I was thinking about this today; this car might have too much horsepower for too little $$. You always hear about guys wrapping Ferraris and Lambos around trees - too much power, too little time behind the wheel. Now, we have access to a supercar for under $70k - my guess is that we'll see a lot more of this. Having this kind of power out of the box, within reach to the masses [relatively speaking], is going to be interesting.

Lots of guys have wrecked their 1st Gen V's with only 400hp. Everyone calls their 04-07's beasts, but those cars are relatively tame compared to the '09's. :cookoo:

That being said, if I get an '09, I will certainly be modding the hell out of it :D

Ill be wrapping mine around a tree

One can never have to much horsepower !

No such thing as too much POWER!!!!!

Just dont let Urby buy one right away! BWHAHAHAAHAHAH!!

I'm sorry, English is my mother tongue. But what is this "too much horsepower" that you speak of?

Point well taken - I also am a HP addict. However, I think there are going to be some rookies that buy this thing and are going to be out of their league :)

I shouldn't have brought this up ;)

Haven't seen much of this with the Z06. Low $ + High Performance = magnified mistakes. Reminds me of what my instructor told me day 1 at VIR.

"OK Chris. Your car is extremely fast. Your car is extremely heavy. Those are two very bad things to have together. We will go 'off' this weekend and when we do, we aren't going to stop for a very long time. So let's make sure that we're very careful with where we decide to go 'off'. OK?"

We did go off. Twice as a matter of fact. Once in the hog pen when I tried in vain to make up time on a GT3. Bad decision. Once again as we explored how late we could brake at the end of the front straight. We found out. Roughly 20 feet less than we thought. :lildevil:

Great fun on a track where you have run-off room and everyone (well most) respects the speed that we're traveling at. On a public street though, potentially deadly and definitely stupid. :cookoo:

There is no such thing as too much horsepower...EVER!!! If people can't drive responsibly, they shouldn't be driving!

SG

Most sold will be autos and the ECU will upshift if you start getting into trouble. With all the driver's aids, the auto version of this car will be a lot easier to handle than the gen I. Picture something just as docile as an STS-V in terms of driveability, but better than CTS-V gen I limits and performance.

State Farm looks forward to collecting my money every month.

was there a point to this thread other than getting people riled up?

this is like going to a prius thread and saying "too much mpg?"

I can't wait to buy one! Of course many people will wreck these cars, just like, well no, even more than the rest of the V8 rear wheel drive Caddies. Can't wait for the first thread complaining about how poor it drives in the snow. No kidding!

If you want to see a market where people really get over their head quickly, try the over 150hp race bike market.

My favorite vehicle to date was my 97 YZF1000 155HP, 20K safe miles. Training and common sense goes a long way with this stuff. Light on the throttle, stay off the rear brake, and look as far down the road as you can. when in doubt, stay on the gas, and look where you want to go. And having an overworked guardian angel helps!

I will be going for driving lessons again....

Have fun, be safe, and keep the really extreme stuff on the track.

CG
2005 STS 1SG 36K
1999 STS 155K gone

was there a point to this thread other than getting people riled up?

this is like going to a prius thread and saying "too much mpg?"


Take it easy there, hotrod. This is a discussion forum. I was discussing an idea. It's nothing like a Prius thread; I can't see a Prius being prone to accidents because of it's fuel efficiency.

I can't wait to buy one! Of course many people will wreck these cars, just like, well no, even more than the rest of the V8 rear wheel drive Caddies. Can't wait for the first thread complaining about how poor it drives in the snow. No kidding!

If you want to see a market where people really get over their head quickly, try the over 150hp race bike market.

My favorite vehicle to date was my 97 YZF1000 155HP, 20K safe miles. Training and common sense goes a long way with this stuff. Light on the throttle, stay off the rear brake, and look as far down the road as you can. when in doubt, stay on the gas, and look where you want to go. And having an overworked guardian angel helps!

I will be going for driving lessons again....

Have fun, be safe, and keep the really extreme stuff on the track.

CG
2005 STS 1SG 36K
1999 STS 155K gone


No question - you're right. Motorcycles are a great analogy to the point I was trying to make. They're relatively cheap, and kids get them with more balls than talent, and end up crashing them very quickly after purchase.

Okay. Now we have heard every possible complaint about the redesigned CTS. :gothicaleigh:

I had thought nothing would top the "no parking sensors on the front of the car" thread, so congratulations.

Okay. Now we have heard every possible complaint about the redesigned CTS. :gothicaleigh:

I had thought nothing would top the "no parking sensors on the front of the car" thread, so congratulations.


Have we covered the ugly ass end on the coupe? Id like to revisit that even if we have.

BTW, I dont think they put front sensors on because most people I know with a drivers license have eyes. Plus why add MORE weight?

First thing that popped into my mind was superbikes.
Look at what is available... 200 horsepower per liter bikes are common nowadays.
You strap 200 horses inside of 400 pounds and put a rider on it, you weed out the guys who can and the ones who can't.
That will always be the case. My motto is don't punish those who can do it because of the retards who think they can and then end up "wrapped around a tree".
One of my favorite quotes is "A man has got to know his limitations".

