: So the wife wants to get rid of her Liberty...



AMGoff
12-01-07, 05:02 PM
Well here we are... what's it been, like three months since the whole big to-do surrounding my wife trading in the Regal GS without telling me?

As it turns out, buying the Liberty was an "impulse decision." Really? Now here I thought that buying a vehicle because it matched the color of one's eyes was a truly thoughtful decision...

Do you know what's worse... she now says she'd like a nice, comfortable midsize sedan... Well gee-golly that sure sounds a lot like the car she traded in only a few months ago... who would have thunk that?

The only good news about this is what she thinks she would like to get... and toward the top of the list is a late-model CTS - so we very well may end up with two Cadillacs. She likes the STS as well, but they're still fairly cost-prohibitive at this point... at least the CTS' have been dropping, especially with the new '08s out now. The other two towards the top of the list that she wants to check out are the Volvo S40/60 and also some Saabs. I'd be perfectly fine with both of those other choices as she knows the only rule is - No Japanese cars.

But still... this woman drives me crazy sometimes. As I had oft-lamented in the past, I loved the GS... I wish we still had it. As much as I'm a die-hard Jeeper, I just haven't been able to really get "into" the Liberty... maybe it's just because I see too many places where it's obvious German hands have been. I still can't figure out who in their right mind felt that was a suitable replacement for the Cherokee.

On the bright side, I'll at least get to look at cars over the next few weeks...

Sandy
12-01-07, 05:23 PM
We have a 2001 Jeep Cherokee 4X4 Limited XJ. I bought in brandy new. It's also a "Final-500" Edition, being made during the final week of XJ Cherokee production. Mileage is 44,575 in the 7 years. Condition is "Showroom New" without a single door ding, nor scratch, nor abrassion. The driver's leather seat has "lines" but no cracks. All carpeting is as new. The vehicle is equipped with every available option and lots more than is offered on thr 2007/08 Liberty or Patroit, such as 6-Way Power PASSENGER seat and overhead trip computer and info center. The 1nline-6 pulls like a mad man and that AMC designed Jeep engine regularily goes for 300,000 miles with care. The stereo is Cassette and C.D. both with power Amp & Subwoffer from Alpine, from Jeep. Karen & I keep her super mint, at all times. Neighbor says that he has never seen a cleaner Jeep. It has never been "Off-Road". We use it for marketing, and for getting out of this no-man's land our house is in, from December thru April.
She has a new set of tires, Bridgeton Duallys - new Shocks, Fact Spec, MoPARs, and all reg. maintenance is done on or near scheduling. Karen says that there is no car that she'd trade it for !

It's "Silverstone" Metallic with "Charcoal" Interior.

Final~500 Editions:
100 Silverstone
100 Patriotic Blue
100 Bright Red
100 White
100 Black
500 Total > 11 were sent New Jersey Dealers. Interiors were either Charcoal or Camel Leather.

MN-STS-LOVER
12-01-07, 05:24 PM
Well if it were snowing there like it is here now....she might re-think getting rid of the Jeep!

dkozloski
12-01-07, 05:35 PM
One feature about the CTS compared to a Regal GS is the steering. My Regal GS had some kind of magnetic road feel feature on the steering that gave it a tiny notch in the center of travel that made it feel like the steering wheel was loose that the CTS doesn't have. If you like the GS you'll be doing backflips over a CTS. The CTS is better in every way. More power, quieter, smoother, more balanced handling, better looking.

Stoneage_Caddy
12-01-07, 05:43 PM
Volvo s40 is a bad choice , I work for volvo .....the s40 is based in the ford focus , and from a mechnaics point of view its a terrible little car...the generation prior to 2005 was even worse , a joint vetnure between DAF/Mitsu/Volvo ...do yourself a favor and stay away from any s40 or the wagon version v40/50

The s60 however is a WONDERFUL car , one of the last of the volvos that ford wasnt able to get there hands all over .....the s60 when it comes to volvo mechaics is admored as the 3rd or 4th best car theyeve ever done ....ask any volvo guy tho the old 240 was the best of the best ...Things to remeber witht he s60 , it will tell you when mantineance is due by a lamp on the dash , some intervals are just and oil change , some add a hepa filter , its timing belt will need changed at 105k service interval ...fuel pumps are VERY sensitive about fuel and is the trouble point of these cars ....Volvo is working ont he situation along with one other (throttle module) so before long there will be a fix ....

Also look into the wagon version called v70 , and if you get a chance to drive a S60R or V70R itll put a huge grin on your face , AWD and a 300hp turbo 5

Biggest thing i can say is VOLVO CARES ABOUT YOU!!!! ive worked for gm and watched the rest , i currently work for the best

Sandy
12-01-07, 06:14 PM
FINALLY FOUND THE LINK

http://images112.fotki.com/v581/photos/4/43979/179078/jeep-vi.jpg?1042643612

JimmyH
12-01-07, 06:33 PM
Never buy a Chrysler. Jeep included.

LS1Mike
12-01-07, 06:55 PM
One feature about the CTS compared to a Regal GS is the steering. My Regal GS had some kind of magnetic road feel feature on the steering that gave it a tiny notch in the center of travel that made it feel like the steering wheel was loose that the CTS doesn't have. If you like the GS you'll be doing backflips over a CTS. The CTS is better in every way. More power, quieter, smoother, more balanced handling, better looking.

D, I just can't agree with you on this point ever, after having a GTP(which is a Regal) and 3.2 CTS.
I would pick my GTP everytime. Of course is was supercharged and fully loaded.
It just held together better than my CTS has. It isn't any quieter and the seats in my CTS have cracked already. Of all the GM stuff I have had I dislike my CTS the most.

Jesda
12-01-07, 07:03 PM
Volvo and Cadillac sound like excellent choices. Don't forget Saab -- the real-world transaction prices are very, very low for what you get. Chicks dig the 9-3.

hueterm
12-01-07, 07:42 PM
What about the boxy Volvo S70 that the S60 replaced? They're getting a little older now, but you could probably still find one w/decent miles on it for $10K or less. I agree on the S40s though -- NO NO NO.

What about a Lincoln LS, or a Buick LaCrosse? I bet the depreciation has tanked the price on the LaCrosses and you could get a CPO dirt cheap.

