'til then you're a dealership salesman, nothing more.


Nice... real nice.

What a class act you are.

:nono:


:rtfinger:

Rolex
03-18-08, 08:51 PM
That's a delightful attitude to take towards someone who does more for the Cadillac Owners community in one day than you've done in your entire time here. You really know how to encourage people to continue to share information and help the community.

Please don't bother addressing any more posts toward me, as I won't be able to see them with you on my ignore list. I'll also ask (for the second time) that you keep the off topic conversation in a different thread and out of this one.

Just put the guy on your ignore list and your problem is solved. If I didn't have to read his posts as a mod I'd probably have him on mine. ;)

RightTurn
03-18-08, 08:53 PM
I'll believe it when I see it. 'til then you're a dealership salesman, nothing more.

Well, wasn't that harsh and uncalled for? :annoyed:

RightTurn
03-18-08, 08:55 PM
Please don't bother addressing any more posts toward me, as I won't be able to see them with you on my ignore list.


Just put the guy on your ignore list and your problem is solved. If I didn't have to read his posts as a mod I'd probably have him on mine. ;)

:lol:

Heli411
03-18-08, 09:11 PM
Back on topic for a sec... does anyone think besides me that the 09 CTS-V is going to see "Sticker Bumps"? $5K , $10K

Cadillac Tony
03-18-08, 09:16 PM
Probably in a lot of areas, and it really comes down to supply and demand. If the demand is there and the magazines rave about the car, you can count on it. Some Dealers (such as myself) feel that MSRP is fair if the car is in high demand, but a lot of places will take the opportunity to rake someone over the coals for an extra $10k.

Sad but true.

thebigjimsho
03-19-08, 12:37 AM
Hmmm, I was wondering why there was so many responses since I last signed on. I see Katshot is acting like a putz...again.

Mitch W
04-12-08, 05:35 PM
I recently sold my C5 Corvette convertible, and am floundering between a Z06 Vette and the 09 CTS-V. They have JUST released to order specs for the 09 Z06, and there are minimal changes, and no horsepower bumps. Thus. the CTS-V should out-horsepower a Z06 Vette. Have the order specs for the CTS-V also been released? BTW...2008 Z06's are selling right around invoice at this point!

Thanks

WheelExecutives
04-12-08, 05:36 PM
what are lease rates looking like on these? any ideas?

StealthV
04-12-08, 07:29 PM
I recently sold my C5 Corvette convertible, and am floundering between a Z06 Vette and the 09 CTS-V. .......Thus. the CTS-V should out-horsepower a Z06 Vette.

If you need a back seat, get a V. With the caveat it is carrying a thousand extra pounds compared to a Z06 which is a huge difference when it comes to all aspects of performance.

concorso
04-12-08, 10:00 PM
If you need a back seat, get a V. With the caveat it is carrying a thousand extra pounds compared to a Z06 which is a huge difference when it comes to all aspects of performance. Just to further this line of thought...if you only need small rear seats, then you could also hold out for the Coupe V.

Tony...any word on the Coupe showing up as a V?

StealthV
04-12-08, 11:12 PM
John Heinrichy said if GM gave the coupe the green light they'd pretty much have to kill him to keep him from turning it into a V.

The coupe is a go; fill in the blank.

Jpjr
04-13-08, 07:18 AM
I now have a second dealer (the one who sold me my first gen V) who has offerred me MSRP for the new one. I've decided I am going to wait for my employee discount; I really don't think GM can expect significant sales increases given the large price increase, $4 gas, and a recession. Auto sales are way off target this year already. Suck for my stock, but market is market.

Davidstan
04-21-08, 07:33 PM
I now have a second dealer (the one who sold me my first gen V) who has offerred me MSRP for the new one. I've decided I am going to wait for my employee discount; I really don't think GM can expect significant sales increases given the large price increase, $4 gas, and a recession. Auto sales are way off target this year already. Suck for my stock, but market is market.
Great assessment. The dreamers far outnumber the real buyers and if gas is indeed $4 and the DOW down to 12,000 or so this fall it will be a tough sell w/ a 3000 guzzler tax.

V-Love
04-23-08, 12:08 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if the people saying they won't be on lots until next year are incorrect.

Late Feb. to early March is my guess.

gophaster
04-24-08, 10:47 AM
Hi Tony,

How does the whole deposit thing work? Since we still don't know the details we have to make the deposit right now based on a speculated base price. Is the deposit refundable if say for example the base price is more than we anticipated or the options don't work out exactly how we thought? Also, does the $599 discount apply to leases as well?

Thanks

ylwjacket
04-24-08, 11:06 AM
Late Feb. to early March is my guess.

If it will be that long, I may have to move on. I was due for a new car last summer, and decided ot wait until I heard the specs on the V. Once I heard them, I put in a deposit and secured the number one spot on the list at my dealer.