I know my bike will do a lot more than I can do with it, but I know when to stop acting like a moron and ride like I got some grey matter in my skull.
Hopefully any supercar purchasers can figure that out..... the ones that can't?
I call that "natural selection".

I believe a car can have too much horsepower and you can have traction issues, which defeats the purpose. What good is all that horsepower if you spin the wheels. Must feather the pedal until the higher speeds arrive.

I think that it may be "too much car" for some to handle, no doubt. Most of the wrecks, I read about are young kids with fast cars. They don't know that their driving limit is beneath the car's limits.

It's not that there's too much horsepower it's "usable horsepower" that counts. Most people try and harness as much as they can but rarely "use it" like it should be used.

I have heard plenty of guys track side with sick machines talk about 1000hp/987trq but got schooled by everyone.

I had a lot of trouble and lost times due to 3rd and 4th spinning like a top with sticky tires - no good.

The M3/conversion is in my garage with the following on its way.

CF Hood GTR - MA SHAW
CF wide body fenders - Pennon Composites
APR - Wing

That's it for now....:bomb:

Can someone ban this threadstarter for such blasphemy?

No worries; I'll ban myself. My point was obviously not undersood by most. There is a good chance I'll be getting an '09 because of the HP, and if I do, I will modify it, as well - lilke I've done with every car I've owned.

I understand what you were trying to say. And while the new V will certainly be a good value given the competition, I think it's price point is still such that we won't see a lot of inexperienced drivers in them. I see way more morons wrecking modded mustangs, etc.

Take it easy there, hotrod. This is a discussion forum. I was discussing an idea. It's nothing like a Prius thread; I can't see a Prius being prone to accidents because of it's fuel efficiency.

Nothing personal, but thread count clearly had something to do with this.

-Hotrod:lildevil:

Ill be wrapping mine around a tree
LOL. That's a straight-forward answer.

One can never have to much horsepower !
True.

Looking at this point in a positive way, there will be parts available from the salvage yard all the time. Nothing will be hard to find. The organ donors association should also have a better supply of vital body parts.

Comparing this car to a super-car, let alone a sport bike is silly. Yeah, it's got a decent amount of power but it's not crazy powerful. And on top of that, the sticker price is NOT what I would call easily obtainable for the masses. There are a lot of cars on the road these days, with this kind of power, and more, with FAR less sophisticated suspension systems, and no T/C or stability systems. THOSE cars are dangerous. Ever drive one of the first Gen. Vipers? Of how about a modified Terminator Cobra?

Tons of Vs out there at auto auctions every week--damaged.

Kat, I know cars and bikes are apples and oranges here.
My only reason for drawing them in was to point out that some people are capable of knowing their limitations for either, and some don't. Usually the ones that don't end up hospitalized or worse.
At least in a car you have airbags I guess.
I think the issue brought up by the original poster, for whatever reason, is that it isn't so much the car itself as it is the driver... and how many drivers are really qualified to handle over 500 horsepower.
Being able to afford a car payment doesn't mean someone can handle that kind of power any more than buying an Impala would qualify me to drive one in a Nascar race. (to make a comparison like this even more rediculous)

I don't for a second think that they shouldn't make a car with 500-600 horses, but the buyers have to be sure they know what they are getting into.
I mean how many V owners on here would just hand their keys to some Joe walking down the street and trust him to drive it without wrapping it around a tree?

I remember talking on the internet a few years ago to a young man that got an LS1 Camaro.
I cautioned him time and again to respect his car or it would take him for a ride he'd never forget. He told me how cautious he was and how he knew that he needed to learn how to drive the car properly before he started getting "crazy". He ended up driving it off the road, firing off every airbag the thing had and almost killing himself and his girlfriend trying to be a hotshot.
That doesn't mean the car shouldn't have been made, it means he should have known what he could handle and stayed inside that envelope.

I know what you meant, and I agree that there ARE a lot of machines out there that can easily be had by people that will get in WAY over their heads with them. But that's America. Don't start down that slippery slope of trying to play "mommy" for the masses. Your heart's in the right place but it's just NOT that simple.
As long as I can remember, there's been machines that were well beyond the men that tried to tame them. Hell, before there were machines, you still had men trying to prove themselves by trying to "tame the savage beast".
Don't worry, the same thing that happened years ago, will happen again. History WILL repeat itself. Insurance or legislation WILL somehow step in and put an end to the craziness. The masses WILL be safe yet again, from the wildness that is power and performance vehicles. And the cycle will repeat again, and again.

I think it's price point is still such that we won't see a lot of inexperienced drivers in them. I see way more morons wrecking modded mustangs, etc.


That theory seems to be working out well for all those wrecked Enzos too.

Just as long as they don't take me or my loved ones with them....whatever.

That theory seems to be working out well for all those wrecked Enzos too.

I'm not saying we won't see our share of wrecked Vs. It can happen to the best of drivers, hell look at what just happened to Rick. And I can dig up a photo of any car that is wrecked just as bad as that Enzo from the web. That photo proves nothing.

All I'm saying is that, in general, more experienced drivers are usually safer drivers. This car is more likely to be purchased and driven by more experienced drivers. That is all.