I'd say to look for another Regal GS, but they're almost impossible to find.:stirpot:

(Sorry, I couldn't resist -- I've been keeping my eye out for one as well.)

JimmyH
12-01-07, 07:46 PM
That new little Volvo looks pretty fun.

Night Wolf
12-01-07, 08:10 PM
My friend has a 1999 Saab 9-5 4cyl turbo 5spd. I drove it a bit when I went up to NY, its a very nice driving car, a good midsize car too and the 4cyl is peppy. Before that he had a '01 Jetta 1.8T 5spd, which he liked alot, but after owning the Saab he says the Jetta felt like a toy. They are cheap to buy too... he got his for $5k out the door and it had around 100k miles on it.

JimmyH
12-01-07, 08:13 PM
I think the newer SAABs are among the best looking sedans out there.

I had a 99 Jetta VR6. For 11 months. Biggest POS I ever owned.

Stoneage_Caddy
12-01-07, 08:22 PM
The box s70 and 850 series is prolly second on the technicans fav list at any volvo dealer ...The 850/s70 family is very relible tough cars , im a huge fan of them personally , they are why im where im at ....but if i was to buy a volvo it would be a 93 240 "Classic" Wagon, so i could swap a northstar into it ....

The "little car" is the all new c30 , which for some reason volvo is not advertiseing ....Under the skin lives the current Euro Ford Focus RS, as insated of useing another costworth powertain for there lastest rally focus they use volvos inline 5...still a pain to work on , took me the beatter part of 5 hours to install the lowering kit that sweeden sent us for our dealer car. each dealer gets 2 they CANNOT sell to show accessory possiblitys witht he new c30 , one is a blue version 1.0 with a seedish flag ont he roof , the other is a fully optioned v 2.0 with the turbo version of the standard models inline 5...We have 5 ont he lot as i type this , with 1 more waiting t be taken out fo the plastic ...no one will buy them ...

Little known fact ....When Volvo was devloping the 850 they utilized unsold chevrolet citations from the US as mules ....so years ago tooling around goteburg sweeden you could have seen a chevy citation with a 250+ hp turbo 5 cylander ....the engines were so powerful that Volvo detuned them to keep the trannys in the 850r alive , only recently with the s60R as the genral public been aware of the potential of the volvo 5 cyl ...too bad the 07 model year was the last for the R series , no word yet on if we will see it again

another interesting note is the first generation S80 with the inline six uses the same transmission as the early 90s cadillacs with 4.9 engines ...that tranny also found its way into the first XC90S , with a bevel gear on it to provide for the awd system ..

JimmyH
12-01-07, 09:13 PM
I may look for a used c30 in a couple years to replace the Maxima. I am thinking 3-door for my next DD in any case.

dkozloski
12-01-07, 09:25 PM
D, I just can't agree with you on this point ever, after having a GTP(which is a Regal) and 3.2 CTS.
I would pick my GTP everytime. Of course is was supercharged and fully loaded.
It just held together better than my CTS has. It isn't any quieter and the seats in my CTS have cracked already. Of all the GM stuff I have had I dislike my CTS the most.
My Regal GS was supercharged and my 3.6L CTS would suck it up the exhaust pipe. The GS wind noise made conversation difficult above 65MPH. The CTS was silent up to about 90MPH. The GS and the CTS both had leather. The GS seats were like sitting on a bean bag that rocked all over the place. The GS is a lesser car by quite a ways in all respects. Worst feature of the GS was front wheel drive. Understeer under power on a slick hill was brutal. The finarkey TPMS that used wheel speed sensors alarmed all the time in the winter. The GS cost $15,000 less than the CTS and was $15,000 cheaper.

JimmyH
12-01-07, 09:28 PM
Not really a fair comparison. The CTS is new GM, GM that is once again serious about making cars. That Regal was from an era when GM didn't really seem to care about product development.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-01-07, 11:03 PM
I like the newer Saab 9-5's, for a few reasons.

-I think they're a very handsome car, in that odd Swedish way.
-You certainly don't see many around. That's a major plus for me.
-Turbo power, complete with boost guage!
-Coolest looking speedometer I've seen in a long time!
http://images2.ecarlist.com/photos/960_49680/640/14.jpg
-Loads of luxury features (compete with the A6, 5 Series, E Class, STS), but they're always a bargain in comparison
-Bargain by comparison
-Good in snow....FWD
-"forgotten"....(or maybe "ignorned" would be better?)

I like them more than I do most Volvos....Volvos, to me atleast, were always stodgy cars for those overly concerned with safety. Saabs, to me, are funky, off beat and somewhat kooky....cool.

Playdrv4me
12-02-07, 02:38 AM
We have a 2001 Jeep Cherokee 4X4 Limited XJ. I bought in brandy new. It's also a "Final-500" Edition, being made during the final week of XJ Cherokee production. Mileage is 44,575 in the 7 years. Condition is "Showroom New" without a single door ding, nor scratch, nor abrassion. The driver's leather seat has "lines" but no cracks. All carpeting is as new. The vehicle is equipped with every available option and lots more than is offered on thr 2007/08 Liberty or Patroit, such as 6-Way Power PASSENGER seat and overhead trip computer and info center. The 1nline-6 pulls like a mad man and that AMC designed Jeep engine regularily goes for 300,000 miles with care. The stereo is Cassette and C.D. both with power Amp & Subwoffer from Alpine, from Jeep. Karen & I keep her super mint, at all times. Neighbor says that he has never seen a cleaner Jeep. It has never been "Off-Road". We use it for marketing, and for getting out of this no-man's land our house is in, from December thru April.
She has a new set of tires, Bridgeton Duallys - new Shocks, Fact Spec, MoPARs, and all reg. maintenance is done on or near scheduling. Karen says that there is no car that she'd trade it for !

It's "Silverstone" Metallic with "Charcoal" Interior.

Final~500 Editions:
100 Silverstone
100 Patriotic Blue
100 Bright Red
100 White
100 Black
500 Total > 11 were sent New Jersey Dealers. Interiors were either Charcoal or Camel Leather.

The leather doesn't really wear in these, my mom's 2000 Limited has perfect leather as well, it's well made stuff. My 2003 Navigator Ultimate leather looks more worn than the Jeep does. It still smells new as well.