However, I am not sure I can wait another year. I need another car this calendar year.

I may have to go back to looking.

Cadillac Tony
04-24-08, 11:56 AM
The new CTS-V should be on Dealer's lots before the end of the year.

gophaster: Yes, the deposit is refundable if the MSRP is crazy or you don't like the options. Once we order the car for you, the deposit is permanent. The $599 discount also applies on leases. I anticipate at least a few months of ridiculous Dealer markups (if Ford dealers can get it on the KR Mustang, I don't think Cadillac dealers will have a problem), so this is a great opportunity to be one of the first to have one AND not pay an inflated price for it.

gophaster
04-24-08, 12:04 PM
Thanks for the reply Tony. This car will be pushing my budget to the limit (but I really want one) so, I was wondering if you had a ballpark idea of what we can expect the residual to be (10k per year) and where the interest rate will be for "well qualified buyers" :) Again just looking for some ballpark figures so I can crunch some numbers.

Thanks again!

Cadillac Tony
04-24-08, 01:06 PM
Any ballpark numbers I give you would be doing you disservice, since it would nothing more than a wild guess. I doubt even GM knows how they're structuring the residuals at this point.

gophaster
04-24-08, 01:21 PM
Gotcha, makes sense. Thanks again.

If I was to place a deposit today when could I expect to actually pick up the car?

Cadillac Tony
05-06-08, 12:59 PM
Cars will be on Dealer lots before the end of the year, probably in November.

RightTurn
05-06-08, 05:37 PM
Just in time for Christmas. :xlol:

Cadillac Tony
07-10-08, 02:23 PM
Just a reminder for our valued Forum Members that we are still accepting Pre-orders on the 2009 CTS-V.

One Member has already reserved his with me, so the next person will get the #2 car we receive- no getting bumped off the list for "preferred" clients or local folks (which some Dealers will do)- your deposit guarantees your spot in line, with the car ordered to your specifications. Pricing for forum members is still $599.99 below MSRP, plus our admin fee and your local taxes and fees. No firm production or arrival dates have been confirmed, but the cars are still on schedule to be available Q4 2008. I have an email in with the LGR plant to try and get a firmer date.

If you'd like to purchase your CTS-V from a fellow V owner and enthusiast, 10 year Cadillac veteran who will not mysteriously change the price AND will be able to give you a full demonstration of the features on your new car, give me a call or email.

Thanks for looking. :thumbsup:

RightTurn
07-10-08, 03:54 PM
:nik:

the cadillac kid
07-10-08, 03:56 PM
Just a reminder for our valued Forum Members that we are still accepting Pre-orders on the 2009 CTS-V.

One Member has already reserved his with me, so the next person will get the #2 car we receive- no getting bumped off the list for "preferred" clients or local folks (which some Dealers will do)- your deposit guarantees your spot in line, with the car ordered to your specifications. Pricing for forum members is still $599.99 below MSRP, plus our admin fee and your local taxes and fees. No firm production or arrival dates have been confirmed, but the cars are still on schedule to be available Q4 2008. I have an email in with the LGR plant to try and get a firmer date.

If you'd like to purchase your CTS-V from a fellow V owner and enthusiast, 10 year Cadillac veteran who will not mysteriously change the price AND will be able to give you a full demonstration of the features on your new car, give me a call or email.

Thanks for looking. :thumbsup:

golly god!
C.T. i have a family friend who has driven nothing but cadillac for the past 20 years, i'll make sure to give him your number. i'm sure you'll do right by him :thumbsup:

xshrpshtr
07-11-08, 06:11 PM
That car will be so ridiculously cool.

StealthV
07-15-08, 12:48 AM
If you'd like to purchase your CTS-V from a fellow V owner and enthusiast, 10 year Cadillac veteran who will not mysteriously change the price AND will be able to give you a full demonstration of the features on your new car, give me a call or email.

Thanks for looking. :thumbsup:

Are PS2 roasting burnouts and parking lot donuts features? :D :thumbsup:

the cadillac kid
07-15-08, 12:56 AM
just dont let the service writer see :histeric:

Cadillac Tony
07-15-08, 01:27 AM
Are PS2 roasting burnouts and parking lot donuts features? :D :thumbsup:

I like to be thorough. :)

RightTurn
07-15-08, 08:45 AM
:suspense:

the cadillac kid
08-05-08, 01:10 AM
Cadillac Tony,
A buddy of mine just sent me this link;
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=n&car_id=248876447

i forward it to a relative who was in the market for one; for some reason i think he's going to be wanting a V instead :lol: still taking orders?

Cadillac Tony
08-05-08, 11:54 AM
Thanks, and yes I am.

