: What GM should do to improve the 2009 CTS-V before final release



Dr Chill
01-09-08, 10:55 PM
1) Lower the car by 1 1/2 inches (height now listed as same as base CTS)
2) Front spoiler extension
3) Improve that bodykit
4) Standard bluetooth interface
5) Shed 100 lbs (at least)




Please GM listen.

neuronbob
01-09-08, 11:55 PM
What, and give us nothing to mod? :D I'm sure someone will make lowering springs or a coilover for this car.

Seriously, the main thing needed is BT. I can't live without the integrated handsfree in my current car. I personally don't want to pay Verizon for the use of the OnStar phone.

Jon
01-10-08, 12:30 AM
1. Re-do the front cause it looks so damn ricey.
2. Bet rid of that chrome.
3. Send one to me for testing.

v84life
01-10-08, 12:44 AM
Price it under 70k the rest I'll change myself this is a keeper.........

theformer
01-10-08, 12:48 AM
I'm not sure about lowering it any further. The front fascia on the '08 scrapes more than my '06 V. Any lower, and you'll be constantly plowing asphalt.

Weight loss is what I would really be looking for. 4,200lbs?!? The current gen V rolls in at about 3,550 lbs. 150 extra HP isn't that compelling when you weight 700lbs more.

BT would be nice, but GM seems to have some sort of mental block...

v84life
01-10-08, 01:01 AM
I thought our cars were about 3800lbs:hmm: Still heavy at 4200 no doubt

Nutz
01-10-08, 01:25 AM
1. Make sure the new cast iron rear (if stronger) fits in both the new and old cars!!!

2. Provide a spare tire

3. Make the Valentine 1 Radar detector standard equiptment!

4. Move the Tach to the right of center in dash.

5. Heads up display

6. Offer significant discount to old V owners looking to trade in for new V.

Dr Chill
01-10-08, 07:45 AM
Absolutely needs a spare tire as standard. BT is a must on a $60,000 + car. Still favor lowering and a rubber airdam extension/protector.

ylwjacket
01-10-08, 08:57 AM
GM's release said "factory-installed Bluetooth capability". Is that something different than what you guys want? I assumed that meant full integration with the speakers, etc., for BT phones.

lonestranger
01-10-08, 10:23 AM
They could shed some much unneeded weight by dropping that "dual mass" flywheel" otherwise we will still have the same old "clunk -Clunk" from the drive train - the "parade clunk" don't ya know??:D Obviously, GM still refuses to learn from experience!!!:lildevil: Fortunately what with the RV cam they are putting in the V version of the LSA, there is probably a quick 50HP to be had with a "stick change".

Kadonny
01-10-08, 10:38 AM
4) Standard bluetooth interface



I thought I read it was going to have standard bt.

trukk
01-10-08, 11:30 AM
1. Make sure the new cast iron rear (if stronger) fits in both the new and old cars!!!

2. Provide a spare tire

3. Make the Valentine 1 Radar detector standard equiptment!

4. Move the Tach to the right of center in dash.

5. Heads up display

6. Offer significant discount to old V owners looking to trade in for new V.

You'll get none of that and (not) like it.


They could shed some much unneeded weight by dropping that "dual mass" flywheel" otherwise we will still have the same old "clunk -Clunk" from the drive train - the "parade clunk" don't ya know??:D Obviously, GM still refuses to learn from experience!!!:lildevil: Fortunately what with the RV cam they are putting in the V version of the LSA, there is probably a quick 50HP to be had with a "stick change".

Dual mass flywheel is assinine. Also I don't think you are gonna get much with a camshaft swap, in a blown application. Hell getting 50 in an LS6/LS2 is hard to do without going very high duration / tight LSA. You just can't do that in a forced induction car (without loosing as ass load of boost).

I predict on of the first major mods to this car will be a plus sized crank pulley, to up the boost, since it sounds like making the SC pulley small will be very difficult.

-Chris

tweeter81
01-10-08, 12:01 PM
I'm not sure about lowering it any further. The front fascia on the '08 scrapes more than my '06 V. Any lower, and you'll be constantly plowing asphalt.

Weight loss is what I would really be looking for. 4,200lbs?!? The current gen V rolls in at about 3,550 lbs. 150 extra HP isn't that compelling when you weight 700lbs more.

BT would be nice, but GM seems to have some sort of mental block...

The current gen Vs weigh in @ 3850 lbs + (17.5 gal tank / gasoline is 6 lbs/gallon = 105 lbs) + (180 lbs average male's weight) = 4135 lbs

So, the grand total weight of the current Vs with a full tank of gas and driver is less than what the new V will be dry.

Some more math (and this goes along with this thread because I think GM should put the 09 V on a diet).

Current V = 405 hp (395 tq) @ 3850 lb = 1:9.506 power to weight ratio
(which means that every 1 hp carries 9.506 lbs)
2009 V = 550 hp (550 tq) @ 4200 lb = 1:7.636 power to weight ratio
(which means that every 1 hp carries 7.636 lbs)

Although, now that I have written this out, I am pretty impressed. The smaller the number, the better. But we also have to take into consideration weight distribution, etc. to see if it will really out-perform the current generation in every category and be worth all the extra cash.

Me Wanna A V
01-10-08, 01:18 PM
This vehicle needs one important change:

FORGED PISTONS!!!!!!!!:rant2:

Cadillac Tony
01-10-08, 02:57 PM
Bluetooth is standard, as already noted.

Spare tire won't happen, as the tub in the trunk is too small and the car is already a bit overweight.

The dual mass flywheel isn't the culprit of the current gen clunking- that's sloppy rear diff bushings and driveshaft. I put a single piece, lightweight FW in my current CTS-V and am not sure I'd do it again. The car does rev a little quicker, but the extra rotational inertia gives a nice bit of "oomph" on shifts that is now gone.

VelocitySTSV
01-10-08, 08:09 PM
How about electronic fold in mirrors, rear backup camera's, frontal parking sensors, and a blue tooth system capable of downloading your address book..All standard in higher end imports. I would love to see it.

CVP33
01-11-08, 12:17 AM
Wheelie bars damnit! What were you thinking GM?! :banghead:

onebadcad
01-11-08, 12:29 AM
Wheelie bars damnit! What were you thinking GM?! :banghead:

Wheelie bars would shred the rear parachutes, s, as in multiple:lildevil:.

v84life
01-11-08, 12:46 AM
What is the weight of the competition? M5 ,E63, RS6, am I missing any....? Does anybody have that handy?:cool:

austin
01-11-08, 02:02 AM
My only request.... Make the NAV hackable to play movies (for passenger enjoyment only of course) while you drive!! :)

theformer
01-11-08, 03:34 AM
2008 BMW M5 MT -> 4,012 lbs
2008 Mercedes AMG E63 -> 4,035 lbs
2007 Audi S6 AT -> 4,486 lbs (couldn't find the RS6)
2009 BMW M3 MT -> 3,649 lbs
2007 Audi RS4 MT -> 3,957 lbs

I would have liked to add the C63 as well but couldn't find that listed anywhere. The C350 rolls at 3,527 lbs.

