: Thanks for nothing, Northstar.



Playdrv4me
12-07-07, 02:37 PM
Well, it finally happened.

A Cadillac got me in trouble. As you all remember I had purchased a 1998 STS which I wasn't too fond of cosmetically, but to the best of my knowledge had no mechanical problems at all.

I even had made a thread in the Seville forum about normal ranges for the temp gauge, and everything seemed just fine.

I put the car up for sale and was very honest about it's condition, especially the cosmetic flaws. I put that it ran well and as far as I knew had no problems mechanically. Made sure to mention that it was AS IS and that I couldnt possibly know every problem with any car of course.

So the car ended up selling for basically what I paid for it (even less when you consider the 125.00 I spent on the detail job and misc. other expenses), and I even agreed to meet the buyer 100 miles away since he was flying in from out of state.

As some of you know on the way there the stupid radiator side-tank cracked. I called the buyer and told him I would be happy to refund his deposit, or get the car fixed the next morning... again, at my expense. Well, 565.00 and a new water pump (needlessly replaced) and radiator later, I had the car back, and by this time the buyer had already flown back home since he had come to look at the car in person, but the radiator was not yet fixed. (The GM shop replaced the WP when they should have done the rad, so I had to send it back). The car never overheated and when they pressure tested it they found the only leak was at the radiator (which they should have done in the first place). Fine, I finally get my fixed car back and am assured by the Service Manager at the Chevrolet dealership I got stuck next to that it was for sure no longer leaking, he would "bet that service tech's job on it".

Fast forward to two weeks later and the guy comes and picks up the car. At this point I had discounted him ANOTHER 125.00 to help pay for his flight back down here for the trouble.

We both sign bills of sale stating the car is AS IS AGAIN. I have my cash and the guy leaves, and Im just happy the whole fiasco is over.

Then 6 days later the guy calls me ranting about how he only made it 500 miles before he had to refill the coolant. Then when he got home he had it pressure tested and they found cylinder 1 was leaking coolant. Bad HG. Quoted over 3.5k for the repair. To add to the torment, this shop he took the car said the water pump was STILL leaking (the supposedly replaced one), and the coolant manifold had some issue as well.

At this point I proceed to tell him the sale was as-is and there was nothing I could do even though I felt really terrible, I also made it clear that in the state of FL ALL private-party sales are considered AS IS regardless of paperwork or not. We had some curt words and he accused me of KNOWING the HG was bad before I sold the car, and He tells me he is going to talk to his attorney, so basically threatening a lawsuit. Great, I think to myself... "A Northstar has finally managed to get me sued".

I called him back the next day feeling bad for my poor attitude, and offered him 1k to help with his repairs. At this point, this would be 2k Ive lost on this stupid car. He has the gall to tell me he will *THINK* about it and the next thing I hear is an Ebay Safeharbor/Insurance representative calling to get my side of what happened.

So long story short, I was again accused of lying but I told the ebay people I would stand by my offer of 1k to help the guy out. They spoke with him, then called me back and told me he finally agreed to that offer (probably because they werent going to give him a penny). We will see if he tries to extort more money out of me.

I hadn't posted about this because I was afraid of the legal ramifications, but sheesh what a f****ing circus.

gary88
12-07-07, 03:08 PM
Speaking of Sevilles, I just got mine back from the dealer for a $1400 rear main seal leak repair (thank you warranty).

Northstars for the most part seem to be a hit or miss deal, leaning more towards miss.

Lord Cadillac
12-07-07, 03:09 PM
The facts are, you sold it as is, you truly believed the radiator was repaired and you had no idea about the other issue. Because he wants to sue you and has got eBay involved, I think you should consider giving him nothing. Unless you're convinced he'll follow through with court and you can lose. It doesn't sound like a court case that would last very long. I mean, it seems to me that, especially since you live in Florida with the "as is" law, you're safe. What attorney would even bother with the case?

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-07-07, 03:10 PM
Wow, what a sham. He signed the contract saying "as is", and I'd assume he test drove it and got it good and warm to test for the HG's. Oh well though, if he signed the contract, I guess there's really nothing you have to do. Even giving him the $1,000 is a sign of good will at this point.

And this is why I avoid the Northstar at all costs.

Playdrv4me
12-07-07, 03:11 PM
I just have alot going on in my life right now, health issues and all kinds of stuff. I dont like the feeling of having people breathing down my neck especially with so much else going on.

If I dont give him the money now, it will open up an entirely new can of worms.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-07-07, 03:14 PM
I wonder if the Northstar would be less subjective to overheating if you ran holy water through it?

Playdrv4me
12-07-07, 03:16 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Nice.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-07-07, 03:23 PM
Could it be entirely possible that a HG can go in one day? I mean, if you've never had problems with them, and he does the day he picked it up, could it mean that they went south in one day?

Playdrv4me
12-07-07, 03:27 PM
Well according to him it has still never overheated, but he drove it alot more than I did, and alot father. I drove it in town and other than the coolant level dropping from the MASSIVE LEAK AT THE RADIATOR, I never had to add any.

I also didnt have to add any between the 130 miles I drove the car back from Fort Myers, the time I had the car here, and the 65 miles or so to the place where the radiator tank ruptured.

Car only had 66k.

Cadillacboy
12-07-07, 03:39 PM
Feck,that sucks . I really hate to see when such nice members are suffering from their beloved cars . In fact, 66K is pretty low mileage .

Rolex
12-07-07, 03:40 PM
Buying used vehicles with no warranty = caveat emptor. You owe this person SQUAT! Don't give him a dime. If he signed an "as is" bill of sale he doesn't have a leg to stand on. There's no way he can prove you knew of any pre-existing problems, which leaves him with no civil recourse. If the vehicle ran long enough to get him home where he parked it in his driveway, he got his $$$ worth.

He'll never win against you in claims court. Don't sweat it.


eta: You were more generous than I would have been. For all you know he could have put the pedal to the medal for those 500 miles and caused the damage himself.

dkozloski
12-07-07, 03:40 PM
It holds right up to the day it starts to leak. There might have been some overheating happen unnoticed with the radiator leak that weakened it. Who's to know now?

ted tcb
12-07-07, 04:47 PM
You did the right thing, sharing in the expense. I would've done the same.
Are you still looking for another STS, or is that it with the N* experience for you?
Did you sell your mom's older LS400?

BTW, thanks again for your advice to me on my 2000 LS400 ... the car feels like
it will circle the globe without missing a beat. First used car I've bought with absolutely zero
issues. It simply feels over engineered.
Three months later, the dealer I traded my STS in at is still sitting on it ... he's lowered the price by $2k,
but its not moving.

http://www.thornhillsaturnsaab.com/

ted tcb
12-07-07, 04:49 PM
Select "Cadillac" to see pictures of my old 2001 silver STS.

creeker
12-07-07, 04:57 PM
I think you were very fair with him,you have nothing to feel guilty about.

Jesda
12-07-07, 05:46 PM
You did the right thing, sharing in the expense. I would've done the same.
Are you still looking for another STS, or is that it with the N* experience for you?
Did you sell your mom's older LS400?

BTW, thanks again for your advice to me on my 2000 LS400 ... the car feels like
it will circle the globe without missing a beat. First used car I've bought with absolutely zero
issues. It simply feels over engineered.


Man, those 90s-era (engineering era, not model year) Lexuses just refuse to die.

Destroyer
12-07-07, 06:05 PM
You are doing the right thing. That car with the HG's gone is worth nothing!. I almost bought a '97 Deville the other day with blown HG's for $200. It was mint otherwise and had 77k miles!. I thought about parting it out but I just thought it would be too much trouble. Anyway, its obvious you didn't know such a problem existed but in most likelyhood the HG's were on the way out for awhile. When my '98 HG's went out I fully disclosed it to prospective buyers and took a real beating on the price even though the car still ran good and wasn't blowing anything out the pipes. $1k to sleep better at night?. I think its worth it.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-07-07, 07:02 PM
BTW, thanks again for your advice to me on my 2000 LS400 ... the car feels like
it will circle the globe without missing a beat. First used car I've bought with absolutely zero
issues. It simply feels over engineered.


Almost think I should have bought one of those. Almost....

Maybe I'll get an LS430 next...

Destroyer
12-07-07, 08:06 PM
Almost think I should have bought one of those. Almost....

