: Stock Head/Cam 346 LS6 w/ bolton's pre-post Fast 90/90 Results



trukk
11-29-07, 11:35 AM
initial mods were:

- Corsa 2.5" dual Exhaust w/ H Pipe.
- Kooks 1.75" longtubes, w/ metallic cats.
- Lingenfleter CAI (basically a K&N filter surrounded by plastic, sealing to the hood to create a 'cool' compartment, sperate from the rest of the engine compartment.)
- Stealth V FFV v2 (basically this is like a smooth bellows for a CTS-V. It replaces the stock squeeze tube and elbow to the TB.)
- Katech Ported Stock TB.
- Dyno tune by Brett @ F-Body Central.
I added:

- Nick Williams 90 MM Billet Throttle body w/ ETC.
- Tony Mamo ported Fast 90 Intake Manifold.
- Retune by Brett.
Testing info:

- Dyno was Mustang 1100SE, using SAE correction.
- Tuned with WB02 & EFILive
- Tune was conservative, as car is a Daily Driver, used about 6 times per year for HPDE's weekends at the road course. AFR was kept at about 12 across the board.
Results:

+9 peak rwhp
-3 peak rwtq
-9 average HP
-4 average TQ
http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/8660/winterpost9090dynohp9.jpg
My goal was to wrap up my bolt on's, in preparation for a cam, and then heads later down the line. I don't plan to go with an EWP. I will add an under drive pulley when I do my cam. With that in mind, the overall gains were about what I expected. I was a bit surprised that I lost so much under the curve, but I guess the stock cam/heads are having some issues with the increased flow in and out.

This was definately a chunk of change ($750 for Fast, $400 for NW, $500 for port, $350 for install/re-tune) On par with the cost of Headers/Cats (at least for a CTS-V, they are expensive).
I'm hoping that I am now well positioned to see a very nice gain from a cam.

Thanks for taking a look,

Chris

rand49er
11-29-07, 12:02 PM
Chris, did you just trade off a little mid-range for a bit more high-end?

(I have a firm grasp of the obvious. :cool:)

When does the cam and pulley get done?

trukk
11-29-07, 12:42 PM
Chris, did you just trade off a little mid-range for a bit more high-end?

(I have a firm grasp of the obvious. :cool:)

When does the cam and pulley get done?

Well bottom line would be, I lost a lot down low, for a bit up high. I should gain a bunch when putting in the cam. I'm not sure when I'll get to that. Hopefully springish, but we'll see.

It seems like all the mods I do, end up cost about 2k:

Corsa + Rt Cats = 2k

LPE CAI + FFV + Katech TB + Tune = $1.5k

Headers + all assocaited gunk = $2k

Fast 90/90 = $2k

I'm getting depressed :D

-Chris

1FASTSS
11-29-07, 01:27 PM
Don't get depressed...now when you do the cam you'll pick up a ton with the bolt ons you have. I think the cam alone will make up the difference and it's only another 2K right?

TexasLonghorn
11-29-07, 01:42 PM
Thank you for posting your results. This makes my decision on my next mod easier. I was considering the fast 90 setup, but I will hold off now. I am sorry your new setup did not work out as well as you wanted.

trukk
11-29-07, 02:30 PM
It's all good. I'm not mad depressed, or disapointed. I know this is a good setup for a heads/cam 346. I just need to get a cam :D

Any recomendations? I want something that will add a bunch of power, but I don't want to be changing valve springs yearly, so it can't have crazy lift. I don't care so much about lumpy idle, although it can't loosen fillings at the stoplight.

My tuner recommened a torquer v2 232/234 .595/.598 on 113. These have X-ER lobes, which seem a bit much. I definately want to stear clear of anything on an LSK, or more than .600 lift. (again due to my DD the car).

-Chris

NormV
11-29-07, 03:07 PM
Chris, you have volume but not velocity. That is where the torque is lost. The magic stick should show big gains and a new found driving pleasure.

Get it ready for Luke's spring fling at VIR.