Incidentally, I got the 3,509 lbs for the previous gen CTS from http://www.cadillac.com/cadillacjsp/model/po_specification.jsp?model=ctsv&year=2007. My understanding of curb weight is that includes standard operating equipment...

moldowan
01-11-08, 03:51 AM
What is the weight of the competition? M5 ,E63, RS6, am I missing any....? Does anybody have that handy?:cool:

rs6 avant- 4,464.4
E63 amg- 4,035
cls63- 4,199.8
e60 M5- 4,310
-Moldy- 205lbs

Black Majick
01-11-08, 12:34 PM
This vehicle needs one important change:

FORGED PISTONS!!!!!!!!:rant2:

I was curious about that myself. I'm wondering, and hoping, that was a typo in the press release as the info on the LS9 in the ZR1 states that there are forged slugs installed in it. I also noticed a 0.1 difference in the compression ratio listed between the LS9 and LSA. I've read many a publication from the general that were laden with typo's, so I wouldn't get too worried until the final stats are released.

pietroraimondi
01-11-08, 02:12 PM
What, and give us nothing to mod? :D I'm sure someone will make lowering springs or a coilover for this car..

The standard Magnetic Ride Shock suspension (RPO F550) will make lowering the vehicle all but virtually impossible unless you completely remove an otherwise $3000 stellar suspension system.


I was curious about that myself. I'm wondering, and hoping, that was a typo in the press release as the info on the LS9 in the ZR1 states that there are forged slugs installed in it. I also noticed a 0.1 difference in the compression ratio listed between the LS9 and LSA. I've read many a publication from the general that were laden with typo's, so I wouldn't get too worried until the final stats are released.

The pistons in the LSA are cast aluminum. The LSA engine is an otherwise LS3 2008 C6 engine with the GM OEM Eaton sourced 1900 series 4 lobe positive displacement supercharger.

The LSA and LS3 are both rated at a maximum of 650 BHP with its stock internal rotating assembly.

onebadcad
01-11-08, 03:16 PM
2008 BMW M5 MT -> 4,012 lbs
2008 Mercedes AMG E63 -> 4,035 lbs
2007 Audi S6 AT -> 4,486 lbs (couldn't find the RS6)
2009 BMW M3 MT -> 3,649 lbs
2007 Audi RS4 MT -> 3,957 lbs

I would have liked to add the C63 as well but couldn't find that listed anywhere. The C350 rolls at 3,527 lbs.

Incidentally, I got the 3,509 lbs for the previous gen CTS from http://www.cadillac.com/cadillacjsp/model/po_specification.jsp?model=ctsv&year=2007. My understanding of curb weight is that includes standard operating equipment...

Curb weight=the weight of a fueled automobile with standard equipment but without cargo or passengers

Saw two sites for C63 weight, one was 'roughly' 3,800lbs, the other was 3,815lbs, either one is less than the V.

CVP33
01-11-08, 06:41 PM
My only request.... Make the NAV hackable to play movies (for passenger enjoyment only of course) while you drive!! :)

Pop up porn?

veloce
01-15-08, 05:04 PM
Forged pistons for added saftey margin. HD Radio so you don't have to do Sat Radio . Jeff

NIK
01-15-08, 05:16 PM
Price it under 70k the rest I'll change myself this is a keeper.........

Until the next "something new." - I love my '05 and will drive it 'til the wheels fall off !!

Katshot
01-15-08, 08:47 PM
I for one am tired of hearing people whine about the lack of "forged pistons". Why on God's green earth does the CTS-V need them? No question they're stronger but so are several other items that GM cut on the CTS-V parts list. Personally, I think it's just that the buzz word "forged" gets so many non-professionals so warm and fuzzy that they'd vote for virtually ANYTHING on the car being "forged". Problem is, they'd also be the same people whining about the high sticker price of the car if GM didn't make cost-cutting (within reason) a fact of life on this car.
Overall, I think the car is a huge step forward from the gen. 1 CTS-V (which by the way was a great car in it's own right), and a VERY risky move for GM considering the current state of our economy and the automotive industry as a whole. Hell, as weak as the dollar is, they should be marketing the car mainly toward the export buyers.

Me Wanna A V
01-15-08, 10:07 PM
Katshot:

Since I'm the one who pretty much highlighted this "issue" to everyone on this forum, let me try to defend my opinion as to why "I" feel this vehicle "needs" "Forged pistons".

On my old 1995 Cobra I decided to add a Vortech supercharger to my car which already was making 306 rwhp with heads and cam. (Stay with me now- this was back in 1997, so 306 rwhp on that car equated to a 109.32 mph in the 1/4 mile and plenty fast for it's time). Anyways, after putting on the blower and making 480 @ the wheels, guess how long my motor lasted with the stock HYPEREUTECTIC PISTONS! How about 5 months! Yes, it had a custom tune, but there comes a time when the internals "need" to be better.

After melting two pistons, I had to spend $ for a new short block. Did I put hyper pistons back in the new block? NO! I spent the EXTRA (I don't know the amount off hand) money for Forged Pistons. Now it kills me when people are suggesting that GM did this as a cost cutting reason. What? Or better yet, forged pistons are louder and they wouldn't want that added noise in a Cadillac. Come on, give me a break. You know how loud a motor is when the pistons melt?:thehand:

mole177
01-15-08, 10:11 PM
Let waranty take care of the melted pistons ? how hard did you run your cobra?

Me Wanna A V
01-15-08, 11:09 PM
Let waranty take care of the melted pistons ? how hard did you run your cobra?

As far as warranty, I want you to remember this post and see what happens with these cars and catastrophic engine failures! I promise you, Cadillac will be kicking themselves in the ass. Honestly, it probably would only cost GM $500 per vehicle to "upgrade" to forged pistons. I'm sure the end consumer would be more than willing to pay for that.

As for my Cobra, most of my buddies would tell you that I drove it like a grandma. However, I was racing another Stang that was on spray when my car started smoking like it was on fire. The car did trap 121 mph before the motor went bye-bye.

The new motor (with FORGED PISTONS) was a 347ci that ended up making 609rwhp. I sold it last February.

verbs
01-16-08, 01:40 AM
I for one am tired of hearing people whine about the lack of "forged pistons". Why on God's green earth does the CTS-V need them?

Because many V owners are going to want to mod their cars, and it would have been nice of them to keep us enthusiasts in mind. It's nice having more margin for error and modding capabilities. I'd pay an extra $500 in a heartbeat and deal with the extra noise over a cast piston.....Getting forged slugs after the fact is going to cost THOUSANDS.

OldRoadDawg
01-16-08, 10:59 AM
The question is: What GM should do to improve the 2009 CTS-V before final release?

How about plugging a TechII into all... er... most of the Service Managers/Service Writers heads.
Then reflashing their brains . . . instructing them that Cadillac is selling a 'high performance' vehicle.

The newly programmed service personnel will now respond in a positive 'we'll get it taken care of' mode.
The old response 'You're abusing the vehicle. Not covered under warranty' will be deleted.
(reflash will not be applicable to Lindsay and selected other dealerships)

Just a thought, since Lutz is touting the GenII V as the "fastest sedan in the world".

