: The fastest four-door sedan in the world



Lord Cadillac
01-15-08, 11:59 PM
Regarding the 2009 Cadillac CTS-V:


We believe it to be the fastest four-door sedan in the world.

Wow. We chatted after the conference with a GM guy we know and said, "You know an M5 will do the quarter in 12.7 seconds, right? And an S65 AMG will do it in 12.6, right?"

"Yup," he said. "We're faster."

Was this posted already?
http://blogs.edmunds.com/Straightline/4122

I'm also hearing it outhandles the M5..

CadillacSTS42005
01-16-08, 12:30 AM
daammmmnnn

Feffman
01-16-08, 12:39 AM
The interior of the new CTS (V or otherwise) is great, the new V engine is absolutely fantastic, but the part I truly am excited about is the Magneride (sp??) suspension. Using the Magneride suspension (same as the Ferrari 599, Corvette Z06 and a couple of Audi S I believe) really makes the new V a world class car. Way to go GM!

Feff
www.MVPTrackTime.com

thebigjimsho
01-16-08, 01:01 AM
I'm more concerned about an E63 than an S65...

Lord Cadillac
01-16-08, 01:30 AM
With the magnetic suspension, the 2009 CTS-V is going to outhandle the BMW M5 and have a softer ride during normal driving...

Dave's V
01-16-08, 03:03 AM
The C63 is the bad boy Mercedes. Regardless any AMG is extremely quick.

HiTechRV
01-16-08, 11:09 AM
Lutz claims it will "suck the doors off of an M5" at current power levels.

OldRoadDawg
01-16-08, 11:17 AM
What qualifies as "fastest"?
12 secs in a straight line for 1320 ft, or a lap around Nurburgring with right and left handers, elevation changes, etc. . . . or both.

Just a question I have.

HiTechRV
01-16-08, 11:20 AM
Normally quickest is best acceleration and fastest is top speed. Time around a real road course is the best measure of performance IMO too Dawg.

StealthCTSVJJL
01-16-08, 02:35 PM
I think "Worlds fastest sedan" is a fast changing title, it may be the quickest or fastest today, but who knows by next fall. Thats why I think there may be e few more HP on the table, much like the STS v that was initially to have 440 but was tweaked to 469 by intro time.

HiTechRV
01-16-08, 11:55 PM
STS did not get any more power to my knowledge - the test changed. GM is conservative in ratings. Many imports gamed the old test. The new one is more uniform.

Katshot
01-18-08, 12:07 PM
"Fastest 4-door sedan in the world". A statement that inspires much speculation but gives little in the way of substance. Like I said in another thread, once the car is out and in the hands of enthusiasts, we'll see what it'll REALLY do. Until then this is simply bench-racing.

HiTechRV
01-19-08, 09:46 AM
Unless we can get some internal benchmarking numbers....

MauiV
01-23-08, 11:07 PM
The C63 is the bad boy Mercedes. Regardless any AMG is extremely quick.

Are they reaaly gonna shoehorn a 6.3 into a C class? The E has it, but I havent seen anything about the C.

And in the end it is still a C class.

The SLR McLaren is the BAD BOY Mercedes.

concorso
01-23-08, 11:52 PM
Are they reaaly gonna shoehorn a 6.3 into a C class? The E has it, but I havent seen anything about the C.

And in the end it is still a C class.

The SLR McLaren is the BAD BOY Mercedes.http://www.fast-autos.net/vehicles/Mercedes-Benz/2008/C_63_AMG/
They've tested it on Top Gear allready. It was fast, but was also a handful.

When youre talking about fastest, you could also mean 'top speed'. And the Bentley Flying Spur tops out over 190 mph.

