: How many horses are left on the table (Maggie V)



SuperV_Rob
01-01-08, 05:22 PM
I have spent the entire day reading all of the links that I can find on the subject and guess that all I did was confuse myself :confused:

My question is two fold; 1) If one wanted to retain their factory warranty and 2) If they wanted to maintain a low level of resonance inside the car at highway speeds!

I have discussed the idea of a Maggie with the hardware acquisition committee (The Wife) and she approved the purchase with the aforementioned caveats.

I am under the impression that you will maximize your power and torque by adding the following:

1) bigger throttle body
2) stealth tune
3) High Flow Cats
4) Headers (ceramic coated preferably)

I think that I understand that you will definitely need the following:

1) BMR wheel hop kit
2) Extra set of tires to replace the ones that you will burn out in the first week :)


So the bottom line questions are as follows:

Should I go with the Maggie and Stealth Tune understanding that I am leaving the stock manifolds, headers, and Corsa Cat Back Exhaust what will my actual RWH gain be, enough people out there have probably started here and that is the first part of my first question? The second part of the question is if these are the only mods that are made, will I automatically have my warranty voided?

The next part of the question, assuming that I am OK with the above and go ahead and add the BMR kit, will the Wheel Hop kit be blamed should I break my rear end and what are the chances of fighting this conclusion?

Now having asked all of that, assuming the wife forgot about her dislike for the resonance inside every other vehicle that I drive. how much HP and Torque am I leaving on the table by not adding the intake and exhaust mods?

Thanks in advance for any comments, concerns, or advise!

My Best,

Rob

heavymetals
01-01-08, 05:27 PM
Intake gains are minimal at best.

Adding a maggie and just a Stealth tune is plently, but when is that ever enough?

Exhaust?

Either leave it stock or swap out the whole thing.

I had a CORSA and now I have a B&B (headers and all).

CTSV_Rob
01-01-08, 05:35 PM
Rob,

No resonance with the entire B&B setup (with the resonator) and I'm sure it will lhelp you with a few extra HP to boot.

Too bad your not in the area, I would be able to show you what it sounds like. Very civil when playing nice but wakes up when you want to put a little foot into it. Out of all of my Mod's (I don't have a maggie yet) this would be the one I would do again without a doubt.

Rob

keeksv
01-01-08, 05:43 PM
...if you get the Maggie, you'll have a hard time with warranty claims on the drivetrain at most dealerships. I just said f the warranty.

...I would (and did) get headers with the Maggie. I have Corsa catback and Kooks, and it is very civilized until you get on it at about 4K. Of course I have cats still too (RT). The car is easier to dyno tune with headers and a wideband O2 added (helps to have an AFR gauge too). No experience with Stealth tune but I'm sure your HP gains will be more with headers and FI there too. Some have modified the stock manifolds to flow better as well and that seemed to work; I'm sure if you search here you'll dig up more threads than you could imagine on this subject.

...just ask yourself what you want the car to do well for you. There is alot to worry about with FI, and also with tearing the engine apart for heads/cam. In retrospect, I kinda wish I had just torn down the engine instead of adding the blower, but I still love the low end with the Maggie as a bolt-on.

Good luck. Welcome to Hell.

ronr
01-01-08, 06:13 PM
I have a maggie, stealth tune and corsa cat back (stock exhaust manifolds) and I'm very happy with the setup. I have never had a warranty claim denied with my setup but it's highly dealer dependent (and mine is great!) I do not have any BMR or KARS stuff under the car but I do have the Specter bushings and GC coilovers on FG2's. Wheel hop is still there but its actually pretty tame compared to how it was and I've learned how to drive and avoid it entirely.

I've toyed with the idea of further hp mods like, smaller maggie drive pulley (realizing that I have one of the early maggies with a 3" pulley), headers... but, I can't seem to get enough tire under the car to take full advantage of what it's already making so I'm having difficulty justifying adding anything else until I flare/tub the back so that I can actually use the addition.

I love the setup I've got and this thing puts a smile on my face every time I get behind the wheel (which won't be again until next spring :( ) The low end torque is great not only for daily spirited driving but also for the occasional track day at Grattan.

rand49er
01-01-08, 06:13 PM
Just like keeksv mentioned, the low end torque of the maggie is great. And with my mods, my car has the perfect rumble without being annoying during family outings. Plus, I can pass just about any car on the road ... just because.

Funny, but my maggie doesn't have the characteristic 'whine' that others have talked about here and that ronr's V has. (I had the opportunity to drive his once ... it sold me on getting one. :bouncy:) BTW, ronr has the stock exh mans and cats with a Corsa coupled with his maggie. He's had warranty work done post-maggie install with good success at his dealer. I haven't needed any warranty work since my maggie install (July '07), so I don't know how that's gonna be received by my dealer ... so far, they've been outstanding about the headers, cats, exhaust, GC, etc. and done two diffs that were barely whining ... guess they didn't want to hear me whine. :rolleyes:

The whole warranty issue seems to vary significantly from dealer-to-dealer IMO. Maybe throwin' them a bone (have them do some oil changes, etc. once or twice) so they feel loved, and they'll treat you right.

Kinda rambling here a bit ... it's the 'wine.' :alchi:

SuperV_Rob
01-01-08, 06:42 PM
All, I certainly appreciate the response, did any of you have before and after Dyno runs to determine what your actual gains are? RonR, I am happy to hear that the exhaust is not obnoxious because that is a no go in my household! I would love to know if leaving the cats and manifolds cost 7 or 70 horsepower. This is in line with what my father always told me, choose your fights wisely :) If it is in the tens of horses then I will probably argue the point with her, if not, I will let her have her win and smile every time I drive mine :)

ronr
01-01-08, 06:57 PM
Sorry, never did any dyno runs before or after so I don't have anything for comparison.

lunarx
01-01-08, 07:31 PM
I say keep it simple (& cheap):

Maggie w/ Stock Exhaust & Stealth-V Tune.

Plenty of power, quiet, cheap and you "might" even keep your warranty. :shhh:
It's not too hard to remove just the Maggie if you really wanted to play it safe for a warranty claim.

Headers and Exhaust add another $2K+ of costs and will only add to your warranty concerns.
Use some of that $2K for a 100K extended warranty, since that gives GM more incentive to support you (they won't want to refund you).

You can ask Ewill, but I think extended warranty customers get a little more leway with claims.

SuperV_Rob
01-01-08, 07:42 PM
The "V" already has a set of Corsa Cat Back Exhaust waiting to be installed but from what I read, this will not make a big NOISE difference unless I am WOT. As far as the extended warranty goes, I already have one which is what I am hoping to protect. Is there any real benefit to the wheel hop kit if i have no intention of clutch dump starts but am more of a roll of the line and tromp kind of guy? I am concerned that if i break my rear and have the wheel hop kit installed they will claim that the rear could not travel it"s intended distance and this lead to the failure!

again, I seriously appreciate the feedback and am counting down the days till install :) I am certain that every one of you went through this on the way to mod hell :)

My Best,

Rob



I say keep it simple (& cheap):

Maggie w/ Stock Exhaust & Stealth-V Tune.

Plenty of power, quiet, cheap and you "might" even keep your warranty. :shhh:
It's not too hard to remove just the Maggie if you really wanted to play it safe for a warranty claim.

Headers and Exhaust add another $2K+ of costs and will only add to your warranty concerns.
Use some of that $2K for a 100K extended warranty, since that gives GM more incentive to support you (they won't want to refund you).

You can ask Ewill, but I think extended warranty customers get a little more leway with claims.

heavymetals
01-01-08, 08:21 PM
Forget the wheel hop stuff if you ain't doing clutch dumps or playing rompum stompum.

I went with BMR trailing arms and toerods just because they are beefier and they got rid of the spongieness of the original part.

lunarx
01-01-08, 08:23 PM
What Heavy said.

The closer you leave the car to stock the better for your extended warranty.

