: Bonneville GPX/Northstar



156MPH
05-07-04, 03:15 PM
Has anyone driven one of these....they are a lot lighter than a cadillac.

BeelzeBob
05-07-04, 03:52 PM
Yes, I had one for about 3 months and put almost 10K on it....it is really an excellent car.


The GXP has the LD8 275 HP engine in it BUT with the 3.71 final drive. That combo is very quick off the line and still has excellent top end as the GXP gets the benefit of a very low backpressure exhaust system....still pretty quiet but much louder than Cadillac would put up with...LOL

Handling-wise the car is outstanding....period...no qualifications for it being a FWD car. 18 inch wheels and tires, big brakes, Sachs monotube struts, stiffer, straight rate springs, bigger stab bar, massive cross tower brace,....etc... outstanding. It will make a LOT of cars look silly on a freeway ramp or cloverleaf and it will take repeated laps on a road course with no problems.

The GXP comes with all the Stabilitrac, traction control, PAS, etc...that the Cadillac STS has....

What can I say...it was one of the nicest all 'round cars that I have driven in many years. AND, it was FWD so it made it thru the Michigan winter fine and even towed my snowmobile trailer 450 miles up into Canada in a snowstorm. Even the guys in the 4X4's couldn't keep up with it....LOL.

ljklaiber
05-07-04, 04:13 PM
Waiting for one to show up at a local or SSouth Georgia area dealer. I think , if it does like you say, I will buy one. Must not be many shipped down here yet.

156MPH
05-07-04, 04:38 PM
looks nice..........

growe3
05-07-04, 09:20 PM
Yes, I had one for about 3 months and put almost 10K on it....it is really an excellent car.
So...what happened, do you still have the Pontiac?

-George

BeelzeBob
05-08-04, 02:13 AM
So...what happened, do you still have the Pontiac?

-George

That particular car is still around in our test fleet. I just "borrowed it" for 3 months....LOL.

airbalancer
05-08-04, 07:53 AM
On another forum, someone said that SLS was not worth $10,000 (?) more then the GPX.
What do you think?

Dubya
05-09-04, 02:00 PM
i personally like the gxp more, the engine trans combo is the best setup too, bbob, is it true that they kept the 6500rpm shifts like in the sts? that would be sweet..........i want.........whats it weigh anyways?

chrome rim option would have been nice

BeelzeBob
05-10-04, 12:37 PM
The GXP has the upshifts at 6500... The LD8 pulls off the higher upshifts fine with the low backpressure exhaust system.

growe3
05-10-04, 07:22 PM
The GXP has the upshifts at 6500... The LD8 pulls off the higher upshifts fine with the low backpressure exhaust system.

Is there anything from the low pressure exhaust system that would be worth adapting to a 93 STS? Catalytic converter, mufflers?

-George

Dubya
05-10-04, 08:44 PM
that makes no sense, you'd pay alot for oem 2004 gxp exhaust, go aftermarket!!!!

also bbob, what makes no sense to me is this. its a ld8 with low backpressure and a redline raised 500rpm. how does it peak at only 275hp? sounds like a 285-290ish combo to me. maybe they're just underrating it so it doesn't shine on cadillacs parade just yet?

ShadowLvr400
05-10-04, 10:06 PM
The exhaust may have just been keeping the power up longer, thats why they give the higher rpm. It may be hitting 275 and just sitting up there.

BeelzeBob
05-10-04, 11:53 PM
The lower backpressure prevents the engine from falling off as badly past the power peak so it can pull off the higher RPM upshifts and be in the fat part of the power band in the next gear...


Raising the shift points doesn't raise the redline, necessarily.... Lots of things affect shift points for performance. It is desireable to have the engine/vehicle speed high enough in any given gear so that the engine does not fall out of the torque curve after the shift to the next gear. But, on the other hand, if the engine is just flattening out past the peak power point it is wasting time to hold the engine in that gear for any longer. The engine pulls strong enough past the peak power point in the GXP to allow the higher upshifts speeds so that the engine pulls stronger in the next gear.

The LD8 engine in the GXP received the same power rating as in the Cadillacs since it is still an LD8 engine and did not change engine families. It is probably rated a little more conservatively in the Pontiac application due to the exhaust system.