MacOSR
01-27-08, 08:46 AM
For the new CTS-V to out handle the M5 there will need to be a HUGE improvement. I loved my 04 V but it does not handle anywhere hear as well as the M5. The M5 handles so well you can actually relax driving at 130 for an hour. There is much more then putting a big engine into a sedan. I hope GM got it right this time.

thebigjimsho
01-27-08, 01:55 PM
For the new CTS-V to out handle the M5 there will need to be a HUGE improvement. I loved my 04 V but it does not handle anywhere hear as well as the M5. The M5 handles so well you can actually relax driving at 130 for an hour. There is much more then putting a big engine into a sedan. I hope GM got it right this time.Huh? What M5 do you speak of? When the Gen I V was released, it was easily outlapping the M5 and had almost identical times to the M3. The only reason it wasn't faster is that Car and Driver was worried about the oil temp alarm that was inaccurate in the early models.

I've driven M5s. I've lapped some pretty serious machinery on the road courses myself. I suggest that if you want to critique the V vs. M5 handling, you know what you're talking about first.

And what does doing 130 for an hour have to do with handling?

gothicaleigh
01-27-08, 02:44 PM
When youre talking about fastest, you could also mean 'top speed'. And the Bentley Flying Spur tops out over 190 mph.

The latest M5 is electronically limited to 155mph and reaches 205mph without.

v84life
01-28-08, 11:36 PM
The latest M5 is electronically limited to 155mph and reaches 205mph without.

205 thats a tall claim....I'd like to see that:suspect:

atdeneve
01-29-08, 11:08 AM
Various vids of M6s doing 200 plus. Although, we really don't have any way of knowing what kind of work has or has not been done to the car. Them crazy Russians.

I wouldn't doubt it though ... I think. I mean, they do have 7 gears. And they're all usable. Whereas the Vs top gear is just way too tall to do any top end climbing.

v84life
01-30-08, 01:32 AM
205 in a 4000lbs sedan is still a tall order. Let me see it.:suspect:

gothicaleigh
01-30-08, 10:35 AM
A few results from searching youtube for "M5 top speed":

vgxSHzaw47E

ru-FMsg_Wpk

Clearer vid of a delimited ///M5 (320km/h is roughly 198mph)
TGyJX9JiVJg

Katshot
01-30-08, 11:30 AM
Could be me, but those videos sure look staged. I mean, in the first one you can see out the windshield and it sure doesn't look like he's going 200mph. Then, if you look at the others, the car is still upshifting a couple times above 180 or so mph?! Somehow I don't think so. Something's seriously wrong with those videos IMO.

gothicaleigh
01-30-08, 12:05 PM
Each gear at 7,000 RPM (w/ stock 3.15 rearend):

1st : 40 mph
2nd : 67 mph
3rd : 101 mph
4th : 138 mph
5th : 169 mph
6th : 204 mph

Base e60 M5 electronic limiter is set at 155mph.
Factory optional "VMAX" electronic limiter is set at 305km/h (or 189.52mph). Driving licenses from BMW required to order.
Delimiters are available from Dinan and Turner Motorsports.


Could be me, but those videos sure look staged. I mean, in the first one you can see out the windshield and it sure doesn't look like he's going 200mph. Then, if you look at the others, the car is still upshifting a couple times above 180 or so mph?! Somehow I don't think so. Something's seriously wrong with those videos IMO.

It's you. http://www.8thdaycreations.com/images/gothicaleigh/gothiwink.gif

Here is a high quality M6 vid set to see both the road and the speedometer. Also verified by GPS.
http://www.veoh.com/videos/v639565ktb2xdXn

Katshot
01-30-08, 12:45 PM
I'm not saying that a M6 WON'T do 200mph. I was simply saying that the videos provided were rather suspicious. When I heard a couple upshifts AFTER seeing the needle pass 180mph, I was smelling something fishy.
By your own data, I shouldn't have heard even ONE upshift at that speed.
Like I always tell my kid (and others), races, top speeds etc. are rather easy to fake on a video. For that reason, I consider them "entertainment" at best, certainly not documentation or data.

atdeneve
01-30-08, 02:57 PM
Those ratios are for a six speed manual. There was only one shift above 180. The Sequential Shift SMG has 7 gears. In the last of the three vids posted, you can actually see the gear selected in between the binnacles.

v84life
01-31-08, 12:40 AM
Lets see someone uncork the M5s computer and test it here in the US.....205 or even 211mph in a 4000lbs+sedan still seem like a tall order.Those Vids didn't prove anything ,we know nothing of the cars which were driven in those vids.