I know what you meant, and I agree that there ARE a lot of machines out there that can easily be had by people that will get in WAY over their heads with them.

As long as I can remember, there's been machines that were well beyond the men that tried to tame them.

This is even worse in boats.

Anyone can buy a boat, and no qualification whatsoever, other than money, is required to operate it. I see people in 50 foot cruisers that have never had their hands on the wheel prior to this purchase, and certainly don't understand marine navigation rules. Same for people in go-fast boats - lay down the cash, and go 80-100 mph in a boat. Bad idea, but lots of people do it. Probably the worst offenders are jet-skis - they have no idea that a 40,000 lb boat like mine can not turn or decelerate the same as their jet-ski, and they risk life and limb because of it.

So it goes.................

it just means that the rest of us with half a brain have to be a little extra vigilant.

All I'm saying is that, in general, more experienced drivers are usually safer drivers. This car is more likely to be purchased and driven by more experienced drivers. That is all.

Your first sentence is "generally true", although there ARE plenty of studies that prove the opposite. Many times, more experienced drivers display more complacency in their driving habits, and therefore can be less safe in many instances. But I'll give you that "in general" I think an experienced driver is safer.
However, I disagree with your second sentence. I think this car is more likely to be driven by a performance enthusiast, or someone wishing to be seen as such. As such, I think it's a no-brainer that the car will be getting driven aggressively by most of it's owners, some with experience in powerful cars, and some without. In either case, this "usually" means the car has a better than even chance of getting in an accident. And THAT's why insurance is generally higher on these types of cars.

As I recall I never said we should curb this, in fact I hope they keep pushing the production car horesepower envelope. Consumers just need to make educated purchases, not buy trophies to kill themselves in.


Good Lord... boats... don't even get me started on that.
At least to drive a car you have to have a license!
What a joke.

Boats, Sportbikes, Snowmobiles, modified riding lawnmowers. There are a number of cheaper more dangerous machines out there.

If one had access to the information. You could use Corvette data over the last few years to come up with a pretty decent theory as to whether HP makes a difference or not. I believe the C5 started at 345hp, the C6 went to 400, then I believe 430. So if you had the "wrecked" numbers you could compare vs model year.

I'm not saying we won't see our share of wrecked Vs. It can happen to the best of drivers, hell look at what just happened to Rick. And I can dig up a photo of any car that is wrecked just as bad as that Enzo from the web. That photo proves nothing.

All I'm saying is that, in general, more experienced drivers are usually safer drivers. This car is more likely to be purchased and driven by more experienced drivers. That is all.

The point about the Enzos is that your looking at $1,000,000+ for one and a VERY small production number (399) but in relation a LARGE number of crashed ones.

http://www.wreckedexotics.com/enzo/

"Well, the Ferrari Enzo continues to appreciate in value, and not only due to it's limited production and hyper-exoticness. Some Enzos fall victim to their Schuey-wannabe owners, who learn too late that owning an Enzo and having the skills required to handle one are two very different things."





"

So true!

All kidding aside about "never enough horsepower", this tragic event should remind us all to be careful. Here in Central Florida, 5 kids (ages 18-20) were killed, racing on a runway in an M5.

Reading through the posts on the board referenced in the article is truly heartbraking.





Driver of BMW in fatal crash sought Web advice on making it go faster


BY RICK CUNDIFF
Star-Banner

(Updated at 1:30 p.m.) OCALA - Less than 12 hours before he died, Joshua Ammirato was posting messages on an Internet message board seeking advice about how to drive his 2008 BMW M5 faster.

Ammirato, 18, logged onto M5board.com Thursday and Friday, asking other M5 drivers how to shift smoother in the 500-horsepower machine.

"The problem is when I'm going pedal to the metal pushing 140 and upshifting, there tends to be thud noise with the gear change," he wrote in one post.

Ammirato and four other young Marion County men were killed at about 3:45 a.m. Saturday, when the BMW M5 he was driving sailed off the end of the Greystone airstrip in Anthony and crashed into a tree.

Messages on the board devoted to M5 enthusiasts show Ammirato logged on shortly before 10 p.m. Thursday as "AmericanM5."

"Let me say I am beginner when it comes to high performance cars as I am only 18 so take it easy on me," he wrote.

Other members of the board expressed skepticism that Ammirato could have a car with a base price of $82,900 at such a young age, but warned him to take it easy until he gained more driving experience.

"Maybe your 2 years driving experience in your whole life is the problem," one member wrote.

"The fact that I never drove a manual car before may be true, but I've been driving for a lot longer than two years buddy," Ammirato responded.

Ammirato's M5, according to his posts, was equipped with a "sequential manual gearbox," which shifts like a traditional manual transmission, but without a clutch pedal.

Automobile Magazine has described the M5 as "a fearfully intimidating machine," with writer Michael Jordan adding "we've found that the SMG transmission ... makes you feel like a victim of speed, not its master."

Ammirato told forum members he'd had the car for about three weeks. The vehicle is registered to his father, Santo Ammirato, according to the Florida Highway Patrol.

In his posts, Joshua Ammirato listed his other cars as a 2008 BMW 535i, a 2007 BMW 335i and a 2007 Cadillac Escalade. All have less horsepower than the M5.

