Which one do you think will be faster. The Tiptronic porsche turbo is supposedly faster than the 6-speed. So is it possible that the automatic V wil be faster than the manual?

I expect the auto to be in the same ballpark as the stick, but not faster. Keep in mind that the V is using an auto with torque converter, it isn't a dual clutch system. The dual clutch systems like they're being used in VWs and Audi's shift faster than a human can shift in a stick and can be used both in auto as well as manual shifting modes. Compare that to the paddle shift auto option available in the C6 Corvette (also regular slushbox with torque converter) which is slower than the manual.

Even though there will always be diehards that will swear by a stick the world is moving to dual clutch or even more exotic systems. The first generation of dual clutch systems couldn't handle a whole lot of torque, but now the Nissan GT-R (430 lb-ft) and the BMW M3 (295 lb-ft) will also come with dual clutch systems.

I'm assuming that GM is working very hard on also being able to offer a dual clutch box for their high performance cars. On the M3 the 0-60 time is 0.2s faster than the stick and the 0-100 time is .45s faster! The whole system only weighs an extra 44lbs. It would be a great future model year (2010?) option for the V.

The auto has a shot at being faster but it may be tough to put all that power down with such a ridiculous 1st gear ratio.

I'm driving the '08 CTS and the auto is fast, and it rev matches on the downshifts. Even if I don't due true manual mode, the sport option is very smart. When I hit the brakes before a turn it down shifts and it holds the gear for a very long time under part throttle comming out of a turn. I would assume that the auto in the V will shift even faster, and I know they recently improved the speed of the auto in the '08 C6.

manual trans is going to become a lost art.

Quote: "manual trans is going to become a lost art" They stopped making manual in the Ferrari F430 (for U.S) because customers had a preference for paddle shift....

When you consider driver reactions the auto might just be faster.

Manuals are going away. They already left F-1 and Champ series and Ferrari is dumping them as someone mentioned.

If the final is the same ratio as was stated in another thread, I predict the stick will be slightly faster unless the individual gears are radically steeper in the auto. But the wild card is the launch control. An auto will allow the ECU more degrees of feedom than a manual so it is possible the auto could be quicker in the 60'.

I LOVE the way a manual involves me in driving my cars so it'll be a manual for me if the price isn't outrageous.

I LOVE the way a manual involves me in driving my cars so it'll be a manual for me if the price isn't outrageous.

Driving a paddle-shifted car is quite engaging, as well. I can't decide which I would get...

If the final is the same ratio as was stated in another thread, I predict the stick will be slightly faster unless the individual gears are radically steeper in the auto. But the wild card is the launch control. An auto will allow the ECU more degrees of feedom than a manual so it is possible the auto could be quicker in the 60'.

The trannies 1st gear ratio is different though. The first gear in the auto looks a lot steeper if that wasn't a misprint on Cadillac's site.

Gear Auto Manual
1st 4.02 2.66
2nd 2.36 1.78
3rd 1.53 1.30
4th 1.15 1.00
5th .85 .80
6th .63 .67

The Auto will need to shift at higher RPM to avoid bogging with those grand canyon wide gear splits.
I suppose it will depend on if the 09V maintains high RPM torque as it pulls those extra revs.
Also, the torque management (reduction) during shifting could be a factor as well.

My prediction is the auto will launch well but bog on the 2-3 shift.
I'm also sure torque management (reduction) will take place on the 1-2 shift (but that's probably a good thing).

The stick has much better ratios and should pull like mad with every shift.
I think the stick with a good driver should win.

Wow I love those wide ratios. Well suited to a little power adding.

I wonder if the auto and manual have the same cam. Those ratio differences would lead me to think not. Any idea what the torque converter stall speed is?

The Auto will need to shift at higher RPM to avoid bogging with those grand canyon wide gear splits.
I suppose it will depend on if the 09V maintains high RPM torque as it pulls those extra revs.
Also, the torque management (reduction) during shifting could be a factor as well.