Maybe I'll get an LS430 next...When and if I am in the market for a highline luxury sedan a Lexus may just be the car I get. Right now I dont see it happening though. I bought the Benz cause I was an active Realtor and needed something that wasn't embarrassing to take out clients. I am now involved in other things and just dont need one. Lexus will never have the prestige of a Benz and Benz will never have the reliability of a Lexus.

hueterm
12-07-07, 08:40 PM
You were more than generous. If giving him the $1000 gives you peace of mind, then it was worth it -- but you didn't owe him anything. You had it fixed in good faith. If anything he should have gone after the dealer for the leaking water pump.

He should have paid to have it tested before buying it -- he has no room to complain.

LS1Mike
12-07-07, 09:09 PM
Sorry to here it. I am a GM guy, have always been save for the Turbo Dodges, I however would not own a N*.
The guy who bought...Shit out of luck. AS IS, you as a private dude, the guy really has no recourse no fu(king sane laywer would
take his case.

Onalaska
12-07-07, 09:11 PM
Did the guy offer some kind of proof that the HG is bad? I wouldn't take his word on it and part with any money without some kind of proof. Also don't you have proof of the repairs you made before he purchased it? I would think that would clear your responsibility in any case.

AMGoff
12-07-07, 10:08 PM
Listen you, and listen very carefully... DO NOT give this guy a dime. I mean it... I will honestly lose whatever respect I have for you.

You didn't do anything wrong, and if he did try to pursue any sort of legal action then the case would go no where real fast. Frankly, I either doubt he even contacted a lawyer... or if he did, he was already told the same thing - that not only was the deal made (and presumably signed and agreed to) "as-is," but that FL is an "as-is" state... which is probably why he contacted eBay because he now thinks that's his only course of action. Beyond that, there's not jack-squat eBay can do to you... it's a he said/he said, and you can prove that you already did what you could to fix whatever was wrong with it, and was told by the dealer that any issues were fixed. He's pissed, so of course he'll be balking and barking... but he'll get over it.

Cease all verbal contact with this guy and send him a certified letter stating that while you are sorry he is having problems with the car, there's nothing you can do about it, and if he insists holding anyone but himself liable, then he should get in contact with the dealer who (mis)repaired the car. You should also state in the letter that you retract your offer because he decided to escalate the situation while you were attempting to amends even though you were under no obligation to do so.

It's tough luck for this guy for sure, but that's the gamble that comes with buying a car as-is. IF you had knowingly sold the car to him with problems then yes, you should in good conscience offer him reparations, or IF you were to hold the dealer liable for faulty repairs then you should pass along whatever refunds you receive from them. But honestly... the first one isn't true and the second one isn't worth it...

So really, I mean really... listen to me on this. You've made comment before about how you and I are probably more similar than either of us would probably like to admit... Because of that, you KNOW that this is BS, that you DON'T owe this guy anything, that this guy is ONLY blowing off steam, and that there is NOTHING he can do about it.

You're already out far too much money from this whole experiment, there is no need whatsoever to put yourself out even more. I really can't say this any more clearly...

DO NOT DO IT!

Brizzal
12-07-07, 11:16 PM
thats why im glad i got the 4.9 instead :)

wait4me6920
12-07-07, 11:22 PM
May be a bit awkward to change course now, but were it me, I'd still tell 'im to suck lemons...

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-08-07, 09:24 AM
"POUND SAND *******!!!!"


Your advice to the guy with the STS now. :)

Cadillacboy
12-08-07, 09:30 AM
Almost think I should have bought one of those. Almost....

Maybe I'll get an LS430 next...

You have been driving a genuine item and why would go for the replicas afterwards ? lol :cookoo:

CadillacSTS42005
12-08-07, 01:50 PM
you and i have already spoke about this privately play
my opinion still stands

and fyi talk all the trash you want on a N*
the engines a cake walk to work on
and ive had 7 northstars in my immediate family including my own
16 if you count all my aunts uncles and such
guess what my 97 ETC is the ONLY one who had blown HGS
even after that id still buy a N*

20 minutes to do a tune up try doing that on a 4.9 in under an hr
alt and compressor is a 2 hour affair, again try that on any other slanted motor

the N* is one of the most user friendly engines period

if you want to talk trash on an engine with headgaskets dont even get me started on the Chevy POS 2.2

within one month yes ONE month ive replaced three headgaskets and two engines (the blown hg went on for so long the engine was GONE due to warped cracked heads and block)

oh and yea the mileage on one of them was only 23k and those are cast iron blocks.

id rather work on a N* or a 4.0 Shortstar anyday over a "cheap parts" Chevy

oh and how about the 3.4 which is a DOHC cast iron engine as well
we had a guy come in with a 97 Z34 Monte and wanted his timing belt swapped
well my boss left it up to me and i said sure why not
changed the belt and a week later the guy comes back with a blown motor
guess why!!!
does anyone here know the 3.4 not only has a timing belt for its DOHC but also a mother loving TIMING CHAIN
no one knew not of it, not the manual we had, the dealer we called NOBODY
so then i had to do an engine swap on that POS
to even get to HALF of the wiring to unplug you have to remove the intake which runs all the way to the TB which is right at the air box.

again the N* has master plugs that you can unplug to remove an engine, no unpluging each and every sensor to pull an engine

ok and before everyone next comes in this is why i bought a 5.7 LT1 and how its such a reliable and great engine yea you do and should i even mention OPTI-SPARK

you people complain of the high cost of repairs, i say your all naive, those engines are CAKE complete CAKE to work on, your paying the high price because people hear northstar and since its a modern engine no one want to work on them so your forced to go to the dealer and pay a ridicules rate to have anything fixed

stop whining about the price buy a set a tools pick up a mother loving book known as a service manual and READ it and do your own repairs!

the N* is a lightweight aluminum 4.6 DOHC engine producing 300 horsepower, yes now a days that doesnt mean much but name any DOHC putting that much power down stock, the FORD 4.6 was only good for 260, hyundai and other imports with DOHC cant touch it
the N* is an engineering marvel and has lasted for almost 2 decades, name any other motor that had endured that long without having size (like the LS v8s) changes

CadillacSTS42005
12-08-07, 02:05 PM
sorry for that rand but im tired of all the friggen 4.6 N* anti sediment, some of the N* bashers such as brizzal havent even ever owned one so they have NO right to complain about oooo look at the N* headgasket problem
ive owned one that had the hgs blow and i still would buy a 4.6 n* in a heartbeat

AMGoff
12-08-07, 04:41 PM
Wow... while I agree that it is a fine motor and that most people's HG-related anti-Northstar senTiments are unwarranted... I wouldn't go as far to imply that it is the "Jesus Christ" of internal combustion engines.

To say the the Northstar is one of the most user friendly engines period is absurd. That's a completely subjective statement, of course they're "easy" for you because your family has some sort of infatuation with them and it was probably the first or one of the first engines you ever learned to work on. However, for most people who had learned to work on old jalopies with carbureted, pushrod motors, I doubt many would list the Northstar as the most user friendly to work on. Sure, GM engineers may have designed some thoughtful touches into it, but it's still one complex beast.

Frankly, anything that has fuel-injection has the possibility to be a PITA, then add to that anything with an OHC design and the PITA factor is compounded.

Yes Virginia, the 5.7/350 is easy to work on, the 5.9/360, the 4.3 V6, the 4.0/4.2 straight-six, hell even the 3.8 - those are "easy" engines to work on.

I'm also trying to figure out why you kept bringing up the "DOHC" nature of the Northstar... let me let you in on a little secret - OHC doesn't necessarily equate to being superior to OHV. In reality, OHC is best suited for inline and small displacement engines. Personally, I think anything over 3.0L, OHC isn't always preferable.. especially when an OHV can do the job, do it better, do it cheaper, and do it simpler.

And whooptie-do... the Northstar has been around for 15 years (not 20).. that's nothing to write home about...

The Jeep 4.2 AND 4.0 were both in service for 19 years... '71-'90 for the 4.2 and '87-'06 for latter, the AMC 2.5 was around for 18 years until '02, the AMC 360 was around for 21 years until '91, and the LA Chrysler 360 was in use for 32 years from '71-'03. The Ford Windsor small-block was around in various forms from '62-'00, and even the modular 4.6 has been around since '91. Saab has been using their four-banger for 27 years now, since '81, the Chevy 153 was in production for 22 years until '84, the GM 3.8 has been around in it's various incarnations since '88 and is still in use, the 4.3 goes back further to '85 and is still in use, and the granddaddy Chevy smallblock 350 was around in it's various forms for 36 years.

So really... 15 years, yeah it's a good run, that's because it's a good engine, but still nothing too impressive.

