: Heads and Cam...



thebigjimsho
12-23-07, 09:41 PM
OK, I've talked it for a couple years and never got around to it. But I'm serious about getting a head/cam setup this spring. And I may pull the trigger in the next couple months so I can split up the total cost piecemeal. Headers(maybe) and a Stealth tune will be part of the package. I'd like a revver with a raised redline of at least 7000rpm. And I don't mind a lopey idle, I just don't want it to be crazy...

Any ideas? I'll probably be going through TByrne. Maybe.

lunarx
12-23-07, 11:15 PM
I suggest you call Al at theLAPD (http://www.thelapd.com/).

He has his own custom grinds and can/will literally talk for hours on H/C combos.

I rode in Al's H/C C5 Z06 and it's a beast accross the whole RPM range, yet is civilized to drive.

They know V's too, as they built a customers 406 Maggie V (there now) and just tuned my V (and gained me 30 WHP/WTQ).

thebigjimsho
12-23-07, 11:34 PM
Thanks. I may have to call them later this week.

JonCR96Z
12-24-07, 12:39 AM
http://guerragroup.com/camshaft_help.htm

thebigjimsho
12-24-07, 12:48 AM
http://guerragroup.com/camshaft_help.htm
Good stuff.

trukk
12-24-07, 11:43 AM
http://guerragroup.com/camshaft_help.htm

Ding, Ding, Ding.

I got him to spec me one. I'm in the process of gathering all the bits for the CAM install right now. I will do heads later. I can swing 3kish for cam now, but don't want to spend 6k+ to do both heads and cam right now.

Jim, give me a call to discuss. Once i've finalized my parts list, I will post it.

443 992-2853

-Chris

thebigjimsho
12-24-07, 01:07 PM
Ding, Ding, Ding.

I got him to spec me one. I'm in the process of gathering all the bits for the CAM install right now. I will do heads later. I can swing 3kish for cam now, but don't want to spend 6k+ to do both heads and cam right now.

Jim, give me a call to discuss. Once i've finalized my parts list, I will post it.

443 992-2853

-Chris3k+ for a cam and 6k+ for cam and heads? habadaba?

The Tony Show
12-24-07, 01:11 PM
Vengeance Racing has some awesome setups, and the Corvette and F-Body guys swear by them. I talked to Ron at Vengeance a while back (before all my money went into the diapered crawling terror), and he recommended a few setups for the CTS-V- really nice guy.

http://vengeancerd.com/

Florian
12-24-07, 01:36 PM
Heads/cam should cost about 4-5K installed. Anything more and youre gettin hosed. I had Dart heads/FAST90 Intake w/90mm TB and a Comp Cam and I netted about 90RWHP.


F

Florian
12-24-07, 01:37 PM
Ding, Ding, Ding.

I got him to spec me one. I'm in the process of gathering all the bits for the CAM install right now. I will do heads later. I can swing 3kish for cam now, but don't want to spend 6k+ to do both heads and cam right now.

Jim, give me a call to discuss. Once i've finalized my parts list, I will post it.

443 992-2853

-Chris


3K for a cam???? Is it made of gold? Thats a rip.


F

thebigjimsho
12-24-07, 02:18 PM
Heads/cam should cost about 4-5K installed. Anything more and youre gettin hosed. I had Dart heads/FAST90 Intake w/90mm TB and a Comp Cam and I netted about 90RWHP.


FI was thinking under $500 for a cam, $1200 for heads, a few hundred $$$ for upgrading the springs and such and about $1G for installation. As for TB and intake, I'm not convinced I need to upgrade those...

I'm not looking to max out hp everywhere I can, but I'd like a healthy boost. Adding Rick's tune and maybe headers is about all I'm looking to do with my V.

duraz28
12-24-07, 02:51 PM
I'd talk to LG Motorsports in Dallas Texas thats who has done all the work to my V.She put 371rwhp 384rwtq all bolt ons. lgmotorsports.com

Naf
12-24-07, 02:55 PM
I would give Lingenfelter a call...Talk with Kevin

He will hook you up with the right heads and a WICKED cam that has the LS1/2 puttin out numbers that amaze me...Now dont forget to change out the lifters and rocker arms too...GO with the GM Performance lifters and Yella Terra rockers....Dont for get Titanium retainers and the right spring setup...