News of Ammirato's death drew condolences from forum members on Saturday and Sunday.

"My prayers are with Josh and his family as well. Being that I am 21 and going on my second M5 I know the temptation is great and sometimes hard to handle at that age," one member wrote. "This is a very serious car with extraordinary performance, i have learned to respect it because there is a VERY, VERY thin line between losing it and keeping it on the road."

Another hoped others would learn from the tragedy.

"Truly a sad, sad event. May God be with the families and friends," the poster wrote. "Hope that they have not died completely in vain -- that many young drivers (and their parents) will take this to heart and learn from it."

Ammirato asked forum members on Friday about turning off the M5's electronic stability control for higher performance. A member wrote back with concern.

"With all (due) respect, gradually learn your car before you turn off (stability control)," he wrote. "With a little mistake combination of your mind and your right foot, you can be history. Be safe and enjoy.

"P.S. People on this board care about each other, especially when someone owns 500 hp car at age of 18. Don't take it personal. We all watch each other(s) back."

Another member expressed concern about Ammirato's maturity.

"[I]t's just disturbing to know, if you're for real, that an 18 year old who is asking these questions about a 500hp car is driving the same streets I am. I don't have anything against young guys driving nice cars, but an 18 year old behind the wheel of an M5 is what accidents are made of," he wrote.

Ammirato responded at 5:33 p.m. Friday that he was responsible.

"I completely understand where you are coming from assuming that I am irresponsible ... that is definitely understandable. I do sometimes make bad decisions but I am young and I do drive safe and I will not endanger the lives of others."

A member from Australia again cautioned Ammirato to be careful.

"My only bit of advice matey -- If you crash in a big way expect to be on the news," he wrote. "Enjoy and resist the temptation to drag others at the lights."

Ammirato responded, in his last post, at 9:02 p.m. Friday.

"Thanks guys, don't get me wrong I never said I didn't respect your wisdom," he wrote. "[T]hanks for the welcome and I am looking forward to getting to know you guys better ... Josh."

Some Enzos fall victim to their Schuey-wannabe owners, who learn too late that owning an Enzo and having the skills required to handle one are two very different things.

With an Enzo, skill and ownership are the same thing.

I've read many sources stating that purchasing an Enzo is limited to invitation only. A couple of the requirements were ownership of one or more previous high-end Ferraris and the successful completion of rigorous road course training held by Ferrari itself. It's not a car that even someone who can afford it would be able to just walk into the dealership and buy.

If the above is true, it can be assumed that they were all reasonably skilled drivers. Some things are just beyond your control, no matter what your level of experience may be (that and no amount of skill provides omniscience or will save you when the world comes to meet you at 200mph).

Just another case of some parent overindulging his kid, and in the end his poor parenting skills cost not only him a son but took others from their families as well.
Some people shouldn't be allowed to have kids.
And I agree with the forum member who expressed concern about being on the same roads as some of these idiots.

With an Enzo, skill and ownership are the same thing.

I've read many sources stating that purchasing an Enzo is limited to invitation only. A couple of the requirements were ownership of one or more previous high-end Ferraris and the successful completion of rigorous road course training held by Ferrari itself. It's not a car that even someone who can afford it would be able to just walk into the dealership and buy.

If the above is true, it can be assumed that they were all reasonably skilled drivers. Some things are just beyond your control, no matter what your level of experience may be (that and no amount of skill provides omniscience or will save you when the world comes to meet you at 200mph).

I don't think you can make the jump from driver training for the original owners to an assumption that all of the drivers were reasonably skilled. The only assumption that could be made from that statement is that the original owners were reasonably skilled (I don't think I would go that far.)

These cars a driven by non-owners, friends of the owners, relatives of the owners, and even owners who did not buy the car from Ferrari, rather, they are the second, third or further removed from Ferrari.

Even with driver training for the original owners, for those cars that are wrecked by the original owner ON THE STREET, those situations lead me to believe that they were not, by definition, "reasonably skilled." A portion of skills need to be attributed to good judgment and exercising the performance capabilities of these machines on public streets demonstrates a distinct lack of good judgment and, therefore, poor skills.

A reasonably skilled driver does not test the performance of these machines on the public streets, but rather demonstrates reasonable skills in harnessing the machine so that they do not lose control on the pubic streets. An owner should only test the performance of these machines at the track and then only under safe conditions and with the proper safety equipment.

But then I am just like everyone else here, this is just imho.

I don't think you can make the jump from driver training for the original owners to an assumption that all of the drivers were reasonably skilled. The only assumption that could be made from that statement is that the original owners were reasonably skilled (I don't think I would go that far.)

These cars a driven by non-owners, friends of the owners, relatives of the owners, and even owners who did not buy the car from Ferrari, rather, they are the second, third or further removed from Ferrari.

Even with driver training for the original owners, for those cars that are wrecked by the original owner ON THE STREET, those situations lead me to believe that they were not, by definition, "reasonably skilled." A portion of skills need to be attributed to good judgment and exercising the performance capabilities of these machines on public streets demonstrates a distinct lack of good judgment and, therefore, poor skills.