Asking a dealer to look the other way on a Maggie and Corsa is somewhat within reason.
Go too overboard and they have no choice but to deny you.
A Kars or BMR is a clue that you launch hard.

I would recommend the Specter Works Cradle-Bushings though.
My car has the solid-aluminum equivalents of the SW Bushings.

The Corsa will remain civil with stock cats and manifolds.
Once you get hedars and HF Cats it's very loud.
Miracilously it still will not drone on the highway.
So if you have it, run it.

Headers are only $1.5K away, but I say hold off unless you really feel you need them.
I won't bring up all the negatives to headers, because we all realize it's a trade-off for the power.

Personally, I would only run them on a H/C car since a Maggie car can get by w/o them just fine.

Slaigher
01-01-08, 08:48 PM
My setup: maggie, B&B headers/xpipe.went from 330/330 to 390/390 approx. with the maggie tune. dyno tune will push those #'s up some, but I'm happy with it for now.
I don't do hard launches because of the severe hop, but rolling romps are no problem.
I'm waiting to see if warranty issues come up. Although my dealer tried to blame maggie for my cracked windshield, they did replace it under warranty, so hopefully they are reasonable if needed the future.

rand49er
01-01-08, 08:57 PM
Ernie ... er-r, I mean lunarx ... has a good point. Doing just the maggie and a StealthV tune (he has refined it quite well btw) might be the best way to go to please both you and your wife ... quiet and quick.

Dyno? Did mine just before the maggie (had Kooks, StealthV tune, etc.) and got about 350 RWHP. Didn't do it prior (i.e. bone stock), but think it was probably around 320-325 RWHP. I would guestimate that you'd be leaving around 30-ish hp behind NOT doing the headers/exhaust with a maggie. So, figure on maybe just over 400 RWHP ... maybe 410-ish(?) depending on pulley size. Hope to dyno mine again this spring sometime and would love to see 440-450 RWHP.

Not to belabor the point, but another way to look at what hp to expect is to use the pressure the maggie generates to estimate the hp. For example, if we're getting, say, 325 RWHP at atmospheric pressure (14.7 psi at sea level) and assume a volumetric efficiency of, say, about 90%, that would mean that a maggie generating, say, 6 psi boost with similar vol eff should yield in the neighborhood of 458 RWHP. Why don't we actually quite achieve this calculated hp in the real world? You got me.

Back to Ernie's suggestion ... it's simple ... I like it! :D

Dennisscars
01-01-08, 09:07 PM
JFunny, but my maggie doesn't have the characteristic 'whine' that others have talked about here and that ronr's V has. (I had the opportunity to drive his once ... it sold me on getting one. :bouncy:)
... it's the 'wine.' :alchi:

GOOD God... man you don't have the whine?? THAT's the best part!!

Whine 1 (http://picasaweb.google.com/dennisscars/LagunaSeca7_8Jan06/photo#5018269297748784770)

Coming out of pits. (http://picasaweb.google.com/dennisscars/Buttonwillow27July07/photo?authkey=-o1NvD5PoZs#5092676645135020818)

Let me introduce you to her little sister "Mini" maggie (http://picasaweb.google.com/dennisscars/LagunaSecaDec2007/photo?authkey=-luV2SmzNUg#5140697301559246930)

And before you flame about the poot can.. it's to get below 92 dB...

wildwhl
01-01-08, 11:51 PM
My vote:

Stock intake with drop in filter + Maggie + StealthV tune + RT cats + Corsa (since you already have it, right?). Maybe a tiny pulley change too :)

WW

SuperV_Rob
01-02-08, 12:53 AM
Okay guys, if I am reading the dyno charts correctly on StealthV's site http://www.stealthv.com/calibration_dyno.htm then the difference between the dyno chart labeled:

1) GM's 2005 CTS-V - Magnuson supercharger, 2.6" pulley, SW headers, RT converters, Corsa, Volant, StealthPower
- which once again if it says what I think it says it has a max RWHP of 477.54 and torque of 460.61

and the dyno chart labeled as:

2) GT's 2004 CTS-V - Magnuson supercharger, 2.8" pulley, cast iron manifolds, Magnaflow exhaust, StealthPower
-which appears to have a max RWHP of 461.51 and torque of 450.8

So, can I conclude that the #1 car with it's smaller pulley, cold air intake, cats, and headers is only producing an additional 16+- RWHP and 10+- torque?

If so, then I would have to say that the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) or in this case the KICS (Keep It Cheap Stupid) advise is the best advise I have probably ever received?

Did I miss something, I am by no means an expert but this looks like it tells the whole story?

Thanks again to all that have responded and I apologize in advance if this is a stupid question!

Seattle CTS-V
01-02-08, 01:12 AM
Okay guys, if I am reading the dyno charts correctly on StealthV's site http://www.stealthv.com/calibration_dyno.htm then the difference between the dyno chart labeled:

1) GM's 2005 CTS-V - Magnuson supercharger, 2.6" pulley, SW headers, RT converters, Corsa, Volant, StealthPower
- which once again if it says what I think it says it has a max RWHP of 477.54 and torque of 460.61

and the dyno chart labeled as:

2) GT's 2004 CTS-V - Magnuson supercharger, 2.8" pulley, cast iron manifolds, Magnaflow exhaust, StealthPower
-which appears to have a max RWHP of 461.51 and torque of 450.8

So, can I conclude that the #1 car with it's smaller pulley, cold air intake, cats, and headers is only producing an additional 16+- RWHP and 10+- torque?

If so, then I would have to say that the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) or in this case the KICS (Keep It Cheap Stupid) advise is the best advise I have probably ever received?

Did I miss something, I am by no means an expert but this looks like it tells the whole story?

Thanks again to all that have responded and I apologize in advance if this is a stupid question!


I wouldn't bet on those dyno numbers for comparison. Different dynos, different temps, different cars. The 2.6" pulley is supposed to be good for much more than 16hp/10tq. I believe it gives you over 1 lb of boost. I'd guess more like 30hp/tq at the wheels after the Stealth tune.

I've added little bits over time and wish I had just ponied up in the beginning and did the Maggie+headers+exhaust+tune at the same time. You're going to get the bug anyway and want to add all the pieces so just do it from the beginning and save yourself a ton of down time and installation costs!

Warranty...hmmm. I've been really lucky with my dealership. They've replaced 3 diffs under warranty and I'm pretty modded (and have the KARS kit). Good luck!

lunarx
01-02-08, 01:18 AM
Different Dynos so it's hard to compare the numbers.

Headers will help, but by how much and at what RPM is hard to quantify.

Every single performance shop out there will insist that you need headers.
However, it really depends on what you want from the car.

Are you ready for a burly beast or do you still want to preserve the stock like civility?

SuperV_Rob
01-02-08, 06:43 AM
Different Dynos so it's hard to compare the numbers.

Headers will help, but by how much and at what RPM is hard to quantify.

Every single performance shop out there will insist that you need headers.
However, it really depends on what you want from the car.

Are you ready for a burly beast or do you still want to preserve the stock like civility?

Lunarx,

I already have a 9 car garage full of burley beasts (my wifes point) :) This is supposed to be my daily driver so it was supposed to be done with civility in mind. As I am sure is the case with everyone in mod hell, I just want to get the most bang for my buck! From the numbers that I came across above, it does seem like the maggie itself is the single largest contributor to both RWHP and RWT. This of course makes me very happy because it leads me to believe that the corsa cat back, maggie, and racing suspension mods will make the spirited daily driver into a mini-beast! But keep it civil enough to make the wife happy on the occasions she is in the car :) I would like to keep the current dependability and feel confident that I will get from point A to point B without encountering an issues created by a mod gone bad! With this said, given everything that I have read here, the headers , cats, and additional heat are problematic over time and can often contribute to owner frustration. In the real world, I not certain that my seat of the pants dyno will know the HP difference and without them many have said that the dealer "Might" honor continue to honor my warranty! I seriously appreciate every persons opinion but the truth is I am not out to build another hot rod or race car, I just want to have an awesome daily driver that puts a smile on my face every time I hit the pedal! Thanks to all of you for the invaluable information!

My Best,

Rob

rand49er
01-02-08, 07:02 AM
... I already have a 9 car garage full of burley beasts ...:worship:

If it's any consolation, my wife is a physician and has no interest in/knowledge of cars in general ... she couldn't care less. If my car was too brutish and loud, she would not be happy. As it is, she has no trouble with its sound and ride even when she gets paged and has to call the hospital while in it (which can be often). It's all in how YOU drive it while your wife is in it. ;)

stkshkr
01-02-08, 03:51 PM
Here's the difference between 2.8 and 2.6 pulley, same dyno, same mods.

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/1/115493416.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=7402100)

rand49er
01-02-08, 04:09 PM
Whoa! Forty-four-and-a-half HP!!! :eek:

I assume no change in tune? So, detonation is not encountered at the higher boost level (or at least it's sensed and there's sufficient leaway to back off a couple of degrees as necessary)?

Hmm-m ... I believe I recall Luke having access to those 2.6" pulleys ... :hmm:.

lunarx
01-02-08, 04:17 PM
I would hope a new tune was part of that pulley swap.
I'm fairly certian Rick has that program.

I really would also hope 94 octane is available to people who run that pulley.
I would be scared to try it on crappy CA 91.

The Maggie has some sick low end torque.

stkshkr
01-02-08, 04:23 PM
Yes it was retuned by Rick and I run 93 octane with alcohol injection. I wouldn't recommend using the 2.6 without a retune, and w/o the alky... keep it rich and retarded.

rand49er
01-02-08, 04:31 PM
... I really would also hope 94 octane is available to people who run that pulley. ... The Maggie has some sick low end torque.Run nuthin' but 93 here in Mich so it might work for me. Gotta know about that tune first, though.

Torque? Went to the store the other day after being in Colorado skiing and away from the car for nearly a week. Accelerated a bit in 1st and eased it into 2nd, got into the throttle a bit (no where near WOT), and the back end started "getting out of shape." Ah-h yes! :cloud9:

Seattle CTS-V
01-02-08, 07:32 PM
^^It is a bit cold here in Seattle right now so the Toyo T1-R compound is a bit stiff. I have to be REALLY careful in 1st and 2nd and have to make sure I ease into 3rd or the back will step out.

Sometimes I come up to a light in 3rd and forget to put the car into 1st. Maggie makes so much torque down low that it really doesn't even matter that I've just started off the light in 3rd.

onebadcad
01-02-08, 11:24 PM
Whoa! Forty-four-and-a-half HP!!! :eek:



Damnnnnnnn, I am also impressed.
I ran with a 2.6" about 6 months after my install, but I was unable to get rid of the dreaded belt slippage. Since then, the Maggie has been rebuilt/overdriven, and Magnuson swapped the snout.
Of course the graph has me thinking again:).

trukk
01-03-08, 11:44 AM
... keep it rich and retarded.

LOL, that describes a WHOLE LOT of the forum members on here :thepan:

-Chris

SuperV_Rob
01-03-08, 05:57 PM
Here's the difference between 2.8 and 2.6 pulley, same dyno, same mods.

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/1/115493416.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=7402100)

All I can say is..... DAMNIT MAN, that is an incredible gain! Thanks again to everyone for all of the invaluable information. I now have a much better handle on all of the factors.

Many Thanks,

Rob

Venomous-V
01-04-08, 10:31 AM
So what is the secret behind avoiding belt slip with the 2.6?

rand49er
01-04-08, 11:21 AM
Use a Gatorback belt for one ... I do for my 2.8" pulley.

Don't know if there're more techniques out there.

stkshkr
01-04-08, 01:01 PM
Make sure you have the stablizer kit from Magunson (bolt to the cylinder Head), gatorback belt and use anti-slip belt spray or VHT. Replace belt often as it streches.