Norm

trukk
11-29-07, 03:21 PM
Chris, you have volume but not velocity. That is where the torque is lost. The magic stick should show big gains and a new found driving pleasure.

Get it ready for Luke's spring fling at VIR.

Norm

Heh, my wife always says I have velocity but no volume. HMMM

That's a big NO to the MS3 or MS4. They are just too big for a daily driver. Like I said earlier, I don't want to be checking/changing valve springs, every other oil change.

I don't have a time table yet on a cam :D

-Chris

trukk
11-29-07, 03:31 PM
P.S. I just spoke with Luke, and the spring fling will be at Summit Friday May 9th.

-Chris

LB, sorry to steal your thunder :D

1FASTSS
11-29-07, 03:31 PM
You can get a very nice custom cam made at Speed Inc. They do great work and know there sh*t about cams...they've tried many different combos. They have a 007 cam which has sock idle and sound until you hit the gas which is the route I will probably go down the road once I spend my 6K to get there.

http://LS1speed.com

GUNRDY
11-29-07, 10:31 PM
1FASTSS, what kind of power did you get out that cam (dyno graph)
I checked out the Speed Inc website and the specs on that cam seem perfect for where I want to go. It was fun being able to rev my C5 to 7K but I feel my V is alot heavier car that needs a lot of torque.

trukk, I might be wrong but if you don't want a huge lift cam then you probably should not have blown all that money on the FAST 90/90. From everything I've heard unless your running over 7 litres, or boosting above 12 psi then the stock LS6 intake (ported TB is a consistent hp maker) is adequate. Not knocking your efforts just saying the dollar to hp return would have been better if you spent that money on Cam and or heads.


Just food for thought.

-frank

CTSV_Rob
11-29-07, 11:21 PM
I have not done this yet but I read an article about heads and cams and they were getting some impressive HP gains with the cam swap but they did not see a signifigant TQ gain until the heads were replaced. This was for an LS2 so the results of course may be different for the LS6.

I am looking into this but funds are a bit tight right now so I will just be playing with the tune for the moment.

Really cool stuff and thank you for sharing what you have so far.

lunarx
11-29-07, 11:23 PM
So the 90 was too big for your setup?
Trade me your Fast 90 for my Fast 78. :devil:

trukk
11-30-07, 12:57 PM
So the 90 was too big for your setup?
Trade me your Fast 90 for my Fast 78. :devil:


Heh, I tell you what, I'll send over my 90, for your C5R block :D

BTW, you know you can buy the upper 90mm shell for the FAST intake by itself right? It think it runs about $350 bucks.

-Chris

trukk
11-30-07, 12:59 PM
trukk, I might be wrong but if you don't want a huge lift cam then you probably should not have blown all that money on the FAST 90/90. From everything I've heard unless your running over 7 litres, or boosting above 12 psi then the stock LS6 intake (ported TB is a consistent hp maker) is adequate. Not knocking your efforts just saying the dollar to hp return would have been better if you spent that money on Cam and or heads.


Just food for thought.

-frank

I will eventually retire this car from DD use, and will probabaly go with a retarded cam (err not retarded in cam speak, but retarded as in SUPA BIG!) then. I won't have to make any changes at that time.

I have already pruchased 2 throttle bodies, and 2 sets of cats. I dont; feel like buying things twice any more.

MOHR BIGGER INTAKES, NOW! :suspense:

-Chris

1FASTSS
11-30-07, 01:09 PM
1FASTSS, what kind of power did you get out that cam (dyno graph)
I checked out the Speed Inc website and the specs on that cam seem perfect for where I want to go. It was fun being able to rev my C5 to 7K but I feel my V is alot heavier car that needs a lot of torque.



I do not have a graph, as I do not have this cam yet. They built my camaro and I know the shop manager pretty good and in his ZO6 made something like 440rwhp with this cam and mild heads from what I remember. I'm sure if you wanted to do something with more torque down in the low range they could figure something out for you but since these V's have 3.73 you shouldn't worry about lossing a little TQ. The gears more than make up for it and it'll pull like a muther. :lildevil:

lunarx
11-30-07, 02:32 PM
Heh, I tell you what, I'll send over my 90, for your C5R block :D

BTW, you know you can buy the upper 90mm shell for the FAST intake by itself right? It think it runs about $350 bucks.

