My car is sagging to the left in the front; the springs are no good anymore, and the shocks are old. I am thinking of replacing springs, shocks, and all bushings while the front end is off the car. My shop is quoting me 14 hours for the complete front end job, does this sound realistic?? Anything else I need to consider replacing while the care is half disassembled?

I'm not exactly in the same boat (haha) here but am having front end problems. Just seems like I've got a little play in the wheel, 1/4 turn back and forth doesn't change the path. And every once in awhile I bob into the other lane. Like driving a 70s class A motorhome.

Had tires put on a few weeks ago and they wouldn't align up the front end because I "need" work. Was told, I needed, pitman arm, idler arm, and damper. Passed on all that to look at things myself first, though I wouldn't know I what I was looking at really. I looked under there and all "seemed" tight except for some play in the front left outer tie rod. Likely, all I need. You know, those tire guys garnering work after the "holidays".

So, that's where I'm at. So any front end help, info, tips, tricks, cheats, would be helpful.

All I know, is for the price of a center link, outer and inner tie rods, pitman and idler arms, I could buy all the parts, special front-end tools, and throw a pretty BIG super bowl party.

Now, I don't want to do all that, and hopefully I can get away with replacing just the outer tie rod. Just not sure, is all. I've got the GM service manual, and plan on reading up on this stuff.

Although 14 hours sound like a lot of time, I would think it is a fair assumption. I just recently redid the front end on the passengers side of my 78 coupe and it probably took close to 14 hours for one side. Although it was my first time engaging in front end work. Let me describe what has to be done.

Place car on Jackstands in Front or put up on lift (This may take too long to have on lift)
Remove Wheels and Tires
Remove Brake Calipers and Tie off to Side
Remove Bearing Cap and then remove hub and bearings.
Disconnect sway bar links from lower control arm, these are notorious for creating a big oval hole in the A-arm due to bushings being shot.
Disconnect tie rod end from Steering Knuckle
Disconnect Shock from lower and upper arm
Install Spring Compressor in Spring and Compress 3-5 inches, (Use compressor that fits inside the spring.)
Place Jack under lower control arm and jack up until jack meets lower arm, (This part is a royal pain in the ass, make sure from the beginning that the car is jacked up enough)
Then disconnect upper and lower arm, there is one bolt holding each in, (One swing of a sledge hammer and a pitch fork will break all of these loose, they tend to be very loose when old)
After completing the last three steps, slowly lower the jack while supporting the spring with something to prevent it from flying out of its cradle, (i.e. Chain, long pry bar, etc.) Eventually The lower control arm should be low enough that the spring may be pryed out of its cradle without much tension.
Once spring is removed you need to remove lower and upper a-arms from the car. To remove the upper, you need big offset box wrenches to fit inbetween the exhaust manifold and the frame where the arm bolts to the frame. Break loose the two bolts on the arm
One the bolts are loose you need to remove the shims
There are shims inbetween the upper arm and your frame that give you your caster and camber adjustments. Remove shims from one side at a time and label them accordingly (Front Left, Rear Left, etc.)
Then remove remainder of nuts from bolts
Then you need to gets lots of penetrating oil inbetween the bolts and the frame. The arm will move now but will not come out unless these bolts are knocked out of their holes. the bolts have keyways in them that lock them into place in the frame, you cannot turn the bolt from the frame side of the car. You need to get a large prybar and gingerly pry against the bolt, (You will be prying against the exhaust manifold, so use discretion with the amount of pressure you use.) The key is steady pressure with occaasional jolts and eventually the bolts will pop out. Then remove upper arm.
The lower arm has a bolt on each side of it, remove bolts with an impact wrench if you can fit one in there, it is kind of tight. And knock out bolts and then knock out the arm.

The bushings are a pain in the ass to remove from the lower arm, special care needs to be taken to not distort the arm while removing the bushings. The upper arm is easier to do bushings on, they will usually pop out with the help of a impact chisel.

While you have all of this apart you might as well do upper and lower ball joints, sway bar links and bushings, as well as the a-arm bushings.

So the end result is if you are capable of doing this job, it will be grueling, dirty and irritated but will save you a lot of money. It should cost you around $350 for all of the parts. If the shop that quoted you does reputable work and you do not want to tackle this, then have it done by the shop. Their quote seems fair given the amount of work involved. Just make sure that all of their work quoted is performed. There will be a world of differences in the ride with new suspension components.

Best of luck,
Mike

One more piece of advice: if you are going to pay the shop to do it, buy the parts yourself and bring them in. This will save you a LOT of money. Ask the shop permission first, though (some shops won't touch a job with walk-in parts).