A reasonably skilled driver does not test the performance of these machines on the public streets, but rather demonstrates reasonable skills in harnessing the machine so that they do not lose control on the pubic streets. An owner should only test the performance of these machines at the track and then only under safe conditions and with the proper safety equipment.

But then I am just like everyone else here, this is just imho.

I totally agree.

Skill and judgement are two different things.

Here's one of my favorite videos that illustrates the point perfectly:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTEvJ2Tl8Ss
This was an accident waiting to happen. And as the video shows, you didn't have to wait too long!

Wow - this is great. There is actually some intelligent discourse going on here, rather than everyone calling for my head. This is what I was trying to do - not piss everyone off :)

One point I would like to emphasize: Someone said that these cars are not supercars. However, they DO have supercar power. This list of vehicles with 550+hp is very short. And, if you look at the list, they are all quite expensive, relative to the '09 V.

In the case of the Ocala FL M5 the kid literally drove of the end of a runway, which was elevated 85 feet off the ground. 500 hp or not if you drive off a 85 foot cliff you are in trouble. Im not sure the car could be blamed in any way shape or form.

Not exactly the car, but sort of.

In that case, there was a thread on the M5 Board about using old or lightly used runways as test strips to get the car to speed. This kid went and did that, but hit the jet blast ramp at the end and went airborne.

Also, I'm not real keen on making comments like "idiots", "deserving", or the like. This was a tragic car wreck, where 5 young people died.

Black CTSV - not all of this discussion can be regarded as intelligent.

However, it makes the point that maybe supercar power is not for everyone.

In the case of the Ocala FL M5 the kid literally drove of the end of a runway, which was elevated 85 feet off the ground. 500 hp or not if you drive off a 85 foot cliff you are in trouble. Im not sure the car could be blamed in any way shape or form.

Hey Brett!
No doubt about that case being purely a case of stupidity. Nobody's fault except the loose nut behind the wheel.

pics

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/media/photo/2008-01/34948405.jpg

http://www.local10.com/2008/0127/15146481.jpg

Too much horsepower?
no
such
thing

Hey Brett!
No doubt about that case being purely a case of stupidity. Nobody's fault except the loose nut behind the wheel.
KATS BACK!

Not exactly the car, but sort of.

In that case, there was a thread on the M5 Board about using old or lightly used runways as test strips to get the car to speed. This kid went and did that, but hit the jet blast ramp at the end and went airborne.

Also, I'm not real keen on making comments like "idiots", "deserving", or the like. This was a tragic car wreck, where 5 young people died.

Black CTSV - not all of this discussion can be regarded as intelligent.

However, it makes the point that maybe supercar power is not for everyone.

The dictionary defines IDIOT as "A foolish or stupid person". You have a problem with the use of the word in that context? Sorry but anyone who does what that kid did, is at the very least, foolish. Hell, if the driver had lived, a case could be made that he would be held legally responsible for the deaths of his friends in the car. You want to point out that the driver was somehow being responsible because he was driving on a runway, but how about pointing out how irresponsible he was to be doing that speed on an unfamiliar roadway, or that he did it with all those people in the car with him? No, sorry, the kid was an IDIOT and ended up not only killing himself but his friends.
You know who I feel sorry for in this case? The car that was totaled for no good reason. The land owner of the runway, who most likely got sued.
In my mind, this is no different than the countless cases you see in the news where some idiot gets behind the wheel of a car, does something stupid, and ends up killing himself or others. What amazes me is how many people try to make excuses for them.

lets also keep in mind this particular runway is in a residential neighborhood. Not some remote airport. There are tons of things that could go wrong...very bad judgement. What if Travolta landed his 707 on them?????

I never said what they did was OK. It was a stupid thing to do.

If you want to track your car, you track it.

However, no one deserves to die in a car wreck. Believe me, I have had to talk to my High School freshman about how getting into a car with someone who is impaired (intoxicated, in a bad mood, has poor judgement) or whatever, is the same thing as slipping behind the wheel yourself, and you do so at your own peril.

I just said that anytime anyone dies is a car wreck, it is a tragedy. There may be some lessons to be learned, but pissing on someone's grave isn't exactly my style, I suppose.

Sure, I agree that when somebody dies in a car wreck it's a shame. I tend to feel the same way ANYBODY dies, especially if it was an accident. Hell, I even feel bad for a professional daredevil that dies while performing, which is nowhere near the same thing in my book since the guy was tempting fate and as we all realize, sometimes you get the bear, and sometimes, the bear gets you. Tempting fate is fine as long as you're willing to accept the penalty of coming up on the short end. But in cases like these, I find it very hard to feel bad for anyone who takes such a wild risk, especially when they are also including others in their gamble. VERY poor judgment for sure but he raised the level of risk SO HIGH that the only penalty would surely be realized to be death. And yet, he did so without a second thought. Think about it...TWO HUNDRED MILES PER HOUR....Let that sink in a second and then realize how senseless the whole thing was.

...There may be some lessons to be learned, but pissing on someone's grave isn't exactly my style, I suppose.