Only one person has actually placed a deposit and guaranteed himself an '09 V. Once these cars hit magazine covers next month at 3.9 0-60, the general public will be clued in to what this car really is, phones will start ringing, and many Dealers will make the decision based on the sudden interest to stick a "market adjustment" increase on their CTS-Vs (just like the Cobras, Challengers, Exiges, etc......).

A reservation with me guarantees MSRP, so give me a call.

SMKR
08-05-08, 11:18 PM
Email sent, please contact me about an 09.

Cadillac Tony
08-07-08, 12:52 PM
Make that Two- one of my longtime customers placed a deposit yesterday to replace his 911 Carrera S with a new CTS-V.

The number three spot is now up for grabs- pricing is MSRP including our Dealer fee (not plus the fee), no market adjustments. Fly in, hit the beach, check out the sights, and drive home in your new CTS-V. :D

LITTLEELVISDAN
08-09-08, 02:11 PM
WHAT ABOUT THE COUPE? No one answered my question if you are taking orders for the Coupe V. 2 less doors should equal 20k less off MSRP right?:thumbsup:

LITTLEELVISDAN
08-09-08, 02:14 PM
I think a coupe V with auto paddle shifters would put the GT-R hype as yesterday's news

LITTLEELVISDAN
08-09-08, 02:21 PM
To add to the auto killing the rep of the CTS-V. I don't see it being a negative. A large nunmber of enthusiest/purists don't know what heel toe shifting is, and if they do, they don't know how, or never really done it successfully on a track. Auto is becoming a purist option. F-1, SMG, is the wave of the furutre and is proving itself everyday on the tracks. Caddy needs to advance their Tranny technology in leaps and bounds.
.
But maybe they need to start with a rear diff that doesn't groan in parkinglots or disintegrate first...

09ctsvman
08-10-08, 08:01 AM
New to forums...Im new to the forums and I very much interested in the 09 CTS-V. I had a few questions about possible lowering just enough to close that wheel gap and any other mods you guys would recommend or have done. Please advise....Im looking to move on this by the end of the year....:want:

09ctsvman
08-10-08, 08:07 AM
Tony, has there been anything on the actual MSRP? I know this may have been posted put Im not seeing it anywhere..Thanks for teh heads up...





The new CTS-V should be on Dealer's lots before the end of the year.

gophaster: Yes, the deposit is refundable if the MSRP is crazy or you don't like the options. Once we order the car for you, the deposit is permanent. The $599 discount also applies on leases. I anticipate at least a few months of ridiculous Dealer markups (if Ford dealers can get it on the KR Mustang, I don't think Cadillac dealers will have a problem), so this is a great opportunity to be one of the first to have one AND not pay an inflated price for it.

RightTurn
08-10-08, 10:46 AM
Tony, has there been anything on the actual MSRP? I know this may have been posted put Im not seeing it anywhere..Thanks for teh heads up...

We are all waiting till that bomb drops. :lol:

:mystery:

urbanski
08-10-08, 10:49 AM
New to forums...Im new to the forums and I very much interested in the 09 CTS-V. I had a few questions about possible lowering just enough to close that wheel gap and any other mods you guys would recommend or have done. Please advise....Im looking to move on this by the end of the year....:want:

new thread please, this is Cadillac Tony's thread about ordering.

csp3000
08-11-08, 11:03 AM
Only one person has actually placed a deposit and guaranteed himself an '09 V.

...... :yup: :cloud9:

mtwabo
08-11-08, 11:40 AM
Tony I was wondering if you knew what a lease might go for? I know its early but I was just curious. Currently I drive an 04 545i and live in Bradenton, I owe 18 on the car,

I would also entertain buying one but if the sticker gets up to 70k that would be out of my price range.

Thanks

Cadillac Tony
08-11-08, 11:52 AM
Leases are such a gray area right now with everything going on in that market- GM, Ford and Toyota are all doing massive restructuring in their Leases after posting huge losses due to resale values, so I honestly have no idea what the situation will be 60 days from now. I can tell you that Dealer retention on an 08 CTS lease just jumped from 6.1% to 8.1%, and I imagine it's going to stay that way. Once they announce MSRP I'll have a better idea, but for now it would be pure guesswork.

Either way, I'd love to help you get into a car. Keep an eye on the forums for the MSRP announcement, and let me know if there's anything I can do. :)

LITTLEELVISDAN
08-11-08, 01:46 PM
Tony. CTS-V coupe orders? GM says they will be coming out at the same time.

Varsity
08-11-08, 02:02 PM
Great assessment. The dreamers far outnumber the real buyers and if gas is indeed $4 and the DOW down to 12,000 or so this fall it will be a tough sell w/ a 3000 guzzler tax.


I have one on order here in the UK where gas is $9 a gallon and the car will cost $90,000.

Theres no price for passion!

Cadillac Tony
08-13-08, 02:34 PM
Tony. CTS-V coupe orders? GM says they will be coming out at the same time.

Sorry Dan- No info on Coupe production yet. :(

LITTLEELVISDAN
08-14-08, 05:17 PM
Sorry Dan- No info on Coupe production yet. :(
Thanks Tony. Can you put me first on the list when you do?

Cadillac Tony
08-14-08, 09:38 PM
No problem. :)

synergy408
08-18-08, 02:02 AM
Make that Two- one of my longtime customers placed a deposit yesterday to replace his 911 Carrera S with a new CTS-V.

...uhhhh trade in my Carrera S for the V???? Are you kidding me??

http://www.synergydesign.com/997/GT3/1.jpg

But I sure may consider upgrading to a V from my 2008 3.6 DI, Tony! :)

Cadillac Tony
08-18-08, 10:09 AM
...uhhhh trade in my Carrera S for the V???? Are you kidding me??

But I sure may consider upgrading to a V from my 2008 3.6 DI, Tony! :)

I guess once you've had a Murcielago, the 911 doesn't seem quite as amazing. :lol:

urbanski
08-18-08, 10:51 AM
how much is that trade in 997S going for eh?

Cadillac Tony
08-18-08, 11:28 AM
Haha.....won't know until his V comes in. No guaranteed trade-in value was agreed on, since it's impossible to look 90 days into the future of book values.

Must be nice to buy a car and not even care what they're giving for your trade, eh?

vperl
08-25-08, 12:53 AM
Not at all- I would argue that 99% of current CTS-V owners are purists. The problem is that purists make up a small percentage of the market, and in order to be successful you need to have broad appeal. I think we would all agree that the Corvette is an amazing sports car and that there are some serious gearheads who own 'Vettes, so why do they offer an automatic 'Vette? Volume. It's simple business sense to make your product appealing to as many people as possible.



Let me preface this answer by saying that this is TOTAL GUESSWORK on my part- GM has told me nothing about pricing, but I have come to this conclusion based on experience, logic and reading between the lines of what I was told at NAIAS.

I suspect a base MSRP of roughly $59,000, with several available options.

-Premium paint $995
-Polished Wheels $1,000
-Automatic $1,400
-Sunroof $1,000
-Performance package (Recaros, microfiber wheel, PTM and tuned shocks) $5,000

That pricing structure would make sense to me, and would put a fully loaded one in the $68-$69k range.

Please don't run and post this on 800 different forums, because this is not official, or even a rumor. It's my educated guess, and I could be totally wrong.
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&


Tony, if you are correct, then I will give my local dealer a shot first, in the first quarter of '09 maybe a tad latter.....


What exterior colors are they going to have? Sounds silly, but I am tired of silver, white, and black....

Cadillac Tony
08-25-08, 10:36 AM
OFFICIAL SPECS, DIMENSIONS AND CAPACITIES

Check out Reed's excellent site at http://www.cadillacfaq.com/gi/09v.html, and drop him a donation while you're there to keep this invaluable resource up and running.

2009 CTS-V COLOR CHOICES

Exterior

-(17U) Radiant Silver
-(30U) Thunder Gray Chromaflair*
-(41U) Black Raven
-(58U) Black Ice* (not available at SOP)
-(89U) Crystal Red Tintcoat*
-(96U) Blue Diamond TriCoat*
-(98U) White Diamond TriCoat*

*Denotes an additional charge

Interior

-(195) Ebony with Ebony Accents (dash pad, upper door panels)
-(845) Light Titanium with Ebony Accents
-(315) Ebony/Light Cashmere Two Tone (Ebony seat edges with Cashmere inserts- Not available when equipped with Optional Recaro seats)

2009 CTS-V Packages and options (Prices TBA)

-(UAV): Audio system with Navigation
-(W2E): Recaro Heated/Ventilated Performance Seats
-(C3U): Ultraview Power Sunroof
-(P80): 19x9" front, 19x9.5" rear Polished Aluminum Wheels
-(K05): Engine Block Heater
-(MX0): Six Speed Automatic Transmission

-(RJE): CTS-V Performance Collection. Includes:
-(UAV): Audio system with Navigation
-(W2E): Recaro Heated/Ventilated Performance Seats
-(P80): 19x9" front, 19x9.5" rear Polished Aluminum Wheels
-(N45) Sueded Steering Wheel and (KAE) Sueded Shift Knob. (N45) and (KAE) only available in this collection.


Production is scheduled to begin in October, with cars arriving in Dealers Q4 2008 (November at the earliest).

fast_with_class
09-12-08, 02:42 AM
Tony,

Drop me PM so we can set up a deposit. Thanks.