: Take off your "performance" intake. You'll thank me.



The Tony Show
12-27-07, 11:41 AM
Warning: The following information is not dyno tested- it has been gathered by my finely calibrated butt-dyno and ears.



I put a Lingenfelter "Performance" air intake on my car about a year ago. I didn't like that the car lost bottom end torque in exchange for 2 or 3 top end hp, so I took it off. Since then, I've added Kooks long tubes, Stealth tune and a lightweight flywheel, so a few months ago I figured I'd put the intake back on as it would compliment those mods.

Well, I've been getting annoyed by the constant popping and backfiring when the engine's cold, as well as the jerky decel when I let off the throttle in gear. Everyone suggested to check for leaks, which I've done a bunch of times and there are none.

Point of story:

I took it off again last night and reinstalled my stock airbox with a K&N panel filter in it- what a difference. The car no longer jerks on decel, it doesn't pop out the exhaust when I shift, and it gained back the lost bottom end torque.

One man's opinion: "Performance" air intakes for CTS-Vs are a cosmetic mod. The car runs better without them.

1FASTSS
12-27-07, 12:01 PM
I thought the Lingerenfilter box was just a filter and new shroud and still used the same intake tube?

I don't think you'd gain much from just a filter. Unless the intake tube is increased in size thats when you see a gain after additional supporting mods.

You must have lost a bunch of TQ down low if you noticed it by just driving around? Any dyno #'s?

JimmyH
12-27-07, 12:10 PM
One man's opinion: "Performance" air intakes for CTS-Vs are a cosmetic mod. The car runs better without them.


You can make that two men's opinion.


Although I think the K&N panel is a waste too. Tried it and it was more trouble that it is worth. Plus, consumer reports, or somebody, tested them and found that a brand new paper filter passes more air than a new or cleaned&oiled K&N. I change my air filter every other oil change. Not to mention God help you and your MAF if you even slightly over oil it.

And I just love those goofy cone filters. "Yeah, lets see, let me pull in dirty, hot air from the engine bay, that is sure to give me more power." :lol:

urbanski
12-27-07, 12:14 PM
rick can tune out the popping.

The Tony Show
12-27-07, 12:16 PM
The Lingenfelter includes a nifty little divider shroud that blocks the filter from the engine air- it pulls from the front grill and a hole going into the fender. The "thinking" behind it is that the huge frackin' cone filter has more surface area, therefore can pull more air into the tube. The idea that you can't get more air without replacing the tube is valid ONLY if the stock airbox is maxing out the capacity of the tube, which I suspect is not true at low RPMs- hence the torque loss.

The power really isn't the reason I dislike it so much. Maybe it's the combination of mods I have, but the car drives so much better with the stock box. As already mentioned, it jerked when I let off the throttle in gear and spit and backfired when the engine was cold.

RunningOnEMT
12-27-07, 12:16 PM
i'll switch it at lunch ... have all my parts here at my office.

The Tony Show
12-27-07, 12:18 PM
rick can tune out the popping.

My tune is set for "no-pop" already. This wasn't the little popcorn noise on decel, either- it literally backfired on the 1-2 and 3-4 shift until the engine was warmed up.

WoooooooOOOOOO- POW! - WoooooooOOOOOOO - POW!

Any mechanic will tell you that backfiring is usually an intake leak. In this case, it's just too much air.

GMBOUND
12-27-07, 02:14 PM
WoooooooOOOOOO- POW! - WoooooooOOOOOOO - POW!



Great illustration:yup:

Silver Dollar
12-27-07, 02:51 PM
....WoooooooOOOOOO-WoooooooOOOOOOO......


Sounds like your whistle tips need calibration.

The whistles go Wooo WOOOoo.

The Tony Show
12-27-07, 02:53 PM
Das jus fo decorashun.

nikon
12-27-07, 05:30 PM
Sounds like your whistle tips need calibration.

The whistles go Wooo WOOOoo.

:histeric:

CBVLS6
12-27-07, 06:44 PM
Sounds like your whistle tips need calibration.

The whistles go Wooo WOOOoo.

..lol.

Silver Dollar
12-27-07, 10:10 PM
Happy New Year Tony! (http://bubbrain.ytmnd.com/)

JBCTSV
12-27-07, 10:43 PM
Guys,
I disagree with the K&N does not work theory. I have used the filters and cold air on various GM V8's and I have never had a torque loss or power loss due to the cold air induction or filter. Every car I have has a filter and they yield better mileage and with exhaust and/or headers I have always had a performance increase.
Did you remove your cats? I think a performance tune is definitely in order.

Just my $.02

The Tony Show
12-27-07, 10:52 PM
Thanks for the thoughts, but I stated that I have a K&N panel filter in my stock airbox- my beef is not with the type of filter material, but the huge cone "cold air" intakes that K&N and Lingenfelter sell. The stock airbox does a better job of bringing cool air into the engine than the cone, and provides a proper amount of airflow for the intake tube and throttle body this car has. I've used cone filters on previous cars with good success, but it's a pile of crap on a CTS-V.

I also already have a tuned PCM and am running cats, so that idea's out.

JimmyH
12-27-07, 11:14 PM
Guys,
I disagree with the K&N does not work theory. I have used the filters and cold air on various GM V8's and I have never had a torque loss or power loss due to the cold air induction or filter. Every car I have has a filter and they yield better mileage and with exhaust and/or headers I have always had a performance increase.
Did you remove your cats? I think a performance tune is definitely in order.

Just my $.02

it is really easy to rationalize one of these filters when you just dropped $100 on one.


The only advantage the K&N has is that it maintains more airflow than a paper one as it gets dirty.

Numbers dont lie. New paper filter>K&N. I wish I could find that damn test, but CR does not have it on their website anymore.

Nutz
12-28-07, 12:09 AM
It is my experience that an engine will make noticeable horsepower from an external source only due to extreme pressures or temperature changes. Fuel pressure or air pressure (forced induction) mostly. The motor does not feel "help" being "offered" externally (such as a filter) unless it is a force that is stronger than it's natural ability to rotate. An intake threshold point of entry (throttle location) is generally going to have a stable cfm reading regardless of whats going on before it (it's almost inevitable in order for the Block Learn Multipliers to be effective). In the 80's every owner of a Grand National gutted the headlight bucket for a "ram air" tube, or bought a lower front spoiler that had a scoop much like that of the 69 olds 442 (dryer vent hose) system under the bumper. Now after hooking up laptops with very sensitive software reading the o2 sensor, it has proven a waste to have a "ram air" kit on a car. Now you are hard pressed to see anything mounted on the front of one. Think about it... a car travelling 80 m.p.h. only has an 80 m.p.h. headwind push, hardly helpful in a system that is creating a vortex somewhere in the neighborhood of 900 cfm. It is no doubt fun to hear the engine responding through a open system though. But the stoich mixture is going to be unstable when it is exposed to an air system that is sensitive to air changes, causing the computer to constanlty adjust. I realize the V is not a forced intake car also, but I believe the same theory applies.


My too scents...

type911
12-28-07, 12:41 AM
I think the majority of problems is tuning. Nothing against stealthV. If I was closer I would love to have them do the tune on My car. However people do these Mail order tunes when every car is different. You can datalog and mail back and forth but that seams like such a PIA. If you add some Bolt-ons or FI and go with a MO tune you are asking for trouble unless you spend the time datalogging and finetuning through the mail. I would rather have my tune done on a dyno and have it specifically written for my App. Every car is different because of factory tolerances alone. I cant tell you how many mail order tunes cause driveability issues because there app may be slightly different than the original.

Scatillac
12-28-07, 08:29 AM
While the stock air box may be adequate for a stock displacement engine with little or no modifications, it's woefully inadequate for a larger engine (any 400+ cid).

With my car (LS7) under full throttle on a chassis dyno, the stock intake tube has a very noticeable deformation (collapse) while the same tube with the LPE air filter exhibits less than 1/8" deformation. :eek:

If you tinker around with cars much, you'll find that an infrared/laser heat sensor gun is very handy and can tell you all sorts of things.

Drive your V around a bit to warm it up to operating temperature, but more importantly, raising the underhood temperature to normal conditions. Then, if you'll take an infrared temp reading of the respective assemblies, the one thing that's readily apparent is the high temperature of the MAF housing, which is where your IAT sensor lives. Guess what has more of an impact on your fuel mixture? Use heat shielding tape here? You bet!

With the LPE unit, there are two areas that can pass engine compartment air, the first is where the baffle meets the inside of the fender and the second is the underside of the hood in the area just forward of where the LPE gasket meets the upper radiator baffle. A bit of dark gray foam fixes both nicely. :yup:

Finally, it's all about the details of your individual vehicle. If you have any biker buddies, how many of them have put on pipes and not rejetted and then complained about loss of performance or rideability issues? It's the same principal here. You may or may not have to have your car retuned, depending on your vehicle and your particular climate.

The Tony Show
12-28-07, 10:03 AM
the stoich mixture is going to be unstable when it is exposed to an air system that is sensitive to air changes, causing the computer to constanlty adjust.

Exactly. I've stated before (when arguing about air intakes) that one of the best reasons to keep the stock airbox is that it acts like a "regulator"- that is, it ensures the incoming air is always a similar temperature and amount. While this may be a higher temperature and lower amount than a cone style filter, I appreciate the consistency of the engine performance at any speed or temperature.

A cone intake is worthless to me if the car only drives well when the temperature is low, my speed is above 55, there's a 1/4 moon and Mercury is obscured by Venus. A mod that causes the car to buck and backfire when I let off the throttle every time the weather changes is a crappy mod- I'll take my 4 fewer horsepower in return for a consistent level of performance and driving behavior.

TaVern
12-28-07, 01:02 PM
Interesting thread, Tony. I've got the Lingenfelter on my car and experience the same effect. I had no idea it could be eliminated with the stock air box on...

Thanks for the info.

trukk
12-28-07, 01:21 PM
The issue with this thread, is that everyone is basically right.

An LPE CAI makes sense only in certain situations. If you are going to do a lot of mods to the car, then you will eventually need to upgrade that part of the intake tract. For people with only a few bolt-on's it doesn't make much of a difference, and untill you get the thing settled in (it took my about 6 months, to figure out the exact best way to have my LPE CAI positioned and installed, so I wouldn't have leaks), it's going to be a PITA.

So whadya need to make the car go faster? Fuel, Air and Spark. In this case we are obviously talking about air. Now does adding more air necesarily make your car go faster? Not in all situations. It will usually help in the higher RPM's but the lower velocity of the air at lower RPM's which hurts the tourque.

With that said. Take a look at our intake tract:

Airbox
Filter
Maf
Intake tube
Throltle body
ManifoldIf you want to increase the flow here, you start with the most restrictive and work your way up. Now, I haven't flow tested these parts, so my order will be my best guess (feel free to chime in if you have another opinion here.) In order from most to least restricitve:

Intake tube
Airbox
Filter
Throttle Body
Manifold
MAFWhen Rick first designed and released his FFV, why do you think he went with a replacement Intake tube? That thing is definately restrictive. So for all you folks that have put in LPE CAI's (or the K&N's or Volants), and haven't replaced your intake tube, about the only thing you've done, is make the car look good (in your opinion), sound different, and added another bit that requires maintenance and monitoring. This is in line with what Tony has said.

One of my first mods was an LPE CAI. Aside from the sound, and a slight increase in the butt dyno (as Luna has stated a bunch, butt dyno registers most from a thinner wallet under your @ss), it didn't show much in the way of gains. I have a dyno thread on this mod here (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum/56069-lpe-cai-dyno-results-before-after.html#post489705). Results were:
.....Peak Gain:
.....+8.9 RWHP 3% Gain (295.5 @6150 vs. 304.4 @6350)
.....+2.8 RWTQ 1% Gain (285.2 @4900 vs. 288.0 @4850)

.....Baseline made more HP up to about 4600, where newer run surpasses it
.....Baseline made more TQ up to about 4400, where newer run surpasses it

.....It would appear from the graph, that I gained up high, but lost more down low.

About 6 months later I swpped in a Ported Throttle body. I didn't dyno the change, but I felt absolutely nothing in the Butt dyno. about 6 months after that I swapped out the intake tube, and couldn't believe the difference. Again I didn't dyno that change, but you could really feel the difference. By changing out the most resprictive piece in the intake tract, it allowed me to get cumulative gains from my other changes (LPE & TB).

At this point, I've replaced everything in my intake tract except the MAF. Now keep in mind that you aren't going to see total gains from these mods, unless you also open up the breathing of the combustion chamber with cam & heads mods. Of course you'll also need to open up the exhaust too, with headers, free flowing cats (or none), and a free flowing cat back (although the stocker flows pretty well).

Anyway, it's not just one mod here one mod there, it's how you plan the mods, and make them all work together as one system.

My $0.02. Happy Modding.

-Chris

P.S. In reference to Tony's popping issue with the LPE. I've never had that with mine. I'd expect it was either an unseen airleak, or a tune issue. Airleaks are hard to track down unless you have a smoke machine.

crankedupforit
12-28-07, 01:37 PM
Chris
With an 18% loss to the rear wheels your engine would dyno at the fly wheel at 460HP. I forgot what your numbers were before when you were running the Katech ported TB. In any case, I think the numbers you are putting up are pretty amazing, especially on a Mustang dyno. $ for $ it's a cost effective project with little warranty impact. I agree with your premise that finding the right combination of bolt on mods is the key to a CAI's value. Your approach was dead on. BTW how satisfied are you with the newest mods (intake and TB)? What was your overall gain?

trukk
12-28-07, 02:10 PM
Chris
With an 18% loss to the rear wheels your engine would dyno at the fly wheel at 460HP. I forgot what your numbers were before when you were running the Katech ported TB. In any case, I think the numbers you are putting up are pretty amazing, especially on a Mustang dyno. $ for $ it's a cost effective project with little warranty impact. I agree with your premise that finding the right combination of bolt on mods is the key to a CAI's value. Your approach was dead on. BTW how satisfied are you with the newest mods (intake and TB)? What was your overall gain?

Here's my thread about the Manifold /Tb swap:

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum/124436-stock-head-cam-346-ls6-w.html

In a nutshell:

+9 peak rwhp
-3 peak rwtq
-9 average HP
-4 average TQI lost a fair amount under the curve (before after intersected at about 5500 RPM's). If this was all I was going to do, I'd be pissed, quite frankly. BUT, This was just me wrapping up the bolt-on's before moving on the Cam, then heads.

As for the Cost effectiveness of that particular mod, I spent approx 2k, for the TB, Manifold, Porting, Install and Dyno tune, so if I was going to step there, defintaley NOT a good investment.

I'm hoping to be in the 420ish range with my cam install, and then 460+(ish) (this might be a stretch) with premium heads. I don;t think I'd be able to get as high as I hope if I didn't go all out on the supporting mods. I guess we'll see. I'll definately post my results.

-Chris

JBCTSV
12-28-07, 03:26 PM
Well said and researched. Thanks guys. You guys are not helping with my "Mod Fever"

Twitch
12-28-07, 07:11 PM
DUDE, you bash the intake, then try to sell it to us????:ripped:

trukk
12-28-07, 07:20 PM
DUDE, you bash the intake, then try to sell it to us????:ripped:
LOL, his loss is your gain man. Caveat Emptor.

It may not makes sense for him and his goals, and it may be all good for you.

Tony's a stand up guy. He could have just plopped his LPE in the classifieds, and never posted this thread, but he wanted to add to the forum, so he posted this. Big ups to him (I don't totaly agree with his assesment of the value of the LPE, but do respect his opinion.)

-Chris

CTSV_Rob
12-28-07, 07:30 PM
The issue with this thread, is that everyone is basically right.

An LPE CAI makes sense only in certain situations. If you are going to do a lot of mods to the car, then you will eventually need to upgrade that part of the intake tract. For people with only a few bolt-on's it doesn't make much of a difference, and untill you get the thing settled in (it took my about 6 months, to figure out the exact best way to have my LPE CAI positioned and installed, so I wouldn't have leaks), it's going to be a PITA.

So whadya need to make the car go faster? Fuel, Air and Spark. In this case we are obviously talking about air. Now does adding more air necesarily make your car go faster? Not in all situations. It will usually help in the higher RPM's but the lower velocity of the air at lower RPM's which hurts the tourque.

With that said. Take a look at our intake tract:

Airbox
Filter
Maf
Intake tube
Throltle body
ManifoldIf you want to increase the flow here, you start with the most restrictive and work your way up. Now, I haven't flow tested these parts, so my order will be my best guess (feel free to chime in if you have another opinion here.) In order from most to least restricitve:

Intake tube
Airbox
Filter
Throttle Body
Manifold
MAFWhen Rick first designed and released his FFV, why do you think he went with a replacement Intake tube? That thing is definately restrictive. So for all you folks that have put in LPE CAI's (or the K&N's or Volants), and haven't replaced your intake tube, about the only thing you've done, is make the car look good (in your opinion), sound different, and added another bit that requires maintenance and monitoring. This is in line with what Tony has said.

One of my first mods was an LPE CAI. Aside from the sound, and a slight increase in the butt dyno (as Luna has stated a bunch, butt dyno registers most from a thinner wallet under your @ss), it didn't show much in the way of gains. I have a dyno thread on this mod here (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum/56069-lpe-cai-dyno-results-before-after.html#post489705). Results were:
.....Peak Gain:
.....+8.9 RWHP 3% Gain (295.5 @6150 vs. 304.4 @6350)
.....+2.8 RWTQ 1% Gain (285.2 @4900 vs. 288.0 @4850)

.....Baseline made more HP up to about 4600, where newer run surpasses it
.....Baseline made more TQ up to about 4400, where newer run surpasses it

.....It would appear from the graph, that I gained up high, but lost more down low.

About 6 months later I swpped in a Ported Throttle body. I didn't dyno the change, but I felt absolutely nothing in the Butt dyno. about 6 months after that I swapped out the intake tube, and couldn't believe the difference. Again I didn't dyno that change, but you could really feel the difference. By changing out the most resprictive piece in the intake tract, it allowed me to get cumulative gains from my other changes (LPE & TB).

At this point, I've replaced everything in my intake tract except the MAF. Now keep in mind that you aren't going to see total gains from these mods, unless you also open up the breathing of the combustion chamber with cam & heads mods. Of course you'll also need to open up the exhaust too, with headers, free flowing cats (or none), and a free flowing cat back (although the stocker flows pretty well).

Anyway, it's not just one mod here one mod there, it's how you plan the mods, and make them all work together as one system.

My $0.02. Happy Modding.

-Chris

P.S. In reference to Tony's popping issue with the LPE. I've never had that with mine. I'd expect it was either an unseen airleak, or a tune issue. Airleaks are hard to track down unless you have a smoke machine.
Great write up Chris and it all makes sense.

I would just like to point out that your list is for the LS6 and may not apply directly to the LS2 setup. Since our throttle body is already 90mm I think this would move it to the bottom of the list.

In order from most to least restricitve (LS2):

Intake tube
Filter
Airbox (Extra hole in the side)
MAF (Much smaller then my throttle body with a good size bar in the middle)
Manifold
Throttle BodyIf they breathe better they usually go better but there are trade off's. Next Major mod planned is the Head and cams for me but I am still in the research phase. I am leaning toward the L92's (ported) with that new manifold that Ernie found plus a Cam. Not sure who to get the cam from at this point but I'm sure there are a lot of good companies that will do a reasonable grind.

my 0.02.

Twitch
12-28-07, 07:33 PM
LOL, his loss is your gain man. Caveat Emptor.

It may not makes sense for him and his goals, and it may be all good for you.

Tony's a stand up guy. He could have just plopped his LPE in the classifieds, and never posted this thread, but he wanted to add to the forum, so he posted this. Big ups to him (I don't totaly agree with his assesment of the value of the LPE, but do respect his opinion.)

-Chris

I hear ya,,,I'd buy it if I didn't already have one.

Bad timing, cuz I just got the parts to build my "custom intake tube" today.
Not expecting much. But if it sounds a bit louder, I'll be happy.
PS Thinking about a cam down the road. I'll be looking for your post-up when you get yours.

CTSV_Rob
12-28-07, 07:36 PM
I hear ya,,,I'd buy it if I didn't already have one.

Bad timing, cuz I just got the parts to build my "custom intake tube" today.
Not expecting much. But if it sounds a bit louder, I'll be happy.
PS Thinking about a cam down the road. I'll be looking for your post-up when you get yours.
So did you go with a plastic pipe or an aluminum pipe?

lunarx
12-28-07, 07:53 PM
LOL, his loss is your gain man. Caveat Emptor.

It may not makes sense for him and his goals, and it may be all good for you.

Tony's a stand up guy. He could have just plopped his LPE in the classifieds, and never posted this thread, but he wanted to add to the forum, so he posted this. Big ups to him (I don't totaly agree with his assesment of the value of the LPE, but do respect his opinion.)

-Chris
Agreed, the LPE works, as that is what I have.
However, I have a custom intake tube (did not re-use stock tube).

I like the appearance of stock or Volant better, so I may change to one of those.

Anyone selling a Stock or Volant intake?

The Tony Show
12-28-07, 10:25 PM
DUDE, you bash the intake, then try to sell it to us????:ripped:

What would you suggest- saying nothing and lying in my Classified ad about how great it is?

There's a lot of people who disagree with my opinion of the intake. If you think it's great, you can have it for a good price. There's also people building custom intakes who might want it for the filter and divider. One man's trash is another's treasure.

Thanks for the kind words, Trukk. :thumbsup:

JonCR96Z
12-29-07, 12:31 AM
Here's my thread about the Manifold /Tb swap:

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum/124436-stock-head-cam-346-ls6-w.html

In a nutshell:
+9 peak rwhp
-3 peak rwtq
-9 average HP
-4 average TQI lost a fair amount under the curve (before after intersected at about 5500 RPM's). If this was all I was going to do, I'd be pissed, quite frankly. BUT, This was just me wrapping up the bolt-on's before moving on the Cam, then heads.

As for the Cost effectiveness of that particular mod, I spent approx 2k, for the TB, Manifold, Porting, Install and Dyno tune, so if I was going to step there, defintaley NOT a good investment.

I'm hoping to be in the 420ish range with my cam install, and then 460+(ish) (this might be a stretch) with premium heads. I don;t think I'd be able to get as high as I hope if I didn't go all out on the supporting mods. I guess we'll see. I'll definately post my results.

-Chris

I think you should be doing more that 420ish with the cam. Premium heads will help you up top but will mainly help your low rpm air speed. That is me assuming that you'll be doing AFR 205s and not 225s. I think you'll do 435-440 with stock heads. With AFR heads maybe 15-20 more up top and about 30-40 more under the curve.

Jon

Twitch
12-29-07, 02:30 AM
What would you suggest- saying nothing and lying in my Classified ad about how great it is?

There's a lot of people who disagree with my opinion of the intake. If you think it's great, you can have it for a good price. There's also people building custom intakes who might want it for the filter and divider. One man's trash is another's treasure.

Thanks for the kind words, Trukk. :thumbsup:

Just bustin your chops. Already have one, but I'd rather buy it from someone like you than a guy telling me it'll give me 15hp.

trukk
12-29-07, 01:04 PM
I think you should be doing more that 420ish with the cam. Premium heads will help you up top but will mainly help your low rpm air speed. That is me assuming that you'll be doing AFR 205s and not 225s. I think you'll do 435-440 with stock heads. With AFR heads maybe 15-20 more up top and about 30-40 more under the curve.

Jon

I'll let everyone know for sure. Who knows. Patrick G said he expected about 40ish HP with the cam he spec'd out. If it's more, I'll be happy. If it's less I won;t exactly be happy, but you never know how all the bits will interact with each other. If I hit 420, all is good.

As for the heads, I'm planning on AFR 205's, or maybe Trickflow 215's, or on the outside, some ETP's. Most probabaly the 205's since they are tried and true. I was expecting a bit more than 15-20 out of them, but who knows. Again, we'll see. Those won't be for a while though.


Great write up Chris and it all makes sense.

I would just like to point out that your list is for the LS6 and may not apply directly to the LS2 setup. Since our throttle body is already 90mm I think this would move it to the bottom of the list.

In order from most to least restricitve (LS2):

Intake tube
Filter
Airbox (Extra hole in the side)
MAF (Much smaller then my throttle body with a good size bar in the middle)
Manifold
Throttle BodyIf they breathe better they usually go better but there are trade off's. Next Major mod planned is the Head and cams for me but I am still in the research phase. I am leaning toward the L92's (ported) with that new manifold that Ernie found plus a Cam. Not sure who to get the cam from at this point but I'm sure there are a lot of good companies that will do a reasonable grind.

my 0.02.

You were definately right about me specing for the LS6, Vice the LS2. I agree with part of your list. Swapping 2&3 sounds right. I don;t agree about the TB, Manifold and MAF though. For an LS2 I'd think it would be:


Intake tube
Filter
Airbox (Extra hole in the side)
Manifold (LS2 manifold doesn't flow as well as the LS6, even with a 90mm hole in it. They can be ported a bit, unline the LS6, but the consensus seems to be stock for stock the LS6 is better.)
Throttle Body. (Yes it's a 90mm, but it's still stock.
MAF (From everything I've read, even though it is 85mm, with a screen, the Delphi MAF flows very well, and doesn't seem to be much of a bottleneck at all. People seem to think it's much more advantageous to port a 90mm stock TB, or go with an aftermarket 90mm, before porting the Delphi 85mm. Seems a bit odd, but that's what I've read).This has been a good thread, I think.

-Chris

lunarx
12-29-07, 01:22 PM
This is definetly good stuff.

So if:

Panel Filter is the 2nd largest intake restriction
and
paper filter outflows a K&N drop-in

Why would the aftermarket intakes not be a good idea?
Will their cone filters not outflow a panel filter? :hmm:

I agree, LPE makes no sense with stock intake tube.

The Volant provides a new intake tube.
Where would the Volant intake tube land in the restriction department?

ssmith100
12-29-07, 01:29 PM
I'll post my 2 cents. I've got the LPE with a Volant intake tube and ...............I think my car ran better with the factory box. My low end torque really took a hit with the LPE and Volant tube. It looks pretty though.:rolleyes:

Shane

CTSV_Rob
12-29-07, 04:04 PM
You were definately right about me specing for the LS6, Vice the LS2. I agree with part of your list. Swapping 2&3 sounds right. I don;t agree about the TB, Manifold and MAF though. For an LS2 I'd think it would be:


Intake tube
Filter
Airbox (Extra hole in the side)
Manifold (LS2 manifold doesn't flow as well as the LS6, even with a 90mm hole in it. They can be ported a bit, unline the LS6, but the consensus seems to be stock for stock the LS6 is better.)
Throttle Body. (Yes it's a 90mm, but it's still stock.
MAF (From everything I've read, even though it is 85mm, with a screen, the Delphi MAF flows very well, and doesn't seem to be much of a bottleneck at all. People seem to think it's much more advantageous to port a 90mm stock TB, or go with an aftermarket 90mm, before porting the Delphi 85mm. Seems a bit odd, but that's what I've read).This has been a good thread, I think.

-Chris
Good stuff Chris,

Sorry Tony for the Thread Jack...

4. I have done some research this morning and the only comparisions I could find between the 3 manifolds, LS2, LS6, and FAST were done on a LS1. Since the LS2 is redesigned I would assume that GM would have done their homework and the LS2 setup should work better with the LS2 but I have nothing to back this up.

Do you have any numbers comparing the 2? Not a big deal I'm just curious because in the end the intake is going anyways. It will either be the new Intake Ernie found (forgot the name of the company) or it will be the L76 manifold and either will be with the 90mm throttle body.

The restructure looks good to me, but I still think the MAF needs more attention then the TB but you are making me rethink that.

With what I was planning to do any TB or MAF modifications would be on the botttom and I wasn't planning on doing anything with them anyways. Now you have me wondering if I would get any gains from a different throttle body. The one in my car looks nice but I do see some room for improvement.

Just a quick list of what I am thinking about doing to my LS2:
- L92 Heads, ported with better valves and springs
- Mild Cam, still need to pass smog
- Intake to be either the L76 or the Weiand Street Warrior?
- Just need to get a 3.5 inch plastic tube and the Home grown FFV will be done. Tried it with the aluminum pipe and it got waaaay too hot, Sure I was loosing power.
- Injectors ???
- Throttle body ?? (wasn't planning on doing anything with it but now....)

So for Grins what would you recommend for,
Intake -

Throttle body (Port or replace) -

Injectors (Size and Make) -

Cam -

It seems like you have put a lot of thought into this build and I would greatly appreciate your input.

Chef
12-29-07, 04:40 PM
A picture is worth a thousand words....

:highfive:


http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l78/ChefsVenom/4272-good.jpg

CTSV_Rob
12-29-07, 04:56 PM
:drool:

trukk
12-29-07, 06:08 PM
I'll post my 2 cents. I've got the LPE with a Volant intake tube and ...............I think my car ran better with the factory box. My low end torque really took a hit with the LPE and Volant tube. It looks pretty though.:rolleyes:

Shane

Shane,

I don;t really like that way that Volant tube has the extra bend in it, to clear the pyulley/radiator area. We already have enough bends in the intake tracts to 2 more. That's a big reason I went with the FFV. It's a straight show from the MAF/Filter to the single 90 Degree bend going to the TB.

-Chris


Good stuff Chris,

Sorry Tony for the Thread Jack...

Same here Tony. Also Rob, please keep in mind thaat I'm no means an expert at this stuff. I'm just posting my interpretation of what I've read on here and other sites. This is my first LSX based car, so please keep that in mind.


4. I have done some research this morning and the only comparisions I could find between the 3 manifolds, LS2, LS6, and FAST were done on a LS1. Since the LS2 is redesigned I would assume that GM would have done their homework and the LS2 setup should work better with the LS2 but I have nothing to back this up. I certainly haven't heard of anyone putting an LS6 manifold on an LS2, that's for sure. On the flip side, you don't see a single person running an LS1 swapping in an LS2/90 onto their car vs a LS6/78. I don't think either compare to a FAST90 either (as long as you are gonna do at least boltons + a cam.)


Do you have any numbers comparing the 2? Not a big deal I'm just curious because in the end the intake is going anyways. It will either be the new Intake Ernie found (forgot the name of the company) or it will be the L76 manifold and either will be with the 90mm throttle body.

You LS2 guys are lucky in the fact that you can go with the L92 heads / L76 intake route. Since they won't work on a 3.9x bore, us LS6 guys are left off of that train. To be honest I'm not sure why Ernie with his 427 is waiting on that intake. It will be cool for a 346, not reving high. from what I read it falls off after 6000 rpms. For s smaller cubed lightly moded car, I bet it would add a lot. If you are going to do boltons and then heads/cam, I wouldn;t wait on that intake (unless you ahve the time). I wouldn;t want to be a guiniea pig for it either (let other go through the initial products mod hell first).


The restructure looks good to me, but I still think the MAF needs more attention then the TB but you are making me rethink that.

With what I was planning to do any TB or MAF modifications would be on the botttom and I wasn't planning on doing anything with them anyways. Now you have me wondering if I would get any gains from a different throttle body. The one in my car looks nice but I do see some room for improvement.

Keep in mind that by opeing up the intake you are slowing the velocity of the air going into the chambers, which will hurt your low end Tq. Unless you have the cubes and or heads/cam to take advantage of that extra air.

I still think the TB is a restriction before the MAF. On a side note, texas-speed is comming out with a 100MM MAF in the next few weeks. It will probabaly be a few hundred bucks. Since it's a new MAF, you re definately going to need a tune with it (the MAF table needs to be changed). You could go that route, but I bet it would be overkill on anything stock cubed.


Just a quick list of what I am thinking about doing to my LS2:
- L92 Heads, ported with better valves and springs
Since I don't have an LS2, and can't get the L92's I haven't done a lot of research on them. It seems like they are starting to make a lot of power, espscially now that companies are starting to port the snot out of them. From what I have read though, that head seems to be very CAM dependant, much moreso than the ls6 cathedral design. It seems to be pretty easy to pick a non optimal cam and get some non-optimal results. Do your homework here.


- Mild Cam, still need to pass smog
See above about the cam.

- Intake to be either the L76 or the Weiand Street Warrior? I'd either go L76 or Fast90 if you are going stay with a cathedral head. Fast90 is proven, the other is not.

- Just need to get a 3.5 inch plastic tube and the Home grown FFV will be done. Tried it with the aluminum pipe and it got waaaay too hot, Sure I was loosing power.
I still have the aluminum tube. I haven't had a chance to swap mine out, or get it coated. I eventually will.

- Injectors ??? Like I said in an earlier post ( I think it was in this thread), at 380 rwhp, my Injector duty cycle was at 92%. While you can go over 100 for short bursts it's not really the best scenario. If it just every once in a while, no big deal. Since I run my car at the track and stay at high RPM's (+5000 most of the time) for most of the session, I am definately going to do something about the fueling when I do my cam. The options seem to be:

Bigger injectors. LSX injectors run at 58 Lbs/hr. Our stockers are 28 LBS/hr. Most people will do one of the following:
Run Lucas/Boch 42 lbers. This is good for a LOT of N/A HP. You're not gonna max these out with heads/cam or most strokers. I'm not sure but I think this might be an issue with the stock fuel pump.
Run Ford Racing 30 Lbs/hr SVO 'red tops'. These are rated at 30 lbs/hr for Fords, which run at a lower PSI than GM does. These are approx 36-38 lbs/hr at GM pressure. These are the ones I will probabaly go with.
Boosted stock fuel pump (stay w/ stock injectors). This is what Manuson does with their magnavolt. Kenne Bell also has a Boost-a-pump. Both of these send more current to the stock fuel pump to make it send more fuel. More pressure at the reails = more LBS/hr.
Higher flowing replacement fuel pump (stay w/ stock injectors). I haven't really looked into this. Most GM's have their fuel pump in the gas tank, so which a new fuel pump might only cost $200 bucks it's expensive to pull the tank off the car, to swap it out.

- Throttle body ?? (wasn't planning on doing anything with it but now....) I'd concider at least getting you LS2 ported. Probabaly not worth the time/money to go with an aftermarket.


So for Grins what would you recommend for,
Intake -

Throttle body (Port or replace) -

Injectors (Size and Make) -

Cam -

It seems like you have put a lot of thought into this build and I would greatly appreciate your input.


My #1 recommendation is do your homework, and research. Everyone and their mom thinks they know what's right for you and your car. In reality, you are the only one that does. The hard part is determinging why people recommend a certain product or approach, and if that fits with your goals, and how you plan to use the car.

Good luck, and please share what you decide, and your progress.

-Chris

Naf
12-29-07, 08:29 PM
I put on a 100mm (lingenfelter makes this MAF as well) intake on my previous vehicle and tuned her properly and i actually got gains across the board. My air restriction was reduced thus MORE air rushed in rather then havin more air velocity. You will then have to watch for heat. I wrapped my air tube sprayed my TB and heat guard to reduce radiant heat absorbance.

Your Stock tune isnt made for any changes in the air flow...If you change any aspect it will go into SAFE mod and flood in the fuel. Thus the poppin...MSD coils are a quick fix for that. Plus additional Earthing/Groundin really helps with low end torque...AH you all didnt see this mod did ya...

Quick fixes dont help, if you are going to change ANY aspect of airflow you have to tune and tune properly for your conditions...

JonCR96Z
12-29-07, 10:16 PM
you don't see a single person running an LS1 swapping in an LS2/90 onto their car vs a LS6/78

LS6 outflows the LS2 in stock form. LS1 guys would have to spend a bunch of money getting an LS2 on the car then it would need to be ported to see any gains. You could get a FAST for roughly the same price.



I'd either go L76 or Fast90 if you are going stay with a cathedral head. Fast90 is proven, the other is not.

FAST is working on a rectangle port version as we speak.



I'd concider at least getting you LS2 ported. Probabaly not worth the time/money to go with an aftermarket.

Ported LS2 flows as good as any aftermarket unit, and is easier to tune and cheaper to boot.



Most GM's have their fuel pump in the gas tank, so which a new fuel pump might only cost $200 bucks it's expensive to pull the tank off the car, to swap it out.

The secret to that is to leave the tank in place and make a trap door above the pump. I'll tell you how it works out when I get to it.



Jon

trukk
12-30-07, 11:38 AM
LS6 outflows the LS2 in stock form. LS1 guys would have to spend a bunch of money getting an LS2 on the car then it would need to be ported to see any gains. You could get a FAST for roughly the same price.




FAST is working on a rectangle port version as we speak.




Ported LS2 flows as good as any aftermarket unit, and is easier to tune and cheaper to boot.




The secret to that is to leave the tank in place and make a trap door above the pump. I'll tell you how it works out when I get to it.



Jon

Now that we've thoroughly jacked Tony's thread, What do you think the cross-over point is when you will actually need a better fuel pump, vs. just getting bigger injectors? I don't want to go with a magnavlot or a boosta-pump, as I think that will be a serious reliability issue.

If I go SVO erd tops, will I be good up to about 450ish rwhp w/o upgrading the fuel pump or rails?

-Chris

JonCR96Z
12-30-07, 01:40 PM
Tony who? Hey, there's only so far you can go with taking off your "performance" intake.

Anyway, back on topic. A voltage booster is a good thing. The ones that are available may not be though. I've contacted Racetronix inquiring about a CTSV specific hotwire kit, I'll let you know what I find out. You should be fine (for now) with the setup that you mentioned. At most you just change the pump whenever you do heads. Consensus seems to be 450-500 rwhp for the stock corvette systems, not sure the difference between us and them.

Jon

Chef
12-31-07, 01:31 AM
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum/75428-stock-air-intake-vs-performance-intake.html

lawfive
12-31-07, 04:32 PM
My tune is set for "no-pop" already. This wasn't the little popcorn noise on decel, either- it literally backfired on the 1-2 and 3-4 shift until the engine was warmed up.

WoooooooOOOOOO- POW! - WoooooooOOOOOOO - POW!

lol, I've had sex that sounds kind of like that.

CTSV_Rob
12-31-07, 11:35 PM
Might want to see a doctor.

The Tony Show
01-02-08, 12:13 PM
C'mon, people- All you defenders of the intake that are crafting crossover systems that would make MacGuyver proud, and no one's bought my Lingenfelter yet?

:D

Naf
01-02-08, 10:52 PM
C'mon, people- All you defenders of the intake that are crafting crossover systems that would make MacGuyver proud, and no one's bought my Lingenfelter yet?

:D

Sorry buddy, got a new virgin one from them with other little goodies....

If only you put it up sooner, would have grabbed it like the other stuff...

CTSV_Rob
01-02-08, 11:26 PM
There must be someone out there that would want it.

japx
01-03-08, 07:19 AM
Folks:
I to removed the POS Lingfelter 'performance filter' off of my 06. Bascially it doesn't fit properly, uses a heat soaking metal runner tube that simply too short... Notified LPE and they sent me the exact same POS. The units I installed on GTO's are far superior to this unit. I too went back to the stock box, and might fabricate a new runner tube, and give it another next spring.....

trukk
01-03-08, 12:59 PM
Folks:
I to removed the POS Lingfelter 'performance filter' off of my 06. Bascially it doesn't fit properly, uses a heat soaking metal runner tube that simply too short... Notified LPE and they sent me the exact same POS. The units I installed on GTO's are far superior to this unit. I too went back to the stock box, and might fabricate a new runner tube, and give it another next spring.....

It took me a while to get the LPE sorted out just right on my car, so it wouldn't pop off.

The metal insert is in there, so the airbox doesn;ty saw a hole through a softer material. That was a huge issue with the More Performance Intake, when it first came out.

I've found that the best way to install the LPE, is to connect the metal pipe to the airfilter first. push it all the way into the cone, so that you have between 5/8th and 3/4'ers of and inch depth, and then really crank the filter on tight. Next install the heat shield, but don't tighten down the bolts. There needs to be some play in the heat shield, so you can #1 get the filter in with the metal insert already attached, and #2, so that when you engine moves due to torque, the heat shield can move some, and won't pop off your filter. After that connect the metal tube to the MAF, and tighten that sucker up. This should keep your LPE nice and tight, and leak free. I'm in the habit now of checking the oil level in the car at least once a week (to be safe), at the same time, I do a quick double check on the LPE for leaks. After the first few months, and really getting it sorted out, I haven't had a leak since.

-Chris

Twitch
01-03-08, 01:45 PM
I dont know how you guys can argue against the power gained from a CAI. When I got mine, the box said up to 15 RWHP! I wish I could put 4 of them in my car. That's 60 RWHP for 1000 bucks!!! How many people wouldn't jump on that?
On top of that, its so easy to install. In my book, a quality CAI is by far the best mod you can get for your car.

randycsvt
01-03-08, 02:55 PM
I dont know how you guys can argue against the power gained from a CAI. When I got mine, the box said up to 15 RWHP! I wish I could put 4 of them in my car. That's 60 RWHP for 1000 bucks!!! How many people wouldn't jump on that?
On top of that, its so easy to install. In my book, a quality CAI is by far the best mod you can get for your car.


http://contour.org/ceg-vb/showthread.php?t=22346&highlight=intake

A system like the one in the link should get you about twice the power!

trukk
01-03-08, 03:43 PM
http://contour.org/ceg-vb/showthread.php?t=22346&highlight=intake

A system like the one in the link should get you about twice the power!
Hey now, duals have their place, just not on that POS :D

http://www.hennesseyperformance.com/hennesseyperformance/ItemDetail.php?Item_ID=43&cart=thfRuKOg&DoThis=Dodge+Viper+SRT10&ActionReq=Where

http://www.hennesseyperformance.com/hennesseyperformance/images/Pic2.php?Item_ID=43

-Chris

P.S. This intake cost $800, and adds 6rwhp!!

clubho
01-17-08, 03:15 AM
don't get me wrong i love my V but that is pretty.