I have 3 of thier cams and i am loving it...They are even hooking me up with a LS2 short block for better overall power....

lunarx
12-24-07, 03:05 PM
I was thinking under $500 for a cam, $1200 for heads, a few hundred $$$ for upgrading the springs and such and about $1G for installation. As for TB and intake, I'm not convinced I need to upgrade those...

I'm not looking to max out hp everywhere I can, but I'd like a healthy boost. Adding Rick's tune and maybe headers is about all I'm looking to do with my V.
The sky is the limit on heads. :bighead:
The porting work alone alone on my LS6 heads cost well over $1200. :bonkers:

I think you have a good plan. :cool2:
Going super crazy on H/C is not needed for your type of driving.

RobCTSV sent me this article, which I found interesting.

http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/tech/0707gm_sick_flow_less_dough/index.html

The L92 heads require a TB/IM upgrade too.
I think headers/ExMan are same though.

If you don't think you need an IM upgrade, have alook at this:

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=807431

There will be both LS1/6 & L92 versions.

I'm considering this IM myself as opposed to converting my Fast 78 to a 90 and porting it.

Popular consensus is, headers are mandatory to get the gains from H/C.

Whoever you talk to, make sure all your goals are spelled out (budget/performance), as options abound.

JonCR96Z
12-24-07, 03:11 PM
Here's what I'm looking at right now:

cam - $400
heads (complete) - $2500
lifters - $500
rockers - $400
all required gaskets - $225
head studs - $250
pushrods - $130
timing chain - $40
tune - $300-400
installation - pack of band-aids (maybe some alcohol for those that live 'that' lifestyle)

thats right at $4700, knock off 2500 for the heads and 150 for the heads gaskets and a cam swap should run you around $2000 for parts. Installation could cost a little bit depending on where you go.

JonCR96Z
12-24-07, 03:19 PM
The sky is the limit on heads. :bighead:
The porting work alone alone on my LS6 heads cost well over $1200. :bonkers:

I think you have a good plan. :cool2:
Going super crazy on H/C is not needed for your type of driving.

RobCTSV sent me this article, which I found interesting.

http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/tech/0707gm_sick_flow_less_dough/index.html

The L92 heads require a TB/IM upgrade too.
I think headers/ExMan are same though.

If you don't think you need an IM upgrade, have alook at this:

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=807431

There will be both LS1/6 & L92 versions.

I'm considering this IM myself as opposed to converting my Fast 78 to a 90 and porting it.

Popular consensus is, headers are mandatory to get the gains from H/C.

Whoever you talk to, make sure all your goals are spelled out (budget/performance), as options abound.

LS6 heads are bad ass as is! If you're not looking to go all out, I wouldn't mess with the heads. I would get a thinner head gasket, to raise compression and lower your quench height. That and a cam designed for your application is hard to beat.

With a set of ported stock castings you may be losing 10-20rwhp depending on how big the cam is. And with a premium head you'll lose about the same up top, but you'll also be giving up some low end as well. Not a whole hell of a lot of gain for the money. Like I said its all about how much you want.

Also, headers are a must.

Jon

HushH
12-24-07, 03:20 PM
Vengeance Racing has some awesome setups, and the Corvette and F-Body guys swear by them. I talked to Ron at Vengeance a while back (before all my money went into the diapered crawling terror), and he recommended a few setups for the CTS-V- really nice guy.

http://vengeancerd.com/

What Tony said. Here's my cam only graph.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/HushH/CamDyno20018.jpg

JonCR96Z
12-24-07, 03:24 PM
I'd talk to LG Motorsports in Dallas Texas thats who has done all the work to my V.She put 371rwhp 384rwtq all bolt ons. lgmotorsports.com

I think your rwtq number is a little off, otherwise not impressive. LG never was anything and never will be.

