: 02 STS uses tons of oil



drfong
12-24-07, 12:15 AM
Hello. I have a 2002 STS with about 98000 miles on it. I only bought it this year (and already wrecked it). It runs great, doesn't smoke at all cold or warm but seems to drink oil. Is this just normal with the N* motor. I was talking to a friend who saw my car and he said he had a eldorodo and it used lots of oil also. Is there something I should look into or just keep filling it up.
I am about to change the oil/filter and will keep a record to see exactly how long it takes to drop to where the warning comes on. I don't really have an exact mileage now. I bet it uses 4 qt/s minimun between oil changes of about 6k miles using synthetic oil.

Ekindler0584
12-24-07, 12:35 AM
According to GM, it is normal for our Northstars to use a quart of oil every 1000 to 1500 miles. This is due to an intentional lubricating of the valves.

(If I recall correctly... the reason might be a little off)

Ranger
12-24-07, 01:20 AM
Click on the TECHNICAL ARCHIVES at the top left of this page and read up on oil consumption.

drfong
12-24-07, 01:49 AM
Interesting article. I actually did a search on n* oil consumption and came up wit lots of threads saying lots of different things, but did not think to look up top at the tech archives.
I guess I just need to get out there and flog the old girl around harder. Maybe that will help.

dkozloski
12-24-07, 02:18 AM
A wife, a dog, and a walnut tree,
The more you beat'em'
The better they be!
Include the North* in that list.

nigelb
12-24-07, 05:51 AM
shame it doesn't work on kids!

Ranger
12-24-07, 11:38 AM
:histeric:

Cadillacboy
12-24-07, 02:39 PM
:histeric: too

Crown Vic Owner
12-24-07, 04:23 PM
Meh, i will type out what i know about these motors, not sure on the accuracy, but shoot



The reason why these motors burn so much oil is due to the agressive cylinder crosshatch. The reason why it may be more than stated in the manual (1qt every 800miles) is due to the fact that i BELIEVE that that is a limit allowed by the EPA due to emissions reasons as many other cars state the same exact amount, including the ford modular motor, a few other GM motors as well.


The reason why these cars burn oil like they do is because of the agressive cylinder wall crosshatch. When GM designed these motors, they passed endurance tests on them by running them at WOT for 200 hours, running extremely hot and cold coolant throughout the motor at times, monitoring how the motor behaved, and to top that off, the motors lasted. The motors are BUILT as race engines in a sense, noone seems to understand this. The northstar IS the closest thing you can get to a race engine off the shelf, unfortunately the northstar is dry sump, thus the reason why they have the monster oil pan (7.5 qts).
These motors LOVE to get carboned up as everyone sees here, and this CAN cause excess oil consumption. I recommend a WOT treatment, i listed how to do it below.

As many people have realized here, the northstar runs MUCH better when it gets beat on. Beating on these motors will go ahead and not do that much damage at all, hell, it will probably just make something thats broke show up. If you love your transmission and want to get on it, heres what you gotta do


Turn traction control on (Dont ask, just do it)
Put the gear selector in 1st
Accelerate as normal until 3000 RPMs, give it the guts until 5700 RPMs
Let off, let the engine slow the car down, watch the cloud of smoke out the tailpipes.


That is how i have to do it because i am WAY too lazy to get on the freeway.

AJxtcman
12-24-07, 05:48 PM
Problem #1
Stuck rings. TSB to clean first and then replace. I have replaced a ton.

Problem #2
The OD of the valve guide was damaged when installed.
I have repaired a hand full and seen another hand full repaired in the shop in the last 4 years. 90% of the time it has been #8 cylinder intake valve. That would be 10 to 15. The #8 plug is always oil soaked. 90% of the time this is found when repairing #1

Problem #3
Out of round Cylinder walls. Service Spec is .0039". Cylinder wall tapper is the same spec. This is also found when repairing #1. I have found .005" on several

Crosshatch looks nice. No carbon build up in it.

The rings are LOW tension barrel rings:D

Ranger
12-24-07, 06:21 PM
they passed endurance tests on them by running them at WOT for 200 hours
It was 400 hrs.


running extremely hot and cold coolant throughout the motor at times, monitoring how the motor behaved
Not saying that isn't true, but I have never heard that. That seems to be suicidal to me.

Crown Vic Owner
12-24-07, 06:42 PM
I was 400 hrs.


Not saying that isn't true, but I have never heard that. That seems to be suicidal to me.
i believe you guys said that

Ranger
12-24-07, 07:24 PM
Not I.

Submariner409
12-24-07, 09:48 PM
:devil:It is strongly suggested that anyone reading this thread perform an in-depth search ^^ on the subject and then form your own opinion.

Crown Vic Owner
12-24-07, 10:09 PM
Sub, im reading through that whole thread now

Ranger
12-24-07, 10:24 PM
I am not sure if this thread is getting confusing or not, but just to be clear, the only thing that I am disavowing knowledge or endorsement of is the cold coolant through a hot engine comment.

Submariner409
12-24-07, 10:37 PM
:bouncy: LOL!!!!!! With Santa Claus orbiting the central Atlantic coast, what are we doing in here ????

We're at one side of the children/grandchildren's for a couple of days......cookie baking, prime rib, mega-burp!!

Outta here for a day or so..........All the Best to everyone.

Jim

drfong
12-25-07, 01:02 AM
Ranger. Since this was my thread and I already got a good answer by getting dirrected to the tech section, I guess it is fine to go OT. I never really new much about the N* except some people love them and some hate them. I didn't realize they were dry sump motors, nor that they were built as a performance engine. As far as the tollerances and cross hatch explaination I can buy that to a point but I have worked with real race engines for a long time. Of course I have no way to know actual oil consuption in one over a long period of time, but don't COMPLETELY buy it.
Also if the thing is really built like a race engine the cold water in a hot engine should not hurt it. I am not sugesting anyone do this to their street car, but we run race engines up to 260degrees and imediately pump ice cold water thru them. Fire them back up and send them out for another qualifing run.

Crown Vic Owner
12-25-07, 06:44 AM
Ranger. Since this was my thread and I already got a good answer by getting dirrected to the tech section, I guess it is fine to go OT. I never really new much about the N* except some people love them and some hate them. I didn't realize they were dry sump motors, nor that they were built as a performance engine. As far as the tollerances and cross hatch explaination I can buy that to a point but I have worked with real race engines for a long time. Of course I have no way to know actual oil consuption in one over a long period of time, but don't COMPLETELY buy it.
Also if the thing is really built like a race engine the cold water in a hot engine should not hurt it. I am not sugesting anyone do this to their street car, but we run race engines up to 260degrees and imediately pump ice cold water thru them. Fire them back up and send them out for another qualifing run.

THESE ARE NOT dry sump

they are wet sump


I apologize, i got the 2 mixed up. Dont know where my head is.


Matter of fact, YOU sould be able to tell the difference by looking at them, scary if you were working on race engines.


The other day i remember seeing a dry sump pan for a northstar i BELIEVE, not 100 percent sure on that, but i thought that would be a interesting project. Probably for the sand rail cars people love to drop these motors in.

dkozloski
12-25-07, 04:20 PM
There are a couple of steps to the Northstar cylinder hone process. The first is a coarse crosshatch for oil retention. Next, the peaks of the ridges are converted to plateaus with a much finer stone to provide a smooth surface for the piston and rings to glide on. The factory uses diamond tooling to carefully control the process. It works, as cylinder wear in Northstar engines is practically unheard of. Factory engineers have reported 250,000 mile engines with no measurable cylinder bore wear.

Ranger
12-25-07, 05:35 PM
we run race engines up to 260degrees and imediately pump ice cold water thru them. Fire them back up and send them out for another qualifing run.
YIKES! :eek:

drfong
12-25-07, 10:54 PM
Ranger, it is really not that bad. But again you only expect to run them 700 miles max (500 mile race and a few hundred more during practice and qualifing) before tearing down to inspect and replace a bunch of stuff.

Crownvic, I said I didn't know anything about the N*. Typically a dry sump engine has an external oil pump and tank, but if the pan was large enough to hold the oil and keep it away from the crank it could be a dry sump. I have never even crawled up under the car to see what the pan and underside looks like.

Ranger
12-25-07, 11:01 PM
I am surprised that you can get 500 miles out of it. Always thought that was a sure way to crack a block.

Crown Vic Owner
12-25-07, 11:33 PM
Ranger, it is really not that bad. But again you only expect to run them 700 miles max (500 mile race and a few hundred more during practice and qualifing) before tearing down to inspect and replace a bunch of stuff.