So bottom line... yes, some people give the Northstar too much of a bad rap sometimes... every engine has problems... even the 4.9. But it's just an engine... albeit a good engine, but not one that great to be placed on such high a pedestal.

Playdrv4me
12-08-07, 04:47 PM
Jason I hope that wasn't directed at me. I wasn't bashing the Northstar. I am frustrated yes, but I never said this is a "piece of shit" engine or anything negative.

I posted the facts, as they are, and thats all. Im not bashing it, I simply cant trust it, at least 93-99. At least in those years, I vastly prefer Ford's mod 4.6 motor in both it's cammed and non cammed versions. Ford has failures in places where GM excelled too. It's just the nature of the industry.

I would agree with Adam though that this is not a DYI (or mod)-friendly motor. You have alot of experience with engines and the Northstar itself... alot of people here look up to you FOR that reason. But many people just aren't as experienced as you and they can do alot on a SBC that they can't on a Northstar.

By the way Adam, I read your earlier post and I am taking what you said under consideration. Thanks for all of the opinions and support guys.

Destroyer
12-08-07, 06:47 PM
I've bashed on the Northstar quite a bit after my HG's went on the '98. In retrospect though I have to say that even though the N* has issues with the headgaskets its not the motor in itself that is the BIG problem. The BIG problem with Northstar powered cars is the cars themselves being too cramped for that big DOHC motor.Think about it, if there was room to do the head gaskets in the engine compartment and you didn't have to drop the motor out it wouldn't be so bad and the repairs would be a LOT less money. Deville+N*= Wrong motor in wrong car.

CadillacSTS42005
12-08-07, 09:53 PM
nah play it wasnt direct at you

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-08-07, 11:25 PM
Jason, just out of curiosity, where did your love of the Northstar start?

Brizzal
12-09-07, 12:08 AM
nah play it wasnt direct at you
i find it funny how some members get all pissy :violin: about things other people post. I dont like the n*, thats why i didnt get it. You can love the n* all u want and i could careless, woop-de-do. There was no need for you to go on your little "rant" about my post

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-09-07, 12:27 AM
Isn't GM stopping production of the Northstar in a few years anyways? Like in '09 or so?

Brizzal
12-09-07, 12:32 AM
i dont know, i havent heard anything about that

Night Wolf
12-09-07, 01:40 AM
I dunno, but GM needs to do something with the base NA Northstars power... in all its 15 yrs, power hasn't changed.

in 1992, 300hp was sweet, these were some of the fastest "normal" cars around, let alone FWD..... but today.... V6 Accords and Camrys are closing in on that 300hp mark.... time to change it up a bit.... but without adding turbo or super chargers.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-09-07, 01:45 AM
I agree, they're up to like 320 now, but still...

Playdrv4me
12-09-07, 03:24 AM
The Mercedes 5.0L was making 302hp up through 2006, so the Northstar was actually ahead of it there for a while. However, it has been completely eclipsed by the 5.5L which is now making 382hp.

Simple solution... Increase the Northstar's displacement and you can give it another 10 years of usable life. Question is... can the Northstar handle a bump to 5 or 5.4L of displacement, or is its engineering so hopelessly locked into its current configuration that it would be impossible to do so reliably.

I have not heard anything about the Northstar being retired, however it would seem that introducing an all-new powerplant would probably the most logical and cost-effective solution. It would be nice to see GM wipe the slate clean and have 1993 all over again with a brand new breakthrough powerplant.

Jesda
12-09-07, 10:24 AM
Many people hate the Northstar because its a potential financial burden and massive inconvenience, at least in FWD GM products. Some are luckier than others. Last time I did a head gasket, it cost me $300. RWD Mazda 929.

Logical configuration is the key to low service costs.

CadillacSTS42005
12-09-07, 10:52 AM
the "love" i have for them is plain and simple
as a mechanic i LOVE easy engines and that engine is by far the simplest engine i have ever worked on, INCLUDING carbeds

and Brizzal you can play the violin all you want but its this simple you dont want one cuz you cant afford the maintenance on one and your too ignorant to do the work yourself.
theres no other logical reason why someone would want a 4.9 over a 4.6
gas mileage goes to the 4.6
power to the 4.6
ease to work on again 4.6

the only thing the 4.9 has over the 4.6 is the "cheapness" of headgaskets and lemme inform you, while it may not be as common, its no easier to do on that car than a 4.6 is, you just get to skip the timesert step which is the EASY part of the job

Brett
12-09-07, 10:55 AM
havent read the whole thread so not sure if this has been said, but make sure you have him sign a document that the $1000 releases you from any further liability...pay an attorney to do the document, should cost you around $100. if you need some names PM me

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-09-07, 12:38 PM
Many people hate the Northstar because its a potential financial burden and massive inconvenience, at least in FWD GM products. Some are luckier than others.

Gotta agree with you there. Back when I was shopping for a new car earlier this year, my #1 pick, at least in the early stages, was a 2000-02 Eldorado Touring Coupe, because I had experienced the Northstar twice and loved it...and I knew that the '00+ models were less likely to get the HG issues, and for other various reasons. I love the way the Eldorado looks inside and out, and the way it drove...basically I was dead set on that car, but it had to be atleast a 2000 and it had to be an ETC with under 80k on it. Well I found two of them, that met my criteria, back in early August (as a point of reference, I bought the Benz on August 24th), I think I found them both midweek...like a Tuesday and a Wednesday. Anyways, when it got around to Friday, my day off, I called both dealers and oddly enough, both of them had sold that week. Now I gave thought to getting a 2000-03 STS too, but I wasn't totally sold on the looks like I was for the ETC, so then came the car I eventually bought.

I dunno, maybe if someday I found a real, real nice, low mile 01-02 ETC in either Crimson, White or Black, I'd snag it, but I'd have to be able to buy an extended warranty on it, and it would have to cover gaskets.

It's ironic though, the main thing that scared me from the Northstar was the headgasket issue....and what's the Mercedes at the dealer for right now? Headgaskets that leak oil.

Lord Cadillac
12-09-07, 12:41 PM
Oh, God. Do I have to go through this entire thread looking for who threw the first insults now? Jeeez. I guess I'll leave it up on my screen to look at later.

Brizzal
12-09-07, 02:27 PM
ive had many people explain to me why i should get the 4.9 instead of the n* due to headgasket issues. Yes, it doesn't happen to every n* but a larger than normal percent do. my 4.9 does just fine. This is my last post in this thread im tired of arguing about an engine....

AMGoff
12-09-07, 03:00 PM
GM was on the cutting edge when they introduced the Northstar... in '92. However, because of such they've basically hit a wall with it some 15 years later. Basically, their only "breakthrough" with it since it's introduction has been VVT and that was only good for what, 20HP? Boring out the displacement isn't the answer, the engine just couldn't handle it... they already had to decrease the bore when they slapped a supercharger on it to handle all the extra power. If they wanted to try and milk the Northstar to ensure another 5-10 years of service the only thing they could possibly do with it is to offer a naturally-aspirated 4.4L with VVT and direct-injection - only then could they possibly hope to squeeze out 360-380HP.

But really, with the 3.6 already churning out 300HP, GM really needs to pull a rabbit out with a new V8 for Cadillac if they're really serious about taking back their Standard of the World title.

My_favorite_Brougham
12-09-07, 03:26 PM
Back to the original concern; you shouldn't do anything, really. The guy has shown you no proof that the engine actually has a problem. He could be making it up, hoping you'll get scared and pay out fast. Also you shouldn't do anything w/o proof anyway. Besides, you don't have to do anything legally, so put it behind you and keep your money. You'll be fine; I promise ;)

LS1Mike
12-09-07, 05:50 PM
GM was on the cutting edge when they introduced the Northstar... in '92. However, because of such they've basically hit a wall with it some 15 years later. Basically, their only "breakthrough" with it since it's introduction has been VVT and that was only good for what, 20HP? Boring out the displacement isn't the answer, the engine just couldn't handle it... they already had to decrease the bore when they slapped a supercharger on it to handle all the extra power. If they wanted to try and milk the Northstar to ensure another 5-10 years of service the only thing they could possibly do with it is to offer a naturally-aspirated 4.4L with VVT and direct-injection - only then could they possibly hope to squeeze out 360-380HP.

But really, with the 3.6 already churning out 300HP, GM really needs to pull a rabbit out with a new V8 for Cadillac if they're really serious about taking back their Standard of the World title.

LS2, LS3, LS7, LS9.
That is what Cadillac should be using.