JonCR96Z
12-24-07, 03:25 PM
What Tony said. Here's my cam only graph.



Torque looks awesome. Nobody can say anything bad about this one. What's your cam specs and supporting mods.

Jon

thebigjimsho
12-24-07, 03:37 PM
Great. This is becoming the most informative thread in the V forums...

thebigjimsho
12-24-07, 03:42 PM
What Tony said. Here's my cam only graph.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/HushH/CamDyno20018.jpgI'd be perfectly satisfied going cam only. But I do want to raise my rev limiter and beef up the valvetrain to do so. I am very much a n00b when it comes to all this and I just want to gain power and rev high.

Keep it coming, guys...

lunarx
12-24-07, 03:47 PM
I'd be perfectly satisfied going cam only. But I do want to raise my rev limiter and beef up the valvetrain to do so. I am very much a n00b when it comes to all this and I just want to gain power and rev high.

Keep it coming, guys...

Make sure you ad an Oil Cooler to your mod list.
High RPM generates lots of heat.

Florian
12-24-07, 03:51 PM
TBJS,

The L92/L76 stuff wont work w/your LS6. Its LS2 based. They intake valley doesnt match up. If youre digging into the engine it absolutely makes sense to do all the adders while in there. Do Cam/heads and intake. That way youre not mixing/matching. Have a plan. Remember, the V has SHITTY intake plumbing. 2 right angles???? Please. You need to maximize your airflow and to do that you need more volume. More volume = more HP. How to achieve? Bigger plumbing to include TB, intake, heads. Make sure you get ported/polished heads. You can do this for 5K, I did. Hell, if you dont want to drop that kind of coin, just call Rick and get his tune, that really helps.
OR, just wait 8 months for the new V.

F

JonCR96Z
12-24-07, 04:06 PM
OR, just wait 8 months for the new V.

F

Yes, that's always an option if you want some solid hp numbers.

lunarx
12-24-07, 04:12 PM
TBJS,

The L92/L76 stuff wont work w/your LS6. Its LS2 based. They intake valley doesnt match up. ....

F

L92 Heads work if you swap IM right?

Street Warrior L92 IM is pending release.
Claims are it gains 30HP/TQ midrange over LS6 IM
http://www.musclecarsoforlando.100megs25.com/MSCC/S6300391.JPG

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8268280&postcount=217

http://www.v8tvshow.com/forum/index.php?topic=143.msg437#msg437

JonCR96Z
12-24-07, 04:28 PM
L92 Heads work if you swap IM right?

Street Warrior L92 IM is pending release.
Claims are it gains 30HP/TQ midrange over LS6 IM

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8268280&postcount=217

http://www.v8tvshow.com/forum/index.php?topic=143.msg437#msg437




L92 heads won't work on LS1/LS6 (3.90 bore) because they are desgined for 4.0+ bore engines. They have huge valves which may hit the cylinder walls on small bore engines.

The pic you showed is an LS1/6 version not the L92 version.

lunarx
12-24-07, 04:32 PM
L92 heads won't work on LS1/LS6 (3.90 bore) because they are desgined for 4.0+ bore engines. They have huge valves which may hit the cylinder walls on small bore engines.

Good Point. :eek:
So much for cheap heads for an LS6. :hmm:

trukk
12-26-07, 12:52 PM
3k+ for a cam and 6k+ for cam and heads? habadaba?


3K for a cam???? Is it made of gold? Thats a rip.


F


I was thinking under $500 for a cam, $1200 for heads, a few hundred $$$ for upgrading the springs and such and about $1G for installation. As for TB and intake, I'm not convinced I need to upgrade those...

I'm not looking to max out hp everywhere I can, but I'd like a healthy boost. Adding Rick's tune and maybe headers is about all I'm looking to do with my V.

O.K., O.K. Lemme explain.

#1 My car is a DD, so when I mod it, I (try to) do it right, and spare no expense. Reliability is one of my main concerns. I have yet to have my car strand me somewhere (knock on wood.) Finally I'm only interested in doing mods once. Not part way, then have to come back and re-do something because I didn't think it out, or skimped on parts.