-Chris
Yes, I got prices of $400 for it.
Do you know where to get it for $350?

However, like you did, I want to get a baseline of where I stand now, before going 90.
I was cautioned (only by one person though) that the bottom end might feel a bit stumbly with the 90.
Untill your post, I never heard anyone mention a negative to the 90.

How does the very low end feel (sub 2K)?

trukk
11-30-07, 04:39 PM
I was cautioned (only by one person though) that the bottom end might feel a bit stumbly with the 90.
Untill your post, I never heard anyone mention a negative to the 90.

How does the very low end feel (sub 2K)?

I'll be honest, my @ss-o-meter can't tell much difference. It doesn't feel any slower at all. Up high, it seems to go from 5500 to redline quicker, but a big part of that is probabaly 40 Degrees outside with low humidity.

It does make a bit of a small whistle sound now at certain throttle positions. It's not too loud, just enough ever once in a while to say "That guy is definately not stock."

the NW 90, is freakin mammoth. it looks like a manhole, when the intake elbow is off :D

-Chris

onebadcad
11-30-07, 05:29 PM
Stop screwing around and go with the 105MM TB.

JonCR96Z
11-30-07, 05:42 PM
I'm sure this will get ignored like it does every time I post it, but get Patrick G on the other board to spec you a cam. I just had him do one for me, it's a 230/234 .612"/.598" 111+4. It hard to beat having a cam made especially for your application.

Jon

JonCR96Z
11-30-07, 05:47 PM
Yes, I got prices of $400 for it.
Do you know where to get it for $350?

However, like you did, I want to get a baseline of where I stand now, before going 90.
I was cautioned (only by one person though) that the bottom end might feel a bit stumbly with the 90.
Untill your post, I never heard anyone mention a negative to the 90.

How does the very low end feel (sub 2K)?

I can't tell that I lost anything down low with the FAST 90, ofcourse 3hp in trukk's case isn't something I would be able to feel. Here is my graph from a while back with the FAST90, EWP, and Magnaflow.
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/JonCR96Z/CTSVdyno.jpg

trukk
11-30-07, 08:09 PM
I'm sure this will get ignored like it does every time I post it, but get Patrick G on the other board to spec you a cam. I just had him do one for me, it's a 230/234 .612"/.598" 111+4. It hard to beat having a cam made especially for your application.

Jon

I'll probabaly do that. Certainly couldn't hurt. What's he charge? $25 or something?

Isn't that cam going to be mega lumpy on a 111, or does advancing it that much tone it down?

I was thinking about a cam in that general 'area'. What lobes did he spec, and what power band will that end up at. I assume it's advanced that much to move the PB lower?

I'm still trying to wrap my head around all this cam stuff.

When are you installing that cam? Looking forward to your results. :highfive:

-Chris

JonCR96Z
11-30-07, 11:18 PM
Here's what he wrote to me (keep in mind I will be doing AFR 205s and I got him to add his opinion on how nitrous would react to this cam, just in case I go that route):

"Jonathan,

Thank you so much for your cam order. Attached, please find the custom cam spec sheet for your CTS-V. While the two ton weight of the CTS-V poses some challenges of it's own, you have a solid foundation of parts to get the job done.

For your application, we will concentrate more on mid-range punch while keeping top-end strong. This will give you best ET and greatest chance of pulling away from an opponent when racing from a roll.

To do this, we need to close your intake valve at 44 degrees ABDC at .050" and keep your overlap at 10 degrees. The exhaust valve opening at 50 degrees BBDC is ideal for strong performance on motor and up to a 125 shot. Anything bigger and we will have to open the exhaust valve earlier (which will hurt mid-range torque on motor).

The intake lobe choice is the new Comp XFI 230 lobe. This packs more duration at .200" than XE-R lobes without going to excessive lift. Because of their quick action off the seat, the XE-R lobes were chosen for the exhaust. Don't be surprised if this cam measures 1-2 degrees larger after it's ground. This is pretty common with Comp roller cams. Please write back with any questions you may have."