I agree with a Tech fan...what's the world coming to.:D

I agree with a Tech fan...what's the world coming to.:D

Guessin' that means you're a Dawg. I'm not sure I'd send my kids there, but I have plenty of friends that don't seem any worse for the wear of getting a UGA degree.:lildevil: In fact, some of them even (gulp, hard to admit) even do quite well.:halo:

Let he who has NEVER done a foolish/stupid thing in a vehicle be the first to criticize. When I think back, there are lots of things I've done and gotten away with no accidents, others weren't so lucky and we went to their funerals.
I see two things here, not necessarily related. One doing foolish things while driving anything. My dumbest was in a VEGA. Other is driving a high horsepower vehicle. As a matter of fact most high horsepower vehicles are probably safer than the plain jane econobox. Traction control, stability systems, better brakes etc. Theoretically, there should be less accidents. However, most of us are guys and we sometimes get the urge to do something that in retrospect was stupid and that is where the problem is.

Agreed, but there's "stupid" and then there's "friggin' idiotic".

A friend of mine just totalled an 05. In the case of the 09, there will be alot of guys who underestimate the car and overestimate thier skill level. I bet it gets alot of points with the insurance people too.

I think the Gen II V will be easier to control than the Gen I, despite the extra power. It has better stabilitrac, better launch, better brakes, better tires, and a better suspension.

I was thinking about this today; this car might have too much horsepower for too little $$. You always hear about guys wrapping Ferraris and Lambos around trees - too much power, too little time behind the wheel. Now, we have access to a supercar for under $70k - my guess is that we'll see a lot more of this. Having this kind of power out of the box, within reach to the masses [relatively speaking], is going to be interesting.

Lots of guys have wrecked their 1st Gen V's with only 400hp. Everyone calls their 04-07's beasts, but those cars are relatively tame compared to the '09's. :cookoo:

That being said, if I get an '09, I will certainly be modding the hell out of it :D

i totally agree with you.


i dont think the argument here should be debating what stupid is or who is foolish or who can or can't drive... thats all fine and dandy, but doesnt take away from the point that some people will step into this car and will be lucky to step out.
if you can answer 24/30 questions, can see worth a rats ass, can do a k-turn, and have the $ then you can legally own and drive this car.
will this car fall into the wrong hands? absolutely
will everyone who gets behind the wheel of this car crash it? definitely not.
can it be avoided? not by contemporary way.
would this car be less likely to wreck with only 300 hp? yes.
should there be restrictions on how much hp/tq a car can have? never.

many of the well respected members on this forum have wrecked, and they fit the "standards" that many seem to have; intelligent, wealthy, pretty skillful drivers, car enthusiast, "older," ... yet somehow, their car was demolished.

bottom line, this car is going to end up getting ****ed up, a lot.

shit happens, people make bad decisions, such is life.
rather than rallying that automobile manufacturers produce less powerful/torque-y cars, we should be emphasizing, a never ending strive to maintaining and enhancing safety.
best of both worlds.

Never too much hp besides they have all the electronic nannies to cover their @ss..

You go to far in this CTS V and its definitely the drivers fault....

JMO! Awesome car!

550 is the right number!

IMO the tires are more likely to cause control problems than the HP. Cold performance tires can be dangerous and not everyone has experience with tires that drive so differently under varying conditions.

The advancement in active handling towards PTM and there should be little problem keeping this new CTS V on the road...

No more so than a MB E63 or BMW M5/M6 etc..

except this new cadillac is faster! and 2/3rds the cost.

And American!

The CTS-V IS over-powered. 550/550 is excessive by anyone's standards. Although it has an enhanced stabili-trak, all of it's safety features are easily defeatable at the push of a button. The capabilities of the new V will exceed the majority of the buyer/owner's skills and that's a fact. Add to this a completely irresponsible decision to price it at a level that makes it attainable to the "common man" and you've got a recipe for disaster. And I for one can't wait to taste it!

i totally agree with you.


i dont think the argument here should be debating what stupid is or who is foolish or who can or can't drive... thats all fine and dandy, but doesnt take away from the point that some people will step into this car and will be lucky to step out.
if you can answer 24/30 questions, can see worth a rats ass, can do a k-turn, and have the $ then you can legally own and drive this car.
will this car fall into the wrong hands? absolutely
will everyone who gets behind the wheel of this car crash it? definitely not.
can it be avoided? not by contemporary way.
would this car be less likely to wreck with only 300 hp? yes.
should there be restrictions on how much hp/tq a car can have? never.

many of the well respected members on this forum have wrecked, and they fit the "standards" that many seem to have; intelligent, wealthy, pretty skillful drivers, car enthusiast, "older," ... yet somehow, their car was demolished.

bottom line, this car is going to end up getting ****ed up, a lot.


Excellent post - you conveyed my message much more efficiently than I did :)

The CTS-V IS over-powered. 550/550 is excessive by anyone's standards. Although it has an enhanced stabili-trak, all of it's safety features are easily defeatable at the push of a button. The capabilities of the new V will exceed the majority of the buyer/owner's skills and that's a fact. Add to this a completely irresponsible decision to price it at a level that makes it attainable to the "common man" and you've got a recipe for disaster. And I for one can't wait to taste it!