Guys, thanks a lot for the detailed advice. I can (and will) bring in my own parts, that way I can make sure they have the right parts. After reading casciomichael's detailed description, I am definitely letting the shop tackle this, I don't think I have the right tools for this job. I relly appreciate the insight, allows me to ensure they get this done right. One last question: was there a rubber coil spring insulator? If so, is there on on top and bottom or only one end? Thanks,
Richard

You can also pickup some used arms and rebuild them and do a swap and sell off the old arms. The parts are VERY common... Get the WS6 Trans AM bushings in the arms (9C1/cop car bushing may be the same).

I have a set from a 95 Cop Car which have the HD 5/8" ball joints/spindles. Gotta rebuild them and then do a R&R. I am toying with tossing in some cop car springs too. I know, stiffer, but I would prefer it....

I did remove the rear spring insulator on my 94 when I put in station wagon rear springs. I highly recommend the swap. Simple, and ride was unaffected. And MUCH less reliance on the air compressor (still needs some air, but much less than the stock FE2 springs)

I was doing a thourough inspection of the car to make sure I have all parts, and I cannot figure out why it is sagging 1/2" on the front left. Can it be conclusively said that if the car is sagging on one end that is because the spring is worn? Are there any other casues that could make a car sag? I want to make sure I don't spend $1000, just to find that the car is still sagging?

End links are culprits for that. My dad replaced shocks, springs and sway bars to find out it was the Autozone end link that wasn't the same size as GM's.... But I was able to talk him into 442 pieces to replace them with!!!

Weak shocks are culprits too. I don't care what anyone says, SHOCKS AFFECT RIDE HEIGHT!! You learn by doing..... Should it? No, but reality it does....

The rear can mess up the front too if it is sagging left/right... But it will do it in back too...

Need some help with parts. I'm going to overhaul the steering suspension and am going with new idler arm, inner and outer tie rods, centerlink, damper, and a set of used 9C1 front/rear stabilizer bars. In looking the parts up, I'm getting a choice for armored and non armored tie rod ends. Not sure what that means.

I've looked around from board to board, blogs, and websites on the pros and cons of high-end parts but nobody can see/feel a discernible difference except in marketing and $$$. Moog parts look heavier duty but those who've used them claim no less and no more durability or difference in handling.

That said, I'm going with basic parts but just don't know the difference in armored and non armored tie rod ends. Any clues?

I think the armored is only used with J55 brakes, which is typically pretty odd compared to what we use. Probably fatter tie rod ends. But likely not interchangable. Go find a set at local parts store and see if they are same as std set.

I am looking at NAPA parts, they are bragging they are all the new low friction parts that are supposed to be better quality than the Moog parts. Wish I knew more about..... But the cutaway pictures are intriguing.... I hope to swap all mine here very soon...

Hmmm... that's worth some thought, NODIH.

Auto Zone

Idler Arm 12.99
Tie Rod Inner 10.99
Tie Rod Outer 11.49
Center Link 49.99
Damper 32.99

NAPA

Idler Arm 23.79
Tie Rod Inner 17.99
Tie Rod Outer 19.99
Center Link 62.99
Damper 23.99

Wondering if it's worth the extra $$$$

Go look at NAPA for the pictures of the parts cut up. Interesting...

I have been seeing these "low friction' joints out. The guy at NAPA said that is what they are... supposedly..... I guess..... I always thought Moog was best....

Still typing with grease on my hands - got half the job done today!! Swapped out both front/rear sway bars with 9C1s found from an Impala at my local junk yard. Wow-ee wow wow!!! What a difference. No more float in the boat!!

They looked to be of similar design, however, the the 9C1s outside diameters were larger - significantly larger on the rear set. Not an overly complicated job, just r-e-a-l-l-y dirty. Would have went much quicker with a friend but I was on my own today. So it went slower but it's done.

Next up, steering suspension rebuild, then onto that Transgo kit i've got waiting in the wings. :)

Did you break much taking them out? I did taking my OEM FE2 bars (same as Limo, 9C1, Impala SS FE4, etc) out in the rear. With rear with old design like mine, get the replacement inserts for the rear lower control arms..... and always fresh bolts if yours are questionable...

No broken bolts - thank God. All bolts, lucky enough, looked good but one front bolt where the threading was off. Because they looked the same as my originals, I just used one of my extras. Both donor and my FWB are "Florida Fresh" so everything underneath came off fairly easy - usually does on these types of cars. The donor was a 95 like mine, don't know if that helped things. Probably didn't hurt. The front setup looked the same but the rear was slightly different with bolts going all the way through, and sandwiching flanges between the lower control arm. I just used the bolts off my 95 and one set of flanges on the bottom - that should be enough.

Hello guys. I'm also about to do some stuff to my front end. I;m looking at the sway bar bushings and I don't know what size I have, w/1-1/8, w/1-1/16, w/1-1/4" etc. I have a 96 brougham. Thanks.