With that in mind, here is my parts list & price for cam & install:


-Cust ground Cam + spec + cam doctor card: $450 (I wanted to get the cam card w/ the custom grind so my tuner knows exactly what is in there, same with my installer. I got a custom grind spec's out by Patrick G.)

-Spring/Valve Kit: $380

PRC platimum's or Patriot Extreme's double springs
Chromoly hardened push rods
Seats/seals
Ti retainers(Note: I went doubles for longevity and durability. The cam I'm getting is right around 600 lift, which isn't crazy, but isn't 'small' either. Finally the lobes I'm using are fairly aggressive (XFI/XE-R), so I wanted to make sure all was well with the srpings. I do not want to have to check and/or replace my springs every 6 moths to a year (25k miles)).

- Harmonic balancer/ UD pulley & associated hardware (new belt, ARP crank bolt, etc.): $300 (When you are doing a cam, it only makes sense to do the harmonic balancer/pulley, because it's off anyway. Also it's imprtant to get a quality one, as this helps stabilize the crank shaft, and prevent undue wear on the main's/crank.

- New timing kit. $185 (I decided on the cloyes hex adjust double, for strength, and ease of tuning/installation.)

- Flow Matched Fuel injectors. $400 (Set of 8. I went flow matched so I don't run into any lean/rich issues cylinder to cylinder. Also at 380 rwhp, I was at 92% Injector Duty Cycle. By adding a 'healthy' sized cam, I'm defiantely going to be above 100% at high RPM/WOT. While not a huge deal on the street, it would definately present a problem at the road course, with extended WOT for long sessions. I am still undecided on the lucas 42#-ers or the Ford SVO red top 30#'s)

- ARP Cam Retainer bolts: $7.50 (ARP all the way)

- Yella Terra Ultralite Rockers. $425 (I am doing rockers now, because my stock ones have 62k miles, and I don't want to run those forever, and figured now was a good time. Last thing I want is needl bearings getting dumped into my engine.)

- Gasket pack: $80. All the misc gaskets needed.

- Ported oil pump. $150. While not techically needed, since we already have an LS6 pump. Now is the time to do one, while everything is apart.

- Shipping: $100

- Oil, dexcool, other fluids, etc.: $50

- MISC: ???? (I'm sure there will be a few odds and ends I missed)

- Installation: ????

- Dyno Tune: $500

Total: $3027.50 + Installation & Misc.

Now is this overkill? Some of it is yes, some not. Keep in mind your situation, and goals. Again for me this is a DD, which I put a fair ammount of miles on, and a car I take to the raod course 6ish times per year. Worth the money for me, because I'm not going to have to redo anything, and not feel like I skimped anywhere, making me worry about reliability.

So there ya go.

-Chris

lunarx
12-26-07, 01:23 PM
O.K., O.K. Lemme explain.

#1 My car is a DD, so when I mod it, I (try to) do it right, and spare no expense. Reliability is one of my main concerns. I have yet to have my car strand me somewhere (knock on wood.) Finally I'm only interested in doing mods once. Not part way, then have to come back and re-do something because I didn't think it out, or skimped on parts.

With that in mind, here is my parts list & price for cam & install:


-Cust ground Cam + spec + cam doctor card: $450 (I wanted to get the cam card w/ the custom grind so my tuner knows exactly what is in there, same with my installer. I got a custom grind spec's out by Patrick G.)

-Spring/Valve Kit: $380

PRC platimum's or Patriot Extreme's double springs
Chromoly hardened push rods
Seats/seals
Ti retainers(Note: I went doubles for longevity and durability. The cam I'm getting is right around 600 lift, which isn't crazy, but isn't 'small' either. Finally the lobes I'm using are fairly aggressive (XFI/XE-R), so I wanted to make sure all was well with the srpings. I do not want to have to check and/or replace my springs every 6 moths to a year (25k miles)).

