: Question for those with KARS3



Seattle CTS-V
12-17-07, 12:40 PM
I had my KARS III reinstalled about a month ago and I'm not so sure they reinstalled the steel spacers. The wheel hop seems just as bad as it did w/o the KARS. The last time I had the KARS on the car it performed very differently. Do the spacers completely replace the rubber spacers on the cradle or do they wrap around them? Either way, when I look at the four cradle mount points I can't visibly see the steel spacers at all. Tanks!

rand49er
12-17-07, 02:40 PM
:bump:

:food-snacking:

ahahnu
12-17-07, 03:38 PM
I thought, correct me if I'm wrong that the metal spacers went where the bushings go in the suspension. I remember Doug let the suspension hang and removed a long and big bolt. Took out the poly or rubber bushings and put the metal ones in its place. From this I always thought that if one did the Spectre or UUC bushings it may be a softer ride and still not hop as much.

CTSV05
12-17-07, 09:59 PM
The spacers go around the factory bushings. They lock the cradle and the body together by eliminating the gap left by the factory.

Make sure the big bolts are TIGHT when installing.

ahahnu
12-18-07, 01:00 AM
Shows what I know.

ewill3rd
12-18-07, 09:28 AM
A picture is worth a thousand words.
;)

Seattle CTS-V
12-18-07, 12:14 PM
The spacers go around the factory bushings. They lock the cradle and the body together by eliminating the gap left by the factory.

Make sure the big bolts are TIGHT when installing.


Thanks Doug. I can't physically see the metal spacers that you remade for me. All I can see are the bushings. In fact, I can't remember seeing them the first time the kit was installed. Grrrr...

CTSV05
12-18-07, 08:38 PM
This would certainly explain the few complaints you've had, every piece is part of the total system.

Cant do pics, now that I'm a peon again..:)

Seattle CTS-V
12-18-07, 09:33 PM
Actually, I haven't really complained much at all. I did see quite a reduction in wheel hop from stock. If the steel spacers are indeed missing then I expect this kit to WOW! me again.

Seattle CTS-V
01-05-08, 02:29 AM
I had the shop fix everything up a week or so ago and I assumed it was all taken care of... But today I went under the car to adjust my exhaust and I took some pix of the bushings. Am I supposed to be able to see the white bushings? Aren't there supposed to be metal rings covering them up?

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a122/trohdy69/CTS-V/IMG_3205.jpg

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a122/trohdy69/CTS-V/IMG_3217.jpg

rand49er
01-05-08, 07:52 AM
Can't see your pics. :hmm:

ewill3rd
01-05-08, 12:58 PM
Those are the stock anti-wheel-hop bushings.
Looks like they used a spray lithium grease to keep them quiet.
That is how they are supposed to look.

The Spectres or KARS setups look different.

Seattle CTS-V
01-05-08, 02:25 PM
Can't see your pics. :hmm:


Did you turn on your monitor? :)

Seattle CTS-V
01-05-08, 02:27 PM
Those are the stock anti-wheel-hop bushings.
Looks like they used a spray lithium grease to keep them quiet.
That is how they are supposed to look.

The Spectres or KARS setups look different.


Yep, I realize that those are the stock bushings. Actually, they're the stock
TSB bushings. Anyway, my question is - am I supposed to be seeing them if Doug's steel spacers had been properly installed? I thought they are supposed to go AROUND the white bushings so that if I had taken a picture of the mount, I'd be seeing metal and not the white parts.

rgd
01-05-08, 03:44 PM
The spacers go around the factory bushings. They lock the cradle and the body together by eliminating the gap left by the factory.

Make sure the big bolts are TIGHT when installing.


Hey Doug, is it possible to get another set of spacers from you?
rgd

rand49er
01-05-08, 04:01 PM
Did you turn on your monitor? :)See 'em now ... don't what was going on. Got two of those boxes with a little red "x" in it instead of pics.

Sometime during the next month or two, if we get a couple of days near/above 50 deg, I wanna install my KARS kit, so I'm watching this thread with interest. :eye:

ahahnu
01-05-08, 05:33 PM
Doug, didn't you take mine out and put them in a little plastic bag for me? I think i still have them floating somewhere. I was beside myself the whole time I was there so my memories are inaccurate.

ewill3rd
01-05-08, 10:08 PM
I am confused, did someone (allegedly) install a KARS kit?
I have installed all kinds of anti-hop stuff, none of it involves leaving the GM bushings in place.
If the KARS stuff was installed the TSB inserts would not be there.

At least not as far as I know anyway.

Seattle CTS-V
01-06-08, 12:43 AM
Doug replied earlier on the first page of the thread and said that the steel spacers went AROUND the stock bushings...at least that's how I interpreted it.

ewill3rd
01-06-08, 12:19 PM
I don't think I have ever seen anything that goes "around" the stock bushings.
At any rate, I see nothing but the factory TSB spacers in those images.

rand49er
01-06-08, 02:05 PM
The spacers go around the factory bushings. ...