On the spec sheet itself he specifies 6600 shift point. So I guess that means that he thinks it'll make power up to that. Dyno will have to confirm that.

I have to make sure I collect all the parts I need and either find somewhere to put it together or pray for a warm weekend. I'm gonna try to have it done sometime in January.

trukk
12-02-07, 11:10 PM
Here's what he wrote to me (keep in mind I will be doing AFR 205s and I got him to add his opinion on how nitrous would react to this cam, just in case I go that route):

"Jonathan,

Thank you so much for your cam order. Attached, please find the custom cam spec sheet for your CTS-V. While the two ton weight of the CTS-V poses some challenges of it's own, you have a solid foundation of parts to get the job done.

For your application, we will concentrate more on mid-range punch while keeping top-end strong. This will give you best ET and greatest chance of pulling away from an opponent when racing from a roll.

To do this, we need to close your intake valve at 44 degrees ABDC at .050" and keep your overlap at 10 degrees. The exhaust valve opening at 50 degrees BBDC is ideal for strong performance on motor and up to a 125 shot. Anything bigger and we will have to open the exhaust valve earlier (which will hurt mid-range torque on motor).

The intake lobe choice is the new Comp XFI 230 lobe. This packs more duration at .200" than XE-R lobes without going to excessive lift. Because of their quick action off the seat, the XE-R lobes were chosen for the exhaust. Don't be surprised if this cam measures 1-2 degrees larger after it's ground. This is pretty common with Comp roller cams. Please write back with any questions you may have."

On the spec sheet itself he specifies 6600 shift point. So I guess that means that he thinks it'll make power up to that. Dyno will have to confirm that.

I have to make sure I collect all the parts I need and either find somewhere to put it together or pray for a warm weekend. I'm gonna try to have it done sometime in January.


Thanks for the info. I'm definately going to get his opinion.

Do you have a parts list developed for the cam swap? I'm starting to put one together, and want to make sure I get everything I need. As you may have noticed, I don't mind spending. I want to get it done right the first time, and maximize my down time (i.e. get as much done as makes sense while the car is down.) I want to do an under drive pulley, and a new timing chain. I will also of course do springs, retainers and pushrods. I don;t think I'm going to mess with the rockers at this point, unless someone gives me different advice.

Thanks for the info.

-Chris

P.S. you need to bring that thing out to VIR!!!

JonCR96Z
12-03-07, 06:52 PM
I'm just gonna get everything new (except the underdrive pulley) even though I probably don't really need half of it. It's better to do it now than later. If you get a Pat G cam, and you deal with thunder racing, then they offer cam packages with all the valvetrain hardware and they have gasket kits for cam swaps. The only thing about reuseing the stock rockers is that they can fail, but you wouldn't have to get them right away as they're not that hard to change after the fact. If they were to go bad though, you're likely to be tearing the whole motor apart looking for all the needle bearings.

I'll be in Rockingham this weekend playing around on the bike, so I won't be at VIR. Gotta have my fix of going in a straight line since I can't do it in the V.

Jon

trukk
12-06-07, 01:00 PM
I got a custom spec from Patrick G.

Below is what he sent. Keep in mind that I had him spec this out for good power now, but to really take advantage of some AFR205, when I eventually switch over to them. Also my primary requirements was a good DD cam, with a touch of road race sprinkled in. With that in mind, this is not a max effort HP cam.




Attached, please find your custom camshaft recommendation for your CTS-V. This cam has the valve events you'll need to make big power under the curve with your stock heads while leaving room to grow into some aftermarket heads like AFR 205s in the future.

To pull your heavy car out of corners, we have put your intake valve closing point at 43 degrees ABDC at .050". This will give you good dynamic compression and enhance your mid-range. To allow you to pull nicely above your power peak of 6200-6300 rpm, we biased your overlap to the intake side of TDC. To work well with your high flow cats, we opened up the exhaust valve 2 degrees earlier than if we were running with no cats.