- Harmonic balancer/ UD pulley & associated hardware (new belt, ARP crank bolt, etc.): $300 (When you are doing a cam, it only makes sense to do the harmonic balancer/pulley, because it's off anyway. Also it's imprtant to get a quality one, as this helps stabilize the crank shaft, and prevent undue wear on the main's/crank.

- New timing kit. $185 (I decided on the cloyes hex adjust double, for strength, and ease of tuning/installation.)

- Flow Matched Fuel injectors. $400 (Set of 8. I went flow matched so I don't run into any lean/rich issues cylinder to cylinder. Also at 380 rwhp, I was at 92% Injector Duty Cycle. By adding a 'healthy' sized cam, I'm defiantely going to be above 100% at high RPM/WOT. While not a huge deal on the street, it would definately present a problem at the road course, with extended WOT for long sessions. I am still undecided on the lucas 42#-ers or the Ford SVO red top 30#'s)

- ARP Cam Retainer bolts: $7.50 (ARP all the way)

- Yella Terra Ultralite Rockers. $425 (I am doing rockers now, because my stock ones have 62k miles, and I don't want to run those forever, and figured now was a good time. Last thing I want is needl bearings getting dumped into my engine.)

- Gasket pack: $80. All the misc gaskets needed.

- Ported oil pump. $150. While not techically needed, since we already have an LS6 pump. Now is the time to do one, while everything is apart.

- Shipping: $100

- Oil, dexcool, other fluids, etc.: $50

- MISC: ???? (I'm sure there will be a few odds and ends I missed)

- Installation: ????

- Dyno Tune: $500

Total: $3027.50 + Installation & Misc.

Now is this overkill? Some of it is yes, some not. Keep in mind your situation, and goals. Again for me this is a DD, which I put a fair ammount of miles on, and a car I take to the raod course 6ish times per year. Worth the money for me, because I'm not going to have to redo anything, and not feel like I skimped anywhere, making me worry about reliability.

So there ya go.

-Chris


Great Info!! :yup:

I was curious, are you planning to have Lindsay install this stuff?

trukk
12-26-07, 01:38 PM
Great Info!! :yup:

I was curious, are you planning to have Lindsay install this stuff?

Thanks Ernie. After the install, let's trade cars ;)

Once I'm done, I'll definately post up info on it. I'm sure I have and will waste some cash on stuff I don;t absolutely need. However, I'd rather wast a buit up front, and then not have to pay on the back end, rather than the other way around. Backend, is always WAY more expensive.

Nope. I'm going to have a local installer do it (Damian, for those of you that may know him.)

-Chris

lunarx
12-26-07, 02:05 PM
Thanks Ernie. After the install, let's trade cars ;)

Once I'm done, I'll definately post up info on it. I'm sure I have and will waste some cash on stuff I don;t absolutely need. However, I'd rather wast a buit up front, and then not have to pay on the back end, rather than the other way around. Backend, is always WAY more expensive.

Nope. I'm going to have a local installer do it (Damian, for those of you that may know him.)

-Chris

Throw in an iPod adapter and a full tank of gas and it's a deal. :cookoo:

I like your build concept.
On the subject of reliability, there is no such thing as overkill. :yup:

type911
12-26-07, 03:28 PM
Big Jim. We are somewhat local. I plan on the same mods. From what I hear Mike Dez at Dez Racing is the guy to see for a tune and install. Who are you planning on doing the work?

CTSV_Rob
12-26-07, 06:47 PM
Throw in an iPod adapter and a full tank of gas and it's a deal. :cookoo:

I like your build concept.
On the subject of reliability, there is no such thing as overkill. :yup:
They may butcher the truck motor but the L92 heads will fit on my V and since you have the C5R block I believe they will fit on yours as well. Now you have a nice set of heads on yours so I would do somemore research before replacing the heads on yours.

Glad to see you got the Mallet running, Bad A$$ car!

Look forward to see what your going to try next.

Great thread and I think these cars have a very mild cam and that is the best way to get some serious HP. The advantage to the head swap I think would be the Torque gains.

PLan for me is a H/C swap but I will probably go a bit conservative with the Cam and go with the L92 heads to get her to breathe a bit better.

Also really interested in the Intake Erine found, I can't want to hear about some real world numers with that awesome looking manifold. Doesn't look like any porting will be required and with a slight port match that should be a nice addition to the truck motor powered V!

I want a 427 Dammit (I'm Jealous Ernie)! There is NO replacement for Displacement!

lunarx
12-27-07, 04:23 AM
Rob is right, the performance potential of our cars is amazing. :yup:

Now is the best time to own a V.
All the mods we have been dreaming of are finally becoming available.
Sick V's for everyone (uh ok, just supporting members). :D

Natedog
12-27-07, 12:59 PM
...for those of you that may know him.)


Yea i coordinated through Damian to have my dumps installed... cash did the work.. excellent quality... we should get a DC/MD/NoVa meet together sometime in the new year.. that way i can see first hand everything i need to do before the Track Day in May :lildevil:

trukk
12-27-07, 01:03 PM
Yea i coordinated through Damian to have my dumps installed... cash did the work.. excellent quality... we should get a DC/MD/NoVa meet together sometime in the new year.. that way i can see first hand everything i need to do before the Track Day in May :lildevil:

Feel free to organize it, and I'll come. I organized the last one, so I did my share already.

-Chris

thebigjimsho
12-27-07, 01:44 PM
Big Jim. We are somewhat local. I plan on the same mods. From what I hear Mike Dez at Dez Racing is the guy to see for a tune and install. Who are you planning on doing the work?I'm not sure who's going to do the work. But I want a Stealth tune...

type911
12-27-07, 02:24 PM
I'm not sure who's going to do the work. But I want a Stealth tune...


It will be interesting to see the two results.

Scatillac
12-28-07, 08:38 AM
Roll your own! If you do your own work you can afford heads, cam and headres.:bouncy:

CTSV_Rob
12-28-07, 12:57 PM
The headres are one of my favorite mods :D

thebigjimsho
12-28-07, 02:15 PM
Roll your own! If you do your own work you can afford heads, cam and headres.:bouncy:While I've studied up on the how-to, I haven't opened up any engine in a long time and don't feel comfortable doing so. Besides, instead of working a long weekend or two, I could just work while I have someone else do it and break even...

jerrycecco
05-22-08, 01:44 AM
I'd talk to LG Motorsports in Dallas Texas thats who has done all the work to my V.She put 371rwhp 384rwtq all bolt ons. lgmotorsports.com

I was at LG motorsoprts today (5-21-08) they installed the B&M in my 04 V
Shifter is GREAT!!!!
Salesperson there quote me $5k for cam & headers & tune, but it will add 100hp to the rear wheels. SOUNDS great... Anyone have this package in the Dallas area? if so email me jerrycecco@tx.rr.com

I heard BJ's 15th off I75 in Plano has car nite every Monday.
I 'm planning to be there on Monday May 26th....

heavymetals
05-22-08, 01:50 AM
Don't think your gonna do 100.

Maggie it and get more :highfive:

trukk
05-22-08, 11:37 AM
Don't think your gonna do 100.

Maggie it and get more :highfive:

I'm at about 95 with cam only, full indcutiona nd exhaust (albeit, topshelf stuffs.)

The gory details on the cam, with pricing and parts, and basically way to much info:

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2004/139034-cam-results-57-rwhp-45-rwtq.html

Heavy is right about the maggie, it is a very legitimate option. You definately get bacg for the buck, and ease of isntallation. I didn't go that route because I didn't want the extra weight and handling changes due to 150 extra lbs up front. I also wanted to avoid heatsoak isues when on the road course. Goning N/A of course has it's issues as well (lose of some street manners, much louder, etc.)

-Chris

smoothq
05-22-08, 11:47 PM
Ya I have to agree I am going to go N/A also but I love the noise of an LS done up rite. I'm going to go AFR, Kooks, 90mm TB, 92 Fast, and cam. I found it for bout 5k unistalled. Maybe anthor grand for install and tune at the rite place. Good luck