The XJ is a nice truck, and certainly better than the Liberty, but if I was going to get a semi-collectible Jeep it would be a 5.9 Limited ZJ in Platinum. Much more "liveable" truck to live with on a daily basis, better steering, better A/C capacity, nicer stereo and of course more power etc etc.

Playdrv4me
12-02-07, 02:49 AM
As far as the wife is concerned.... If there is ANY room for a CTS, then I dont see how it's up for discussion. The S40 is a neat little car (it's actually based on the European market Focus, not the shitty US one)... CTS wins over a Liberty any day of the week in my book.

If cost is a concern, 2003 Lincoln LS Premium Sport V8 with THX Navigation, Heated and Cooled seats, Xenon headlights and etc etc etc can be had for 15k.

Night Wolf
12-02-07, 02:59 AM
I like the newer Saab 9-5's, for a few reasons.

-I think they're a very handsome car, in that odd Swedish way.
-You certainly don't see many around. That's a major plus for me.
-Turbo power, complete with boost guage!
-Coolest looking speedometer I've seen in a long time!
http://images2.ecarlist.com/photos/960_49680/640/14.jpg
-Loads of luxury features (compete with the A6, 5 Series, E Class, STS), but they're always a bargain in comparison
-Bargain by comparison
-Good in snow....FWD
-"forgotten"....(or maybe "ignorned" would be better?)

I like them more than I do most Volvos....Volvos, to me atleast, were always stodgy cars for those overly concerned with safety. Saabs, to me, are funky, off beat and somewhat kooky....cool.

That gauge cluster looks just like my friends '99 9-5. Except his dosn't have a boost gauge, and I thinkt he numbers on the speedo were the same size. IMO, despite the tach and stuff, the dash just looks plain.

That car is pretty much a luxury car though. It had alot of neat features, besides leater seats, power everything, it has heated rear seats as well as front seats.... MAN I never knew how awesome heated seats were until I went to NY and it was 25* out. The car also has a "night panel" mode which is neat, it turns off all interior lights, except for auto climate control display, and turns off all gauges/lights on the dash, except for *part* of the speedo, only 0-90 stays lit up, everything else is off, the gauges themself turn off too. The car has dual zone climate control, keyless entry, IIRC a moon room, it has the fuel data center thing too. Even headlight wipers.

I never gave Saab a look, that was my first time in one of them, let alone driving one. It definitly is an upscale midsize car, its nice that you can get a 5spd in it, there is a turbo 4 and a turbo 6, but even the 4 was plenty powerful for regular driving. It had a nice ride to it aswell, my friend says it handles really well, but is still very comfortable for highway driving.

I still miss the Jetta, IMO the transmission was smoother shifting, and the dash gauges were just awesome on that car.... but the entire car seemed like it was built for a smaller person, the Saab is a nice size... when driving it, it felt like a nice sized well built car, I remember backing it up and looking behind me.... it's definitly a great all around car.

IMO it was almost a perfect blend of luxury for a "normal" car, meaning, it *is* a luxury car, and has alot of options and features, dual auto climate control etc... yet it dosn't have any strange suspension system or anything else.... and the turbo 4/5spd is a nice daily driver combo too. He was only getting like 24mpg mixed city/highway driving, which he said is normal for that car, but to me it is kinda low... his Jetta got the same mileage.

Honestly, if I wanted a normal daily driver car but not a generic boring midsize sedan, I'd definitly look at a Saab, now that I know what they are about, that '99 9-5 was a very nice car, and the 5spd was great, which is how I would get mine.

Cadillacboy
12-02-07, 09:17 AM
How 'bout Jaguar X Type ?
You can also consider Audi A4 , those are nice cars

Jesda
12-02-07, 10:11 AM
Why do I keep thinking you're 50?

AMGoff
12-02-07, 12:49 PM
Oh my... I forgot what kind of stir talk of a new car brings up in this bunch :yup:

Where to begin...

First off... Mike and Koz.. I'm going to have to side with Mike on this one... but then I'll be the first to admit that I've never driven a CTS. However... I LOVED my GS. Despite being from the "dark ages" of GM... those late W-body cars, especially their supercharged variants were fantastic. Those 3.8s were IMHO, the second greatest six-cylinder engine right behind the AMC/Jeep inline-six. Whoever said they are getting hard to find are correct... I've already checked within a 50 mile radius of me and there are but a handful of GS'... there are LS versions out the wazoo, but what's the point of an LS... I could get a dime a dozen Century if I wanted something like that. But the fact remains I'm still a little sour over losing the GS... for me at least it was damn-near perfect. While I like the Seville, there are still a lot of things I liked better about the Regal... Had I any control over the situation I would have probably kept it forever... the combination of the low, wide stance and jet-black color wrapped around that supercharged V6 made it the perfect sleeper.

Sandy and Play, the XJ Grand Cherokees were one hell of a truck. They looked good, rode well, and as I mentioned - I revere the 4.0L straight-six... had the wife picked up one of those, especially a Limited version, I think she would still be happy with it. Even the wife appreciates the older Jeeps... way back when, there was a time when we had "His and Hers" Cherokees... they were cheap to maintain, decent on gas, and never once left either of us stranded anywhere. It was probably our prior glowing experiences with Jeeps that helped seal the deal for her and the Liberty... but like I said, there are just too many areas in it where I can tell German hands have been. I just don't like it.

Stoney... To be honest, I know next to nothing about the S40 and have limited experience withe the S60. I can say that I do really like the S60... even more so with the AWD option. It really doesn't amount to a hill of beans to me since I primarily run the Grand Wagoneer in the winter (NOTHING handles better in snow and ice than that old tank!), but the wife will not drive it... she doesn't mind riding in it, but she just won't drive it herself for whatever reason. That was probably the only thing I liked about the Liberty - was that she had 4-wheel drive available to her when needed. So at this point, any car that comes with AWD available is a definite selling point.

Jimmy, my friend... we'll have to disagree on this. Prior to the GS.. I primarily owned Chrysler products.. and I still hold an affinity toward them. If it weren't for that whole Diamler fiasco I'd probably still have all Chryslers ... I'm still keeping my fingers crossed that some good will come out of the new owners.

hue, she will not get into anything more than 4-5 years old, regardless of miles. The Lacrosse is out of the question... too much of an "old lady car," same goes for the Lucerne (which I really like). And while I disagree with her, she even thinks the Lincoln LS is too much of an "old lady's car," despite the fact they're a decent looking car that can be had with just about every and any option available for dirt cheap these days.

Chad/Night, I really like the Saab 9-5, and so does the wife. IIRC... a few years back we checked out an '02 9-5 Arc... it was loaded, dual-zone a/c, heated and ventilated seats, heated rear seats, tiptronic transmission, and not only was it a blast to drive but it looked good doing it. It's because of that, the Saab is at the top of the list with the Volvo and Cadillac. There will be NO Volkswagon though... I should have stated earlier... the only rule is - NO Japanese or VW (and Audi by extension).

Cadillacboy, I kind of like the X-Type... I don't know how she would feel about it though. The biggest selling point is that they come available with AWD... I've seen 3.0L, AWD X-Types, fully loaded with low miles in the $15-17K range. Then again, being the bottom-of-the-barrel Jag - I'd have to imagine that there has to be a whole lot that came out of the Ford parts-bin.

Jesda, me 50?

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-02-07, 01:06 PM
The only thing that scares me about the Saabs is the relatively few dealers around, and I don't think a whole lot of people are familar with them, and are willing to work on them, but I'm sure I might be wrong about that.

Sandy
12-02-07, 01:07 PM
To which I would add that my folks from 1957 thru 1978 bought and drove nothing but Imperials. Never had a bad car, never had "car problems" and often took neighbors with other brands to work when their "luxury" cars failed to start on cold winter mornings. My extended family, likewise, only Imperials, or Chrysler New Yorkers or Three-Hundreds (It was NEVER done "300" ~ as is is being hyped now). Nothing else was even a consideration, due to the fabulous service the Imperials rendered. Their last was the 1978, when they were then too old to drive.
I am the lost soul of the family, today, with a Sixty Special and a Town Car Limited. Horrors be !

Playdrv4me
12-02-07, 01:49 PM
The only thing that scares me about the Saabs is the relatively few dealers around, and I don't think a whole lot of people are familar with them, and are willing to work on them, but I'm sure I might be wrong about that.

I thought like most other things, Saab was just another marketing arm of GM these days. Im fairly certain the 9-3 and 9-5 are pretty operationally similar to the Malibu chassis-wise, but the engine and transmission I'm not sure.

AMGoff
12-02-07, 01:57 PM
The only thing that scares me about the Saabs is the relatively few dealers around, and I don't think a whole lot of people are familar with them, and are willing to work on them, but I'm sure I might be wrong about that.

Luckily there a quite a few in this area. The closest is right over the bridge in DE.. it's about 15 miles away. There are another four dealers in NJ and PA that are all within a 30 mile radius of here.

LS1Mike
12-02-07, 03:05 PM
I thought like most other things, Saab was just another marketing arm of GM these days. Im fairly certain the 9-3 and 9-5 are pretty operationally similar to the Malibu chassis-wise, but the engine and transmission I'm not sure.

Yes, you are correct, I am not certain which parts swap, but must GM mechanics should be able to fix a Late model Saab.

dkozloski
12-02-07, 03:07 PM
Oh my... I forgot what kind of stir talk of a new car brings up in this bunch :yup:

Where to begin...

First off... Mike and Koz.. I'm going to have to side with Mike on this one... but then I'll be the first to admit that I've never driven a CTS. However... I LOVED my GS. Despite being from the "dark ages" of GM... those late W-body cars, especially their supercharged variants were fantastic. Those 3.8s were IMHO, the second greatest six-cylinder engine right behind the AMC/Jeep inline-six. Whoever said they are getting hard to find are correct... I've already checked within a 50 mile radius of me and there are but a handful of GS'... there are LS versions out the wazoo, but what's the point of an LS... I could get a dime a dozen Century if I wanted something like that. But the fact remains I'm still a little sour over losing the GS... for me at least it was damn-near perfect. While I like the Seville, there are still a lot of things I liked better about the Regal... Had I any control over the situation I would have probably kept it forever... the combination of the low, wide stance and jet-black color wrapped around that supercharged V6 made it the perfect sleeper.

Sandy and Play, the XJ Grand Cherokees were one hell of a truck. They looked good, rode well, and as I mentioned - I revere the 4.0L straight-six... had the wife picked up one of those, especially a Limited version, I think she would still be happy with it. Even the wife appreciates the older Jeeps... way back when, there was a time when we had "His and Hers" Cherokees... they were cheap to maintain, decent on gas, and never once left either of us stranded anywhere. It was probably our prior glowing experiences with Jeeps that helped seal the deal for her and the Liberty... but like I said, there are just too many areas in it where I can tell German hands have been. I just don't like it.

Stoney... To be honest, I know next to nothing about the S40 and have limited experience withe the S60. I can say that I do really like the S60... even more so with the AWD option. It really doesn't amount to a hill of beans to me since I primarily run the Grand Wagoneer in the winter (NOTHING handles better in snow and ice than that old tank!), but the wife will not drive it... she doesn't mind riding in it, but she just won't drive it herself for whatever reason. That was probably the only thing I liked about the Liberty - was that she had 4-wheel drive available to her when needed. So at this point, any car that comes with AWD available is a definite selling point.

Jimmy, my friend... we'll have to disagree on this. Prior to the GS.. I primarily owned Chrysler products.. and I still hold an affinity toward them. If it weren't for that whole Diamler fiasco I'd probably still have all Chryslers ... I'm still keeping my fingers crossed that some good will come out of the new owners.

hue, she will not get into anything more than 4-5 years old, regardless of miles. The Lacrosse is out of the question... too much of an "old lady car," same goes for the Lucerne (which I really like). And while I disagree with her, she even thinks the Lincoln LS is too much of an "old lady's car," despite the fact they're a decent looking car that can be had with just about every and any option available for dirt cheap these days.

Chad/Night, I really like the Saab 9-5, and so does the wife. IIRC... a few years back we checked out an '02 9-5 Arc... it was loaded, dual-zone a/c, heated and ventilated seats, heated rear seats, tiptronic transmission, and not only was it a blast to drive but it looked good doing it. It's because of that, the Saab is at the top of the list with the Volvo and Cadillac. There will be NO Volkswagon though... I should have stated earlier... the only rule is - NO Japanese or VW (and Audi by extension).