CadillacSTS42005
12-09-07, 05:54 PM
never happen
lacs are still old people oriented
an LS is too loud and pushy
hence why its a V series engine not a production line engine

Lord Cadillac
12-09-07, 06:33 PM
I may be an oddball but I purchased an LT1 car over a Northstar and it wasn't because I couldn't afford what I really wanted. When I first started this site, I owned a 1987 Corvette that I had just purchased after selling a 1995 ETC. The ETC was under warranty and in its time underwent a lot of very expensive repairs. After the Vette turned out to be a ridiculous POS money pit, I was back in the market for a Cadillac again. This time - a 1998 or newer Seville STS.

Katshot, HotRodSaint and others had me convinced to replace my Vette with a 1995 Fleetwood Brougham. One of the reasons was for the excellent reliability and non-complex engine - the LT1. I started this site because I wanted a great place to go when I had problems with the STS - and of course, I thought other people would appreciate such a place as well. Here we are...

That being said, the members of this site changed my mind and I owned the FWB for a year before replacing it with a 2000 DeVille DTS. I love the Northstar engine's power and smoothness - but it's a complex engine that can become expensive to repair without a warranty. So I actually did choose the LT1 over the Northstar because I felt it was going to give me a less problematic experience...

CTSV_Rob
12-09-07, 06:50 PM
One of the reasons I bought the CTS-V was because of the LS2. This is a great motor, Makes power, is reliable, Many after market parts.......

N* is a great motor but the advantages of the LS platform out weigh the former.

LS1Mike
12-09-07, 08:27 PM
I may be an oddball but I purchased an LT1 car over a Northstar and it wasn't because I couldn't afford what I really wanted. When I first started this site, I owned a 1987 Corvette that I had just purchased after selling a 1995 ETC. The ETC was under warranty and in its time underwent a lot of very expensive repairs. After the Vette turned out to be a ridiculous POS money pit, I was back in the market for a Cadillac again. This time - a 1998 or newer Seville STS.

Katshot, HotRodSaint and others had me convinced to replace my Vette with a 1995 Fleetwood Brougham. One of the reasons was for the excellent reliability and non-complex engine - the LT1. I started this site because I wanted a great place to go when I had problems with the STS - and of course, I thought other people would appreciate such a place as well. Here we are...

That being said, the members of this site changed my mind and I owned the FWB for a year before replacing it with a 2000 DeVille DTS. I love the Northstar engine's power and smoothness - but it's a complex engine that can become expensive to repair without a warranty. So I actually did choose the LT1 over the Northstar because I felt it was going to give me a less problematic experience...


Lord, please forgive me but your Corvette has a L98, or in other words a TPI motor, the LT1 wasn't available until 1992.
In other words you got an old school style small block with a TPI.
Get with the GM SBC program...:duck: :D

LS1Mike
12-09-07, 08:39 PM
never happen
lacs are still old people oriented
an LS is too loud and pushy
hence why its a V series engine not a production line engine

Dude what planet are you on. The LSX is quiet and has been used in FWD cars, Trucks, GTOs, Corvette, F-Bodies. All the Cadillac Trucks
It is by far a much friendly motor than any N* I have driven.
It is GMs bread and butter engine right now along with the 3.6.
My guess is your really have not DRIVEN anything with one for a period of time backed up to a 4 speed or 6 speed.

Lord Cadillac
12-09-07, 09:03 PM
Lord, please forgive me but your Corvette has a L98, or in other words a TPI motor, the LT1 wasn't available until 1992.
In other words you got an old school style small block with a TPI.
Get with the GM SBC program...:duck: :D
I didn't say the Corvette had an LT1. I knew it had an L98. The LT1 was in the Fleetwood Brougham.. I didn't necessarily need to mention the Corvette. It was just kinda part of my car-swapping story. :p

CadillacSTS42005
12-09-07, 09:05 PM
Dude what planet are you on. The LSX is quiet and has been used in FWD cars, Trucks, GTOs, Corvette, F-Bodies. All the Cadillac Trucks
It is by far a much friendly motor than any N* I have driven.
It is GMs bread and butter engine right now along with the 3.6.
My guess is your really have not DRIVEN anything with one for a period of time backed up to a 4 speed or 6 speed.


sorry i wasnt clear
i ment by that i cant IMAGINE EVER them installing a LS7 engine on a base STS to replace a N*, the older customer base that they target wouldnt need it.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-09-07, 09:09 PM
The LSX is quiet and has been used in FWD cars, Trucks, GTOs, Corvette, F-Bodies. All the Cadillac Trucks

Hell yeah! I'd love to see Cadillac car with the SBC again, but I don't think the 5.3, when wedged in sideways, is any easier to work on than the Northstar, atleast not in the MC's and Impalas. And isn't the 5.3 in the new Impala SS quicker than any FWD STS?

CadillacSTS42005
12-09-07, 09:29 PM
yup
303 HP
i can take'm in my ETC
no way in a stock N* though

LS1Mike
12-09-07, 10:07 PM
Hell yeah! I'd love to see Cadillac car with the SBC again, but I don't think the 5.3, when wedged in sideways, is any easier to work on than the Northstar, atleast not in the MC's and Impalas. And isn't the 5.3 in the new Impala SS quicker than any FWD STS?

I think a 5.3 is Physically smaller than an N* width wise. In the GXP it is pretty easy to get to the stuff on the back side.

LS1Mike
12-09-07, 10:07 PM
I didn't say the Corvette had an LT1. I knew it had an L98. The LT1 was in the Fleetwood Brougham.. I didn't necessarily need to mention the Corvette. It was just kinda part of my car-swapping story. :p

Ok I misunderstood, I will go back in my hole now, for like 5 mins.:thumbsup::yup:

Playdrv4me
12-09-07, 10:41 PM
Hell yeah! I'd love to see Cadillac car with the SBC again, but I don't think the 5.3, when wedged in sideways, is any easier to work on than the Northstar, atleast not in the MC's and Impalas. And isn't the 5.3 in the new Impala SS quicker than any FWD STS?

You're probably right, but remember the 5.3 doesn't suffer from the same inherent weaknesses that would cause you to have to tear it apart in the first place, so unless you wanted to do some performance oriented top-end work, there's no reason to worry about accessibility anyway.

Destroyer
12-09-07, 10:43 PM
sorry i wasnt clear
i ment by that i cant IMAGINE EVER them installing a LS7 engine on a base STS to replace a N*, the older customer base that they target wouldnt need it.
Yeah, people want head gasket munching Northstar motors damnit!. People who want HG poppers would never go for an LSX. Kinda like the diehards with the old oil dripping Triumphs you know?. Blowing head gaskets adds character to a car. :histeric:

CadillacSTS42005
12-09-07, 10:45 PM
right thats what i ment by that 100%
not

LS1Mike
12-09-07, 10:58 PM
shit old folks don't need a N*

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-10-07, 12:46 AM
I think a 5.3 is Physically smaller than an N* width wise. In the GXP it is pretty easy to get to the stuff on the back side.


Yeah, it's not as tall of a motor, but still a big V-8 crammed sideways in a front wheel drive car, even a full size, can make for some tough parts.

I've driven an '06 GXP and wow...what a fun car to drive...the low and mid range is most excellent, and it'll get rubber from a 30 mph roll...because it was a customer's car, I didn't have the chance to take it out on the highway and open it up to see how it stands to a good L37 from a 70mph roll.

Playdrv4me
12-10-07, 02:40 PM
havent read the whole thread so not sure if this has been said, but make sure you have him sign a document that the $1000 releases you from any further liability...pay an attorney to do the document, should cost you around $100. if you need some names PM me

Yep, I thought about this and I informed him I would be doing so no matter what.

AMGoff
12-10-07, 03:07 PM
Yep, I thought about this and I informed him I would be doing so no matter what.

Does this mean you're giving in?

Playdrv4me
12-10-07, 03:12 PM
Does this mean you're giving in?

I'm still thinking about how I'm going to handle it, one of the complications I didn't mention is this occurred on my brothers Ebay account, so I have to weigh the potential negative impact on his account if I don't own up to my word to this guy.

AMGoff
12-10-07, 06:05 PM
I'm still thinking about how I'm going to handle it, one of the complications I didn't mention is this occurred on my brothers Ebay account, so I have to weigh the potential negative impact on his account if I don't own up to my word to this guy.

While I've never sold something as large as a car on ebay... I have sold a few computers on ebay, all of them of course, clearly labeled "as-is." I remember one time a friend asked me to sell their non-functional iBook on eBay. I said flat out that it wasn't working and that my best guess was that it may be a faulty display/display cable, although I hadn't done any sort of indepth testing.

This one guy decided to bid and won the auction... and guess what? I was wrong... it tuned out to be a faulty motherboard - which is a pricey repair... he was livid... accused me of knowing it was an MB issue and demanded either his money back or that I paid for the repair. I kindly told him that I was completely honest in the description and that he knowingly bought an "as-is" item with no guarantee on anything, that I was sorry, but that there was nothing I could do about it, and that this would be the last time he hears from me.

After I ignored his next three emails, I was contacted by eBay saying that this guy had filed a fraud complaint against me. I immediately asked if they read the listing and saw that the item was clearly listed as an as-is item. They said yes and I kindly told them that it was an open and shut case and I was disappointed that they would even bother me for it. I never heard anything else about it.

Your car was clearly sold as an as-is vehicle, you conducted the deal in good faith, were completely up front with him, and more than accommodated him in order to make the deal. He was under no obligation to buy this car and could (and possibly should) have walked away from it after it had to go into a shop. Beyond that, he bought a freaking as-is car from a private seller off of eBay for Christ's sake... any time you buy anything off of eBay it's a gamble, and this guy had more than one chance to walk away from it, as I'm sure you would not have pursued anything if he walked away after it broke down. This guy is either retarded or fully planned to raise issue with you were anything to go wrong with the car... which is plain wrong, you just don't do that when you buy a vehicle with no guarantee. When you pull a seat up to that table, you can't balk if you're dealt a shittty hand.

Just because you may have initially offered some sort of reparations, doesn't mean you're under any obligation to do so. It's your absolute prerogative to recant your offer as you didn't sign any legal document which would deem it compulsory... and ebay knows this. All you need to tell them is you changed your mind due to the other individuals behavior, that you're insulted both by his accusations and by his indigence from your offers of good-will. That you were completely upfront with this person, that you have documentation to back up your claim, that he was under no obligation to go through with the sale, that he had his chance to walk away from the deal, and that you're sorry, but you're in no position to make any sort of deal. And that furthermore, if they continue to harass you, you will be forced to take legal action against eBay for not holding up their policies with regard to clearly defined "as-is" auctions.

After all of that I highly doubt eBay will pursue anything further. Under the slightest chance that they do pursue anything, the worst-case scenario is that they can suspend your brother's account... if that were to happen then you just sign up for one and let him use it... but again, I'd put money on them not doing a thing, as they know that they, nor the other person doesn't haven't a leg to stand on.

I know you have other things on your plate right now... but this is a cut and dry situation - you may be worrying about it more than the whole thing warrants. Bottom line - if you knowingly did something wrong then pay up, otherwise put the whole thing behind you.

Cadillacboy
12-10-07, 06:19 PM
LT1's power and accleration nothing to be sneezed at all ;) . Yep, Northstar seems to have more muscle car sounds but LT1 is great too .

HITMONEY
12-10-07, 06:58 PM
N* one of the "easiest engines to work on"..... you have to be on glue to make that statement after you pop the hood on my DTS and take a gander.

I was a certified Porsche, Peugeot, and VW tech in the early 90's... I know a cluster fluck when I see one. The N* in my DTS engine bay fits that description.

Even a simple spark plug replacement becomes an act of treason on your flesh when it comes to the rear bank. There is a blind screw on a bracket that must be removed that will drive you absolutey to the brink of a murderous rampage. Every plastic clip will crumble at the slightest touch due to heat fatigue as well.

Head gasket, yeah you can DIY if you can winch your car up through the attic.

The N* was never, ever, designed to be a DIY friendly power plant.

The N* was state of the art 15 years ago... by now it is dated technology. To bad it took them almost 10 years to get the "kinks" worked out. just in time to be obsolete.


PS- Don't get me wrong, I am not bashing the engine that resides in my car at all, not for 1 second.. But it is not a powerplant that I plan on rolling my Snap-On box up too again anytime too soon.

danbuc
12-10-07, 07:42 PM
This is why I'd rather drive my car into the ground, than risk selling it to someone. It has so many issues, it simply wouldn't be fair to them. I wouldn't give that guy a dime, but that's because I haven't got a thousand dollar to give away, not even half that.

Spyder
12-10-07, 08:30 PM
Hitmoney...you're crazy if you think plugs on a Northstar are difficult! Easiest damned things I ever changed on a vehicle were the plugs and wires and the starer on a Northstar. With the exception of the HG repair, everything I ever did to mine was VERY easy in comparison to some of the crap I've done to numerous other vehicles.


PlayDrv...don't give the guy a dime. As is = as is. No questions asked. If he was that concerned about it he should have spent more time inspecting it. Not your fault that anything went wrong. There's no argument whatsoever to the contrary. AMGoff is right. F the guy.

Destroyer
12-10-07, 08:37 PM
AMGoff is right. F the guy.Twice?:histeric:

Spyder
12-10-07, 08:47 PM
It's always good in the morning, yo.

AJxtcman
12-10-07, 09:20 PM
This thread is a JOKE. It is a bigger mess than mine!

OMFG!

I hope that Caddy finally goes away using CHEVY engines!

I have read a few articles that say the new CTS-V will be a 3.6L S/C

OK GM want Caddy to be step levels like BMW.
3 series, 5 series, 6 series, and the 7 series.

CTS, STS, DTS?/XTS?, XLR. Yes they will all have V series
V6----V8---V12-------V12?

BTW Honda's have head gasket problems!
I have seen more LS family head gasket failures recently than Northstars. You better be careful if you have an Escalade or a CTS-V.

I had a conversation with an older sale man today about the going away of FWD. He said that will be the death of Cadillac. I bet he said the same thing when the got rid of the suburban with a car body aka Fleet-wood.

Anybody judging Cadillac on some old oxidised POS aluminum block needs to drive an 08. I don't care if it is the CTS, STS, DTS, Escalade, or an XLR just drive one. An 08 DTS vs a 95 STS come on now.:histeric:

96Fleetwood
12-10-07, 09:27 PM
Man, sorry to hear about this. This is the exact reason why I haven't bought/sold a Northstar powered vehicle in the last year.

Be careful with eBay, they do have a auction insurance service that can get the buyer the money back if the repairs cost more than 50% of the KBB value of the car. They will then take the money from your credit card linked to eBay and then cancel your eBay account.

AJxtcman
12-10-07, 09:29 PM
It's always good in the morning, yo.

Glad to see your still alive.

Your avatar reminds me of a guy that I met a few years back. He moved back to Texas or Cali awhile back. He decided that life was not for him. :mad: Anyway he didn't show up for work so his boss called the cops. Yeah they knew. My girl friend called me at work last week and told me:nono: This was the first time I had a chance to check and see if you were still around

Playdrv4me
12-10-07, 09:32 PM
This thread is a JOKE. It is a bigger mess than mine!

OMFG!

I hope that Caddy finally goes away using CHEVY engines!

I have read a few articles that say the new CTS-V will be a 3.6L S/C

OK GM want Caddy to be step levels like BMW.
3 series, 5 series, 6 series, and the 7 series.

CTS, STS, DTS?/XTS?, XLR. Yes they will all have V series
V6----V8---V12-------V12?

BTW Honda's have head gasket problems!
I have seen more LS family head gasket failures recently than Northstars. You better be careful if you have an Escalade or a CTS-V.

I had a conversation with an older sale man today about the going away of FWD. He said that will be the death of Cadillac. I bet he said the same thing when the got rid of the suburban with a car body aka Fleet-wood.

Anybody judging Cadillac on some old oxidised POS aluminum block needs to drive an 08. I don't care if it is the CTS, STS, DTS, Escalade, or an XLR just drive one. An 08 DTS vs a 95 STS come on now.:histeric:

Couple of things...

"Some old oxidized POS..." Are you inferring that just because someone has an older Northstar, they shouldnt expect it to be every bit as reliable as a newer one, or that a Northstars age is an indicator of its mechanical shape??! I know several LT1 Fleetwood owners here that would disagree with you that just because their cars are "old" they aren't every bit as good as a brand new DTS.

Second, I started a 2006 DTS the other day, pristine car, gorgeous inside and out... sounded like shit for the first 30 seconds until it warmed up. Squeak squeak squeak tap tap... etc etc. In fact, it sounded just like any older Northstar I've ever started after it's been sitting around for a while. That isn't the only newer Northstar Ive heard make those exact same noises.

Once it warmed up it ran beautifully, but I don't have any other car in my stable that sounds anything like my Northstars do when I first start them up.

Does that mean it's a "shitty POS"... No, but I certainly wouldnt place it above any LS or LT based motor, or even the 3.6.

It seems like everytime there is a Northstar thread, people migrate to the extremes. Either that it's a total shitpile, or that it's the GOD of engines when neither is true. It is/was one of the finest domestic powerplants ever produced, but laden with some inherent engineering weaknesses that keep it from reaching true upper eschelon status, and keep its less impressive, but more reliable stablemates on par with it, if not ahead.

1990CaddyBrougham
12-10-07, 10:20 PM
Im sorry to hear about this mess... Ive been in similar situations. AS IS is hard to stand by when your just a nice guy. Im the same way. Good luck on the outcome.

So far i have no real complaints on my 00 NorthStar... I was never to fond.... I always drove a big RWS brougham or town car. This is my first one. I have my 90 Brougham in my garage for, "back up"

My cousin had a 99 ETC, that she traded in when it started having coolant issues. Day the dealer was loading it on the car hauler to take to auction, head gasket blew. Dealer actually wanted to take $ off the trade in amount they already gave her.

I have my fingers crossed...

Ranger
12-10-07, 10:53 PM
havent read the whole thread so not sure if this has been said, but make sure you have him sign a document that the $1000 releases you from any further liability...pay an attorney to do the document, should cost you around $100. if you need some names PM me
There is NO liability to begin with.

96Fleetwood
12-10-07, 10:58 PM
I dunno, if he sold the car through eBay... they have so much red tape to get through that could make him liable.

Spyder
12-10-07, 11:06 PM
Glad to see your still alive.

Your avatar reminds me of a guy that I met a few years back. He moved back to Texas or Cali awhile back. He decided that life was not for him. :mad: Anyway he didn't show up for work so his boss called the cops. Yeah they knew. My girl friend called me at work last week and told me:nono: This was the first time I had a chance to check and see if you were still around

What the f'ing hell?!?

Playdrv4me
12-10-07, 11:38 PM
What the f'ing hell?!?

LMFAO I was thinking the exact same thing but I thought maybe I missed something!

ted tcb
12-11-07, 12:09 AM
What the f'ing hell?!?

I just figured that Spyder has a history of depressing, suicidal thoughts
in his previous posts, and that I'd never picked up on it.

Playdrv4me
12-11-07, 12:11 AM
I think AJ is just :drink2: tonight!

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-11-07, 12:14 AM
I just figured that Spyder has a history of depressing, suicidal thoughts
in his previous posts, and that I'd never picked up on it.

No noooo not at all.

stskenny
12-11-07, 02:59 AM
I'm sorry...
but if you give this a**hole another penny, not to mention a grand!!!! you are an idiot!! I'm not trying to be mean, but you REALLY need someone to be brutally honest with you, for your own sake. The person you have been dealing with pegged you as a sucker from the moment you agreed to drive the car to meet him. NEVER do that! Just describe the vehicle to the best of your knowledge when you are selling it, and then let the buyer decide if he or she wants it. Then, if you are not a dealer, but a private seller then, in every state that I know about, it is AUTOMATICALLY an AS-IS SALE! You don't have to represent it as such. The only two mistakes people make... and you made both of them, is...

#1) to cloud the issue of when (and where) the buyer took possession of the vehicle... because you are responsible for it until they take possession of it, and by driving it 100 miles away you may cross legal jurisdictions.

#2) people sometimes override the automatic AS-IS nature of the contract by issuing guarantees. For example, NEVER say, I just had the such and such repaired, so you are not going to have problems with that.... or I had it repaired by a dealer, and they gave me a warrantee, so I can guarantee that you won't have problems with that. Instead, it's good Sameritan enough just to list any trouble you know of, list repairs you made and when they were made, and you can give them COPIES (while you retain the originals) of any convenient recipts you may have. Then let them decide if they want it. If you want to be even more saintly, let them test drive it, or better yet, allow them the opportunity to have it inspected at their own expense by an independent mechanic. If they choose to buy it, make sure they give you cash or secure funds, both of you sign a bill of sale (which I prefer to be hand written, because I feel they are more intrinsically authentic... but an OfficeMax or Office Depot generic car sale contract is a good $10 choice too, as it gives you the legal benefits of a lawyer drafted contract... without supporting blood sucking low-lifes!) . Then, if the car is on your property, let them know how much time they have to remove it. If it is on a public street, notify the authorities that you no longer own it, and don't worry about it. But after they sign the bill of sale and drive away, if it breaks down in the street in front of your house, then apologetically show your sympathy as you tell them how shocked you are that THEIR car would do that, and suggest a shop they can have THEIR car towed to, because if they leave THEIR car in the middle of your street, THEY might get a ticket and the police may tow THEIR car.

#3) I know I only mentioned 2 mistakes... but there is a third, and I bet you a dollar you made that one too. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER EVER let a stranger drive off with your license plates!!!!! As soon as you complete the sale, TAKE YOUR PLATES OFF THE CAR!!! If you don't, and they drive away and run over someone, you are not liable... but you'll have to prove it. Possibly over and over again! To the police... to their insurance... to your insurance... to the victem and their insurance and lawyers. You get the picture? 97.5% of doctors surveyed agree that most rectal pains are either caused by hemhoroids... or by people being WAY too nice to other 'holes'. And if they give or sell your plates to criminals so the can steal cars and rob banks... you'll have to prove that you were'nt part of the plan. So, no matter how much someone might beg you to do so, NEVER let someone use your plates. Now days I wouldn't let my own children do it. In my state it's called "Misuse of Liscense Plates"... It's against the law, and I know because I had to pay for a $60 ticket several years ago! Besides, it isn't necessary. The buyer can get temporary plates easily and inexpensively from your local Motor Vehicle department. It's usually less than $10! But if you drive the car to them, it makes it harder to do it cleanly and properly. Just say NO!!!!!

You are a nice person, and that's really sweet... but problematic when taken to your extremes. If you think following these precautions make you into a 'meanie'... You are wrong. Doing these things will just make you a prudent and responsible person.

So, whay should you do now???? I hope to god you haven't given this predator any more money! Even if you told him you will... DON'T!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You sold the car. You spent money you shouldn't have spent and therefore have suffered a loss. You may have to eat that loss and chalk it up to experience. But if this guy bugs you again, tell him to "Go piss up a rope!", and not to bother you any more. Say it as mean as you can, so that if you are lucky, he'll try to sue you. Then if he does, that will be your best chance of trying to recoup some of your losses by filing a counter suit in your answer. Don't worry. You'll win... even without a lawyer. But if you try to sue him first, it will be tougher, you'll have to get him to come back to the jurisdiction that the sale took place (near you), and if the judge decides not to make him pay you anything back, then you may have to pay for his court costs and attorney fees. BUT... If you can get him to be stupid enough to try to sue you, first of all, he'll have to voluntarilly come to your jurisdiction, the burden of proof will be on him, he won't have an attorney... 'cause he won't find one that will initiate the case, and the judge will clearly see that this jerk was clearly intent on extorting you all along, and be so pissed that his behavior is wasting the court's time, and will probably be more inclined to grant your counter claim. And who knows? You may deter him from doing this to someone else.

But as for you...
It's my opinion and observation that you tend to delusionally displace blame and possibly anger. You've blamed the car for the actions of a con artist (who's most likely a liar too!). You have blamed yourself for an old (obviously abused) car breaking down. You blame yourself for events that occurred after a legal AS-IS sale. But you don't blame this guy for being crooked and preditary, nor do I hear you blaming your well intended, but bad choices for making your problem into a nightmare!... And I as compassionately as I can, hope you get that professionally looked into.

BUT... when you or anyone else tries to diss' the N*... I have to take exception and say... NO YOU DID'UNT!!!

Seriously, I know that you had a bad Cadillac experience, and you are not the only one who has... but without a doubt.... somebody, perhaps not you, abused that car! Some Cadillacs are not as good as others. Some engines are better than others, but the Northstar engine is one of the greatest internal combustion engines ever designed for an automobile. Anyone who have issues with it, just plain and simple, misunderstands what it is and shouldn't have had one. It's clearly not for everyone. Not everyone should have a Ferrarri either. The N* is a high performance engine, and if it isn't treated like one, it's not going to like it. If someone is unaware of the difference between a N* Caddi and the kind of Cadillac that the lil' ole lady gets just to drive to church on sunday... Well, they're not going to know WOT (pun intended) to do with it and they are going to break it. The irony is that in addition to it being essentially a 'race engine', it incorporates cool technology to make it tolerant, resillient, smart, fuel efficient, and hard to kill. It's main 'kryptonite' is being babied too much. Can any one tell me of another water cooled engine, of any performance grade, that is engineered such that if it looses it's coolant, it can still get you safely home (both for you and itself)? It does so by automatically shutting down some cylinders and using them as 'air coolers' so you can limp home instead of being on the side of the road with a cell phone. Any other engine would have you waiting for a tow. Now after you get it home, if you are stupid enough to keep trying to drive it that way... then it's wise enough to consider giving up the ghost to prevent such an undeserving person from having one... just to keep the universe in better ballance, you know.

What's that?
No, I don't really like mine.
I admire mine!
It's a 1993 Seville STS that I bought used. It had 90,000 miles on it when I got it, and I've put another 80,000 miles one her so far, and she loves it. It's like it's saying' "Is that all you got?". I hope to put another 120,000 on her before I'm done. All I have to do is treat her the way she wants to be treated. She likes it hard sometimes, but she also shows me she appreciates it when I treat her like a lady... A beautiful, but powerful (Zena like) lady. Not nearly as high maintenance as I would expect a 15 year old to be! (That's ~240 in car years!) But she still turns heads... and I dread the day that I'll have to drive something else.

96Fleetwood
12-11-07, 07:54 AM
To call that guy a predator is just wrong. How would you feel if you bought a $5K car and had to put $3.5K into it as soon as you bought it? Sure Ian lost money on the deal.. but that happens, you can't win all the time. The guy did buy a used car as-is, so Ian doesn't have to give him a dime, but I do feel sorry for the guy who now has to spend more than half of what he paid on the car to get it running, I feel even more sorry for Ian who now has to deal with this mess on his brother's eBay account..... all those threads about the temp needle, the overheating, etc.. better get deleted or that buyer will find them and use them against him.

Playdrv4me
12-11-07, 10:04 AM
To call that guy a predator is just wrong. How would you feel if you bought a $5K car and had to put $3.5K into it as soon as you bought it? Sure Ian lost money on the deal.. but that happens, you can't win all the time. The guy did buy a used car as-is, so Ian doesn't have to give him a dime, but I do feel sorry for the guy who now has to spend more than half of what he paid on the car to get it running, I feel even more sorry for Ian who now has to deal with this mess on his brother's eBay account..... all those threads about the temp needle, the overheating, etc.. better get deleted or that buyer will find them and use them against him.

Well you know I thought about that, but I left them there because I have nothing to hide. It only goes to prove that it was my own Northstar paranoia because every response I got pretty much stated the temp range was fine and for me to shut up. Plus, the car hasnt ever overheated, it (apparently) just used alot of coolant, which it never did to me here in town or when I drove it back from Ft. Myers. I was completely honest in my belief nothing was wrong with the car. If anything it will confirm that I was precautionary before I sold it and I never got a diagnosis of any problem from any mechanical authority. And I agree with you 100 percent, regardless of the principle, you just feel like shit knowing something you sold someone in good faith is about to cost them half what they paid to fix it.

Also to the poster above, I dont understand why I have to constantly dispell this myth that a Northstar HG failing means the car was abused. Its pretty simple to look at any other car in equal shape with similar mileage and not see a damn thing wrong with it, so why does the Northstar get a pass just because it didnt have the utmost care (really read constant coolant changes to account for an inherent weakness). Im sorry but I just dont buy that. This car only had 65k on it.

Jesda
12-11-07, 10:35 AM
My biggest problem is that the guy was a dick to Ian. He didn't ask nicely or explain his situation, he just came out making threats like he had some kind of authority. He doesn't realize at all that even an offer of ten bucks is doing him a HUGE favor.

Yes, offering a $1000 discount is doing the right thing. No, this guy does not deserve to have the right thing done to him. Pricks should get bent.

Destroyer
12-11-07, 11:06 AM
but without a doubt.... somebody, perhaps not you, abused that car!

..................... It's main 'kryptonite' is being babied too much. So which is it?. You think someone abused too much or babied it too much?:suspense:

Cadillacboy
12-11-07, 11:14 AM
I'm afraid babying can be a way of abusing as well
:doh: :suspense:

Jesda
12-11-07, 11:15 AM
Starting the engine is how you abuse a Northstar.

Cadillacboy
12-11-07, 11:19 AM
:rofl:

Spyder
12-11-07, 12:07 PM
I'm still stuck on the thought of a bent prick. I don't think that would be very enjoyable...

stskenny
12-11-07, 01:49 PM
He's a predator, predator predator.
He takes unfair advantage of other human beings.
He showed no effort to see things from anyone's perspective than his own,
and I have NO sympathy for anyone who treats other people badly.

How would I feel if I spent $5k and then had to spend anther $5k?
I'd feel stupid.
I'd feel like I made a mistake.
I'd feel like I should have done more homework.
I'd feel like I should have had a mechanic look at it.
I'd feel like luck just kicked me in the ass... which it does to all of us from time to time.
I'd feel like maybe I should have gone to a dealer.
I'd feel like I should have considered that cars don't last forever, and one that's still running after 10 years may break down soon.
I'd feel like I should have bought a car with a warrantee.
I'd feel like nicely asking the seller to be merciful...

BUT I'd NEVER feel like demanding that someone else take responsibility for my mistakes,
nor would I ever feel like being a prick... bent or otherwise.
Being unlucky enough to get one stuck in my six, doesn't mean I have to stick mine into someone elses.

We, as a society, really need to stop enabling people's irresponsible behavior, and UNIFORMLY abide by the laws we set.

ted tcb
12-11-07, 02:02 PM
My biggest problem is that the guy was a dick to Ian. He didn't ask nicely or explain his situation, he just came out making threats like he had some kind of authority. He doesn't realize at all that even an offer of ten bucks is doing him a HUGE favor.

Yes, offering a $1000 discount is doing the right thing. No, this guy does not deserve to have the right thing done to him. Pricks should get bent.

I feel the exact same ... an act of kindness and compassion shouldn't be judged so harshly by others. It was a decent thing to do in an apathetic world.
Having said that, the purchaser of this car doesn't appreciate the gesture, so
I would retract the gift. That's all the offer was, a gift and nothing more.

Destroyer
12-11-07, 02:47 PM
I feel the exact same ... an act of kindness and compassion shouldn't be judged so harshly by others. It was a decent thing to do in an apathetic world.
Having said that, the purchaser of this car doesn't appreciate the gesture, so
I would retract the gift. That's all the offer was, a gift and nothing more.
The purchaser is just plain pissed!. When we are angry we act like that. From his perspective he was sold a car with problems and he thinks the seller was well aware of said problems even if thats not the case. Cant say I wouldn't react in a similar way under those circumstances and that line of thinking. I would ask for proof that there is indeed damage and give the guy back a little towards repairs no matter how he reacted or overreacted but thats me. $1k isn't a lot of money and definately isn't enough to worry over and feel bad about IMO.

96Fleetwood
12-11-07, 03:31 PM
He's a predator, predator predator.
He takes unfair advantage of other human beings.
He showed no effort to see things from anyone's perspective than his own,
and I have NO sympathy for anyone who treats other people badly.

How would I feel if I spent $5k and then had to spend anther $5k?
I'd feel stupid.
I'd feel like I made a mistake.
I'd feel like I should have done more homework.
I'd feel like I should have had a mechanic look at it.
I'd feel like luck just kicked me in the ass... which it does to all of us from time to time.
I'd feel like maybe I should have gone to a dealer.
I'd feel like I should have considered that cars don't last forever, and one that's still running after 10 years may break down soon.
I'd feel like I should have bought a car with a warrantee.
I'd feel like nicely asking the seller to be merciful...

BUT I'd NEVER feel like demanding that someone else take responsibility for my mistakes,
nor would I ever feel like being a prick... bent or otherwise.
Being unlucky enough to get one stuck in my six, doesn't mean I have to stick mine into someone elses.

We, as a society, really need to stop enabling people's irresponsible behavior, and UNIFORMLY abide by the laws we set.

That is just plan ludacris.. but to each their own. Do you even know the definition of predator?

The guy drove 500 miles before the car started overheating.. I would be pissed too!! He has every right to be and whether or not he was nice to Ian has nothing to do with it. They are not friends, business is business and to this guy the business went sour and he has every right to demand anything he wants however he wants. It is up to Ian whether or not he will give in to the demands.. ;)

So call the guy a predator (one that preys, destroys, or devours)... I will call him an angry consumer.

AMGoff
12-11-07, 03:36 PM
To say this guys is a "predator" is a bit harsh... but it goes to the extreme of what I had said previously. Despite knowing that the car he bought was "as-is," I fully believe he would have tried to demand/guilt/extort/con money out of Ian for any repairs that had to be made to the car... and that is wrong.

If I bought a car and then ended up having to dump half of what I paid into it to get it running of course I would be mad... I'd be mad at the car, I'd be mad at myself, but I would never go back to the seller and demand money for the repairs. The bottom line is if you buy a car wanting some sort of guarantee then you better buy it from a dealer. There are NO guarantees when you buy from a private party... it's not like that is some sort of secret. Like I said, this guy is either retarded or he planned all along to get some of his money back if something were to go wrong with the car - and I repeat, that is wrong.

The ONLY mistake that I can see was made is this - all of Ian's actions amounted to making it seem like this guy was doing him a favor by buying the car. In reality, it was all out of good-will, but to this guy it made him seem like he had/has the upper-hand... and now he is using it to his advantage. So actually... in hindsight, some of his actions do seem predatory in nature... although that is still a bit extreme. Really, some people just like to take advantage of situations when it can be done in their favor - it's human nature. This guy is pissed and he wrongfully thinks that Ian did it all willingly - which says right there that this guy has an inherent cynical view of the world and of his fellow man, which by extension means he probably feels this is a "dog-eat-dog" world, so he has no problem trying to cause hell in order to satisfy himself. He's refusing to admit that he, himself made the mistake of buying the car so he's projecting his misplaced anger to the only logical (to him) place - the seller.

At this point in the game, you honestly need to assert yourself in this situation. Let him know flat out that he doesn't have the upper-hand. Let him know that while you were sorry, that you're not going to give him a dime now... AND make it very clear to him that it was his behavior which has resulted in him getting nothing. Tell him you are done talking to him and that if he insists on continuing contact that he may do so through your lawyer and that you hope he doesn't because you would hate to see him lose any more money.

I know that you feel bad Ian... I really do, I would also... It's natural... It's okay to feel bad in a situation like this, however... you really, really need to stop thinking that you somehow owe this guy anything. I think right there is the main source of your angst... you're equating feeling bad with having to make reparations. If you can honestly tell me that if the situation were reversed and that you would demand money for repairs from the seller, then give him the money... but I don't believe that's the case for one second. Do unto others... you don't owe him anything and you know it... it's okay to feel bad, but giving in isn't the answer.

If anything... if you stand up to this guy then it may very well prevent him from doing this to someone else.

stskenny
12-11-07, 06:06 PM
That's fine. I agree that we are entitled to our various opinions.
Yes, I am very familiar with the word predator, and it is precisely the one I choose to use although, I prefer the first and third of your list of synonyms over the second one. I wouldn't call him a destroyer. There are situations where one has a right to destroy, such as destroying something you own. The latin roots of the word predator are praedator which means 'pillager', and it's from the word praedari, which means 'to plunder'. The distinction is justification... or rather, lack thereof. So consistent with all of this, is our differing semantic opinions. Sure, customers and predators are both consumers. But predators are only justified in their own frame of reference. Consumers can all be angry, but an angry predator didn't get what he wanted. I personally consider an angry customer to be someone who didn't get what they barganed for and/or deserve. This guy got EXACTLY what he bargained for. He bought an AS-IS car. Semantics aside... people shouldn't have to go back to latin roots to figure out what AS-IS means! That's the part that get's to me. It doesn't mean AS-YOU-WANT-IT-TO-BE. 'AS-IS' is cheaper... 'Guaranteed' costs more. Choose one or the other and live with it, 'cause ya can't have it both ways.

But perhaps you are right. Perhaps he's a destroyer too, because (in my opinion) the people who are trying to substitute ambiguity for reality are destroying the very fabric of our society.

stskenny
12-11-07, 06:12 PM
That's fine. I agree that we are entitled to our various opinions.
Yes, I am very familiar with the word predator, and it is precisely the one I choose to use although, I prefer the first and third of your list of synonyms over the second one. I wouldn't call him a destroyer. There are situations where one has a right to destroy, such as destroying something you own. The latin roots of the word predator are praedator which means 'pillager', and it's from the word praedari, which means 'to plunder'. The distinction is justification... or rather, lack thereof. So consistent with all of this, is our differing semantic opinions. Sure, customers and predators are both consumers. But predators are only justified in their own frame of reference. Consumers can all be angry, but an angry predator didn't get what he wanted. I personally consider an angry customer to be someone who didn't get what they barganed for and/or deserve. This guy got EXACTLY what he bargained for. He bought an AS-IS car. Semantics aside... people shouldn't have to go back to latin roots to figure out what AS-IS means! That's the part that get's to me. It doesn't mean AS-YOU-WANT-IT-TO-BE. 'AS-IS' is cheaper... 'Guaranteed' costs more. Choose one or the other and live with it, 'cause ya can't have it both ways.

But perhaps you are right. Perhaps he's a destroyer too, because (in my opinion) the people who are trying to substitute ambiguity for reality are destroying the very fabric of our society.

Jesda
12-11-07, 06:13 PM
That is just plan ludacris.. but to each their own. Do you even know the definition of predator?

The guy drove 500 miles before the car started overheating.. I would be pissed too!! He has every right to be and whether or not he was nice to Ian has nothing to do with it. They are not friends, business is business and to this guy the business went sour and he has every right to demand anything he wants however he wants. It is up to Ian whether or not he will give in to the demands.. ;)

So call the guy a predator (one that preys, destroys, or devours)... I will call him an angry consumer.

If business is business, the buyer is legally obligated to go F himself. :)

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-11-07, 08:05 PM
If business is business, the buyer is legally obligated to go F himself. :)


Oh man, I wish I could tell customers that. After all, it's only business.

hueterm
12-11-07, 08:12 PM
I got the dealer that sold me my Concours off of eBay to chip in half of the A/C compressor replacement, because I hadn't yet given him his feedback, and he had 100% positive feedback and I sort of held him hostage. He was actually pretty nice about it, but I didn't want to take the chance he wouldn't be for $700.

I still say that you really shouldn't have paid anything and that he should go pound salt -- but you mentioned before that you didn't want the stress and hassle of dealing w/this, so if paying the grand helps from that aspect, then you did the right thing.

Destroyer
12-11-07, 08:19 PM
I got the dealer that sold me my Concours off of eBay to chip in half of the A/C compressor replacement, because I hadn't yet given him his feedback, and he had 100% positive feedback and I sort of held him hostage. He was actually pretty nice about it, but I didn't want to take the chance he wouldn't be for $700.

I still say that you really shouldn't have paid anything and that he should go pound salt -- but you mentioned before that you didn't want the stress and hassle of dealing w/this, so if paying the grand helps from that aspect, then you did the right thing.So the dealer shouldn't have given you $700 and let you go pound salt as well right?

hueterm
12-11-07, 08:43 PM
If I hadn't had any leverage, I'm sure he would have. But if he had, that would have been the end of it. I wouldn't have carried it any further or threatened to sue or whatever this loser is doing to Ian.

AMGoff
12-11-07, 09:15 PM
You know... we're all delving far too far into this than is necessary, and I'm just as guilty of it as everyone else.

It really doesn't matter which one all of you empathize with in this case... bottom line is this was an as-is deal.

People can cry and balk all they want, but when you buy an as-is car, it's just that, as-is. Nobody should get preferential treatment or be an exception to the rule just because they cry the loudest.

hueterm
12-11-07, 09:20 PM
It is funny how some threads totally take off and some die on the vine, like the one when Chad was looking at/bought his S320...

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-11-07, 09:34 PM
It is funny how some threads totally take off and some die on the vine, like the one when Chad was looking at/bought his S320...


Yeah, lol, that thread's length amazed even me.

It was like the Johnny Holmes of threads.

AMGoff
12-11-07, 09:41 PM
There goes Chad and his 70's porn star references again...

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-11-07, 09:45 PM
Dirk Diggler.

hueterm
12-11-07, 09:49 PM
There goes Chad and his 70's porn star references again...

Made all the more interesting, given that he was born in the late 80s :-)

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-11-07, 10:56 PM
And here's how we solve this problem.

ZHzh6eghVFo&feature=related

Playdrv4me
12-11-07, 11:12 PM
And here's how we solve this problem.

ZHzh6eghVFo&feature=related

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Alright, on that note I am going to close this thread before it gets too far out of hand as sensitive as this is.

Adam you had some great points earlier. Thanks for the insight guys, I will be thinking about exactly what Im going to do over the next couple of days.

Jesda
12-11-07, 11:28 PM
Last word!

Playdrv4me
12-11-07, 11:29 PM
Last word!

Nope.