Aurora40
05-17-04, 03:11 PM
Whenever I hear about the GXP, all I can think of is how awesome the Aurora could have been... Imagine the 275/300hp motor in an Aurora, or imagine the GXP if it were actually attractive with a non-boy-racer interior. A GXP-ized Aurora (maybe with a closer to stock suspension) would be incredible! Stupid GM... :hmm:

BeelzeBob
05-17-04, 11:02 PM
Whenever I hear about the GXP, all I can think of is how awesome the Aurora could have been... Imagine the 275/300hp motor in an Aurora, or imagine the GXP if it were actually attractive with a non-boy-racer interior. A GXP-ized Aurora (maybe with a closer to stock suspension) would be incredible! Stupid GM... :hmm:

Little bit of 20/20 hindsight here....???

Boyracer interior...????....We must be talking about two different cars... I think the interior of the GXP is very nice and anything but "boy racer". What exactly don't you like about it?? It is very understated, as is the whole car with the smooth clading and all the grills and gills eliminated on the tail light lenses and such. The seats are excellent with the fax suede seating areas that are actually very comfortable and gripping without being sticky or anything. The gauge faces were changed to a very legible and simple style and the speedo was increased to 160...what's boy racer about that.??

I think you are jealous and just secretly want a GXP and are trying to convince yourself otherwise.

Aurora's were Auroras...diferent time and different place...that was years ago. The GXP is today....and Oldsmobile doesn't even exist. You could take any car and "wish" for todays equipment on it....

Dubya
05-18-04, 12:21 AM
previous bonnevilles had boy racer interiors, and so did previous grand prix, and the grand ams, sunfires still do, but i like the interior of the 2003 SSEI i sat in last year at the auto show, and the gxp is slightly upgraded from that, i liked it more that the 2003 aurora there (inside)

gxp is a nice car, to bad i cant afford one :P

at least pontiac is turning its image around now that olds is gone, for a while there cars where pretty cheezy

Jesda
05-18-04, 12:48 AM
The GXP is a nice step up from previous Pontiacs. Pontiac interiors always felt like knockoff tupperware.

The $10k premium for an SLS gets you all the style, sophistication, sound deadening, panache, and interior quality of a Cadillac. I suppose if you're only into performance, the GXP gets the job done. But I need more.

-Jesda

Aurora40
05-18-04, 10:17 AM
How is this 20/20 hindsight? I think from the beginning there were deliberate decisions to keep the 4.6 in a Cadillac, it wasn't that the thought never occurred to anyone. I don't work for GM, but I certainly would have paid the extra cost to get a 4.6 in my Aurora back when I ordered it new. Is it hindsight because I didn't reply to this thread back then?

The GXP is understated compared to a SSEi, not compared to general taste. I think it looks better, but still not great. One thing I can't stand about all Pontiac interiors is the red backlighting. The vents, the layout, and even the colors are racery. It comes in like dark grey and less grey, and that's it... But really, take a look at the Aurora interior and the GXP interior. Which seems more elegant? The Aurora is still driver-centric, but not in any way racery. And it would be a lot easier to add some sportier touches to a performance version of the Aurora and still have a nice interior, than to try to add classy touches to the over-the-top SSEi interior to try and achieve a nice interior...

As for today vs. yesterday, are you serious? What platform does the Bonnie ride on? What's technologically different about the 4.6 in the GXP and the 4.0 in the Aurora? The Aurora certainly wasn't years ago, at the most it was one year ago. I'm hoping that was a bit tongue-in-cheek, though it doesn't really read that way... :nyanya:

As far as jealousy, the GXP is currently the only GM car I would consider to replace the Aurora (though I'd consider an Impala LS/SS to augment it if the wife's car crapped out as it is a nice, solid, well-equipped car for low cost). With the demise of Olds, there isn't anything in GM's inventory that appeals to me as a replacement. The GXP would be close, but I can't get past the looks and interior of it. Of course I find the Corvette and the CTS-V (not the CTS, though, a lack of V8 and a higher cost than my Aurora for less features are a real turn-off) to be quite appealing, but they don't have the practicality my car has. So I think I have some interest in the GXP because currently it's the only damn car GM makes that even slightly appeals to me... The better it gets (the more Aurora-like), the better it is for me...


Little bit of 20/20 hindsight here....???