Crownvic, I said I didn't know anything about the N*. Typically a dry sump engine has an external oil pump and tank, but if the pan was large enough to hold the oil and keep it away from the crank it could be a dry sump. I have never even crawled up under the car to see what the pan and underside looks like.
we have a 7.5qt pan for a reason

drfong
12-25-07, 11:41 PM
never heard of cracking a block that way. The worst we've done was when our cool down machine malfuctioned run it empty and sent the car out. Blew the head gaskets in very little time. Nothing like screwing up and haveing to change an engine last minute. Also pisses the engine builder of pretty well. We will actually cycle it true many times durring a test session. It will go from well over 225 durring a run, come in and hook it up to a machine that pumps in cold water and removes the hot. The conections are in the upper radiator hose. It is a one way valve. When connected to the machine the valve closes the upper hose and cold water, often ice water, goes in thru the radiator. It goes all the way thru the engine and when it gets back to the valve in the upper hose exits very hot. We cool them back down to less than 100 degrees in about 5 minutes. Where we messed up was the pump was not pumping but the hot water under pressure exited the engine. Bad deal. This is done with the engine shut off. When the car is cooled off you send it out again. We may do this 10-15 times in a day. These blocks are pretty heavy duty blocks. Again, I would not suggest tring it with a street car.

drfong
12-25-07, 11:53 PM
we have a 7.5qt pan for a reason
Not sure what you mean. You have said it is both wet sump and dry sump. The amount of oil in the pan would not matter. We run anywhere from 12 to 20 qts of oil but both are the same type of engine. (dry sumps) some are flood motors and take more oil.

dkozloski
12-26-07, 02:27 AM
A dry sump motor has an oil tank completely separate from the block. A dry sump system has at least two oil pumps; one to supply oil pressure and one to return oil to the supply tank. A wet sump motor may have a windage tray to separate the sump from the rotating parts but the oil returns to the sump by gravity.

drfong
12-26-07, 03:06 AM
A dry sump system can have 1 or multiple pumps. The single pump would be a multi stage pump. The scavange portion of the 1 pump is usually 3-4 times the capacity of the feed side. You want to get every bit of oil out and create a negative pressure in the pan. The tank (in our cars) is located in the back behind the drivers seat. There is a large air capacity over the level of the oil in the tank. So if you consider it 1 pump or 4, it really doesn't matter. I have said several times I know very little about the N* engine. It would not be impossible to have a dry sump tank within the oil pan. Someone else said it was a dry sump system, not I.

Crown Vic Owner
12-26-07, 06:36 AM
A dry sump system can have 1 or multiple pumps. The single pump would be a multi stage pump. The scavange portion of the 1 pump is usually 3-4 times the capacity of the feed side. You want to get every bit of oil out and create a negative pressure in the pan. The tank (in our cars) is located in the back behind the drivers seat. There is a large air capacity over the level of the oil in the tank. So if you consider it 1 pump or 4, it really doesn't matter. I have said several times I know very little about the N* engine. It would not be impossible to have a dry sump tank within the oil pan. Someone else said it was a dry sump system, not I.

I mean wet sump, wet sump wet sump wet sump, in a stock northstar.


What i was implying as well a few posts ago is that i SAW a dry sump kit for these motors, i BELIEVE.

Sorry about that if i wasnt clear, i am REALLY tired.

AJxtcman
12-26-07, 08:23 AM
This is an LS7 dry sump

http://www.gm.com/explore/technology/gmpowertrain/pbc/ls7_corvette/photo_gallery/images/06_7-0l_ls7_c-dry_sump.jpg

This is the oil pump

http://www.gm.com/explore/technology/gmpowertrain/pbc/ls7_corvette/photo_gallery/images/06_7-0l_ls7_c-pump2.jpg

http://www.gm.com/explore/technology/gmpowertrain/pbc/ls7_corvette/photo_gallery/ls7_photo_gallery.jsp

VIDEO CLIPS - CORVETTE LS7
5 Station Groupings


http://www.gm.com/explore/technology/gmpowertrain/pbc/ls7_corvette/animation-video/ls7_animation_video.jsp

Crown Vic Owner
12-26-07, 08:30 AM
http://www.drysump.com/pan21.htm

They DO make a N* dry sump pan


And also, the LS7 is just sex.

Ranger
12-26-07, 01:32 PM
What is the purpose and/or advantage of dry sump?

drfong
12-26-07, 02:05 PM
lots of little reasons that all add up to more power. When the crank doesn't run in oil there is less resistance, heat, foaming of the oil. All around better. Certainly not needed in a street car. Helps alot in race car.

Crown Vic Owner
12-26-07, 05:00 PM
lots of little reasons that all add up to more power. When the crank doesn't run in oil there is less resistance, heat, foaming of the oil. All around better. Certainly not needed in a street car. Helps alot in race car.

Yes, also the car does not get starved of oil under high g load.

drfong
12-26-07, 08:21 PM
Certianly true