My prediction is the auto will launch well but bog on the 2-3 shift.
I'm also sure torque management (reduction) will take place on the 1-2 shift (but that's probably a good thing).

The stick has much better ratios and should pull like mad with every shift.
I think the stick with a good driver should win.

based on your current ride (which must flat out fly, by the way) you know much more of the mechanics than me. That said..it is rare to see a stick beat an auto, in the same model, on the street. I think it is hard for most drivers to shift as good as the computer...

thoughts?

based on your current ride (which must flat out fly, by the way) you know much more of the mechanics than me. That said..it is rare to see a stick beat an auto, in the same model, on the street. I think it is hard for most drivers to shift as good as the computer...

thoughts?

The biggest challenge for the stick driver is the launch.
But yes a missed shift will kill the run too. :thepan:

The other problem for stick guys is having someone get the jump on them (from a roll) when they are in the wrong gear.
:rant2:

A good driver (on a good surface) could get the 09V stick to launch as well as the auto and with 100 less pounds and a blistering 2-3 shift I think the stick will take the win.
Yes the stick driver has his work cut out for him, but that's what racing is all about and how a driver earns his money.

The auto is going to drop too many revs on the 2-3 shift and I don't see where it can make it back up.
The auto would need to pull out a big lead on the launch or it will get beat.

I don't think anyone disputes that the Auto is toast when it comes to a road course. :)

The biggest challenge for the stick driver is the launch.
But yes a missed shift will kill the run too. :thepan:

The other problem for stick guys is having someone get the jump on them (from a roll) when they are in the wrong gear.
:rant2:

A good driver (on a good surface) could get the 09V stick to launch as well as the auto and with 100 less pounds and a blistering 2-3 shift I think the stick will take the win.
Yes the stick driver has his work cut out for him, but that's what racing is all about and how a driver earns his money.

The auto is going to drop too many revs on the 2-3 shift and I don't see where it can make it back up.
The auto would need to pull out a big lead on the launch or it will get beat.

I don't think anyone disputes that the Auto is toast when it comes to a road course. :)


no doubt on the road course... thanks..great answer . I often wonder about that difference in gears and how a good driver gets so much more pull with the stick.

The biggest challenge for the stick driver is the launch.
But yes a missed shift will kill the run too. :thepan:

The other problem for stick guys is having someone get the jump on them (from a roll) when they are in the wrong gear.
:rant2:

A good driver (on a good surface) could get the 09V stick to launch as well as the auto and with 100 less pounds and a blistering 2-3 shift I think the stick will take the win.
Yes the stick driver has his work cut out for him, but that's what racing is all about and how a driver earns his money.

The auto is going to drop too many revs on the 2-3 shift and I don't see where it can make it back up.
The auto would need to pull out a big lead on the launch or it will get beat.

I don't think anyone disputes that the Auto is toast when it comes to a road course. :)


no doubt on the road course... thanks..great answer . I often wonder about that difference in gears and how a good driver gets so much more pull with the stick.

I think eventually the auto will beat the manual on the road courses also because it almost eliminates driver's error and a computer still has faster reflexes then a human. That is why a lot of race cars are now going to semi manuals.

TM will probably eliminate any excessive power on launching or when accelerating. It will come down to how much grip your tires can provide. Start slipping and it doesn't mattter what tranny you have, TM will get involved.

There are certainly examples of automatic versions of cars that are both quicker 0-60 and 1/4 mile (Pontiac GTO) AND can turn better lap times on road courses (Taurus SHO) so only time will tell just how good a job the engineers did setting up the automatic. Bottom line, the auto CAN be superior to a stick but IMO it takes away from what the car's about. Personally, I would NEVER buy a sports car (or "sporting" car) that didn't have a manual, regardless of whether the automatic was faster. Just doesn't "feel" right to me. Besides, then it means that ANYBODY can drive it fast, and what's with that?:thehand:

I'm surprised no one has brought this up already, but here goes. It can be said that GM sure does know how to make one heck of an auto transmission, as can be seen in the above mentioned GTO and Vettes for that matter.
The automatic equipped vehicles are advertised as "quicker" in terms of 0-60 and quarter mile times.

