: Sound Proofing material



malcolm
12-11-07, 11:44 AM
There was a brief discussion about sound proof material over on the 08 CTS board that I thought might get more traffic over here.
It seems there is a awful lot of bare sheet metal in the trunk area that only has minimal sound blocking via the trunk liner and I think adding some after market might help.
There is some very noticible road noise especially on concrete highways in NJ that gets pretty loud.
Anybody have any experience and advice for toning down the roar?:hmm:
I am looking at some b-quiet mats on the internet.
Thanks in advance:worship:

EcSTSatic
12-11-07, 02:41 PM
Eastwood (http://www.eastwoodco.com) has good prices on Dynamat. I just installed them last night in my Aerostar door panels. Haven't had a chance to test them out yet.

malcolm
12-12-07, 09:25 AM
I'm flopping around here with no experience at all in sound proofing. I also looked at b-quite and they also claim to be the best. I have no idea what to do. It looks like at minimum I need about 100 bucks of something and I would love to know if it will pay off or I am wasting my time and $$.

EcSTSatic
12-12-07, 09:42 AM
You would think some stereo buffs would chime in. It seem to me that the "sound wall" would have to be right behind the seat backs to keep it out of the cab. You could dampen the entire trunk area to achieve the same effect but who needs a quiet trunk?

Submariner409
12-12-07, 09:50 AM
Yep.......ecSTStatic hit the nail......Snoop around your local GOOD aftermarket sound installer's shop. They know how to keep the "Thump, thump" in the right places.

It won't be cheap, either. Not a fortune, but not cheap.

(and, a significant amount of reverb and road noise comes from the trunk. That's why your car is quieter when you fill the trunk with Christmas goodies and booze and drive to Grannie's for dinner.....)

malcolm
12-12-07, 10:23 AM
Seems to me if I remove the back seat and sound proof the crap under and on the back I sould pretty much kill that kettle drum of a trunk that the 08 CTS seems to be.

Black Sunshine
12-12-07, 11:54 PM
Spare tire well. That hole is like a megaphone down there right between my mufflers. Even with a full size spare in there.

This is going to be one of my Christmass holiday projects. Gonna strip his insides clean and insulate the hell out of everything.

misfit6794
12-13-07, 08:03 AM
We just had an intense discussion on this over on the bronco forums. You don't know what road noise is until you've driven a bronco on the highway.

http://www.fullsizebronco.com/forum/showthread.php?t=109895&highlight=sound+proof

malcolm
12-13-07, 09:01 AM
I am very interested in soundproofing my 08CTS but am a little shy about ripping the interrior apart to do it. I have no problem taling the trunk apart and plan on doing that as soon as we get some warm weather. Anyone have an opinion if this will be enough? I read the bronco link and am interested in some of the spray products for under the car. Again would love to hear some testimony.

MoFex
12-13-07, 10:18 AM
malcolm,

try this link: http://www.nissanmurano.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6810&highlight=deadening

There is a relatively good instruction how to do it. I will most likely do the trunk area of my CTS as there is just too much bare metal...

caddy uptown
12-14-07, 11:29 AM
dynamat it! that's it. Simple

EDBSO
12-14-07, 12:32 PM
This is what I use at a fraction of the cost of Dynamat. http://images.lowes.com/product/077578/077578023335.jpg

Take the back seat out and do the floor under it, then do the back bulkhead to the trunk and then do the underside of the rear parcel shelf.

get at Lowe or Home Depot. http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=28929-1410-FV516&detail=&lpage=none
Only $14.95
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100028603

This works very well.



http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImage/74a7887e-7c51-43f9-9115-225ed546c079_400.jpg

This is nearly a perfect sound insulator. It has foam to deaden sound. It is self adhesive and it has a foil covering to make a density change that reflects sound rather than transmits it.

It works well, is easy to install and it is inexpensive.

malcolm
12-14-07, 01:53 PM
Excellent, I was in the dealership this morning and mentioned to one of the techs that I thought the CTS was loud on the road and he said all GMs are loud but this one seems more so that others I have owned. I asked him if he thought soundproofing would help and he thought no but I am doing it anyway.

EcSTSatic
12-14-07, 03:02 PM
Here's an article on the topic of sound damping a vehicle.
I can't imagine that a material designed to trap heat is the best choice for sound damping if you are serious about it.

http://www.caraudiomag.com/technical/0704_cae_installing_dynamat/index.html

EDBSO
12-14-07, 04:08 PM
I can't imagine that a material designed to trap heat is the best choice for sound damping if you are serious about it.


http://corvetteactioncenter.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65740&highlight=FROST+KING

The Corvette guys would say you don't know what you are talking about!

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-442630.html

BMW guys think you are full of it to.

You are not worth wasting any more time on. The following are DIY photos.
http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94676

EDBSO
12-14-07, 04:19 PM
PS If you are serious about sounproofing your aircraft...

I sound proofed my other Aluminum beast about three years ago. (A single engine airplane). The FAA is a bit picky about what you use for such things as aircraft parts. Well I ordered a sound proofing kit ($500.00- you thought Rover stuff was expensive!). The kit contained a very expensive FAA approved piece of paper and seven rolls of "Frost King" brand 1/4 inch foam backed with aluminum foil. This is the same stuff (sans FAA letter required by law) used to deaden sound on ridged A/C duct. Home Depot sells it for $19.00 a roll. On the plane, I first pulled all of the interior trim and insulation out, stuck the frost king stuff to the inside of the aluminum skin and reinstalled the insulation and trim."

Obviously good stuff and you get 15 square feet for the price of one foot of Dynamat. Definitely worth considering. Rgds...

I only post about what I know and about what I have personally done!

EcSTSatic
12-14-07, 04:20 PM
You are not worth wasting any more time on. The following are DIY photos.
http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94676

Chill dude.
I said I can't imagine it being as good, I didn't claim any absolutes like you did. "nearly a perfect sound insulator" indeed. Then how come there are so many alternatives? Wouldn't everyone be using your "near perfect" material if it were true? Who's wasting whose time?

Black Sunshine
12-14-07, 04:30 PM
I can't imagine that a material designed to trap heat is the best choice for sound damping if you are serious about it.

So you have no imagination?:duck:

Look, if you haven't tried it, don't knock it. That Lowe's stuff works very well. I've used it in three of my cars with excellent results. Used a hot air gun with the roller to get very good glue adhesion.

Plus, I'm a miser and LOVE saving money doin mods.

misfit6794
12-14-07, 05:39 PM
This is exactly what happened on the bronco forums.

EcSTSatic
12-14-07, 06:15 PM
Geesh, don't you guys understand English?
I never said don't use it. I simply said in fewer words, that the duct insulator is designed for stopping heat loss and there are other products designed for blocking sound waves. These are different frequencies. Then there are some designed for heat and sound which require a combination of materials. They are not the same products so the choices are out there. I imagine, once again that there is no perfect or even "nearly perfect" material available to consumers. But given the choice, I (myself) would go with the one designed for sound waves.
This forum is for exchanging ideas, shutting down the suggestion that the cheapest way may not be the best way to achieve a goal is nonsense.
That's it from me.

EDBSO
12-15-07, 11:41 AM
I love these independent thinkers who believe everyone else's experience is worthless and an approval by the aircraft industry and the FAA is the cherry on their argument. If a government regulator approves it then it has to be worthless.

The Frost King solution is a light weight high tech solution. If you want the perfect solution (and I know you will also dispute this to) you will use 3 layers of 1/8 lead sheeting. You will have a near soundproof car. It will weigh an extra 8,000 pounds, or more, and it will be so quiet you will not hear the frame dragging on the ground!

You might have to use 6 layers of 1/16 lead it come in rolls 4' by 25' and only weighs 400 pounds each.

AND! a quote from Frost King ... "Insulating heating and air conditioning ducts improves efficiency as it reduces vibration and noise." Isn't that what we are trying to do on our poorly sound insulated cars. I know it made a big difference on my Eldorado and even on my Mercedes!.

Mystic Knight
12-15-07, 01:48 PM
Hi guys. I'm new to the forum but this is something I can definitly chime in on.

I've put deadener in almost every vehicle I've owned. I've used the stuff from Home Depot with ok results but nothing like what you can get if you're willing to spend some cash. I've tried Dynomat. It used to be "the standard". It was ok but Dynomat Extreme is much better. They're two completly different kinds of material. Dynomat only kills one kind of sound though, rattling body panels.

I'm working on a project truck right now. It's a '91 Jimmy with a SB V8 Conversion, ceramic headers, and a flowmaster 40 series exhaust. Needless to say, it needs plenty of deadener. I've decided to use products from Second Skin Audio (http://www.secondskinaudio.com). It's by far the best deadener I've ever used.

This is what's going into the truck:
http://www.oaktowntrucks.com/photogallery/albums/projects/91_Jimmy_Progress_New/DSC04216.jpg

Traditional noise mats are mostly inefficient mass loaders; Many (Like Dynomat) use an asphalt base to do the sound deadening. Who wants their vehicle smelling like a highway?

Damplifier is not a mass loader. It is a constraint layer damper that converts the vibrational enery in to low level heat. This conversion of energy makes it 300% more efficient than mass loaders while weighing much less.
http://www.oaktowntrucks.com/photogallery/albums/projects/91_Jimmy_Progress_New/DSC04217.jpg

Next I'll be using Heat Wave on the floor and firewall. Heat wave protects over 500 degrees and acts a a second layer of sound deadener to block road noise. It's similar to the backing you guys have on your carpet. Probably not something you need to be concerned with unless you've done some heavy modification.

After that I'll be using Rattle pad between the interior trim and the body panels. Rattle Pad is an open-celled acoustical foam treated with a protective urethane facing on both sides. When applied between your cars upholstery and sheet metal frame, the pressure it creates acts like a cushion that isolates the trim from the metal.

If you guys are interested in some of the Second Skin products e-mail Anthony at Second Skin Audio. He's usually willing to work on the price if you're puting in a decent sized order.

Hope this helps guys. Let me know if you have any more questions.

Mystic Knight
12-15-07, 02:05 PM
Oh, one other thing. I subscribe to Car Audio and Electronics. It's a great magazine with a lot of great info but beware of some of their recommendations. They tend to use a lot of their advertisers materials in their installs and reviews. Dynomat, Rockford, Eclipse, etc. Do some research on some audio forums if you're looking for real honest opinions. www.CarAudio.com (http://www.caraudio.com)has a good forum.

EcSTSatic
12-15-07, 07:16 PM
Oh, one other thing. I subscribe to Car Audio and Electronics. It's a great magazine with a lot of great info but beware of some of their recommendations. They tend to use a lot of their advertisers materials in their installs and reviews. Dynomat, Rockford, Eclipse, etc. Do some research on some audio forums if you're looking for real honest opinions. www.CarAudio.com (http://www.caraudio.com)has a good forum.

No wait, our resident expert will tell you you are wasting your time on all of this reading. Just follow his recommendation, it's all you need to know!

Thanks for the posts MK

dkozloski
12-15-07, 08:54 PM
A/C duct liner is applied to handle two different problems at once. It helps keep the heat or cold inside the duct with insulation and it reduces resonance and duct rumble by adding mass to the sidewalls. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Duct liner is a very effective and economical sound proofing material. If you don't think that heat insulation deadens sound try yelling for help from inside a walk-in freezer. I've been in an anechoic chamber lined with foam rubber insulation and it was so quiet you could hear your own heartbeat.

EcSTSatic
12-15-07, 10:59 PM
You guys really don't get it do you? No one is saying foam insulation doesn't deaden sound. Heck, even cardboard makes a difference! :helpless:

We're trying to respond to the original request for experience and advice on sound deadening. It's a forum folks. You know: "A public meeting place, radio or TV program, or area in a newspaper or computer bulletin board in which two or more people may openly discuss ideas."
Credentials don't impress me. I've worked on aircraft and aircraft engineering design for over 30 years including military fighters, Cessna business jets and Boeing commercial airliners.

dkozloski
12-16-07, 12:27 AM
You guys really don't get it do you? No one is saying foam insulation doesn't deaden sound. Heck, even cardboard makes a difference! :helpless:

We're trying to respond to the original request for experience and advice on sound deadening. It's a forum folks. You know: "A public meeting place, radio or TV program, or area in a newspaper or computer bulletin board in which two or more people may openly discuss ideas."
Credentials don't impress me. I've worked on aircraft and aircraft engineering design for over 30 years including military fighters, Cessna business jets and Boeing commercial airliners.
What's your area of expertise? I've done some structures and powerplant installation.

Sinister Angel
12-16-07, 02:57 AM
Awww shit, we're hijackin this thread in the name of Aviation!

Airstation Traverse City represent!
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/135/373867362_34224baa01_b.jpg

Black Sunshine
12-16-07, 07:30 AM
Ewwww, bet it cold as a well digger's ass up there in Traverse City right now.
Brrrrrrrrr......

Mr. Ecstatic, man please.

No one is saying we aren't actually gonna end up spending big bucks to do this procedure according to the recommendations of the audiophiles that have posted. I made my contibution to this thread in providing (from experience) a second to the recommendation of applying an alternative product for those that may not want to put money into sound deadening but into their components or maybe even horsepower mods while getting the biggest bang for their bucks.


who needs a quiet trunk?

You haven't riddin in a V with headers, x-pipe and magnaflow cat back yet, evidently.


I said I can't imagine it being as good

And as soon as some folks post up information to help you KNOW it might be as good they are flaming you somehow? Sounds like thin skin to me.


We're trying to respond

Us against them, huh? That dog ain't huntin. Most of us are here to enjoy ourselves, share our experiences and help others to avoid the mistakes we've made.


our resident expert

Wow. I bet you're fun around the house with your sarcastic remarks making everyone real happy.


Credentials don't impress me. I've worked on aircraft and aircraft engineering design for over 30 years including military fighters, Cessna business jets and Boeing commercial airliners.

So, they don't impress you but yours are supposed to impress us?

Never mind. Kinda hoping you'd stick with another of your statements in this thread:


That's it from me.

(Jeez, time for me to bail on this. I know it's time to go when I start analyzing the thread instead of the topic. Mystic, let us know how the truck project turns out and to those that decide to use the Lowes option, may you enjoy your mod.)

malcolm
12-16-07, 09:01 AM
Wow, lots of resposes an opinions but I am still confused. I liked the Frost King idea but the roll apparently is quite small and if I need 10 rolls of the stuff I am not really saving much money. I am sure almost anything in the trunk is going to help. I just completed a short 150 mile throughway trip with a trunk full of stuff and the car was noticably quite. I can't do much today it's freezing in NJ and not good peel and stick conditions.
Regarding the doors, how difficult is it ro remove the door panels? My major concern is not getting them back on right.

Black Sunshine
12-16-07, 09:34 AM
$14.74 for 12" x 15' (180 ft2) comes to $0.08/ft2.

Dynamat Extreme "bulk" pack (32 ft2) found for $113
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=blended&field-keywords=dynomat&results-process=default&dispatch=search/ref=pd_sl_aw_tops-1_blended_17312861_2&results-process=default

100 ft2 bulk pack of FatMat is $89.
http://www.fatmat.com/bulk/fatmat/100.html

Boom Mat 20 ft2 for $268?!?
http://www.designengineering.com/products.asp?m=sp&pid=58

BeQuiet's is 100 ft2 for $140.
http://www.b-quiet.com/extreme.html

At these prices you could quadruple layer the Lowes stuff and still save huge.

EcSTSatic
12-16-07, 10:20 AM
(Jeez, time for me to bail on this. I know it's time to go when I start analyzing the thread instead of the topic. Mystic, let us know how the truck project turns out and to those that decide to use the Lowes option, may you enjoy your mod.)

Nah. It's more like you need to read these comments in context, not pull out phrases to make your point.

And yes you could quadruple the FK and be cheaper but that would be a bad idea wouldn't it in terms of putting everything back together? So that statement is lost on me.

Sinister Angel
12-16-07, 12:30 PM
Ewwww, bet it cold as a well digger's ass up there in Traverse City right now.
Brrrrrrrrr......

Heh, just slightly, and I don't really get cold. Apparently windy too..


KTVC 161653Z 02013G28KT 8SM OVC036 M02/M08 A2974 RMK AO2 PK WND 01028/1646 SNB26E34 SLP079 P0000 T10221083

Can someone tell me what the SNB26E34 is? I don't remember seeing that in remarks anytime before.

Black Sunshine
12-16-07, 02:03 PM
Nah. It's more like you need to read these comments in context, not pull out phrases to make your point.

And yes you could quadruple the FK and be cheaper but that would be a bad idea wouldn't it in terms of putting everything back together? So that statement is lost on me.

You keep providing the ammo. I'll keep shoot'n it back atcha. Dish it out but can't take it.

First, everything's literal. Then figurative. Now literal again.

Dynamat is now selling the concept of multiple layers of foam, aluminum and asphalt tar and recommends the use of a R-A-Z-O-R K-N-I-F-E at mounting locations. Amazing!

Lost? Evidently. Maybe you're just better suited to your tattoo thread where you spread misinformation you get from your hairdresser.

EcSTSatic
12-16-07, 05:44 PM
Lost? Evidently. Maybe you're just better suited to your tattoo thread where you spread misinformation you get from your hairdresser.

And once again you take comments out of context. I said I didn't know if it was true or not and I didn't dispute someone who said it wasn't. You don't even mention the point of the thread which was about people getting tattoos that don't mean what the wearer thought. But that's another topic, I don't know why you are bringing that into here.
But hey, if you ever get tired of your present job, you should get into politics.

dkozloski
12-16-07, 06:25 PM
Quite the battle. Egos at keyboard distance.

EcSTSatic
12-16-07, 06:52 PM
Quite the battle. Egos at keyboard distance.

You're right Koz. It ain't worth it. I'm done.

dkozloski
12-16-07, 07:17 PM
Soundproofing is a very subjective operation. The most bothersome of sounds are the low frequency rumbles that are the hardest to muffle. The most effective method is isolation with false walls and suspended floors and ceilings. This doesn't work for cars. There are so many variables that truly the best method of approach is trial and error. Common sense says to first try the cheapest thing available at hand and see if it works for you. If need be you can branch out to the exotic and expensive at a later time. There will always be the purists and theorists that insist that only the newest and best is good enough for them but this is also the element that is used to someone else footing the bill. I had some noise coming from the back seat area of my CTS. I removed the back seat to find that the existing factory soundproofing material had been dislodged by a clumsy mechanic replacing a load leveling shock absorber. I repositioned it correctly and used ordinary duct tape to afix it in position. Problem solved. My problem was simple. Yours may be as well. You'll never know until you tinker with it some. Let us know how it turns out.

EDBSO
12-16-07, 10:30 PM
Mystic Knight has it all figured. If you have a large budget follow his advise. If you don't "Mystic Knight I've used the stuff from Home Depot with ok results but nothing like what you can get if you're willing to spend some cash."

Want to spend even more? http://www.partsexpress.com/images/260-535m.jpg The Sonic Barrier 1-1/4" 3-layer composite damping material is a premium acoustic absorption and barrier material. It uses the three layers to achieve excellent reduction. An exclusive embossed surface finish helps to trap the acoustic energy into a 1" acoustic foam where it is converted to low-level heat. A 1/4" foam layer covered with 1 lb. limp copolymer vinyl barrier. A very aggressive pressure sensitive adhesive provides easy and permanent installation onto any surface.
The 1-1/4" overall thickness provides the maximum acoustic absorption properties for the highest performance. The 1" foam layer will act as a conventional high-performance acoustic foam, and effectively absorb reflections . At the same time, the heavyweight vinyl barrier and 1/4" isolation foam will prevent the acoustic energy from penetrating the cabin. Expensive at $8.00 a square foot. Frost King $1.00 a square foot. I decided on Frost King but do have 2 sheets of the high end in the garage.

Black Sunshine
12-16-07, 10:55 PM
Definite brain fart on that frost king cost calc. Thanks for straightening that out.

malcolm
01-06-08, 06:27 PM
I finally found the Frost King insulation and need to weather to warm up a little before I install. Has anyone done the trunk of an 08 CTS? There are some plastic push in rivet like things that will probably break when I remove them can these be had at an auto supply?