Who knows... maybe all these re-programmed SM's will even treat the GenI V owners with some respect.



Yeah. You're right. Not gonna happen.

Mystical_Ice
01-16-08, 12:52 PM
what i'm looking forward to, is exhaust, pulley change, and tune, and adding 50+rwhp to it right there :)

Katshot
01-16-08, 09:13 PM
Katshot:

Since I'm the one who pretty much highlighted this "issue" to everyone on this forum, let me try to defend my opinion as to why "I" feel this vehicle "needs" "Forged pistons".

On my old 1995 Cobra I decided to add a Vortech supercharger to my car which already was making 306 rwhp with heads and cam. (Stay with me now- this was back in 1997, so 306 rwhp on that car equated to a 109.32 mph in the 1/4 mile and plenty fast for it's time). Anyways, after putting on the blower and making 480 @ the wheels, guess how long my motor lasted with the stock HYPEREUTECTIC PISTONS! How about 5 months! Yes, it had a custom tune, but there comes a time when the internals "need" to be better.

After melting two pistons, I had to spend $ for a new short block. Did I put hyper pistons back in the new block? NO! I spent the EXTRA (I don't know the amount off hand) money for Forged Pistons. Now it kills me when people are suggesting that GM did this as a cost cutting reason. What? Or better yet, forged pistons are louder and they wouldn't want that added noise in a Cadillac. Come on, give me a break. You know how loud a motor is when the pistons melt?:thehand:

Not that I wish to be argumentative but do you have a clue what you're saying here? Do you even understand what "hyper-eutectic" means? Do you understand the difference between cast and forged pistons?
Listening to your post suggests you do not. Rather than try to make a technical statement here, I think it's probably easier to direct you to a pretty good article I found that should shed some light on the subject for you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypereutectic_piston
Read, and see why your post makes no sense.

Katshot
01-16-08, 09:16 PM
what i'm looking forward to, is exhaust, pulley change, and tune, and adding 50+rwhp to it right there :)
Then you're in for a big let-down. There'll be no "pulley changes" on this puppy. Exhaust mods will help a bit though since the LSA uses only cast iron manifolds and fairly quiet mufflers. Not sure about 50hp but a freer-flowing intake and exhaust could net you close to that. My guess would be closer to maybe 30hp.

Me Wanna A V
01-17-08, 12:33 AM
Katshot:

After "looking" that all over, I eventually got to the bottom of the page:

Hypereutectic pistons can be forged, but typically are only cast. This is because cast pistons are considered strong enough for stock applications, and the extra expense is not justified.
Aftermarket performance pistons made from the most common 4032 and 2618 alloys that are often used to replace stock hypereutectic pistons are typically forged.
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypereutectic_piston (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypereutectic_piston)"

This car is stated to receive: Cast - Hypereutectic Pistons!
No need for us to discuss any further!:thehand:

CVP33
01-17-08, 09:02 PM
What GM should do to improve the 2009 CTS-V before final release?

Let me perform their shakedown runs. If it survives a week with me, it'll do, it'll do just fine. :lildevil:

JimmyH
01-17-08, 09:13 PM
Current V = 405 hp (395 tq) @ 3850 lb = 1:9.506 power to weight ratio
(which means that every 1 hp carries 9.506 lbs)
2009 V = 550 hp (550 tq) @ 4200 lb = 1:7.636 power to weight ratio
(which means that every 1 hp carries 7.636 lbs)


That math is only meaningful in a straight line.

GNSCOTT
01-17-08, 09:46 PM
Katshot:

After "looking" that all over, I eventually got to the bottom of the page:

Hypereutectic pistons can be forged, but typically are only cast. This is because cast pistons are considered strong enough for stock applications, and the extra expense is not justified.
Aftermarket performance pistons made from the most common 4032 and 2618 alloys that are often used to replace stock hypereutectic pistons are typically forged.
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypereutectic_piston (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypereutectic_piston)"

This car is stated to receive: Cast - Hypereutectic Pistons!
No need for us to discuss any further!:thehand:



Seriously, Cast hyper pistons in a forced air car not being important is totally laughable. I cannot tell you how many shattered hyper pistons i have seen in Buick Grand Nationals over the years. They seem to get very dangerous around the 550 rwhp level. I was shocked to read that and i am still figuring that GM is smart enough not to use them and that it is just a typo. Forged internals are the foundation of a modified car.

Also Kat, why do you say that a pulley change to gain boost and Hp is impossible?

jasaero
01-17-08, 09:56 PM
Because many V owners are going to want to mod their cars, and it would have been nice of them to keep us enthusiasts in mind. It's nice having more margin for error and modding capabilities. I'd pay an extra $500 in a heartbeat and deal with the extra noise over a cast piston.....Getting forged slugs after the fact is going to cost THOUSANDS.

The problem is that they are trying to make a claim this car is just as or atleast nearly as quiet and refined as it's intended competition such as the M5 and E63 AMG. I think there will be plenty of safe and affordable head room in this engine anyhow. Maybe not like if it had come with the forged pistons, but you can't have everything for nothing. The money saved between this and an M5 will probably be enough to swap the LSA with the LS9 anyhow!!

jasaero
01-17-08, 10:01 PM
Seriously, Cast hyper pistons in a forced air car not being important is totally laughable. I cannot tell you how many shattered hyper pistons i have seen in Buick Grand Nationals over the years. They seem to get very dangerous around the 550 rwhp level. I was shocked to read that and i am still figuring that GM is smart enough not to use them and that it is just a typo. Forged internals are the foundation of a modified car.

Also Kat, why do you say that a pulley change to gain boost and Hp is impossible?

550hp on a 3.8L Turbo V6 and 550hp on a 6.2L SC V8 are totally different. Not going to want to crank these up too much granted, but they will have room for improvements that aren't too spendy. Just not HUGE room for improvement. I am guessing you will be able to get near LS9 power safely.

CVP33
01-18-08, 12:00 AM
Here's video of Lutz addressing the CTS-V engineering team.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRDx5xFBbWc&feature=related

Katshot
01-18-08, 09:26 AM
Seriously, Cast hyper pistons in a forced air car not being important is totally laughable. I cannot tell you how many shattered hyper pistons i have seen in Buick Grand Nationals over the years. They seem to get very dangerous around the 550 rwhp level. I was shocked to read that and i am still figuring that GM is smart enough not to use them and that it is just a typo. Forged internals are the foundation of a modified car.

Also Kat, why do you say that a pulley change to gain boost and Hp is impossible?

I read somewhere recently that a pulley change is not possible on this blower. Not sure where I read it though.

csp3000
01-18-08, 09:57 AM
Here's video of Lutz addressing the CTS-V engineering team.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRDx5xFBbWc&feature=related


:histeric:

dqw1
01-18-08, 10:16 AM
Move the V emblem from the door to the fender where it belongs. Make the CTS embelm say CTS-V,(I know there's a V embelm on the other side of the trunk). I'd rather see the hood vented rather than the cheesy stamped vents. I see so many people putting fake Buick like vents on everything it's sickening.
Just wondering if that's a Corsa exhaust?

Blackout
01-20-08, 06:36 PM
A guy on another forum I am on actually builds pistons and he did extensive testing with hyper pistons and the results were not favorable. Anything over 6 psi netted BOOM and that was with 8.0:1 compression, although that was an iron block.

Katshot
01-21-08, 09:51 AM
A guy on another forum I am on actually builds pistons and he did extensive testing with hyper pistons and the results were not favorable. Anything over 6 psi netted BOOM and that was with 8.0:1 compression, although that was an iron block.

That's BS!
Not to say that they couldn't be made stronger by forging but the cast hyper-T's should be fine. I really don't see why so many people are getting so freaked out about this. You know how many cars have these pistons? More have them than don't. They're VERY commonly used these days. I really think the LAST thing you should be concerned about in this car is the engine.

Me Wanna A V
01-21-08, 01:05 PM
That's BS!
Not to say that they couldn't be made stronger by forging but the cast hyper-T's should be fine. I really don't see why so many people are getting so freaked out about this. You know how many cars have these pistons? More have them than don't. They're VERY commonly used these days. I really think the LAST thing you should be concerned about in this car is the engine.

How many "Forced Induction" cars have "these"?

Does AMG put hypers in there Kompressor or BiTurbo engines? NO!

Did Ford put hypers in the 03-04 Cobras? NO!

Is Ford putting them in the Shelby GT500? NO!

Blackout
01-21-08, 01:38 PM
That's BS!
Not to say that they couldn't be made stronger by forging but the cast hyper-T's should be fine. I really don't see why so many people are getting so freaked out about this. You know how many cars have these pistons? More have them than don't. They're VERY commonly used these days. I really think the LAST thing you should be concerned about in this car is the engine.

The biggest issue with these is that from what everybody has been talking about is that usually in F/I applications they usually use forged pistons instead because they know that they are more durable and that they can take more power. I'm sure these hyper pistons are used in non performance applications and whatnot but who knows. The car is just making its tour and sitting on a spinning platform at this point. Maybe GM will change some things around before its release

Katshot
01-21-08, 02:59 PM
How many "Forced Induction" cars have "these"?

Does AMG put hypers in there Kompressor or BiTurbo engines? NO!

Did Ford put hypers in the 03-04 Cobras? NO!

Is Ford putting them in the Shelby GT500? NO!

And you know this for a fact how? I think you're confusing the hyper pistons with whether they are cast or forged.

Katshot
01-21-08, 03:29 PM
Thought this was cute. I picked it up on a site that apparently has some piston manufacturers on it:

"...I think hypereutectic pistons got a bad name for the same reason that EFI did when it first came out.

A bunch of beer drinkin' old timers were sitting around sayin' "Why can't they just leave stuff alone? All this new stuff is confusing us. If it's confusing us, then it must be bad. So let's tell everyone how bad the new stuff is..."

PSRmark
01-21-08, 05:15 PM
Thought this was cute. I picked it up on a site that apparently has some piston manufacturers on it:

"...I think hypereutectic pistons got a bad name for the same reason that EFI did when it first came out.

A bunch of beer drinkin' old timers were sitting around sayin' "Why can't they just leave stuff alone? All this new stuff is confusing us. If it's confusing us, then it must be bad. So let's tell everyone how bad the new stuff is..."

Even GM knows that these pistons are not adequate...they have stated that since the combustion pressures are not that excessive that they can "GET BY" with the Hyper units...

Excuse me WHAT???

I expect ring land issues to arise after some miles have been put on them.

But I would love to be wrong.

The Tony Show
01-21-08, 05:41 PM
Even GM knows that these pistons are not adequate...they have stated that since the combustion pressures are not that excessive that they can "GET BY" with the Hyper units...

Source link or it didn't happen. This is how rumors get started.

Silver Dollar
01-21-08, 06:02 PM
....A bunch of beer drinkin' old timers were sitting around sayin' "Why can't they just leave stuff alone? All this new stuff is confusing us. If it's confusing us, then it must be bad. So let's tell everyone how bad the new stuff is..."[/I][/B]

Hey, that's me!

Katshot
01-21-08, 07:33 PM
Even GM knows that these pistons are not adequate...they have stated that since the combustion pressures are not that excessive that they can "GET BY" with the Hyper units...

Excuse me WHAT???

I expect ring land issues to arise after some miles have been put on them.

But I would love to be wrong.

Again, I think you are confusing hypereutectic with cast vs. forged. Does ANYONE actually read the posts & links provided? People are obviously a little confused about what "hyper-eutectic" means. And likewise, I think people are a little too eager to jump on the "forged" bandwagon like it is synonymous with saying the parts (in this case pistons) are the ultimate choice. They aren't. Do some reading on pistons and you'll see that choosing forged pistons is not without it's draw-backs, and this is what factored into GM engineering's decision NOT to use them. People need to stop being taken in by marketing crap. The phrase "forged internals" is used so freely these days that many people quite naturally equate the phrase with being the best and strongest choice for engine parts but it's simply NOT true. They ARE the best for certain applications, but NOT all.

CVP33
01-21-08, 09:06 PM
So somebody break it down for me. As an "old timer" I'm use to forged crank, rods, pistons being the strongest period. So what was the reason GM chose hypereutectic pistons? I understand that these cast pistons have more silicon, have reduced wear, minimal expansion and allow for the compression ring to move farther up the piston. Thus you can have a lighter, shorter piston reducing reciprocating weight and allowing for a faster rev-ing engine. The downside is detonation, which a cast piston will not tolerate for long.

The forged piston has expansion issues, which could make for a noisy engine when started cold. They are also heavier, more expensive, etc. So it the bottom line cost? Is the issue that a modern V8 with a stock PCM shouldn't be allowing detonation of any kind anyway so forged internals are overkill? I gotta know GM, I gotta know!

HiTechRV
01-21-08, 11:16 PM
Pure guess here but NVH? We all love the lope and rough idle of a Z06 engine, but there are those who think it is unrefined.

Katshot
01-22-08, 08:34 AM
...I understand that these cast pistons have more silicon, have reduced wear, minimal expansion and allow for the compression ring to move farther up the piston...
Sorry to single you out but this is what I've been talking about. You say "cast" but you're actually describing "hypereutectic".
A hypereutectic piston can be either cast or forged. People are bashing GM and they aren't even sure about the technologies involved. Check out the link I posted earlier in this thread. It's very informative on the subject.

atdeneve
01-22-08, 11:29 AM
So somebody break it down for me. As an "old timer" I'm use to forged crank, rods, pistons being the strongest period. So what was the reason GM chose hypereutectic pistons? I understand that these cast pistons have more silicon, have reduced wear, minimal expansion and allow for the compression ring to move farther up the piston. Thus you can have a lighter, shorter piston reducing reciprocating weight and allowing for a faster rev-ing engine. The downside is detonation, which a cast piston will not tolerate for long.

The forged piston has expansion issues, which could make for a noisy engine when started cold. They are also heavier, more expensive, etc. So it the bottom line cost? Is the issue that a modern V8 with a stock PCM shouldn't be allowing detonation of any kind anyway so forged internals are overkill? I gotta know GM, I gotta know!


Sorry to single you out but this is what I've been talking about. You say "cast" but you're actually describing "hypereutectic".
A hypereutectic piston can be either cast or forged. People are bashing GM and they aren't even sure about the technologies involved. Check out the link I posted earlier in this thread. It's very informative on the subject.

I think he was referring specifically to the hypereutectic pistons in the Gen II V application, which are indeed cast. If you read the sentence preceding his first reference to "these cast pistons", you'll see he's referrring to the hypereutectic pistons.
So what was the reason GM chose hypereutectic pistons? I understand that these cast pistons ...

Regardless, more often than not, a hypereutectic piston is a cast piston, and vice versa, which may be why people might be using the two interchangeably (although, yes, technically they are distinct) - in fact, even the article you linked to indicates that, while "Hypereutectic pistons can be forged, [they are] typically are only cast."

In any case, I think the fact that Gm / Cadillac decided to use cast hypereutectic pistons throws a lot of people off. Why did they decide to go that route? On both counts: hypereutectic and cast. I mean, even you yourself acknowledged that hyper pistons can be forged. Why didn't they go with the forged pistons, or better yet, why not have gone with eutectic (not even hypoeutectic) forged pistons? That would have alleviated any smog concerns, piston slap / NVH issues, piston scuffing, thermal dissipation requirements (so any of those reasons for opting to go with hyper pistons is out). And we would have obtained decreased piston brittleness (by both decreasing excess silicon content and by high pressure forging).

Or take it one step further and use a plasma coating sprayed on the cylinder wall instead of a steel cylinder sleeve (simlar to that in the new Nissan GT-R VR38). Without the iron lining, the aluminum piston and the aluminum block would have a closer rate of expansion, thereby eliminating the need for hypereutectic pistons. You also get the advantages of better heat transfer, larger bore diameter for the same bore center, and decreased mass (all advantages recognized by the VR38). Ah, we could only hope, right?

In the VR38, the plasma coating is 0.15 mm / 0.006 in thick, replacing an iron liner 2.6 mm / 0.10 in thick for a increased diameter of [(2.6 mm - 0.15 mm) x2] = 4.9 mm (actual increase of 4.8 mm / 0.19 in). Any of you that have the specs on the LSA's cylinder sleeve could probably figure out the realized gain in displacement you might see with a plasma coating on the 6.2L.

Ultimately, it all comes down to the cost savings. That's the only way I can see it. I mean, if it's sufficient (for stock levels), fine. But, they know that at least a good portion of those who buy the V are buying it because of, not only the amenities provided for in the luxury class, but also the handling and the engine - an LS engine. Now, an LS engine, they know is gonna end up being modified. You can't tell me they don't know this. With that in mind, why not put in forged eutectic pistons? Money. There's really no mystery here. I think...

But, hey, maybe it was just a typo. Psh. Yeah right. (I do hope it is, though)

Katshot
01-22-08, 12:14 PM
I think you could drive yourself crazy trying to second-guess the OEM on this.

FIVEOH!!!
01-22-08, 12:41 PM
I think people just need to relax and just wait to drive one. It's amazing the knowledge that exist in this board regarding these motors. But wait to drive the car first and then talk about stuff like this. I can almost guarantee that the minute someone drives the 1st car sold, They will go nuts about it. Then they can start talking about what changes they would make. For now just let it be.

atdeneve
01-22-08, 12:42 PM
I think you could drive yourself crazy trying to second-guess the OEM on this.

I think you're right.


I can almost guarantee that the minute someone drives the 1st car sold, They will go nuts about it.

Mos Definitively.

Katshot
01-22-08, 12:51 PM
It just amazes me that this place is so consumed with fears of engine failures. Has Cadillac ever had such problems? Ok, let me rephrase that. When has a non-Cadillac engine in a Cadillac had such problems? Ok, let me rephrase that too. When has a Chevy engine in a Cadillac had such problems?.......Ok, I think THAT one will fly.

Albertan
01-22-08, 04:22 PM
I'd be a bit circumspect of anything in Wikipedia. The sources can be anyone so the information could be correct or could be completely wrong. I'd feel happier if a piston manufacturer was quoted. I did look over the link and it looks like it could be correct but then I'm not an expert on pistons. I did use forged in a 2.4litre Sunfire motor but only because they were easier to get. So I guess my daughter could put a maggie on her car!

Katshot
01-22-08, 09:04 PM
I'd be a bit circumspect of anything in Wikipedia. The sources can be anyone so the information could be correct or could be completely wrong. I'd feel happier if a piston manufacturer was quoted. I did look over the link and it looks like it could be correct but then I'm not an expert on pistons. I did use forged in a 2.4litre Sunfire motor but only because they were easier to get. So I guess my daughter could put a maggie on her car!

I checked a few other sites too but you're right. To that end, I DID contact Wiseco but have not yet heard back from them. If I get a chance, I'll try another. I too, am no expert on pistons but am a retired (but w/30 years experience) professional mechanic with lapse ASE credentials, so I have at least SOME degree of experience with this stuff.

jasaero
01-22-08, 10:38 PM
I think the fact the LSA has cast hyper pistons is MOSTLY a recip weight and NVH reasoning. Seems LSA is all optimized for extra operating efficiency and refinement compared to the LS9. The SC is supposed to be more efficient than the 2.1L unit in the LS9 even. I actually think these will be good for some pretty robust low cost upgrades anyhow. Most are going to work the whole engine anyhow if they are going to do anything REALLY extreme. Unless they plan on taking a big risk anyhow. We'll see I guess.

MauiV
01-23-08, 12:04 AM
Not sure how many of you have actually driven an 08 but I have had the opportunity twice when mine was in for minor fixes (my dealer ALWAYS hooks me up with a new CTS or an Escalade, and I visit for the smallest tick tack things) and I love the look of the instrument cluster but it isnt functional at all. The long tubes force you to actually move your head to look down them at the 2 outer ones. It definatly needs to be opened up some, especially the tach.

HiTechRV
01-23-08, 12:04 AM
+1....

wrazor1
01-23-08, 06:01 PM
I'm still more concerned about weight than I am about pistons. Put the V on a diet! And not a Jenny Craig, lose a couple of pounds diet, I mean a full-on stomach staple. We need the Al Roker surgery on this car.

Katshot
01-23-08, 08:24 PM
I'm still more concerned about weight than I am about pistons. Put the V on a diet! And not a Jenny Craig, lose a couple of pounds diet, I mean a full-on stomach staple. We need the Al Roker surgery on this car.

+1 for me too.

ylwjacket
01-27-08, 10:19 PM
I'd like them to have a performance driving school, like the M school, included in the purchase, similar to the M cars. You wouldn't be required to go to it, but since you paid for it as part of the car purchase, a lot of people might.

Also, I think that would add a little to the buying experience.

neuronbob
01-27-08, 10:29 PM
I'd like them to have a performance driving school, like the M school, included in the purchase, similar to the M cars. You wouldn't be required to go to it, but since you paid for it as part of the car purchase, a lot of people might.

Also, I think that would add a little to the buying experience.

I think that is an excellent idea. When I take possession of the car, it will be the most powerful I've ever owned. It would be nice to know how to drive it properly and SAFELY. I'm not worried about wrapping it around a tree, but I have only owned FWD and my current car is AWD, so learning some of the dynamics of RWD, especially in a car like this, would be very useful.

As far as the comments above about weight...If you read John Heinricy's live chat transcript, for Cadillac it's all about power to weight ratio, and despite the weight, it is better than the competition. I'm not at all worried considering my current car is a touch over 4k pounds.

Seattle CTS-V
01-28-08, 01:13 AM
I thought our cars were about 3800lbs:hmm: Still heavy at 4200 no doubt


3850lbs.

Seattle CTS-V
01-28-08, 01:15 AM
I think that is an excellent idea. When I take possession of the car, it will be the most powerful I've ever owned. It would be nice to know how to drive it properly and SAFELY. I'm not worried about wrapping it around a tree, but I have only owned FWD and my current car is AWD, so learning some of the dynamics of RWD, especially in a car like this, would be very useful.

As far as the comments above about weight...If you read John Heinricy's live chat transcript, for Cadillac it's all about power to weight ratio, and despite the weight, it is better than the competition. I'm not at all worried considering my current car is a touch over 4k pounds.

I took the ///M school last February. Got to drive the M5/M6 and Z4 M coupes. Alot of fun but don't expect to learn all you need to know from a one-day course. Sign yourself up for a REAL race school and go out and really learn how to drive your car!

Katshot
02-15-08, 11:31 AM
I checked a few other sites too but you're right. To that end, I DID contact Wiseco but have not yet heard back from them. If I get a chance, I'll try another. I too, am no expert on pistons but am a retired (but w/30 years experience) professional mechanic with lapse ASE credentials, so I have at least SOME degree of experience with this stuff.

FINALLY heard from Wiseco today. Their LS engine expert said the following:

They expect a Cadillac owner to not put up with the noise a forged piston *can* make compared to a cast piston. The problem is GM designs these pistons with a TON of skirt taper so a guy can start it up at negative 30 degrees and floor it all the way to the convenience store without seizing the engine. Many LS pistons have a lot of slap because of this taper.

We have more knowledgeable people running our pistons, so we reduce taper a lot. This often makes our forged pistons QUIETER than o.e. cast piston in a lot of applications. Pretty sad considering we're starting out with a much denser alloy.

And yes,.....cast is cheaper.

Cadillac Tony
02-15-08, 11:37 AM
I'll second the skirt taper noise issue- my LS6 sounds like a sewing machine. It runs like a scalded dog, but still noisy.

Katshot
02-15-08, 12:59 PM
Had the same thing with my Denali a few years back. Yeah, it was noisy (more so when cold) but that wasn't a big issue for me.

jasaero
02-15-08, 01:11 PM
Wonder if they did also take some taper out and then code the ECM to not allow hard revving until certain criteria are met? I know there is some internal need for a quieter LS variety for Caddy and Buick since the Northstar replacement is now dead. This could be the first model of LS that really tries to make the LS more refined and attempt to get the NVH more near DOHC levels. The cast pistons and less taper could make for a lot quieter LS compared the the LS6 in my car. I for one wouldn't mind my car being handicapped deliberately for longevity sake until it's warmed up as I am very impatient when getting in a vehicle and going somewhere. I didn't start driving until after engine designs had lots of tweaking to allow things to work out well without a warm up period. If I ever purchased a classic car or put a built engine in a car I would need to train myself to wait before pushing things. If a computer handicapped the car until it was safe to push it though, I wouldn't mind.

Katshot
02-15-08, 01:45 PM
Wonder if they did also take some taper out and then code the ECM to not allow hard revving until certain criteria are met? I know there is some internal need for a quieter LS variety for Caddy and Buick since the Northstar replacement is now dead. This could be the first model of LS that really tries to make the LS more refined and attempt to get the NVH more near DOHC levels. The cast pistons and less taper could make for a lot quieter LS compared the the LS6 in my car. I for one wouldn't mind my car being handicapped deliberately for longevity sake until it's warmed up as I am very impatient when getting in a vehicle and going somewhere. I didn't start driving until after engine designs had lots of tweaking to allow things to work out well without a warm up period. If I ever purchased a classic car or put a built engine in a car I would need to train myself to wait before pushing things. If a computer handicapped the car until it was safe to push it though, I wouldn't mind.

Not sure how they could accomplish that. Coolant temp could be used but that lags WAY behind metal temp of the specific components involved here.

ZOH6CAD
02-15-08, 01:56 PM
If Cad wants to compete with the Europeans they must loose the weight - at least 300-500 lbs. ccontinulally adding more HP that uses premium fuel is going to hold them back. Whats next the 650 HP Z motor? The new Pontiac (actually the OZZIE Commadore) of V8 Supercar fame should be the new GM entrant to the SCCA series, the Cad is just too heavy and the Commadore is a proven winner in OZ. I have enjoyed my 05 CTSV but with the GMs Rear Diff debacle, the clunking and the extra weight , the extreme depreciation and after owning a 3000# Z06 it will be sold in the spring and the garage will house a new poncho as soon as the SS version 6 speed arrives. By the way if anyone is interested in the (put away for the winter) o5 CTSV , its a black one owner 12,000KMs and the full service warrenty runs thru to March 2010. I live in the greater Vancouver BC area.

ZOH6CAD

StealthV
02-16-08, 12:42 AM
Not sure how they could accomplish that. Coolant temp could be used but that lags WAY behind metal temp of the specific components involved here.

The ability has been in GM engine controllers for years - Just not always used. There are many V1 cars running around with cold engine protection as the result of a little PCM reflash. ;)

Mystical_Ice
02-16-08, 02:52 AM
Hey Rick,
what would you, in your experience, suggest the criteria be before 'pushing' the engines?

it's never that cold when i start up in the mornings (lately oil temperature has been around 45 degrees), but i generally keep the RPMs below 2500 until oil temperature is 100 degrees +

is that good? should i adjust that habit?

jasaero
02-16-08, 10:33 AM
Not sure how they could accomplish that. Coolant temp could be used but that lags WAY behind metal temp of the specific components involved here.

What do you think heats the water?? But you also have oil temp and oil pressure. StealthV has mentioned it's aleady being done on V1's. Once coolant temp has reached it's nominal point I think that would be an OK place to open things up anyhow. Everything is pretty much fully heated not long after the coolant reaches it's normal running temp.

Katshot
02-19-08, 09:33 AM
Understood, I was just trying point out how long that can take at times. Many people do not have that kind of restraint.

ylwjacket
02-19-08, 11:59 AM
turn down the volume on the turn signals. i only use them to change lanes now, because they are too loud.

Mystical_Ice
02-19-08, 04:03 PM
turn down the volume on the turn signals. i only use them to change lanes now, because they are too loud.

i can just see it now
"i'm sorry officer... i NEVER use my turn signal... it's just too LOUD!"

;)

actually just today i changed lanes on the highway, and forgot ot turn the turn signal off (i had music on, and the windows open), and after a few minutes it displayed a message saying "turn signal on" or something like that!
i was impressed :)

Katshot
02-19-08, 06:02 PM
Hell, I remember wrapping the flashers in foam to quiet them. At the very least pop them out of the retainer and let them hang.

StealthV
02-19-08, 07:44 PM
Here's a relevant real issue learned while trying to order my '08 - The '09 V damn well better not have the UltraView sunroof as basically mandatory with every option package.

Need the option of an all steel roof (or "normal" sunroof) will still allowing all the luxurious goodies such as HIDs, nav, HDD, Recaros, etc.

Forcing UltraView on anything but a stripped down car is d-u-m-stupid. :mad2:

jkrutch
02-26-08, 03:04 PM
GM does stupid better than most. If they want to take buyers away from BMW and MB they need to enable the navigation to be used while the vehicle is moving. How come BMW and MB allows this and GM doesn't? Hell, even Volvo allows the nav to be used in motion. The rear back up camera is also needed. Now that they added Bluetooth at least that is out of the way. Is Keyless entry/start on the CTS-V? Is the Nav DVD or hard disk? GM needs to offer more than the competition to get my dollar vote.

Cadillac Tony
02-26-08, 04:35 PM
Keyless entry/start/remote start is standard. Nav is HDD based.

They already offer many features that the competition doesn't- Exclusive features over MB and BMW include (but are not limited to):

-Magnetic ride control
-OnStar with live diagnostics and advanced crash notification
-40gb HDD with iPod integration
-Pause/rewind live radio
-Adaptive forward lighting
-Laser brazed body seams for better fit/finish
-Hand cut & sewn dash + door panels
-Dual stage + dual depth airbags
-Stabilitrak 2.0 (which is still the industry standard for stability systems)
-Dynamic rear brake proportioning
-Performance traction management

That's just a few. Enabling Navigation when in motion is pointless in the CTS since you can use your voice to enter a destination or waypoint, and is hardly an appropriate test to determine a car's worthiness anyway.

dqw1
02-26-08, 04:45 PM
I agree with the sunroof comment. I don't have it on my 04 V and don't miss it but I have the feeling most cars will have a roof unless you order it from the factory. I still haven't found another V without the roof.
I do think the 08 CTS & 09V has enough "gadgets" to be competitive with everyone else.
I think GM has done an outstanding job so far with this design.

Katshot
02-26-08, 09:27 PM
Keyless entry/start/remote start is standard. Nav is HDD based.

They already offer many features that the competition doesn't- Exclusive features over MB and BMW include (but are not limited to):

-Magnetic ride control
-OnStar with live diagnostics and advanced crash notification
-40gb HDD with iPod integration
-Pause/rewind live radio
-Adaptive forward lighting
-Laser brazed body seams for better fit/finish
-Hand cut & sewn dash + door panels
-Dual stage + dual depth airbags
-Stabilitrak 2.0 (which is still the industry standard for stability systems)
-Dynamic rear brake proportioning
-Performance traction management

That's just a few. Enabling Navigation when in motion is pointless in the CTS since you can use your voice to enter a destination or waypoint, and is hardly an appropriate test to determine a car's worthiness anyway.

This is exactly the point I made about about how domestics have to be value leaders in their class. I, myself get tired of domestic OEMs piling on fluff rather than solid quality. Hopefully, the V2 will not only have some significant advantages in both power and "toys" but also deliver on the solid quality. Unfortunately, that is something that only time will allow us to verify. As I've said many times, "on paper" the car looks awesome. I only hope it delivers on the important stuff that enthusiast owners will find essential.

MauiV
02-26-08, 09:36 PM
I still haven't found another V without the roof.


No roof and dont miss it at all.

StealthV
02-26-08, 09:59 PM
Since my BMW has things on Tony's "Cadillac only" list does that mean a GM marketing intern loses their wings?

And if I listed all the things BMW has over the Cadillac, you'd all call me a Bimmer-boy. :D

The '09 V doesn't do it for me even if were priced the same as my Bimmer at $60k FULLY LOADED (save for the UltraPew roof). Cadillac, I double-dog dare you to win me back.

NormV
02-26-08, 11:21 PM
Since my BMW has things on Tony's "Cadillac only" list does that mean a GM marketing intern loses their wings?

And if I listed all the things BMW has over the Cadillac, you'd all call me a Bimmer-boy. :D

The '09 V doesn't do it for me even if were priced the same as my Bimmer at $60k FULLY LOADED (save for the UltraPew roof). Cadillac, I double-dog dare you to win me back.

$54,6XX for the C63 and 450hp 3.9 to 60 MPH! Sure, it's an auto trans....but....

There has been a couple of us that have seen the light. Enjoy your ride.

Would you be back in a V1 if the diff was not an issue?

Norm

StealthV
02-27-08, 12:56 AM
After seeing and driving the '08 CTS, V1 is extremely dated in every way.

Yes, I've seen the light and it is shinning from Müchen.

v84life
02-27-08, 01:06 AM
Here's a relevant real issue learned while trying to order my '08 - The '09 V damn well better not have the UltraView sunroof as basically mandatory with every option package.

Need the option of an all steel roof (or "normal" sunroof) will still allowing all the luxurious goodies such as HIDs, nav, HDD, Recaros, etc.

Forcing UltraView on anything but a stripped down car is d-u-m-stupid. :mad2:
YESSSSSSSS

v84life
02-27-08, 01:09 AM
Keyless entry/start/remote start is standard. Nav is HDD based.

They already offer many features that the competition doesn't- Exclusive features over MB and BMW include (but are not limited to):

-Magnetic ride control
-OnStar with live diagnostics and advanced crash notification
-40gb HDD with iPod integration
-Pause/rewind live radio
-Adaptive forward lighting
-Laser brazed body seams for better fit/finish
-Hand cut & sewn dash + door panels
-Dual stage + dual depth airbags
-Stabilitrak 2.0 (which is still the industry standard for stability systems)
-Dynamic rear brake proportioning
-Performance traction management

That's just a few. Enabling Navigation when in motion is pointless in the CTS since you can use your voice to enter a destination or waypoint, and is hardly an appropriate test to determine a car's worthiness anyway.
Thank You:thumbsup:

StealthV
02-27-08, 03:05 AM
The marketing spin isn't entirely accurate - Cadillac isn't the only one with adaptive headlights, dual stage airbags, etc.

A few things the car is missing: lifetime satillite radio subscription, full maintenance plan, adaptive head restraints, 20-way power seats, intelligent AWD (100% to any wheel), heads-up display, HD radio, active steering, active roll stabilization, auto-dry brake rotors when it is raining, auto-grab brakes when stopped on a hill, Bluetooth*, Nightvision, front & rear park distance control, active knee protection airbags, adaptive brake lights, heated rear seats, hill descent control, rear passenger HVAC, 12 year corrosion warranty, high beam assistant, lane departure warning, rear side impact airbags,...

*Coming late '08? Just like the extended range 2-way keyless entry remote?

It's all marketing spin. :shhh:

Cadillac Tony
02-27-08, 10:01 AM
It's not marketing spin, it's fact. There's a lot of things you mentioned that BMW has over Cadillac, but there's also things Cadillac has over BMW. Do you get an email every month from BMW letting you know the status of our oil life and tire pressures? No. Can BMW diagnose a check engine light remotely while you're driving? No. If you're looking for something that isn't listed in your Nav database, can you press a button and have a live person download directions to your car hands free? No. There's also Stabilitrak, a 40gb HDD for music storage and radio buffering, Magnetic Ride Control with driver selectable settings and PTM with adjustable thresholds. Dual depth and dual stage airbags with seat position sensing system and passenger weight sensing system are a class exclusive on the CTS- your BMW has dual stage, and that's it. The CTS is also the only car in the world that already meets the stricter 2010 rollover safety standards.

It's also worth mentioning that all the goodies you listed on the 'Bahn Burner are options, (even on an $80,000+ M5) yet are standard on the CTS-V. As I pointed out in another thread, the BMW goes from being a lot more expensive than the V (base) to ridiculously more expensive when you pay extra for all the things Cadillac gives you standard. As far as the "free" maintenance and Satellite radio BMW gives you- well, pay me an extra $20,000 for a CTS and I'll toss that in, along with a nice coffee mug to boot. :D

I'm glad you're happy with your Bimmer, but don't turn into an import prick overnight as soon as you buy one. You've been an asset to the community and a champion of the V for a long time, and I hate to see you do a 180 just becuase your Dealer couldn't get you the car you want. I would have liked the opportunity to order you a car myself after your local dealer couldn't figure out how to order it, but that's all in the past now. Enjoy your BMW, it's a really nice car, but please don't let the fumes from the German leather turn you into ToySnob.

RightTurn
02-27-08, 10:14 AM
:golf clap:

OldRoadDawg
02-27-08, 10:15 AM
... but there's also things Cadillac has over BMW.
You forgot one other important featureTony.
Made in East Lansing, MI USA

gothicaleigh
02-27-08, 10:40 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v204/JoeUser11/motivator2902339.jpg

CIWS
02-27-08, 10:42 AM
The '09 V doesn't do it for me even if were priced the same as my Bimmer at $60k FULLY LOADED (save for the UltraPew roof). Cadillac, I double-dog dare you to win me back.

You show you purchased an 08 535xi ? I'm on BMW's website and I'm already up to a car that's 66,100 and it is not fully loaded with only 18" wheels. That's without

Active Cruise + 2,400

Head's Up Display + 1,200

Lane Departure Warning + 500

Night Vision + 2,200

= 72,400

add 19" M Cross Spoke 101 Wheel Set +4,995


How are you buying one FULLY LOADED for 60K ?

trukk
02-27-08, 01:36 PM
<SNIP>...You've been an asset to the community and a champion of the V for a long time, and I hate to see you do a 180 just becuase your Dealer couldn't get you the car you want...<SNIP>...Enjoy your BMW, it's a really nice car, but please don't let the fumes from the German leather turn you into ToySnob.

Happy Fun StealthV left us over a year ago. Since then it has been annoying, condecending, complaing StealthV. Too much ski-doo fumes? I dunno.

About the only thing he's got right in the last year, has been Pop-Tart Nav is Gey.

-Chris

NormV
02-27-08, 02:01 PM
Stealth will go through the euro stage and be back. It comes with age and wisdom when things are out of warranty. I've been there and back and decided no car is made for me, so I take the closet and make it work!

Norm


Happy Fun StealthV left us over a year ago. Since then it has been annoying, condecending, complaing StealthV. Too much ski-doo fumes? I dunno.

About the only thing he's got right in the last year, has been Pop-Tart Nav is Gey.

-Chris

HITMONEY
02-27-08, 02:15 PM
All this is like a couple of guys arguing in a strip club over which girl to take into a VIP Room.

"The Blonde is hot..."

"No way man, the brunette is hotter.."

"The blonde wants $200.00 to go into the VIP.."

"The brunette told me she will go to VIP for $150.00 and promised a happy ending..."

"Well the blonde has bigger air bags..."

"Yeah but the brunette has a tighter rear end end assembly.."


Blah blah blah...

They are both hot, shut up and go to VIP already before the red head shows up and really blows your mind.

In the end you will have spent alot of money and hopefully enjoyed yourself.

;)

trukk
02-27-08, 02:18 PM
All this is like a couple of guys arguing in a strip club over which girl to take into a VIP Room.

"The Blonde is hot..."

"No way man, the brunette is hotter.."

"The blonde wants $200.00 to go into the VIP.."

"The brunette told me she will go to VIP for $150.00 and promised a happy ending..."

"Well the blonde has bigger air bags..."

"Yeah but the brunette has a tighter rear end end assembly.."


Blah blah blah...

They are both hot, shut up and go to VIP already before the red head shows up and really blows your mind.

In the end you will have spent alot of money and hopefully enjoyed yourself.

;)


I just can't get enough stripper anecdotes.

-Chris

CIWS
02-27-08, 02:33 PM
happy ending FTW ! :D

Katshot
02-27-08, 07:40 PM
Stealth will go through the euro stage and be back. It comes with age and wisdom when things are out of warranty. I've been there and back and decided no car is made for me, so I take the closet and make it work!

Norm

You touch on a MAJOR issue for me. What do you do once these kind of cars are off warranty? I'm not talking the V2 specifically, I mean ANY of these ultra high-tech cars. I mean, you ever notice what happened to all the "semi" high-tech cars of the 90's? Owners bastardizing the hell out of them because they can't afford to fix them "properly", resale values in the toilet, etc., etc.

HITMONEY
02-27-08, 07:58 PM
You touch on a MAJOR issue for me. What do you do once these kind of cars are off warranty? I'm not talking the V2 specifically, I mean ANY of these ultra high-tech cars. I mean, you ever notice what happened to all the "semi" high-tech cars of the 90's? Owners bastardizing the hell out of them because they can't afford to fix them "properly", resale values in the toilet, etc., etc.

The answer, at least for me, ... get a new one before the warranty runs out.

Problem solved.

HushH
02-29-08, 11:02 AM
All this is like a couple of guys arguing in a strip club over which girl to take into a VIP Room.

"The Blonde is hot..."

"No way man, the brunette is hotter.."

"The blonde wants $200.00 to go into the VIP.."

"The brunette told me she will go to VIP for $150.00 and promised a happy ending..."

"Well the blonde has bigger air bags..."

"Yeah but the brunette has a tighter rear end end assembly.."


Blah blah blah...

They are both hot, shut up and go to VIP already before the red head shows up and really blows your mind.

In the end you will have spent alot of money and hopefully enjoyed yourself.

;)


Post of the Month!!!:yup:

JimmyH
03-07-08, 09:50 PM
bumped for fun

xshrpshtr
03-08-08, 08:44 PM
Funny...I have never seen Pratt in any discussion having to do with technical issues what so ever? Why is that? He is touted as the greatest salesperson evar! Yet Never involved in discussions pertaining to the enthusiasts on this site having questions of a technical nature. Is it too much to wonder if he is indeed a know nothing sales person? In complete contrast to Tony who CLEARLY knows his stuff and spends a huge amount of his time to answer tough questions for us.