What I look for, is not the quarter mile times or 0-60 numbers, but I actually favor the higher trap speed (mph). The mph at the end of the quarter always shows a vehicles power. I could care less if this 2009 Caddy can produce an 11 sec. time slip (although it just might). I want to see a trap speed close to 120mph or higher!

If you compare the LS2 GTO's automatic versus manual, you will see that the manual vehicles are usually trapping 2-3 mph more even if they don't "hook" or lauch like an auto can. Guess what happens when that automatic and manual actually run from a "roll" (don't bring up the B.S. that a real race is from a "dig".) Since the manual "traps" higher, it should pull on the auto. That's why I'll take mine with a manual.:)

Racing from a punch is a VERY tricky thing to predict, especially since gear ratios and trans downshifts will make or break the outcome. Like it or not, unless you're already in the lower gear and tach'd up and ready, the automatic will usually be able to downshift and scoot away faster than you could even downshift your manual. Face it, technology has caught up with us on this one. Manuals are a thing of the past. They no longer provide the ultimate in performance. Now they really only offer old-school guys the pleasure of interactive driving. That's ok, I can deal with that.

+1.....

While I'm a huge fan of the dual clutch sequential transmission and I'd buy a GM product with it...I'd buy a CTS V with the torque convertor vs the manual. I believe the automatic would better suit my needs for the street.

which will be faster at the track? the torque convertor automatic vs the manual? I think the et will be quicker with the automatic.. the trap speed with the manual with an expert driver will be faster..

On a road course? The experienced driver will be faster with the manual...and the less experienced will be faster with the automatic..

Fastest overall? would be a dual clutch sequential transmission.

Lauch control PTM might make the CTS automatic and manaul equal in acceleration.

PTM is the wave of the future in either a manual or automatic..equalizing and maximizing performance .

The new PTM feature is designed to improve lap times by regulating torque delivery to the rear wheels. Thus it works more like a race car's traction control than the safety systems we see on most production cars. A form of launch control is said to be included.

only pussies drive autos...

but seriously, I love choosing my own gear so manual it is for me... Paddles, etc is NOT the same... You have to transition through gears to get to a lower gear, there is no Skipping gears. And if the 09V auto is anything like the STS-V was, then its AUTO all the way. The STS-V manumatic was really lame.

I give GM credit for building the auto because people who drive traffic daily or have bad knees will buy one (and thats ok), but if you are healthy then the manual will be better...

with features like no-lift manual speed shift, and all the PTM stuff, Im betting that the Manual and the Auto will be about the same speed 0-60, but I am betting that Heinricy (or a good driver) in the manual will kick the Auto's ass anyday in the twisties.

Reed

Here's an interior shot with the manual.:)

Mercedes just announced the new SL63 AMG with a 7-speed dual clutch transmission. All major players are coming out with dual clutch transmissions. GM is going to have to step up and start offering these for their high performance cars as well. As stated before the answer has always been current dual clutch technology can't deal with the enormous amount of torque that the Corvette Z06, ZR1 and Cadillac CTS-V have on tap, but the SL63 pretty much has as much torque as the Z06 (SL63 has 465 lb-ft of torque, Z06 has 470).

I'm sure dual clutch transmissions are in GM's future plans, but they might have to speed it up. Does anybody have any hard info on this?

Driven by an experienced driver in production stock vehicles traditionally the manual is faster at the drag strip and the road course. Toays technology makes the automatic almost equal to that very experienced driver in a manual tranny.

The wild card seems to be the dual clutch sequential shifter. That would be my choice.

Check out this months article on the Evo X in both stick shift an DSG variations and how they compare to the more powerful STI manual at the drag strip and the road course.

I'd say that pretty much sums up the comparision for these various technologies..

Another interesting and telling road test would be the automatic CTS V vs. the manual CTS V both at the drag strip and the road course.