Again - I appreciate the open-minded view here. And, I'm glad to see that you're looking forward to the car as much as I am. If I do get one [which at this point seems likely], I will likely be modifying mine, as well. :cheers:

The CTS-V IS over-powered. 550/550 is excessive by anyone's standards. Although it has an enhanced stabili-trak, all of it's safety features are easily defeatable at the push of a button. The capabilities of the new V will exceed the majority of the buyer/owner's skills and that's a fact. Add to this a completely irresponsible decision to price it at a level that makes it attainable to the "common man" and you've got a recipe for disaster. And I for one can't wait to taste it!

That about sums it up. Some people enjoy excess, either in luxury or performance. For those who want ridiculous luxury, there's cars like Bentley that have champagne coolers, teak decklids and silk carpets. It's just as unnecessary as 550hp, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be built.

The CTS-V IS over-powered. 550/550 is excessive by anyone's standards. Although it has an enhanced stabili-trak, all of it's safety features are easily defeatable at the push of a button. The capabilities of the new V will exceed the majority of the buyer/owner's skills and that's a fact. Add to this a completely irresponsible decision to price it at a level that makes it attainable to the "common man" and you've got a recipe for disaster. And I for one can't wait to taste it!

I agree with CVP, it is over-powered. No one needs 550hp to get around especially in a sedan.

A lot of cars exceed their owner's skills though. Porshe, RS4, Corvette, Lotus, the V, a few AMGs, etc. The smart owners will know THEIR limits though. Heck, some drivers have trouble controlling their regular CTS

The V needs a bunch of HP though due to its weight. Even with 550hp the V is looking at pulling about 7.5 lbs per HP. Some manufacturers have AWD and can use the power more efficiently.

The CTS-V IS over-powered. 550/550 is excessive by anyone's standards. Although it has an enhanced stabili-trak, all of it's safety features are easily defeatable at the push of a button. The capabilities of the new V will exceed the majority of the buyer/owner's skills and that's a fact. Add to this a completely irresponsible decision to price it at a level that makes it attainable to the "common man" and you've got a recipe for disaster. And I for one can't wait to taste it!

I think you've lost touch with reality. Anyone who calls a $60-70,000 car "...attainable to the "common man"..." is about as "in touch" with the "common man" as most of out legislators these days. You know how much a loaf of bread costs?:bigroll:

I think he was speaking relatively, as compared to what it would normaly cost to own something comparable to a 550/550 sedan. He put "Common Man" in quotations for a reason.. maybe he should have added an astrik and explained himself... <shrug>

I can afford a 70k car, but I really couldn't afford, say an S63 AMG at a MSRP of just under 130k... so by that comparison I am a "Common Man".


Correct me if I misspoke CVP33.

I know what you mean, it's just that even though I could buy one of these cars, I seriously can't imagine spending that kind of dough on a car. Maybe I'm just a blue-collar guy that happened to get lucky enough to play at this level but then again maybe I'm still well aware that $70K is the kind of money that only a small percentage of people could ever hope to be able to spend on a car (unless you're counting those who spend WELL above their means).

That is your perspective, and everyone has there own.

70k on a car is alot from my perspective as well, I've spent more in the past, but at least this time I think I will get what I paid for.

My best friend walks into dealerships and writes a check in full for an 08 QX56 and thinks nothing of it.

Just because you see things from your perspective doesn't mean its the right one, nor the wrong one... its just yours.

These cars take a little practice and common sense. Not made for the standard retard or rich moron.

(unless you're counting those who spend WELL above their means).
yes -- if they can get behind the wheel, they count.
These cars take a little practice and common sense. Not made for the standard retard or rich moron.

its made to sell, period.

I think you've lost touch with reality. Anyone who calls a $60-70,000 car "...attainable to the "common man"..." is about as "in touch" with the "common man" as most of out legislators these days. You know how much a loaf of bread costs?:bigroll:

Oh katty, you just love to argue. You're so cute when you're pissy. For the record, I define "common man" as non-race car driver with an annual income of $100K or better. I think you'll find that nearly 25% of the population is in this category. I'd say we're pretty common. And for the record bread costs what it did 20 years ago. If you want to see inflation look at eggs. I know, I sell both. :yup:

its about 19% but you were close :)

Oh katty, you just love to argue. You're so cute when you're pissy. For the record, I define "common man" as non-race car driver with an annual income of $100K or better. I think you'll find that nearly 25% of the population is in this category. I'd say we're pretty common. And for the record bread costs what it did 20 years ago. If you want to see inflation look at eggs. I know, I sell both. :yup:


Agreed; ~$70k for a car is NOT a big deal any more. A decent pickup costs more thank $40k these days!

its about 19% but you were close :)

I was actually reading a census report that showed 26% by the year 2010. I did fudge a littler there. BUSTED! :banghead:

I think that considering the average cost of a new car is $27,500 you can't say that $70,000 is something the "common man" is buying. And as Brett pointed out, 19% is hardly a big enough group to back-up being labeled "common" either.
Oh, and BTW, fudging numbers would tend to point towards YOU loving to argue, or at least needing to win one.