I don't think I have ever seen anything that goes "around" the stock bushings.
At any rate, I see nothing but the factory TSB spacers in those images.

:hmm:

Seattle CTS-V
01-06-08, 02:45 PM
I don't think I have ever seen anything that goes "around" the stock bushings.

Apparently, neither have I :)

Seattle CTS-V
01-07-08, 06:35 PM
Doug? Do those pix look right?

ctsv154
01-07-08, 10:10 PM
the steel spacers should take the place of the tsb bushings

Seattle CTS-V
01-08-08, 01:36 AM
I still say that go "around" the bushings, not just to replace them. The spacers are just large rings. Without the bushings in the center of the rings what would prevent them from moving around?

DarkMatter
01-08-08, 02:02 AM
Wow ... lots of confusion here. Ho'kay! Scho.... This is how it works. Without TSB bushings.... there is a large gap between the body and TOP of the bushing on all 4 cradle connection points. There IS a bushing in the cradle connects, but its smaller than the metal mount point for the cradle.... Its just rubber and the TSB bushing goes around this rubber part so both are in there. In effect, the TSB bushing or any replacement always goes around this rubber bushing. If you have the TSB bushing installed ....all you would see at the top is the TSB bushing up aginst the body and the metal part of the cradle touching the bottom of that bushing. (just like in your picture!!) At the bottom of the metal cradle mount... there is just a big washer and the bolt head. On mine, the bushing was worn out, so it sagged all the way to the washer (washer on the bolt touched the metal cradle itself. Dunno if its supposed to or not, but thats why I replaced it anyway.) The TSB adds a spacer to the top space, not the bottom as far as I have heard. If you got the KARS kit, there should be a bushing for the top, and a ring spacer for the bottom. The bushing replaces the top TSB bushing, effectivly wrapping the rubber inner bushing. The ring goes between the washer and the metal on the cradle mount and drops the cradle a bit up front. Its interesting that in your picture, there is both a bushing AND a spacer, which would make me think your shop half-assed it and only put in the metal ring spacer on the bottom because they couldn't figure out how to install the top one with the factory TSB bushing. IMHO, you should go back to the shop and note what they did wrong, then request to see what parts they had left over/did not install. If they know you know they messed up, they might admit it. Then again... they might tell you to go F yourself. You call.... I like stirring the pot personally. ;-)

**TIP*** Grease the living hell out of the top bearing BEFORE you install it or else it will sound like your car is creaking whenever the cradle is tourqued. Lithium works well, marine grease works well too. You will find lithium at home dopot/orchard supply, or any garage door company. In my experience, you will need to re-grease about once a year or so if you want it to remain quiet. Oh yeah.. and like someone already said. Tourque the balls off of the cradle bolts... they require 170ft/lbs + to be on tight enough to hold down our 400HP without launching the tires off.

ewill3rd
01-08-08, 07:50 AM
Based on the photos I see, the shop "no-assed" it because that is a factory bushing inside a frame with TSB spacers installed, and nothing more.
I have installed KARS kits, factory spacers, and the spectre bushings... all more times than I can count.
To install any of those, the factory TSB bushings come out, the "gap" is taken up by the TSB bushings and anything that is made to go in won't go in around the factory bushings. If you look closely at the photos you can see that the upper TSB bushing is bigger than the opening. If a spacer went on the outside, it would just fall down. The whole theory here is that filling the gaps between the frame and the body eliminates the movement. The factory TSB bushing goes inside the hollow portion of the bushing and GM relies on that, the spectres do both, go down inside and bridge the gap between frame and body. The KARS kits just fill the gap, they don't go inside the bushings.
They all work to a degree.

Based on what I see, if you paid someone to install a KARS kit, you got taken to the cleaners.
I am not there though. Just going on what I see.

Seattle CTS-V
01-08-08, 12:03 PM
I actually love my install shop. They typically do great work and charge fairly. I have a feeling that their new mechanic just wasn't familiar with how to install the kit and so just tucked the steel spacers away in the back of the garage hoping the customer was another typical idiot. I'm not afraid to wrench on my car but I do know what is worth my time and was is not. It's also hard to do a bunch of work w/o a lift.

ewill3rd
01-08-08, 12:26 PM
You might ask them about it, I wouldn't speculate as to what he did or didn't do.

Seattle CTS-V
01-08-08, 01:15 PM
Of course. I'm just talking out of my ass :)

Seattle CTS-V
01-08-08, 01:32 PM
Does anyone have a copy of the installation instructions? I just talking to the shop and, as expected, they'll take care of the issue but need another copy of the instructions to make sure this gets done right. Thanks!

rand49er
01-08-08, 03:21 PM
I got one. How can I get a copy to you? PM me.