P.S. When I did my idler arm, center link, and lower ball joints this summer I went all Moog. Oriely has the cheapest Moog prices!! I'm getting Moog inner and outer tie rods, Oreily upper and lower a-arm bushings, Moog Sway bar link and sway bar bushings all from Oreily. When replacing the wheel bearings should u just do the outer or do both outer and inner? Seals too??

Look at the SPID, look for FE1 or FE2. The SPID is the RPO list in the trunk on the lid...

FE2 has a 1.18" bar (30mm) and the FE1 has a 25mm bar I think....

Best upgrade (used to be low buck, now harder to find) is a 70-81 Trans AM/Z28 1.25" bar and it also has a shorter lever, really makes for a healthy bar!

Look at the SPID, look for FE1 or FE2. The SPID is the RPO list in the trunk on the lid...

FE2 has a 1.18" bar (30mm) and the FE1 has a 25mm bar I think....

Best upgrade (used to be low buck, now harder to find) is a 70-81 Trans AM/Z28 1.25" bar and it also has a shorter lever, really makes for a healthy bar!

I have the FE1. So that's 1-3/16"?

No like 1in, tiny bar... The FE2 bar is much larger... You will feel MAJOR improvement in handling with the FE2 bar.

And even more with the Trans AM bar (hard to find now...).

The HA/HO (Herb Adams or HO Racing) front 1 5/16" bar is the ultimate that you can get new now. The Hotchkiss are ok, but hollow (lighter, but not NEAR as stiff as the HO/HA bars). I have a Rancho 1.25" adjustable bar (very rare even new) that is almost 2x stiffer than the HA/HO bar! I haven't put it on the Cad yet, but thinking about it... This is an incredible bar, but STIFF, stiff enough it ripped the bolts out of my frame on my 80 T/A.... That is stiff boys and girls... Oh but does it handle FANTASTIC!

You have NOT experienced a flat handling car till you have seen this bar in action.... I can jack up the car 9 inches on one front tire and pick up 3 tires (the other front in 4inches or so, and the rear on the side I am jacking....).....

Haven't bought suspension parts yet (i.e inner/outer tie rods, idler arm, center link, and damper).

And in looking at Moog pricing at Oreily, as referred by v90, the steering suspension rebuild would cost just over twice as much $133 vs $300 with standard parts at Autozone vs Moog. The extra dough isn't a problem but I sure would like to know if I'm getting twice the part.

Moog doesn't claim their parts are heavy duty.

In fact, they only tout the name "problem solver" but never actually make any real claims of their parts doing just that or being heavier duty than the competition. So other than clever marketing and higher price point, are you really getting better parts?

Like I said before "I've looked around from board to board, blogs, and websites on the pros and cons of high-end parts but nobody can see/feel a discernible difference except in marketing and $$$. Moog parts look heavier duty but those who've used them claim no less and no more durability or difference in handling."

If anyone can share their experiences other than knowing they paid 2X as much as they could have, good or bad, with Moog, that would be helpful.

No like 1in, tiny bar... The FE2 bar is much larger... You will feel MAJOR improvement in handling with the FE2 bar.

And even more with the Trans AM bar (hard to find now...).

The HA/HO (Herb Adams or HO Racing) front 1 5/16" bar is the ultimate that you can get new now. The Hotchkiss are ok, but hollow (lighter, but not NEAR as stiff as the HO/HA bars). I have a Rancho 1.25" adjustable bar (very rare even new) that is almost 2x stiffer than the HA/HO bar! I haven't put it on the Cad yet, but thinking about it... This is an incredible bar, but STIFF, stiff enough it ripped the bolts out of my frame on my 80 T/A.... That is stiff boys and girls... Oh but does it handle FANTASTIC!

You have NOT experienced a flat handling car till you have seen this bar in action.... I can jack up the car 9 inches on one front tire and pick up 3 tires (the other front in 4inches or so, and the rear on the side I am jacking....).....


The dealer said it was the 26mm sway bar. Can a impalla or 9c1 sway bar from a junk yard work and handle better?

Haven't bought suspension parts yet (i.e inner/outer tie rods, idler arm, center link, and damper).

And in looking at Moog pricing at Oreily, as referred by v90, the steering suspension rebuild would cost just over twice as much $133 vs $300 with standard parts at Autozone vs Moog. The extra dough isn't a problem but I sure would like to know if I'm getting twice the part.

Moog doesn't claim their parts are heavy duty.

In fact, they only tout the name "problem solver" but never actually make any real claims of their parts doing just that or being heavier duty than the competition. So other than clever marketing and higher price point, are you really getting better parts?

Like I said before "I've looked around from board to board, blogs, and websites on the pros and cons of high-end parts but nobody can see/feel a discernible difference except in marketing and $$$. Moog parts look heavier duty but those who've used them claim no less and no more durability or difference in handling."

If anyone can share their experiences other than knowing they paid 2X as much as they could have, good or bad, with Moog, that would be helpful.

I wish I could help more than just knowing I bought the expensive stuff. Many people that I have talked to say that Moog parts are a one time thing, you don't have to worry about them going out for a long time. On Advance Auto.com some Moog parts have Heavy Duty in the description. (partsamerica.com) I matched the part numbers to Oreily's. Like the tie rod ends and sway bar link kits are listed as heavy duty by Advance Auto where Oreily just says "Enhanced Design." I just feel like you get wha u pay for. I did notice that the Oreily brand parts are the same part number as Moog:hmm:.

Yes, Impala SS, 9C1 and Fleetwood Limo and Fleetwood FE2 all have the identical sway bars. PN's and all....




The dealer said it was the 26mm sway bar. Can a impalla or 9c1 sway bar from a junk yard work and handle better?

I am pretty sure the "advanced design" are the new low friction parts. Goto Moog's website and see what they say.

I wish I could help more than just knowing I bought the expensive stuff. Many people that I have talked to say that Moog parts are a one time thing, you don't have to worry about them going out for a long time. On Advance Auto.com some Moog parts have Heavy Duty in the description. (partsamerica.com) I matched the part numbers to Oreily's. Like the tie rod ends and sway bar link kits are listed as heavy duty by Advance Auto where Oreily just says "Enhanced Design." I just feel like you get wha u pay for. I did notice that the Oreily brand parts are the same part number as Moog:hmm:.

I'll look at them side-by-side at the parts counter and go from there. Thanks for all the help! After looking at the steering suspension closely, all I really need is the idler arm and one outer tie rod.

I'm just weary of the whole price = quality equation and can point out, like many of us, cases where it's not exactly true. And I've had a bad run of high-end purchases crapping out on me lately so at this point, I'm like, what's the difference?

Are 9C1 steering components (idler arm, tie rods, etc.) heavy duty or is it all in the bushings?

9C1 and all others, same.... Fleetwood Limo w/J55 is probably only one that I believe has any differences.

guys, I got the car back from the shop. And the car is STILL sagging 1/2" on the drivers side!!! :thehand: I am frustrated as this cost me a lot of money. Could it be the back springs?? Maybe Benzilla can share his secret on getting the front end perfectly level?

So, you got all new springs and shocks too? Hmm, I really can't think what it could be. So the whole drivers side sags evenly from front to back? I guess all that's left to do is drop in new rear springs/shocks.

This sounds dumb, but you keep saying the front sits unevenly, are you sure the bumper isn't misaligned, giving that appearance? Just a thought, but I assume you've measured much more extensively than to let that fumble you.

But other than that, how does it feel after the rebuild? any tighter? front sit any higher? How much did it cost?

Ben.

EDIT: Got your PM right after I posted this.

The good news is that the car feels great after the rebuild. It is much firmer but still comfortable. After looking at the old parts taken out I must say that they rebuild was probbaly not completely necessary as the ball joints were in reasonable shape, but the bushings were worn no doubt after 30 years. The old springs were exactly the same height, that's when I knew that my saggin problem wasn;t going to be solved.

I ended putting in the AC Delco heavty duty shocks (black color) since I could not find the regular ones (I am trying to keep the original black A/C Delco's for preserving the original appearance - and I have already changed the rear schocks with the Delco's).

The apparent sagging on the drivers side is strange. I measured from the floor to the chrome trim on the front wheel well and the distance on both sides is the same :confused:. However, when I measure floor to front bumper on each side it is off 1/2" (and it looks off). As you mentioned, maybe it is the bumber that is on slanted, but I dont think it is that, because the gap between the bumper and the headlights is the same on both sides.

Meanwhile the rear looks level, however, the distance from floor to the crome trim on the whell well differs only 1/4" between both sides. Could it really be the back influcing the fron that much?

I don't want to spend another $1k to find out.

Richard

Did you check end links on the front bar? MEASURE, a little on them goes a long way....

I forget GM's measuring points, but that might show the bumper height too so you would know it is the bumper not the car.

Yes, rear can do that to the whole car...

Mine looks to be leaning some, it is a rear shock blown (leaking oil), just sucky weather to change it...

Thanks for all the help, the steering suspension rebuild is done. With 9C1 front/rear sway bars, idler arm, inner/outer tie rods, and alignment, it handles like new - much tighter. And I can't wait to take it on the highway. Much less sway around corners and minimal pay in the steering wheel!! Nice - everything I wanted.

You should have heard the tires burning up on the way to Firestone.. he heh