HiTechRV
02-02-08, 11:30 AM
Did not see but is it KPH? I made some funny vette videos in kph that look fast at first glance.

gothicaleigh
02-02-08, 02:19 PM
Did not see but is it KPH? I made some funny vette videos in kph that look fast at first glance.

Sure is. 332 kph (206.3 mph).

MacOSR
02-04-08, 01:19 AM
Huh? What M5 do you speak of? When the Gen I V was released, it was easily outlapping the M5 and had almost identical times to the M3. The only reason it wasn't faster is that Car and Driver was worried about the oil temp alarm that was inaccurate in the early models.

I've driven M5s. I've lapped some pretty serious machinery on the road courses myself. I suggest that if you want to critique the V vs. M5 handling, you know what you're talking about first.

And what does doing 130 for an hour have to do with handling?

I did own a CTS-V for a couple years. The CTS-V was my winter car (I don't drive the M5 in the winter). There is no comparison in the handling between the E60 M5 and the CTS-V (04-08). They are completely different cars with completely different target markets.

Driving the CTS-V at 130 for extended periods was work. Driving the M5 at 130 for extended periods is somewhat relaxing in comparison.

MacOSR
02-04-08, 01:21 AM
Lets see someone uncork the M5s computer and test it here in the US.....205 or even 211mph in a 4000lbs+sedan still seem like a tall order.Those Vids didn't prove anything ,we know nothing of the cars which were driven in those vids.

There are a few around in the US and they do go just over 200 when both limiters are removed.

2yearscounting
02-05-08, 05:50 PM
I have the say the new interior kicks the hell out of the last generation. I absolutely love the exterior of the "current", but the interior is very poor IMO. As much as I love the new interior, suspension, power, etc., I have to say the it looks much less aggressive. I wonder if aftermarket wheel options will be as limited as the current. I dunno, maybe I'll just get a C5 for now and save for the '09 V and buy a couple years old.

HiTechRV
02-06-08, 01:01 PM
No - 5 spoke wheels mean lots of options.

atdeneve
02-06-08, 02:26 PM
Five lug wheels.

Though there are a lot of 5 spoke options, too, I imagine.

Jon
02-06-08, 02:31 PM
The new CTS-V is going to smoke the M5 in any way possible. I have no doubt.

In fact, if the new CTS-V went off the end of a private airstrip, it would have cleared the trees that the M5 smashed into. ;)

(If you don't know what I'm talking about, read the news :D)

gothicaleigh
02-06-08, 03:53 PM
In fact, if the new CTS-V went off the end of a private airstrip, it would have cleared the trees that the M5 smashed into. ;)

:histeric:

HiTechRV
02-06-08, 09:49 PM
Five lug wheels.

Though there are a lot of 5 spoke options, too, I imagine.


LOL thanks. My bias for one spoke between each set of lugs is exposed.

M5eatr
02-09-08, 04:10 PM
I know that some of the kraut salons will obviously be envious and rightfully so. The only thing is that the bimmer guys may decide to put a huffer on the V10, which should make some insane power and then they will be one up. There will come a point where it will not be possible to use all the HP. Where are we headed, sub two second 0-60 times? It sure is a great time to be into these cars.

HITMONEY
02-09-08, 04:20 PM
I know that some of the kraut salons will obviously be envious and rightfully so. The only thing is that the bimmer guys may decide to put a huffer on the V10, which should make some insane power and then they will be one up. There will come a point where it will not be possible to use all the HP. Where are we headed, sub two second 0-60 times? It sure is a great time to be into these cars.


It is the sunset of an extremely fun era of cars.

The executioners name that will be responsible for killing the era.... CAFE.

Gettem while their hot!!

lawfive
02-09-08, 06:09 PM
Smoke 'em while you got 'em!

Katshot
02-09-08, 07:12 PM
It is the sunset of an extremely fun era of cars.

The executioners name that will be responsible for killing the era.... CAFE.

Gettem while their hot!!

I'm not sure CAFE is the one that will kill these cars. It sure will help, but insurance and ultimately my guess is extra taxes will get the best of these beasts.

CVP33
02-10-08, 01:09 AM
I'm not sure CAFE is the one that will kill these cars. It sure will help, but insurance and ultimately my guess is extra taxes will get the best of these beasts.

CAFE will kill it before cost of ownership issues. 35 mpg average across the product line by 2020 with our appetite for SUV's will take some creative engineering. No doubt it can be done, but not likely with high horsepower, pushrod V8's in the mix. It may take by 2015 or so, but we're all going to be seeing a lot more hybrids to hit these numbers.

Katshot
02-10-08, 11:19 AM
As long as it calls for an "average" across the lineup, it's still going to be a numbers game. Add more models with high MPG numbers, consolidate (shrink) the number of gas pigs....nothing new.
What will hurt is if they lock it down by stating that there must be a minimum MPG per model, or tying it to power ie: maintaining a minimum HP:MPG ratio.

CVP33
02-10-08, 12:14 PM
As long as it calls for an "average" across the lineup, it's still going to be a numbers game. Add more models with high MPG numbers, consolidate (shrink) the number of gas pigs....nothing new.
What will hurt is if they lock it down by stating that there must be a minimum MPG per model, or tying it to power ie: maintaining a minimum HP:MPG ratio.

That's was my point exactly, that it wouldn't be about insurance or cost of ownership issues. You're actually arguing my point now and not your original one in post #41. I agree it's a numbers game. But GM can't sell enough high MPG cars to offset it's sales in trucks and SUV's. It will take more than a "sell more small cars" strategy to get to 35mpg. All of it's cars will need to exceed 40mpg and it's trucks will need to approach 30mpg for the averages to work out. It doesn't leave much room for gas swilling sports sedans. GM still has a few tricks it can use with displacement on demand and direct fuel injection, but they'll have to layer on hybrid technology to mitigate the gap. I wouldn't mind a seamless operating turbo diesel/electric hybrid that could throw down 500/500 and get 35mpg. And I believe it can and will be done.

HiTechRV
02-10-08, 12:48 PM
I'm hoping that the Gen II or III V gets what the Camaro is rumored to have under consideration - a hybrid electric motor added to an LS motor. Doe right this gets the MPG needed and actually adds power.

ImAShakiraholic
02-11-08, 03:28 PM
the CTS is definatly the best sport luxury car.

Katshot
02-11-08, 09:43 PM
That's was my point exactly, that it wouldn't be about insurance or cost of ownership issues. You're actually arguing my point now and not your original one in post #41. I agree it's a numbers game. But GM can't sell enough high MPG cars to offset it's sales in trucks and SUV's. It will take more than a "sell more small cars" strategy to get to 35mpg. All of it's cars will need to exceed 40mpg and it's trucks will need to approach 30mpg for the averages to work out. It doesn't leave much room for gas swilling sports sedans. GM still has a few tricks it can use with displacement on demand and direct fuel injection, but they'll have to layer on hybrid technology to mitigate the gap. I wouldn't mind a seamless operating turbo diesel/electric hybrid that could throw down 500/500 and get 35mpg. And I believe it can and will be done.

My point was that it's a numbers game, but in a different way than you're thinking. How about this:
CAFE calls for a specific average across the model line, that's it. SO......
you restack the model line so you simply have more models that have high mileage. Doesn't matter how many you actually sell. Instead of having a GMC and Chevy pick-up you just have Chevy. Instead of having one or two models in each line that are econo-boxes, you expand and have several. Get it?
How do you figure Chrysler managed to bury the piss-poor MPG figures of the Viper and now all those SRT cars?

HITMONEY
02-11-08, 10:02 PM
If the car insurance bill was ever a deterent to owning a car that I truely wanted, then in turn, I truely couldn't afford the car in the first place.