For some reason GM wouldn't allow (Low mileage supposedly) the corvette Z51 to be tested by motor trend with the two vehicles being a manual and then an automatic.. at the drag strip and road course.

Hopefully gm will offer the magazines one of each at the same time for this age old question to be answered.

Mercedes just announced the new SL63 AMG with a 7-speed dual clutch transmission. All major players are coming out with dual clutch transmissions. GM is going to have to step up and start offering these for their high performance cars as well. As stated before the answer has always been current dual clutch technology can't deal with the enormous amount of torque that the Corvette Z06, ZR1 and Cadillac CTS-V have on tap, but the SL63 pretty much has as much torque as the Z06 (SL63 has 465 lb-ft of torque, Z06 has 470).

I'm sure dual clutch transmissions are in GM's future plans, but they might have to speed it up. Does anybody have any hard info on this?

I applaud Mercedes for moving in this direction yet I can't find any information about it anyway.

Can you please give me a link or a place to read about this.

Thanks

JB

Here's the link for the Mercedes info:
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/02/08/officially-official-mercedes-benz-unveils-2009-sl63-and-sl65-am/

only pussies drive autos...


Reed

YEAH! :highfive:

I guess a lot of race car drivers are pussies then since a majority of the series are going to semiautos and being quicker in the process. I believe you can only get the Enzo in auto also.

I have bad joints so I don't have a choice. Rowing through gears gets tedious IMO. Maybe if I had good joints then I would think different but then again I would still have my V right now also.

I guess a lot of race car drivers are pussies then since a majority of the series are going to semiautos and being quicker in the process. I believe you can only get the Enzo in auto also.

I have bad joints so I don't have a choice. Rowing through gears gets tedious IMO. Maybe if I had good joints then I would think different but then again I would still have my V right now also.
If you watched 24 Hours of Daytona, those guys were shifting (sequential manual gear boxes).
That's keeping it real and for long stints to boot. :thumbsup:
Compare that to posers whining about having to shift in traffic. :rolleyes:

If you must have the convenience of a paddle shifter at least go with a SMG (sequential manual gearshift) system that gets rid of the inefficient torque converter in a slush box. A SMG retains the clutch but does all of the clutch activation and shifting automatically by wire in milliseconds. Formula 1 racecars use it. You can adjust the shifting operation smoothness to suit the conditions.

Here's the link for the Mercedes info:
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/02/08/officially-official-mercedes-benz-unveils-2009-sl63-and-sl65-am/


Thank you very much for the link. Thats the coolest news on the transmission front I've read in a long time.

I would want a car with that transmission without a doubt..

MCT Transmission – The Best of Both Worlds

Providing the direct feedback of a manual transmission with the total convenience of an automatic, the new seven-speed MCT with AMG Speedshift is an all-new design available only in the new SL63 AMG. Featuring seven speeds, four shift modes and a double-clutching function, the MCT transmission offers impressive versatility and even faster shift times.

At the heart of the new AMG Speedshift MCT seven-speed sports transmission is a new start-up clutch, which runs in an oil bath and replaces a conventional torque converter. Thanks to its low rotational mass, the start-up clutch helps the transmission respond instantaneously and dynamically with no slip.

Fitted with four drive modes: "C" (Comfort), "S" (Sport), "S+" (Sport plus) and "M" (Manual), the transmission provides customized shift control for maximum driving pleasure, and does so with no interruption of power. In Comfort mode, smooth shifts coupled with a "soft" accelerator response are set up for silky smooth power transfer. In Sport mode, the engine and transmission interact quicker – upshifts and downshifts take place at higher engine speed. Gearshifts are around 20 percent faster than in Comfort mode. Switching to the Sport Plus mode cuts another 20 percent off shift times, while the sportiest mode, Manual, reduces shifting times by another 10 percent – a total reduction of 50 percent compared with Comfort mode. In Manual mode, the gearshifts take just 100 milliseconds.