Boyracer interior...????....We must be talking about two different cars... I think the interior of the GXP is very nice and anything but "boy racer". What exactly don't you like about it?? It is very understated, as is the whole car with the smooth clading and all the grills and gills eliminated on the tail light lenses and such. The seats are excellent with the fax suede seating areas that are actually very comfortable and gripping without being sticky or anything. The gauge faces were changed to a very legible and simple style and the speedo was increased to 160...what's boy racer about that.??

I think you are jealous and just secretly want a GXP and are trying to convince yourself otherwise.

Aurora's were Auroras...diferent time and different place...that was years ago. The GXP is today....and Oldsmobile doesn't even exist. You could take any car and "wish" for todays equipment on it....

BeelzeBob
05-18-04, 02:45 PM
It was meant tongue in cheek....LOL.


Hindsight because you are talking about things that were decided 10 years or more ago. As stated the Aurora is out of production. Oldsmobile is history. What makes sense today did not make sense back then.

When the Northstar engine was in the design stages it was a Cadillac "exclusive" engine. The only way to put the similar technology engine in the Aurora was to make it a distinctly different displacement and HP. There are certain "rules" regarding badging engines for different divisions and to make the Northstar name an exclusive for Cadillac the engine could not be used in Oldsmobiles...period. Just the rules....like it or not. Since Cadillac was investing heavily in the new engine and was the primary user in terms of introduction date (93 vs. 95 for the Aurora) and volumes (10-12 times more Northstars were produced compared to Auroras) they got the premium power output and the Northstar distinction. This distinction as an exclusive engine for Cadillac was important for Cadillacs resurgence thru the 90's and todate.

Today, things are a little different as the Aurora is no longer around, Cadillac is using Vortec engines in trucks, Cadillac got the new premium V6 in the CTS, Cadillac got the Z06 engine in the CTS-V.....so....the powers that be decided it was "OK" for Pontiac to use the Northstar...but only in the 275 HP tune so that the 300 HP L37 could still be an exclusive for Cadillac. The Northstar name is less important to Cadillac these days as their position in the market place is not based purely on the Northstar exclusivity but on their product in general.

Discussing the engineering and marketing decisions of the Aurora is really academic as it is nothing but hindsight to look back with a woulda'/coulda'/shoulda' type of attitude knowing hwhat happened in the market place and such. None of that was known back then....

Aurora40
05-18-04, 06:02 PM
Fair enough... I can still dream of a 300hp Aurora, though... :)

I do think GM's positioning of powerplants is dumb. Especially when there is little or no monetary savings in intentionally detuning one. If the only difference to justify the extra $20,000 of an STS over an Aurora is .6L and 50hp, GM should go back and examine their product. They shouldn't detune an engine in a "lesser" application just to differentiate their models.

Does the 4.0L V8 really cost any less to produce than the 4.6L? Not to mention the economies of scale from another application for the same engine...

BeelzeBob
05-19-04, 11:39 AM
They shouldn't detune an engine in a "lesser" application just to differentiate their models.

Does the 4.0L V8 really cost any less to produce than the 4.6L? Not to mention the economies of scale from another application for the same engine...


What exactly do you suggest, then, for differentiating different models and applications...???? Since the Z06 Corvette engine is "available" should it go in all small block applications...???...this would be the extreme of your argument.

Don't think of it as "detuning" one engine...think of it as taking an engine (the "lesser" one) and making an uplevel version of it for the premium car.....LOL....consider the base engine as the 4.0 and the uplevel tune of the engine the 4.6..... This approach is very common and used thru-out the automotive industry....every manufacturer does this.

It might be argued that the lesser volume engine costs the most when you amortize the development, tooling and certification costs over a smaller volume....so if the "premium" engine were to be the higher volume engine then it might cost less to produce in some sense....

In reality it does cost more for different models and versions of the engine due to the certification and developement costs for each varient. Just the parts you see are not the final answer.

Aurora40
05-20-04, 05:54 PM
Well, the Z06 engine's low-end torque and high-rpm power probably wouldn't be practical in a truck. And I'll bet it does cost a non-trivial amount more to produce due to higher-cost manufacturing like sodium-filled valves, and probaby many other things I'm not aware of. But the Northstar/Aurora probably cost about the same to produce, and both models might get a cheaper engine if they used the same one.