Same goes for MPG.

It's a non-issue when you are shopping for a performance car... or at least it shouldn't be an issue. If it is, I hear there is great deals going on for Camry's.

;)

V-Love
02-12-08, 05:19 PM
If the car insurance bill was ever a deterent to owning a car that I truely wanted, then in turn, I truely couldn't afford the car in the first place.

Same goes for MPG.

It's a non-issue when you are shopping for a performance car... or at least it shouldn't be an issue. If it is, I hear there is great deals going on for Camry's.

;)

I completely agree.
And with all the oil issues and tree hugging going on these days, 550HP is insane for a car off the lot. I am going into heavy savings mode. Any educated guesses on release date???

v84life
02-13-08, 01:05 AM
Gimme, gimme...........

Mystical_Ice
02-15-08, 04:12 AM
why is it that a BMW M5, with a heavier weight, and a mere 100HP more than us, will do 40+ mph stock!?

i mean 200+ is no easy task. is 500HP what it takes to get there? whereas our 400HP stall out at 163?

yes i know gearing is an issue, but in 5th gear we creeeeeep up to 163... do you think better gearing will let us hit much higher numbers? what gives?

atdeneve
02-15-08, 11:38 AM
They do have an additional 2 gears of acceleration (for top speed purposes our sixth gear is a non-acceleration gear). Add to that the 100 hp. Gearing and power. What else you need? It should definitely fare better.

Even our heavy Vs would not fare as well as it does, in terms of acceleration, if it wasn't for the 3.73 final ratio. Gearing and power. Allows us to stick with or beat cars that either have similar power, but are significantly lighter (i.e., GTO) or have similar weight, but are significantly more powerful (i.e., GT500).

thebigjimsho
02-15-08, 07:55 PM
why is it that a BMW M5, with a heavier weight, and a mere 100HP more than us, will do 40+ mph stock!?

i mean 200+ is no easy task. is 500HP what it takes to get there? whereas our 400HP stall out at 163?

yes i know gearing is an issue, but in 5th gear we creeeeeep up to 163... do you think better gearing will let us hit much higher numbers? what gives?


They do have an additional 2 gears of acceleration (for top speed purposes our sixth gear is a non-acceleration gear). Add to that the 100 hp. Gearing and power. What else you need? It should definitely fare better.

Even our heavy Vs would not fare as well as it does, in terms of acceleration, if it wasn't for the 3.73 final ratio. Gearing and power. Allows us to stick with or beat cars that either have similar power, but are significantly lighter (i.e., GTO) or have similar weight, but are significantly more powerful (i.e., GT500).What you also have to take into account is how high each engine revs. The BMW gets to what, 8k rpm? We top out at 6500rpm. Engines tha can rev and make power up high are going to expand that gearing to a higher top speed. Heck, an SHO with 220hp and a 7000rpm redline can hit 145 in 5th gear...

NormV
02-15-08, 09:07 PM
Torque plays a big roll in top speed. Especially trq in upper rpm range and a broad span of it.

Look an E46 M3 with only 269 of trq from 3.2 liters that has a trap speed of about 105 MPH!

Torque: the gift that keeps giving!


Norm

atdeneve
02-18-08, 12:06 PM
That's an impressive trap speed for 'just' 269 ft-lbs. We may only fare a little bit better with our 395 ft-lbs. In fact, although, there are some with 107-109 trap speeds out there, many, if not most, seem to be just around that 105 (both over and under).

Katshot
02-19-08, 09:03 AM
You want to see how any particular engine will do at high speed, simply look at the torque curve. You want a top-end killer, just swap a cam into the LSA that's more top-end biased. Sure, you'll lose some bottom end grunt but...

MacOSR
02-19-08, 08:18 PM
why is it that a BMW M5, with a heavier weight, and a mere 100HP more than us, will do 40+ mph stock!?

i mean 200+ is no easy task. is 500HP what it takes to get there? whereas our 400HP stall out at 163?

yes i know gearing is an issue, but in 5th gear we creeeeeep up to 163... do you think better gearing will let us hit much higher numbers? what gives?