19+% isn't enough? thats 1/5 ... one out of 5 drivers could be driving a 550/550 car ... most of whom will not be able to handle such an automobile, and the final product will be a wreck. that person, their passengers, and yourself and those around you can all get seriously hurt... 1 in 5

19+% isn't enough? thats 1/5 ... one out of 5 drivers could be driving a 550/550 car ... most of whom will not be able to handle such an automobile, and the final product will be a wreck. that person, their passengers, and yourself and those around you can all get seriously hurt... 1 in 5

Related to Ralph Nader?

Kat you are impossible to pin down. You slippery little devil you. May you find happiness in something. Anything for that matter. Albeit not the CTS-V.

And for the record 19% is quite a bit. We have roughly 130,000,000 households. So using the 19%, 24,700,000 households make over $100,000. 24,700,000 of anything is a lot to me.

Kat you are impossible to pin down. You slippery little devil you. May you find happiness in something. Anything for that matter. Albeit not the CTS-V.

And for the record 19% is quite a bit. We have roughly 130,000,000 households. So using the 19%, 24,700,000 households make over $100,000. 24,700,000 of anything is a lot to me.

That 19% is YOUR estimate. No way am I believing for a second that a full 1/5 of new car buyers could afford a $70,000 car. Before I get flamed for this, please remember, I'm not knocking the car. I can see where it's probably worth even penny of the $70,000 price tag. My issue was the statement that the "common man" could afford one.

Whats funny here is that somehow we equated making 100k a year as being able to afford a 70k car. On a 5 year loan the payment is around 16% of your gross if you are just making the 100k. Plenty of people spend like that but that does not mean they should. Im reminded of the gentleman in an apartment complex not too far from my house, that has a 2 year old Escalade with gigantic rims and the place he lives in is Section 8 housing.

no more than 50% of your annual gross income should be tied up in depreciating assets.
100K household --> no more than 50K on cars. and ALWAYS pay cash for them!

Whats funny here is that somehow we equated making 100k a year as being able to afford a 70k car. On a 5 year loan the payment is around 16% of your gross if you are just making the 100k. Plenty of people spend like that but that does not mean they should. Im reminded of the gentleman in an apartment complex not too far from my house, that has a 2 year old Escalade with gigantic rims and the place he lives in is Section 8 housing.

I would tend to agree with you. Although a single guy living in a modest condo might justify it, a family man making $100k/yr would be irresponsible to spend that kind of dough - this is only my opinion, of course.

Interesting.

My salary is sub 100K, married with no kids, bought a brand new V. Oh yeah, own a house in California too.

I have saved my money for a new car and then went out and bought one and did as Urb said and paid cash. Since you cannot write off the interest on a car loan you are a bit crazy to finance unless you get 0% or a second on the home if you need the write off's.

I have enough to buy the new V at 70K but I think I will hold off as the 07 makes me smile ear to ear. Don't get me wrong, I would love to have the car and if I did it would be pushing the 600HP mark by the end of the second month of owning it.

May need to get that Super Charger off of the 09 and fit it onto the current V though. :D

Bottom line is if you want the car then a 100K salary should be plenty if you save and prioritize properly. If you don't want the car then don't buy it - simple.

That 19% is YOUR estimate. No way am I believing for a second that a full 1/5 of new car buyers could afford a $70,000 car. Before I get flamed for this, please remember, I'm not knocking the car. I can see where it's probably worth even penny of the $70,000 price tag. My issue was the statement that the "common man" could afford one.

Actually it wasn't my number it was the US Census Bureau. As for what someone can afford, I always assume a 20% down payment of either cash or trade. But I know plenty of guys who make 100K who drive 2 yr. old Devilles, because they're not into cars. My bud buys a 2 yr. old lease return every year and has for the 8 years I've known him. Everybody spends as they see fit. I just take the $100 per weekend that I'd spend on golf and instead roll that into my hobby, cars. Fast, big, American cars.

:yeah:

Agreeing with a Chrysler fan, scary.

Yeah, and you can drive through many low to middle-class neighborhoods and see some very expensive cars in driveways but that isn't an average. It just shows that priorities can be quite different.

Yeah, and you can drive through many low to middle-class neighborhoods and see some very expensive cars in driveways but that isn't an average. It just shows that priorities can be quite different.

soooo they get the cars to let them sit in their driveways?



they will drive those cars, they'll be on the public roads, adding to the likelihood of them not being able to handle the car & hurting themselves + others.

It's a lot more horsepower than what's needed for normal driving but it's not too much. If the car had 800 horsepower it would be fine if the driver drove within their ability.

soooo they get the cars to let them sit in their driveways?



they will drive those cars, they'll be on the public roads, adding to the likelihood of them not being able to handle the car & hurting themselves + others.


And if pigs grew wings they could fly.

You are still stuck on the "V" is gonna kill everyone kick I see.

And if pigs grew wings they could fly.

You are still stuck on the "V" is gonna kill everyone kick I see.

V's dont kill people, people kill people :bouncy::highfive:

V's dont kill people, people kill people :bouncy::highfive:

Or in Urb's case, "V's don't kill people, people kill V's"

:rofl:


:getaway:

^^ LOL.

Hoping for a couple of wrecks, I need a new rear for my V. :D