Cadillacboy, I kind of like the X-Type... I don't know how she would feel about it though. The biggest selling point is that they come available with AWD... I've seen 3.0L, AWD X-Types, fully loaded with low miles in the $15-17K range. Then again, being the bottom-of-the-barrel Jag - I'd have to imagine that there has to be a whole lot that came out of the Ford parts-bin.

Jesda, me 50?
AMGoff, are you talking about that OHC Jeep Gladiator six? Those things had stamped sheet metal cam followers that ground themselves to pieces while you looked at them. They were definately not a cold weather engine.

dkozloski
12-02-07, 03:09 PM
I thought that SAAB was just another GM car built overseas like a Holden.

Stoneage_Caddy
12-02-07, 03:13 PM
the saab 9-5 shares nothing platform wise with GM , only the current 9-3 and 9-7 are cars that came from GM ...

sure the new s40 is based on the euro focus ....doesnt make it any beatter, it was still desgined by ford with no consideration for quality or ease of maintence ....it takes one hour to change the hepa filter ....a job that in other volvos takes 5 mintues ....

LS1Mike
12-02-07, 04:33 PM
the saab 9-5 shares nothing platform wise with GM , only the current 9-3 and 9-7 are cars that came from GM ...



Cool, I knew it was the really late model ones, just wasn't sure what platforms.

Playdrv4me
12-02-07, 04:43 PM
the saab 9-5 shares nothing platform wise with GM , only the current 9-3 and 9-7 are cars that came from GM ...

Yep, I was still lumping the 9-3 and 9-5 together since the previous generations were both based on the Opel Vectra, I forgot they separated when the generations changed.

If one must go with a Volvo, the S60R isn't the first real performance Volvo... That honor would go to the 850 T5R Sedan and Wagon. Those cars have a cult following and last forever. The S60R was just the mass marketed re-incarnation of that truly special car. The 850 T5-R is truly rewarding *if* you can find one. Otherwise the S60R is a great car too.

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/1/web/457000-457999/457120_33_full.jpg

Night Wolf
12-02-07, 05:38 PM
can we get some pictures and brief details about the "best of the best" Volvo's.... to fill in those of us that know pretty much nothing about them?

Stoneage_Caddy
12-02-07, 06:54 PM
sure , im inbetween online corses on volvos site

AMGoff
12-02-07, 10:57 PM
AMGoff, are you talking about that OHC Jeep Gladiator six? Those things had stamped sheet metal cam followers that ground themselves to pieces while you looked at them. They were definately not a cold weather engine.

I believe you are thinking about the 232 (3.8) straight-six that was used in the J-trucks from '65 until '70 I believe.

The AMC 258 (4.2) was a really good engine... and it's offspring - the 242 (4.0) was damn-near indestructible. While I'm sure that you will do your best to find fault in them my friend, the fact remains they are fantastic engines. I've put over 200,000 miles on both a 4.2 and 4.0, as well as over 300,000 on another 4.0... none of them missed a single beat.

Playdrv4me
12-02-07, 11:53 PM
Like Adam said, the 4.0 I6 is one of the most indestructible engines on the face of this planet. Why would anyone find fault in one of those?

They may have blow-by issues and some other minor inherent quirks, piston-slap etc. as they age, but nothing fatal.

I will however admit I don't know much about the 4.2 that came before it.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-02-07, 11:58 PM
The Jeep 4.0 I-6 is IMO the second finest OHV six cylinder out there...right after GM's 3800.

dkozloski
12-03-07, 12:05 AM
The AMC sixes I'm talking about were those with ohc crossflow heads, carburetors, and no exhaust heat riser. They had water heated intakes and took forever to warm up. All the time they were warming up they had raw gas going by the rings and diluting the oil. In a months time of short runs they could "make" nearly a quart of oil. Some had cam followers that were a stamped out steel pad, spot welded to the rocker arm. With the diluted oil they would grind the pads and the cam to dust in one winter. They may have been great in the banana belt but they weren't worth a hoot around here. The six that is the standard by which all others are judged is the 270 and 302 GMC which started life as the 1926 Buick six. That's the engine that powered thousands of 6X6 trucks over the Burma Trail, the AlCan highway, and the Red Ball express.

AMGoff
12-03-07, 12:16 AM
Like Adam said, the 4.0 I6 is one of the most indestructible engines on the face of this planet. Why would anyone find fault in one of those?

They may have blow-by issues and some other minor inherent quirks, piston-slap etc. as they age, but nothing fatal.

I will however admit I don't know much about the 4.2 that came before it.

It's a refreshing change of pace when we actually find common ground every now and then...


The Jeep 4.0 I-6 is IMO the second finest OHV six cylinder out there...right after GM's 3800.

I would wholeheartedly agree with you, except for the ordering. Not to detract from the GM 3.8 in any way as it's a fantastic engine... However, in general I just prefer the mechanical theory behind the straight-six over a V6 - for both the inherent balance and plain simplicity that comes with the design.

I can only hope that with the recent moves of automakers going back to RWD, we'll see a resurgence of the straight-six.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-03-07, 12:27 AM
However, in general I just prefer the mechanical theory behind the straight-six over a V6 - for both the inherent balance and plain simplicity that comes with the design.

True, and I've always liked the I-6 more than the V-6, but the 3800 wins in my opinion because you can get it supercharged...and it's a quieter, smoother(?) engine than that I-6. That 4.0 has a wierd, rough sound to it.

Other six cylinders I like:

Nissan 3.0/3.5 DOHC V6
Mercedes 3.2 DOHC I-6 (aside from the damn headgaskets!!!!!!!!)
Jaguar 4.0 DOHC I-6 (much more powerful than the Merc 3.2)
GM 3.9 OHV V-6
GM 4.2 DOHC I-6
Ford 4.9 OHV I-6 (some would say it's better than the Jeep 4.0)
BMW's 3.0 Twin Turbo I-6....well basically any BMW I-6

And the list goes on, and on, and on....

dkozloski
12-03-07, 02:46 AM
Anybody besides me remember those thousands of cracked AMC V8 heads?

Fire and Ice
12-03-07, 03:36 AM
Never buy a Chrysler. Jeep included.

We all know Chyrysler = MOPAR.

Mostly Old Parts And Rust

or

Moments Of Performance Are Rare

anyone got any others? :D

Craig

Night Wolf
12-03-07, 08:21 AM
I am a personal fan of the Jeeo 4.0 too..... and while it is durable, it's suspectable to failure as any other engine... the 4.0 in Aimee's fathers '93 Grand Cherokee blew the head gasket around 138k miles.

Playdrv4me
12-03-07, 08:25 AM
Yea but a headgasket on the 4.0 takes what, 15 minutes to change? LOL.

Gosh the 4.0, 318 and 360 V8's are such nice motors to work on.

Night Wolf
12-03-07, 08:34 AM
Yea but a headgasket on the 4.0 takes what, 15 minutes to change? LOL.

Gosh the 4.0, 318 and 360 V8's are such nice motors to work on.

sure seemed like it would take alot longer then that when staring at it :)

I remember doing some basic work on that 4.0.... I suppose it is an easy engine to work on, but it was kinda crammed in the Grand Cherokee, its a long engine... I reember when the idler pullies for the serpentine belt seized up..... that was a pain in the butt, one of the idler pullies was tough to get to and the whole belt system was really odd, trying to adjust the tension on it and stuff.

Actually that Jeep wasn't very reliable, it would choose at random when to just not start (crank but not start) and had no power at all, I mean like it made my ragged out 307 Fleetwood seem quick.... I think there was issues with that engine looming for some time before it finally quit... they had it for 10 yrs tho, but still, seems like somewhat low miles for the ledgendary Jeep 4.0.

Playdrv4me
12-03-07, 09:02 AM
I remember my 1997 Jeep Grand Cherokee TSi with the 5.2L 318 motor was the very first car I ever worked on myself. Wasn't a big thing for most people here, just spark plugs, but it was an achievement for me :)

AMGoff
12-03-07, 01:02 PM
The 258s were actually a bit easier to work on than the 242s, simply because the latter came with EFI and added a whole new level of complication to the mix.

I'll be the first to admit that I don't particularly enjoy working on newer vehicles... however, the 360 is an absolute pleasure to work on. Everyone always asks "Why haven't you joined the IFSJA?" It's simple really.... there's nothing on the Grand Wag I've never been able to tackle with my own two hands and my trusty Haynes manual - probably the best 20 bucks I've ever spent.

As far as the Grand Cherokees go, especially the first generation... it always seemed to me that not necessarily the motor itself, but everything else around it tended to fall apart.

dkozloski
12-03-07, 01:23 PM
I came across a reference that the AMC I6 in Jeeps was the absolute last vestage of AMC to die. It also stated that Chrysler was trying to make the whole thing go away and the last few engines really suffered from purposful neglect.

AMGoff
12-03-07, 01:38 PM
I came across a reference that the AMC I6 in Jeeps was the absolute last vestage of AMC to die. It also stated that Chrysler was trying to make the whole thing go away and the last few engines really suffered from purposful neglect.

Koz... only you would try to find fault in an engine as fantastic as both the 4.2 and 4.0.

I finally realize why the state of Alaska sends all of it's citizens a check every year... it's to make up for instilling such a deep, inherent level of negativity in it's population.

dkozloski
12-03-07, 02:05 PM
Koz... only you would try to find fault in an engine as fantastic as both the 4.2 and 4.0.

I finally realize why the state of Alaska sends all of it's citizens a check every year... it's to make up for instilling such a deep, inherent level of negativity in it's population.
I make a simple statement that the I6 was the last trace of AMC to disappear from the automotive scene and that essentially Chyrsler was glad to see it go for whatever reasons and you attack me as being negative. The I6 must have been held in some regard by Chrysler to a point to keep it around for as long as they did. They terminated it for reasons unrelated to its merit. How can that possibly be indicative of negativity on my part? Peace brother! Lighten up! Around here the engine had serious drivability issues that were not prevalent in your area. Deal with it. As far as that goes, the old Chrysler slant six was the real Mopar success. It made a great powerplant for all kinds of industrial aplications.

Playdrv4me
12-03-07, 03:21 PM
As far as the Grand Cherokees go, especially the first generation... it always seemed to me that not necessarily the motor itself, but everything else around it tended to fall apart.

I have used those *EXACT SAME WORDS* on numerous occasions before. That is exactly what tends to happen to them. That and diff failures of course for anyone backed with a D44AL.

dkozloski
12-03-07, 04:16 PM
I have used those *EXACT SAME WORDS* on numerous occasions before. That is exactly what tends to happen to them. That and diff failures of course for anyone backed with a D44AL.
My nephew drove his Grand Cherokee over to my house and as he drove up there was a pinpoint stream of antifreeze shooting out the front from the radiator through one of the slots in the grill. I pointed it out to him and he remarked, "That's the least of my worries with this POS".

hueterm
12-03-07, 08:06 PM
A friend of mine has 3 black Grand Cherokees (in addition to a sickness...): a '97 Limited I-6, an '03 Overland HOV8, and an '06 Overland w/the Hemi...the '97 has like 200+K miles on it and will not die. I think all it's had to have were an A/C compressor and something w/the transmission, other than general maintenance items.

If I found a low mileage Orvis edition in Orvis Green -- I'd buy it in a second...

dkozloski
12-03-07, 08:24 PM
I have an Orvis "Wes Jordan" split bamboo flyrod that I wouldn't trade you for a dozen Grand Cherokees.

hueterm
12-03-07, 08:30 PM
Yeah, I do like their stuff. I have a 10 year old briefcase that still looks 90% of new.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-03-07, 11:46 PM
What is Orvis anyways? Is it like an outdoors type store...ala LL Bean?

I gave thought to buying a first generation Grand Cherokee...thank god I didn't pull the trigger on that.

dkozloski
12-03-07, 11:54 PM
Orvis started out selling fishpoles about 150 years ago. They have always been known for quality and workmanship. They branched out to other outdoor stuff 50 years ago.

Playdrv4me
12-04-07, 12:03 AM
Yea it's like Eddie Bauer or LL Bean.

The Orvis Edition Grand Cherokee was a feeble attempt at emulating the Eddie Bauer juggernaut over at Ford. I believe it lasted from 1995-1997. It was replaced the 5.9 Limited in 1998.

The Orvis designers liked green... lots... and lots... of GREEN.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-04-07, 12:10 AM
I've got the '98 Jeep full line brochure...and I think the Orvis is in there, or I might be mistaken. But I remember seeing pics of them somewhere....they had those lacy wheels, and they were painted gold...and the interior was the plush leather seats, and I think they were like gold/green or solid green.

hueterm
12-04-07, 02:14 AM
Yeah, they were hunter green and camel seats. Totally obnoxious but so worth it... There's one on eBay right now, but it has too many miles. Right color though since it has the green exterior.

Night Wolf
12-04-07, 06:37 AM
I have used those *EXACT SAME WORDS* on numerous occasions before. That is exactly what tends to happen to them. That and diff failures of course for anyone backed with a D44AL.

In the case of that '93, the truck itself was pretty good, they did blow up the D35 twice, the major problems was in fact the 4.0. I thought it was odd too.

I'd still like a 2003-2006 TJ Rubicon, other then that I'm content being Jeepless, and the rate they hold their value, I'll be content for a long time to come.

Playdrv4me
12-04-07, 12:16 PM
I've got the '98 Jeep full line brochure...and I think the Orvis is in there, or I might be mistaken. But I remember seeing pics of them somewhere....they had those lacy wheels, and they were painted gold...and the interior was the plush leather seats, and I think they were like gold/green or solid green.

I suspect alot of those brochures you've got are published long before final model run info is finalized. In the case of the '98 model year, I know for SURE no Orvis ever made it to a dealer lot. If it did, it was a holdover '97.

But you're absolutely right, they had the lacy wheels with a green/gold color scheme, as well as a contrasting green on tan color scheme inside. The '95s had the pre-snowflake wheels but still had green accents inside.

I don't know if you've got the brochure for the 2004 V, but it shows it without a Navigation system, which later was changed to standard equipment etc.

AMGoff
12-04-07, 02:02 PM
So we just got back from checking out some Saabs. I must say that I do indeed like the 9-5 as much as I remembered it... it's just so quirky, but in a good way. I was left completely uninspired with the 9-3... there was absolutely nothing about it that made me say "I'd enjoy driving this car," I think the wife felt the same way.

Unfortunately my worst fear was realized... she ended up liking the 9-2x... she liked the pep of the 2.5L turbo (to be honest, it did have pretty good pep), she liked that it was a hatch, and she liked that it was the only AWD Saab. My problem of course is that... it's a damned Subaru! Granted... the idea of having either a Subaru or a Mazda is not as bad as having some Toyondan... it still goes against my fundamental rule though.

The only saving grace is that she did feel that the 9-2x was a little too "spartan" for our tastes... especially compared to the 9-5 - which for all intents and purposes is a nice, mid-size luxury car. She did like the 9-5, I don't know if she did as much as I did, but she liked it nonetheless.

Volvos are next on the list... although just from checking them out online, I already know she has a predisposition for the S40... especially the when she saw one in "Passion Red." Hopefully she'll be swayed by the extra "plushness" and AWD availability of the S60.

If I were to get really lucky, she'd become enamored with the S80... I'm thinking that would look much better next to the Seville ;) She did see a light metallic green S80 that she loved the color on... if they made the "Passion Red" on the S80 she'd probably be sold... although I think the S80 might be viewed as a little too conservative for such a color... oh well.

AMGoff
12-04-07, 02:21 PM
Wow... here's a first for everyone... I'm actually going to list a retraction!

I think I may have spoke too soon... an S80 may be totally out of the question... There are tons of horrible reviews out there for them! (Sorry Sandy) Especially when compared to the S60 which seems to have nothing but glowing reviews... actually even the S40 has many more positive reviews than the S80.

I could be way off base here... and I hope our resident Volvo expert will chime in... but there just seems to be a lot of quality issues with the S80 that many people are reporting. Just from everything I'm reading, it seems like Volvo overextended themselves with the S80... because of such, much like any company that treads too far from familiar waters... the end product tends to suffer. Maybe the brand-new ones have gotten better... but they're WAY too expensive... if we were going to spend that kind of money then there's a dozen other cars I'd rather blow it on... oh well.

Looks like if it'll ultimately be a Volvo, it'll either be an S40 or an S60, but who knows... we might be surprised by one of the wagons too... just not the XC90 or whatever it's called... we have no use for an SUV as an all-around daily driver and it would be hypocritical for us to get one as we constantly bitch about those, especially the soccer-mom set who get in them for shits and giggles.

Anyway.. I'll stop there to save everyone from one of my typical rants! All I know is no S80.

Playdrv4me
12-04-07, 02:39 PM
What kind of problems are being reported with the S80? Is it anything major? I remember looking at them for mom a while back and either I didn't read the reviews at all, or I didn't find any dealbreaker type stuff.

Seems like whatever you found really soured you on them.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-04-07, 02:40 PM
Whatever happened to the idea of a diesel Mercedes?

dkozloski
12-04-07, 04:27 PM
There used to be an itinerant bookeeper around here that did work for all the roadside businesses between here and Valdez on the Richardson Highway. He bought a diesel Mercedes and for the next few years we had to hear how he could drive round trip to Valdez on $2.50 worth of heating oil. It all came to a screeching halt when he ran over a rock and punched a hole in the cast aluminum oil sump. For the cost of repairs he could have been driving the worse gas hog alive.

AMGoff
12-04-07, 05:24 PM
Whatever happened to the idea of a diesel Mercedes?

This is all for the wife, she's decided she wants to get rid of her '06 Liberty that she just had to have, the one she ended up trading the GS in for not more than three months ago without even telling me.

I've been tossing around the diesel idea for myself, however I'm not as impulsive as the wife is... I'll only pull the trigger on something when I find exactly what I want for the price that I want.

Besides, I'm still not all that keen on the idea of owning a Benz...


What kind of problems are being reported with the S80? Is it anything major? I remember looking at them for mom a while back and either I didn't read the reviews at all, or I didn't find any dealbreaker type stuff.

Seems like whatever you found really soured you on them.