To understand this the best thing to do is take a look underneath an M5. It will show the detail the BMW has given every little item. The underside is extremely smooth and aerodynamic as well! I would imaging that BMW is getting a few MPH with this.

N8DOG
05-10-11, 12:55 PM
What qualifies as "fastest"?
12 secs in a straight line for 1320 ft, or a lap around Nurburgring with right and left handers, elevation changes, etc. . . . or both.

Just a question I have.

Both the CTS-V obviously beat both cars mentioned in a drag but also holds the fastest stock tire four door production car time on Nurburgring Nordschleife.

e6t
05-10-11, 01:20 PM
helluva bump DAWG.

whisler151
05-10-11, 01:29 PM
Both the CTS-V obviously beat both cars mentioned in a drag but also holds the fastest stock tire four door production car time on Nurburgring Nordschleife.

3 year old thread. :shhh:

wetcoast
05-10-11, 06:24 PM
Yup. The Panamera S and the 2011 STI have both topped the CTS-V since.

serturbo
05-10-11, 06:37 PM
The article I read said the STI was a prototype and the Panamera's time was unofficial.

wetcoast
05-10-11, 06:46 PM
Dunno

http://www.zercustoms.com/news/2011-Subaru-STI-Sedan-Nurburgring-Record.html

http://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-news/porsche-panamera-laps-nurburgring-in-7-56-ar76670.html

ChicagoV
05-10-11, 06:54 PM
The article I read said the STI was a prototype and the Panamera's time was unofficial.

The Subaru folks have a history of running non-production STI's to their records at the 'Ring. From tires on up, there are quite a few differences.

JimmyH
05-10-11, 07:37 PM
Why so much interest in 'ring times? You guys want a Panamera or an STi? The V kills both those cars in style and class. And it kills one in value and the other in luxury.

wetcoast
05-10-11, 07:39 PM
Why so much interest in 'ring times? You guys want a Panamera or an STi? The V kills both those cars in style and class. And it kills one in value and the other in luxury.

I guess because the thread is titled "The Fastest four-door sedan in the world"
and not

"The most stylist sedan" or "The classiest sedan" :hmm:

JimmyH
05-10-11, 07:45 PM
I have asked, and asked, and asked, and asked, and asked what is so special about 'ring times. The answers basically translate to "because it's the Nurburgring." It's just a closed course halfway around the world. If BMW and all the car rags they have in their pocket didn't give it so much attention, no one would care about the 'ring and who got around it the fastest with xxxxx tires, at xxxx ambient temperature and xxxxx ambient barometric pressure.

wetcoast
05-10-11, 07:48 PM
I think it's because they don't change the course from car to car. It's a baseline for measurement. They wanted to emulate the European testing methods to migrate European handling to the Caddy. I think it handles more like a euro than an American.

The title was supposed to also qualify times as production vehicles which means anything other than what would be delivered to a dealership wouldn't qualify. It surprises me that the Subie would put slicks on and call it a production vehicle.

JimmyH
05-10-11, 07:58 PM
It just seems to me that almost everyone wants to measure a cars complete performance quotient by its nurburgring time. And I don't buy that. To me, there is much, much more to a performance car than how fast it can negotiate a road course.

wetcoast
05-10-11, 08:01 PM
More measurements than time around a track..... hmmmmmm shall we consider looks too? Like this one?

http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/attachments/mustang-lounge/26466d1176751813-post-funny-rice-car-pictures-ricer-48377.jpg

IGotId
05-10-11, 10:30 PM
More measurements than time around a track..... hmmmmmm shall we consider looks too? Like this one?

http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/attachments/mustang-lounge/26466d1176751813-post-funny-rice-car-pictures-ricer-48377.jpg

that thing is hot! :p

JimmyH
05-10-11, 10:32 PM
needs moar burnt exhaust tip

thebigjimsho
05-10-11, 11:47 PM
A mildly modded V will destroy any Panamera from a roll.