And like I said, is the engine all that differentiates an Aurora from an STS? If so, what the hell is Cadillac thinking trying to sell 50 more hp for $20,000???

I think it's a bad philosophy. Was there a cost savings in the 305hp version of the LS-1 in the Camaro vs. the base Corvette version? I can understand it might not make 350hp due to packaging, etc, but why intentionally remove power? Would someone who wants to buy a Corvette really buy a Camaro instead because they have the same engine (which they do anyway, both LS-1's)? I doubt it. There is quite a bit more that's different than just the power output... The product is differentiated by a lot more than just horsepower. But would they have sold a lot more Camaros if it had 340-350hp? Possibly.

Not every auto maker does this. Nissan/Infiniti does, but their products suck. Some companies do similar things, like VW/Audi, but usually there is a particular cost-saving shortcut taken, like a 4-valve head vs. a 5-valve one, or a wimpier turbo. But the 4.2 in the S4 isn't artificially limited so as to make less power than in an A8 or anything (to pick one example). I think GM tends to take it to more of an extreme than other companies.

Dubya
05-21-04, 03:04 PM
im sure there's a little more than 50hp for 20,000. but still, thats the big chunk of it, either way, it worked. they sold tons of seville's, and had a bigger profit. your paying to drive a "cadillac", i know its dumb, but it works. i still think there nicer cars, but not 20k nicer.

if the aurora had 300hp, less people would have bought the sevilles. no, not all would have, but less would have, and that means less money for GM, so why would they want to do that?

on the same note, the 4.0 was a dumb idea, its torqueless. spare me the dyno numbers, ive got one, its torqueless, even with my 3.71 gear ratio. 4.2 would have been a much better choice, but here i go with the shoulda/coulda/woulda

Alaskan Pro Mod
05-22-04, 04:13 PM
Hey all..

Just signed the paperwork on my new GXP. Picking it up next week... So what are the easy hop up tricks to these motors?? Chips, exhaust ??? I'll buy them before hand and have them installed at the dealership.
Thanks!

Chuck C
05-22-04, 04:38 PM
Hey all..

Just signed the paperwork on my new GXP. Picking it up next week... So what are the easy hop up tricks to these motors?? Chips, exhaust ??? I'll buy them before hand and have them installed at the dealership.
Thanks!

you'll find that northstars are very difficult to mod...the best mods are all induction/exhaust related (cold air intake, exhaust systems). I don't even think they make headers for the northstar unless you went to that one guy who turns northstars into hotrod engines (for use in hotrods, not caddys! :()

Aurora40
05-22-04, 05:02 PM
either way, it worked. they sold tons of seville's
Um, no they didn't... They tended to move about 20,000 or so on good years. It was the slowest moving Caddy by far. So instead of some of those people buying an Aurora, they were probably just buying something from another company... I think GM should make the best product they can at the price point they want the vehicle in. The 4.6, would have been great, the 275hp with the 3.48 would have been a good combo from an economy/performance standpoint, and wouldn't have raised the price or lowered the per unit profit much, IMO. I don't know why GM focuses so much on inter-GM competition. They need to worry more about competition from non-GM companies.

You are talking like GM's stupid performance-limiting worked, but it didn't. Both the Aurora and the Seville were big failures in the marketplace and are now gone.

Dubya
05-23-04, 12:29 AM
i completly agree, it was dumb and they most likely lost money. with the 275hp 3.48 it would have been the fastest of all 3 (for the same reason the gxp is faster than a sts), how could gm justify a cheaper car thats faster than the "flagship" luxury sport sedan? it already had a better interior (cheaper parts, but much better laid out) and in some peoples opinions (mine being one of them) a better exterior. they could have sold a ton more if they would have built a "sts" version too, becuase the ones we have is kinda like the "sls"

i see seville's everywhere, i dont know the numbers, maybe someone could chime in with them, but they sold alot of them...maybe its just a minnesota thing though

shoulda coulda woulda, thats what aftermarket is for.

Smokey
05-23-04, 04:52 PM
I test drove several used Auroras and while I thought they offered a lot for the money, they seriuously lacked bottom end power. I finally decided it was normal and passed on purchasing one. Good deals to be had on them though.