Ultra-fast, spontaneous multiple downshifts are another forte of the new MCT sports transmission. For instance, kickdown will shift directly from seventh down to fourth gear or from fifth to second. In the "S" (Sport), "S+" (Sport plus) and "M" (Manual) modes, an automatic double-clutching function is active. Every manual or automatic downshift is accompanied by precisely metered double-clutching – from "S" through "S+" to "M" incrementally. Not only does double-clutching make driving more fun, but virtually load-free downshifting minimizes any jerking, a special benefit when braking into a curve.

is there any possibility that GM will put in an SMG type auto tran before the V's release? Or is the Paddle shift w/ torque converter definite?

Here are some schematics/photos of the BMW SMG system. Not for do-it-yourself installers.

Larger pics.

GM's tranny is a torque convertor automatic which can be fantastic performer too..

Its just the DSG type MB is using is more direct.. and faster shifting..

The real key is not the speed of the shift but rather not having the torque convertor truly gives a much more direct "FEEL" that so many enthusiasts crave..

I agree with many that the direct feeling a manual offers is superior to most torque convertor automatics...NO matter how fast they are...No matter how intuitive their computers are..

The DSG supercedes the issues because its a direct linkage in much the same way the manual trannys are..

Thats my facination with the DSG from GM..

Hopefully one day the general will move on it..

Personally I think it will be a long time because GM makes world class leading automatics with torque convertors..

Harder to revolutionize when your already tops in the field of the torque convertor automatics..

Unfortunate because being the worlds best automatic transmission manufacturer/supplier keeps GM from evolving to DSG which is a better technological piece.

A good comparison is the '05-'06 GTO A4 vs. M6. pontiac actually quoted a .1 sec quicker 0-60 time on the A4.
Both A4 and M6 had a 3.46 gear. Granted the A4 is old school but it tells you how good the A4s are for repeatibility on the dragstrip.
9 out of the 10 fastest cars at the strip on ls2gto.com are A4s-when compared with identical mods.
There are a couple of guys on that site, who are really proficient at shifting can hang/beat an A4.

I personally pefer the M6 is my '06 GTO because of the involvement, and not being caught in the dead spot when running from a roll.

In the new CTS-V I would go auto.

I LOVE the way a manual involves me in driving my cars so it'll be a manual for me if the price isn't outrageous.

only pussies drive autos...Reed

If you watched 24 Hours of Daytona, those guys were shifting (sequential manual gear boxes).
That's keeping it real and for long stints to boot. :thumbsup:
Compare that to posers whining about having to shift in traffic. :rolleyes:
I guess I'm a poser who whines about having to shift in traffic. I'll bet that if I watched 24 hours of Daytona I'd have seen guys downshifting for control in the corners and upshifting to go really f u c king fast. Nothing to whine about there. Contrast that with me shifting for revs between 1MPH and 35MPH and 5MPH and 25MPH and 0MPH (continue ad nauseum) for an hour on Los Angeles freeways while I stress about getting to the airport on time. Fun factor = zero.

I suspect that if I get a 2010 V as a daily driver, it'll be an auto. If I get it for the weekends, it'll be a stick. If I can swing keeping rather than trading in the maggied 2005 V, then for sure the 2010 V will be an auto.

Maybe I'll get a vanity plate that says "POSER."

I guess I'm a poser who whines about having to shift in traffic. I'll bet that if I watched 24 hours of Daytona I'd have seen guys downshifting for control in the corners and upshifting to go really f u c king fast. Nothing to whine about there. Contrast that with me shifting for revs between 1MPH and 35MPH and 5MPH and 25MPH and 0MPH (continue ad nauseum) for an hour on Los Angeles freeways while I stress about getting to the airport on time. Fun factor = zero.

I suspect that if I get a 2010 V as a daily driver, it'll be an auto. If I get it for the weekends, it'll be a stick. If I can swing keeping rather than trading in the maggied 2005 V, then for sure the 2010 V will be an auto.

Maybe I'll get a vanity plate that says "POSER."

You sound like a pefect candidate for a SMG transmission. Then your plate only needs to read: "SEMI-POSER"

Hah. Better still: "HEMI-POSER"