Finding all-around glowing experiences from S80 owners are few and far between. There seems to be LOTS of electrical problems, ranging from all kinds of sensors, to window and lock failures, to radio problems, to stability/traction control problems. I've read numerous throttle body issues, strut failures, sway-bar failures, alternator failures, serpentine problems, and more.. many of which are coming well before the 100K mile mark. Heck, I even read one person who had their brand-new '07 completely refused to start at 1300 miles!

Granted, I realize that as with most things, people who take the time to write something usually do so because they have a problem. But still.. there seems to be an inordinate amount of people having issues with their S80s, many of which seem to be common throughout. It's especially noticeable when compare to the S60, which the majority of it's owners all seem to report glowing experiences regardless of whether it's one year old or six-seven years old, with the number of S60 owners reporting major problems being in the vast minority.

LS1Mike
12-04-07, 08:24 PM
Dude, just get another Regal, install a Quaife Diff, two sizes smaller supercharger pulley, exhaust, CAI, tune, and beat up on those cars mentioned and save 10,000 bucks.
:)

AMGoff
12-04-07, 08:55 PM
Dude, just get another Regal, install a Quaife Diff, two sizes smaller supercharger pulley, exhaust, CAI, tune, and beat up on those cars mentioned and save 10,000 bucks.
:)

I'd absolutely love to... hell, you have no idea how much I wished I still had mine... believe me, I've given the wife so much grief for getting rid of it... At least I've finally gotten her to admit it was a stupid move, especially now that she sees how relatively rare they are.

But they're just not out there. Any ones I can find are older ones with tons of miles on them or they're LSs. If I could find another jet-black '04 with low-miles, I'd jump on it (and make her jump on it) in a heartbeat... But it seems that most people blessed with rational wives are holding on to them...

LS1Mike
12-04-07, 09:03 PM
Hey how about a Grand Prix GXP? I like those a lot.

lawfive
12-04-07, 09:05 PM
I thought this was going to be a B&D thread. Never mind...

AMGoff
12-04-07, 09:06 PM
Hey how about a Grand Prix GXP? I like those a lot.

I know for all intents and purposes they're the same car... I've just never been that big a fan of Pontiac styling.

LS1Mike
12-04-07, 09:38 PM
except the GXP has the 303 HP V8 and runs good!

I~LUV~Caddys8792
12-04-07, 09:41 PM
I know for all intents and purposes they're the same car... I've just never been that big a fan of Pontiac styling.

Close....the GXP is the 5.3L V8 powered Grand Prix...the "replacement" for the GTP, although the GTP was technically still built along with the GXP, but they called it the GT.



I thought this was going to be a B&D thread. Never mind...


LOL!!!!!

hueterm
12-04-07, 10:30 PM
I'd absolutely love to... hell, you have no idea how much I wished I still had mine... believe me, I've given the wife so much grief for getting rid of it... At least I've finally gotten her to admit it was a stupid move, especially now that she sees how relatively rare they are.

But they're just not out there. Any ones I can find are older ones with tons of miles on them or they're LSs. If I could find another jet-black '04 with low-miles, I'd jump on it (and make her jump on it) in a heartbeat... But it seems that most people blessed with rational wives are holding on to them...

I've only ever looked at eBay for these...have you checked Autotrader?

There are 239 GSs with less than 100K miles 1998 model year and newer.

There's an 02 Abboud with 48K miles at Coleman Buick in Lawrenceville, NJ (if that's close to you...).

Playdrv4me
12-04-07, 10:33 PM
This is all for the wife, she's decided she wants to get rid of her '06 Liberty that she just had to have, the one she ended up trading the GS in for not more than three months ago without even telling me.

I've been tossing around the diesel idea for myself, however I'm not as impulsive as the wife is... I'll only pull the trigger on something when I find exactly what I want for the price that I want.

Besides, I'm still not all that keen on the idea of owning a Benz...



Finding all-around glowing experiences from S80 owners are few and far between. There seems to be LOTS of electrical problems, ranging from all kinds of sensors, to window and lock failures, to radio problems, to stability/traction control problems. I've read numerous throttle body issues, strut failures, sway-bar failures, alternator failures, serpentine problems, and more.. many of which are coming well before the 100K mile mark. Heck, I even read one person who had their brand-new '07 completely refused to start at 1300 miles!

Granted, I realize that as with most things, people who take the time to write something usually do so because they have a problem. But still.. there seems to be an inordinate amount of people having issues with their S80s, many of which seem to be common throughout. It's especially noticeable when compare to the S60, which the majority of it's owners all seem to report glowing experiences regardless of whether it's one year old or six-seven years old, with the number of S60 owners reporting major problems being in the vast minority.

Fair enough... that would be enough to raise my eyebrow as well.

AMGoff
12-05-07, 01:12 AM
except the GXP has the 303 HP V8 and runs good!


Close....the GXP is the 5.3L V8 powered Grand Prix...the "replacement" for the GTP, although the GTP was technically still built along with the GXP, but they called it the GT.





LOL!!!!!

My mistake... I was thinking of the GTP. Just shows how little I'm into Pontiacs... the GXP didn't even register. Were I to go for an LS4 W-body, I'd be more inclined toward a Lacrosse Super or an Impala SS. Were I for some reason to go for a V8 Pontiac it would probably be for a Northstar-powered Bonneville!


I've only ever looked at eBay for these...have you checked Autotrader?

There are 239 GSs with less than 100K miles 1998 model year and newer.

There's an 02 Abboud with 48K miles at Coleman Buick in Lawrenceville, NJ (if that's close to you...).

Lawrenceville is pretty far... and I was never very fond of the Abboud edition Regals... the newest ones are already 4 years old now, I'd really have to find an '04 like mine was, '03 at the oldest. After checking on Autotrader, the closest black '04 with less than 60K miles is around 70 miles away from me.

I'm really picky with my GSs... they've gotta be black, the only other color I would possibly consider would be the red/crimson. I'm also picky about mileage, especially when it would be a daily driver, it's gotta be low, low, low.


Fair enough... that would be enough to raise my eyebrow as well.

Yeah... I was fairly surprised by it all. I had always kind of liked the S80s, but the S60s are pretty darned nice as well though.

hueterm
12-05-07, 01:14 AM
Yeah, N* Bonneville GXP is way better than GP GXP...