We have chosen the new Comp XFI lobes for the intake and XE-R lobes for the exhaust. With Patriot Extreme duals or PRC Platinum duals, you should get good spring life and will have the potential to rev to 7000 rpm. You will want to run a 7.425" pushrod. Please write back with any questions you may have.


Cam recommendation: (346 CTS-V cam, medium chop road race cam, stock 243 heads, Ported 90/90 intake, M12 6 speed, 13/4” headers with cats)
224/228 .609”/.588” 111LSA +0 advance
Comp Cams XFI/XE-R lobes
3015R/3724R HR111LSA +0 advance (111 installed intake centerline)
Static compression: 10.66:1, Dynamic compression with new cam: 8.27:1.
Recommended springs: Patriot Extreme duals.
Recommended pushrod length: 7.425” Assuming .054” head gasket and unmilled heads.



It will be interesting to see what this will do especially in relation to yours. I was expecting the duration to be a bit higher, however with the XFI lobes, it ramps up quick, without being crazy like the LSK lobes.

He also wrote in out e-mail conversation:



Don't be fooled by the 224 lobe. The XFI lobes pack a lot of area under the curve for their size and with 4 degrees of overlap, you'll have the power potential of larger duration cams with the stronger low end of small duration cams. This is exactly what you need in a road race cam in a heavy vehicle. This cam will be 15-20 rwhp better than most "big" cams in the 4500-5500 rpm range which is where the car spends soooo much time.

- You should get a solid 45-50 rwhp gain from the cam and around 25-30 rwtq. The mid-range torque will be fantastic.


Also should be medium lumpy according to him.

-Chris

JonCR96Z
12-06-07, 02:13 PM
Patrick made 475rwhp with a 223/227 .637/.639 110LSA. Of course that was with the AFRs. Although Dean400hp has the same cam only on a 114 lsa and dynoed 400rwhp.

trukk
12-06-07, 03:05 PM
Patrick made 475rwhp with a 223/227 .637/.639 110LSA. Of course that was with the AFRs. Although Dean400hp has the same cam only on a 114 lsa and dynoed 400rwhp.

Hmm, according to this post:
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum/86496-advise-heads.html#post827973

Dean has:

224/228 .637/.639 110LSA (+2)

Perhaps he has a different cam now. I'll PM him, and see if he'll come and chime in.

-Chris

JonCR96Z
12-06-07, 03:26 PM
Oh, you're right. Sorry Dean, guess I didn't read that PM.

He would probably benefit a lot from a Mamo-ported FAST.

NormV
12-07-07, 08:57 PM
I got a custom spec from Patrick G.

Below is what he sent. Keep in mind that I had him spec this out for good power now, but to really take advantage of some AFR205, when I eventually switch over to them. Also my primary requirements was a good DD cam, with a touch of road race sprinkled in. With that in mind, this is not a max effort HP cam.



It will be interesting to see
what this will do especially in relation to yours. I was expecting the duration to be a bit higher, however with the XFI lobes, it ramps up quick, without being crazy like the LSK lobes.

He also wrote in out e-mail conversation:



Also should be medium lumpy according to him.

-Chris

I am instructing at Daytona with the Audi Club and my student has an 04 Z06 with 230/236, not sure of the LSA but it has a real soft bottom. Especially off idle I almost stalled it a few times. The AC on it will stall from time to time. Probably just a tuning issue.

It is really soft down low through the mid range and just pulls through rev limiter at 6700 RPMs. My C5 with full exhaust/intake and torque mgt deleted feels more responsive to throttle movements up to 5K rpms.

Norm

BLK02WS6
12-08-07, 11:35 AM
Hey Chris, finally got signed up here and checked the specs... I would agree with don't underestimate the 224! Have seen them make lotsa power/torque under the curve, which is just what you need in a heavy boat... Don't have much experience with the new XFI lobe yet. I know that Patrick G knows his stuff and I would not second guess him cause he gets results... He will be specing the cam for my new engine if I end up doing it :devil: