: Procharger or Maggie



Naf
11-25-07, 05:44 AM
Here has one that has me curious...

We all know power adders like these KICK ass...There is almost no better way to increase power... Well there is increasin displacement, but that isnt the question of this discussion...

On a stock short block with ported heads and stock cam, which would be better...The root SC Maggie, with great off idle power and wonderful topend, or the light and nimble Procharger which sort of acts like a Turbo windin up as the rpm revs up givin the engine a break at idle?

I have seen plenty of Maggies, but i havent seen or heard of one guy in this forum runnin a Procharger...Except the beast 427 twin supercharged...

rlj5
11-25-07, 07:42 AM
Here has one that has me curious...

We all know power adders like these KICK ass...There is almost no better way to increase power... Well there is increasin displacement, but that isnt the question of this discussion...

On a stock short block with ported heads and stock cam, which would be better...The root SC Maggie, with great off idle power and wonderful topend, or the light and nimble Procharger which sort of acts like a Turbo windin up as the rpm revs up givin the engine a break at idle?

I have seen plenty of Maggies, but i havent seen or heard of one guy in this forum runnin a Procharger...Except the beast 427 twin supercharged...


I had epp install a procharger about a year ago and haven't had a single problem with it, and love the added power (dyno'd at 508 rwhp).
It's power curve begins at about 3500 and climbs all the way to redline.
Doesn't have the amazing power off Idle that the maggie does but I really think that is where we don't need it, We all have enough torque down low already to break things if we use it. I'm sure the maggie has more sap feel of power than the procharger does because of the low end torgue, But I really believe the power curve of the ProCharger is closer to what we really need.

pietroraimondi
11-25-07, 08:24 AM
Naf:

IMO if your considering a SC application; I for one would always opt for the any of the positive displacement type such as the eaton, roots, whipple etc.

The advantage of the positive type SC is that your not using HP to generate HP as you are with the centrifugal type due to parasitic loss.

The additional advantage of the maggie is it's built in intercooler in cooling the dense air charge entering the combustion chamber.

In addition, with the Magnuson SC your talking about 7 hours of installation time and probably twice that for the centrifugal.

I'll let you do the math, but for each pound of boost (dense air charge) entering the combustion chamber; your looking at a 7% increase in BHP.

In addition; for every 10 degrees in reduction of the dense air charge; you pick up an additional 1% increase in HP. So if you were to add a Snow water/alcohol injection system as well for less than $400, you can reduce the air temp by a much as 50 degrees which is equivalent to almost 1 pound of boost. This can potentially add as much as 25-30 additional HP with the standard Maggie.

Naf
11-25-07, 08:51 AM
Pete,

You are probably right but lets say i get an intercooler for the procharger as well...And running 5-6psi off of both...

Anything more than that will put me at a disadvantage...The Ambient temp is pretty hot most of the year, and i have seen cars with no mods catch on fire due to the heat...

My friend runs a maggie style set-up and i cant touch his car hood after he does a cruise...i installed an earth kit for him and almost burnt all my finger tips off...His Twin turbo car is almost the same...Are all force inducted engines super hot after runnin or is that just the case for my buddy here?

rlj5
11-25-07, 08:59 AM
Naf:

IMO if your considering a SC application; I for one would always opt for the any of the positive displacement type such as the eaton, roots, whipple etc.

The advantage of the positive type SC is that your not using HP to generate HP as you are with the centrifugal type due to parasitic loss.

The additional advantage of the maggie is it's built in intercooler in cooling the dense air charge entering the combustion chamber.

In addition, with the Magnuson SC your talking about 7 hours of installation time and probably twice that for the centrifugal.

I'll let you do the math, but for each pound of boost (dense air charge) entering the combustion chamber; your looking at a 7% increase in BHP.

In addition; for every 10 degrees in reduction of the dense air charge; you pick up an additional 1% increase in HP. So if you were to add a Snow water/alcohol injection system as well for less than $400, you can reduce the air temp by a much as 50 degrees which is equivalent to almost 1 pound of boost. This can potentially add as much as 25-30 additional HP with the standard Maggie.


The procharger has a front mounted intercooler, Much more efficient than the built in intercooler in the maggie.
And I have never heard anyone say that a supercharger of any kind has no parasitic loss. If it's driven by the engine with a belt it takes hp to drive it

Naf
11-25-07, 09:01 AM
The procharger has a front mounted intercooler, Much more efficient than the built in intercooler in the maggie.
And I have never heard anyone say that a supercharger of any kind has no parisitic loss. If it's driven by the engine with a belt it takes hp to drive it

The only none parasitic loss application is a Turbo...Though it also has its down sides as well...

pietroraimondi
11-25-07, 10:25 AM
Pete,

You are probably right but lets say i get an intercooler for the procharger as well...And running 5-6psi off of both...

Anything more than that will put me at a disadvantage...The Ambient temp is pretty hot most of the year, and i have seen cars with no mods catch on fire due to the heat...

My friend runs a maggie style set-up and i cant touch his car hood after he does a cruise...i installed an earth kit for him and almost burnt all my finger tips off...His Twin turbo car is almost the same...Are all force inducted engines super hot after runnin or is that just the case for my buddy here?

Hey Naf:

I'm not knocking the Procharger and it would be my first choice if the Magnuson was not available as a plug and play SC.

What I like about the Maggie are a couple of things. First is that it is a positive displacement SC and if you were to look at all OEM engines that are supercharged; they are all just about positive displacement.

The other thing about the Magnuson is the available 3 year/36000 mile powertrain warranty that they offer.

And granted; I stand corrected that all superchargers have parasitic loss, but the maggie uses about 1/3 of 1 HP at 60 mph and has much less parasitic loss than a conventional centrifugal supercharger.

In your part of the world in the middle east; high ambient heat temperature are always going to be an issue and perhaps a monster sized intercooler with a procharger centrifugal may help with the heat issues.

That is why I proposed considering the water/methanol injection system from Snow Performance http://www.snowperformance.net/products.php?p_cat=176 as stated below:

In gasoline engines, as with any intercooler, this suppresses detonation so more power producing boost and timing can be utilized. Water, with its high latent heat of vaporization cools the intake charge and combustion. Methanol cools the charge and combustion but also acts like an extremely high octane fuel (some researchers claim as high as 120 octane) as well as adding more oxygen to combustion

It really sounds like heat and detonation can be real concerns in your part of the globe describing how you almost lost your fingertips in just touching your buddies intake.

I'm sure the heat extractor hood will provide alot of benefit in removing some of that heat.:)

HP and boost can be addictive once you install a supercharger and I for one have always been of the thought to do it right the first time and would go with a forged top end if you see yourself running higher boost and if heat is really a huge issue.

In addition Naf; the Maggie produces what is purported as an additional 130 RWHP. You can very easily add an additional 100-120 RWHP and a lot of low end torque in a N/A form by installing:

1. A larger ported and polished 90mm TB
2 A ported Fast or TPIS Intake Plenum
3. Ported and polished Lingenfelter Show Room Stock GM Performance Cylinder Heads with 65cc combustion chamber.
4. LS1-GT11 cam.
5. Comp Cams Dual Valve Springs and Chromoly HD Pushrods

By going N/A; you can achieve about the same HP and Torque numbers of a SC running at 5-6 pounds of boost and take the heat factor right out of the equation.

Just a thought.

rlj5
11-25-07, 11:36 AM
The only none parasitic loss application is a Turbo...Though it also has its down sides as well...

Did months of research on the s/c before I decided on the procharger over the maggie. It just depends on what you want, As far as parasitic loss either one only uses a fraction of a hp in by pass usage (not in boost) , I still get 23 mpg @ 75 mph with the procharger. If your never going to build further & never going to need more boost then the magnacharger will work. Aren't going to get anymore boost since it's already running outa breath at 5500 rpm. I admit the low end torque is much better on the maggie ,But I don't need anymore low end torque. But I do see the high rpm hp & torque helping. And the front mounted intercooler does good job on intake temps although meth injection can always help. The D1sc procharger will give you more rwhp than the maggie, just is linier and increases with rpm.
Epp now has my v installing a forged 402 with afr 225 heads with meth injection ,ect. Raising the boost to 16 to 18 psi and adding a bigger intercooler, EPP is expecting 850+ rwhp. Had I gone with a maggie in the beginning I would have been also replacing the entire s/c system for a ProCharger since there isn't a roots or screw type for the V that will fit under the hood and will blow that psi to a 402.
Not by any means knocking the maggie a lotta guys here seem to have good luck and like it a lot, Just my observations from the original research when I was trying to decide, and having the procharger installed and using it for a year has done nothing but reinforce my findings.
Seems a lot of people have problems with the magnacharger, But since there aren't many prochargers out there to campare with, that isn't a fair comparison.
As far as cost, The magnacharger is something you can self install whereas the procharger is something you should have done by epp. Although if you take the new cost of the magnacharger and pay that , Then the ProCharger epp installed is a great deal

Black Sunshine
11-25-07, 12:45 PM
the Maggie produces what is purported as an additional 130 RWHP. You can very easily add an additional 100-120 RWHP and a lot of low end torque in a N/A form by installing:

1. A larger ported and polished 90mm TB
2 A ported Fast or TPIS Intake Plenum
3. Ported and polished Lingenfelter Show Room Stock GM Performance Cylinder Heads with 65cc combustion chamber.
4. LS1-GT11 cam.
5. Comp Cams Dual Valve Springs and Chromoly HD Pushrods

By going N/A; you can achieve about the same HP and Torque numbers of a SC running at 5-6 pounds of boost and take the heat factor right out of the equation.

What about taking the intake plenum outta your list and adding a ported maggie? Sounds like a beast.:lildevil:

Anyone willing to share info on their aftermarket blown cam profile?

Mystical_Ice
11-25-07, 01:13 PM
as far as i knew, all forced induction had parasitic loss to an extent.

even turbos - the exhaust gas is having to 'push' past the blades to spool the turbo. that may only reduce HP by a fraction, and obviously the gains far outweigh the disadvantages, but it's parasitic loss regardless.

am i right?

just wanted to throw in: I asked Zach from Motorsport Technologies (MTI) here in Houston (a very, very respected speed shop, who have had dozens of CTS-Vs go through their doors), and he said he'd suggest a maggie over a procharger, simply because with our cars we need the low end power (big, heavy cars), and high end isn't really a problem for us.

but i'm still not sure about it ;)

you should try both :p

pietroraimondi
11-25-07, 01:56 PM
Did months of research on the s/c before I decided on the procharger over the maggie. It just depends on what you want, As far as parasitic loss either one only uses a fraction of a hp in by pass usage (not in boost) , I still get 23 mpg @ 75 mph with the procharger. If your never going to build further & never going to need more boost then the magnacharger will work. Aren't going to get anymore boost since it's already running outa breath at 5500 rpm. I admit the low end torque is much better on the maggie ,But I don't need anymore low end torque. But I do see the high rpm hp & torque helping. And the front mounted intercooler does good job on intake temps although meth injection can always help. The D1sc procharger will give you more rwhp than the maggie, just is linier and increases with rpm.
Epp now has my v installing a forged 402 with afr 225 heads with meth injection ,ect. Raising the boost to 16 to 18 psi and adding a bigger intercooler, EPP is expecting 850+ rwhp. Had I gone with a maggie in the beginning I would have been also replacing the entire s/c system for a ProCharger since there isn't a roots or screw type for the V that will fit under the hood and will blow that psi to a 402.
Not by any means knocking the maggie a lotta guys here seem to have good luck and like it a lot, Just my observations from the original research when I was trying to decide, and having the procharger installed and using it for a year has done nothing but reinforce my findings.
Seems a lot of people have problems with the magnacharger, But since there aren't many prochargers out there to campare with, that isn't a fair comparison.
As far as cost, The magnacharger is something you can self install whereas the procharger is something you should have done by epp. Although if you take the new cost of the magnacharger and pay that , Then the ProCharger epp installed is a great deal

I do agree with that part 100%.

The upside of going with the centrifugal is that you can build your engine from the bottom up as your time and budget allows; and the benefit of the centrifugal is that as you build your engine with regard to a forged top and bottom; you can dial up the boost to some crazy numbers.

With regard to Maggie; aside from a pulley swap....your pretty much married to what she brings to the table from day one.

So by all means, if your intention is to later bore and resleeve the block and increase displacement with forged rods and pistons and a revised valve train geometry; the centrifugal is much more flexible in allowing you to grow.

Good point.

CTSV_Rob
11-25-07, 02:00 PM
Magnesson offers a couple of different super chargers for our cars and is about to come out with another. MP112 which about everyone on thet forum is running is meant for a stock motor. It will not put out much more then what a stock block can handle.

The MP122 has a little more power and if your modified I think it would be the way to go.
Now Magnesson (eaton) have developed a TVS design which is more efficient and will give you a cooler charge. They have put one of these on a Truck motor and have gotten numbers in the 750 HP range which is respectable. Said in the article they could have gotten better but the smallest pulley available was a 2.7 so it needed more gear reduction to increase the power.

Both have their advanages and I don't think you would be disappointed no matter which way you went.

BTW, why don't you eliminate the magnacharger and put in larger injectors?

pietroraimondi
11-25-07, 02:37 PM
Magnesson offers a couple of different super chargers for our cars and is about to come out with another. MP112 which about everyone on thet forum is running is meant for a stock motor. It will not put out much more then what a stock block can handle.

The MP122 has a little more power and if your modified I think it would be the way to go.
Now Magnesson (eaton) have developed a TVS design which is more efficient and will give you a cooler charge. They have put one of these on a Truck motor and have gotten numbers in the 750 HP range which is respectable. Said in the article they could have gotten better but the smallest pulley available was a 2.7 so it needed more gear reduction to increase the power.

Both have their advanages and I don't think you would be disappointed no matter which way you went.

BTW, why don't you eliminate the magnacharger and put in larger injectors?

Doing that Rob would do nothing but cause the car to run rich as you would have more fuel in the combustion chamber and not enough dense air.

When you think about it; HP is generated within the confines of the combustion chamber by two simple things; the introduction of dense air and fuel. The spark causes an explosion and we all know what goes on from there.

All a supercharger does is increases the amount of dense air being pumped into the combustion chamber. If you don't enough fuel being injected; you'll run lean. Too much fuel and you'll run rich.

In most all cases; the installation of a supercharger always calls for an increase in the size of the fuel injectors and usually a fuel booster pump.

As I mentioned; if you introduce a 1 pound of boost (dense air) into the combustion chamber; that 1 pound of dense air is equivalent to a 7% increase in FWHP.

The first generation if maggies were advertised as producing an added 130 HP which would be equivalent to approximately 5 pounds of boost.

IMO; 5 pounds of boost is about the limit that anyone should consider with a stock internal rotating assembly and cast pistons. Dialing up the boost on a high compression stock engine is really skating on thin ice IMO.

atdeneve
11-25-07, 02:51 PM
I was thinking he just meant to say throw out the magnavolt (not magnacharger) and get larger injectors, to eliminate any problems with the magnavolt.

Also, I thought most people with maggies are running around 7 psi of boost. Maybe that's with the 2.6, as opposed to the 2.8 that comes with the kit.

Jon
11-25-07, 02:58 PM
I am saving up for a Procharger in '09.

From what I understand, the Maggie makes more low end power. Something I do not need with a glass rear diff and wheel hop issues.

The roots blower whine is cool, but I don't know how long I'd be able to live with it. I've always had a thing for centrifugal blowers.

Mystical_Ice
11-25-07, 05:51 PM
well "low end power" can mean all the way through ~4000RPMs...

if anything, i'd agree that our cars need MORE low end power. low end power doesn't mean wheel hop. it means it pulls harder in the lower rpm range, something i would like, say, in 4th gear.

CTSVelocity
11-25-07, 05:58 PM
Here has one that has me curious...

We all know power adders like these KICK ass...There is almost no better way to increase power... Well there is increasin displacement, but that isnt the question of this discussion...

On a stock short block with ported heads and stock cam, which would be better...The root SC Maggie, with great off idle power and wonderful topend, or the light and nimble Procharger which sort of acts like a Turbo windin up as the rpm revs up givin the engine a break at idle?

I have seen plenty of Maggies, but i havent seen or heard of one guy in this forum runnin a Procharger...Except the beast 427 twin supercharged...

Each have thier pros and cons.

If you want to run high boost, dont run a roots. For the most part, they are all about high volume not particularly high boost. And since they are not a true internal compressor like a centrifugal or twin screw style blower, they are less efficient at higher boost levels. That is also a benefit as well since it is not compressing any air while cruising which draws less HP from the engine.

The CSC doesnt have the low end, but in my opinion that is a good thing considering the rear of the car. However, CSC's love to rev. so you might want to upgrade your valvetrain to be able to rev higher and utilize it at a greater potential.

If smog is a concern, the Eaton kit would be smog legal... I don't think the CSC kit would.

Living in Cali, if I was to go with FI I would get the Eaton kit... but in the end, I would just get a bigger cube motor for around the same cost as the supercharger kit. Matter of fact, I plan on doing that in next few months. A former member and local former V owner to me had an iron 408 in his V putting close to 500 to the wheels.... I went for a spin in it once, definately a fast car! He is selling the complete motor.

pietroraimondi
11-25-07, 06:03 PM
I was thinking he just meant to say throw out the magnavolt (not magnacharger) and get larger injectors, to eliminate any problems with the magnavolt.

Also, I thought most people with maggies are running around 7 psi of boost. Maybe that's with the 2.6, as opposed to the 2.8 that comes with the kit.

I'm estimating when I say 5 pounds of boost and in all reality; 5 to 7 with 6 is probably about the amount of boost that most people are running with their Maggie superchargers.

And the point I was making is that you're pretty much capped at that amount of boost and in a good way given that most people are bolting them up to a LS6 or LS2 with stock internals.

The advantage of the centrifugal SC is that you can dial up the boost to some "crazy numbers", but you need to be absolutely prepared to invest in a forged rototating assemby, forged top end, upgraded clutch assembly and cryo the rear; otherwise you'll gendade that engine at the very least

A few people that had the centrifugal installed by Exotic Performance learned that lesson the hard way when dialing up the boost on a bone stock LS6 or LS2.

One of the nicest set-up's that I have ever seen is the twin pro-charger supercharger platform on the CTSV build that was done by Predator Performance in Pennsylvania.

That V is putting down 806 HP on pump gas with great street manners and driveability and with higher octane racing fuel over 1000 HP.

<LI class=style10>
427 CID 7.0 LITER C5R RACE BLOCK

806 HORSEPOWER @ 6400 RPM

756 LB / FT TORQUE @ 5100 RPM

AFR CNC HEADS W/ FAST INTAKE MANIFOLD

JE PISTONS W/ LUNATI RODS

COMP CAM HYDRAULIC ROLLER

TWIN P-1SC PROCHARGERS

CUSTOM FABRICATED INTERCOOLER

CUSTOM FABRICATED TWO PASS RADIATOR

DIFFERENTIAL AND TRANSMISSION GEARS TREATED BY ROCKLAND STANDARD GEAR CO.

CUSTOM DIFFERENTIAL, TRANSMISSION, AND SUPPLEMENTAL ENGINE COOLERS

GRAND AM FENDER FLARES, REAR SPOILER,
AND HEAT EXTRACTOR HOOD FROM
SPECTER WORKS

HRE 19 X 10.5 WHEELS

285/35ZR19 AND 305/30ZR19 MICHELIN TIRES

BREMBO GOLD SERIES 8 PISTON CALIPERS W/ 15 INCH ROTORS UP FRONT AND 4 PISTON 14.5 INCH ROTORS IN REAR

Black Sunshine
11-25-07, 09:11 PM
Very impressive build. Looks well thought out.

I've been hanging around racing big cars for a while now. The V weighs 300 lbs less than my SS. The V weighed in at 4100 lbs at Atlanta Dragway this month (Super Heavy Shootout www.sshs7.com (http://www.sshs7.com) Man please! Y'all missed a show!).

If you're racing V's in a straight line the first thing ya gotta do is work on your 60'. Period. No discussion. Get your 60's down in the 1.4-1.5 range in a V and you're doin sumpin.

Gears. In the tranny and the rear. Nothing like running racing gears and an "overdrive" 6th (1800 RPM) for the highway with 4.56's in the rear. Wonder what's the most agressive anyone's gotten with the V rear or that aftermarket rear? Or anyone try a "street use" 1st gear and a racing 2nd (used as first)? I'm new to the 6 Speed.

Then horsepower. I'm gonna run a maggie (I like the "grind") until I'm bored then we'll put turbos on it with an engine rebuild. Just like I've been thru with my Impala with the exception that the Impy maggie was a one-off. She made 600 RWHP & 720 RWTQ turboed and ran for 60K before I turned the boost up and burnt a piston.
Turbos? Hell, they're the reason I bought the V (had ta have sumpin to drive) and nothing like layin rubber at 100 MPH.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v448/boilrmkr/Smileys/devil09.gif

You put that package together and you've got a reliable, pump gas 10 second street car.

stkshkr
11-25-07, 09:40 PM
Gene,
We'll all be waiting to see that 10 sec V, you $ure make it $ound ea$y.
Gene
05 V 346 maggie also a 11 second daily driver

Black Sunshine
11-25-07, 09:49 PM
Racing? Ain't nuttin but bout da money, YO! (love watching the "negotiations" in the 7-8 staging lanes at ATCO on Saturdays. almost don't need to see the race)

It just comes down to how much of that and time ya got. Dontcha agree?
Those sponsor logos magnetic? Love the stance of your car on the launch. QA1's? Sway bar(s) disconnected? Tires? Dare I ask, stock rear/gears?

I don't have much time and most of the mod fund is earmarked for the resurrection of Black Sunshine in the Spring. So I splurged on some bolt ons for the V before the Daaarkness goes under the knife.

stkshkr
11-26-07, 12:33 AM
Yep it's all about the buck$
They're magnetic. 90/10 drag shocks (QA1), 3rd gen vette rear w/4:10 gears, 245/40/18 and 265/40/18 DR's

Naf
11-26-07, 02:14 AM
This has turned out to be a very informative thread, too bad no one hit my fuel system thread...

As it turns out, i understand the Maggie is good from idle right up to 4000rpm. The procharger is great from 3500 right up to redline...

Idealy if i put a maggie and also slap on a pair of turbos i will have power from idle right up to redline. HEHEHEHE...Now i have seen a setup like that on an US army truck. I almost liberated it for "research purposes"...Imagine the possibilities, and the amount of heat that would need coolin...OMG i would need a huge Radiator, an oil cooler for the maggie, and another for the engine oil...And since i have the those i will end up gettin one for the tranny and the diff...I am seein the weight just sky rocket here...But this is an easy way to score more than 800hp at the wheel with no issue of starvation on air...Just fuel...

I would like to thank you all for your wisdom and dedication to your passions.

I have weighed out the pros and cons and feel the best way for me is to stay NA. If i was in a cooler climate, or place with more humidity i would surely go for a Force induced setup. It wouldnt be fair for the engine to work so hard and not be comfortable with the heat...blown rings arent cheap to repair...We all end up puttin in a stroker kit and other bright ideas in...

Again, thank you for your time

stkshkr
11-26-07, 03:22 AM
Just so you know the Maggie produces good HP and Torque to above 6500RPM, old chart but you get the idea.

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/11/32902210866.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=7167980)

CTSV_Rob
11-26-07, 03:55 AM
Pretty impressive torque curve, I don't understand what people mean by the upper torque isn't there. You have a little drop off but very flat curve though Still making HP right to the end though, nice.

pietroraimondi
11-26-07, 04:03 AM
Just so you know the Maggie produces good HP and Torque to above 6500RPM, old chart but you get the idea.

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/11/32902210866.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=7167980)

Forget the top end Max HP Rating on the Maggie....what you gotta love is that low end torque at 2000-3500 RPM's.

That is pure neck pinned against the back of the headrest redneck brute torque!

What's even more exciting is to have an unsuspecting passenger with you as you accelerate from the stoplight and 200 yards down the road having to pull over so they can go change their shorts

NormV
11-26-07, 11:35 AM
If you want to make extra power you got to remember where you'll be spending most of your time if you drag race, road course, or just want something extra for the street; if you shift at 6500 RPMs the engine speed will drop to ~4500 RPMs with stock V gearing. After 1st gear you will not be using the engine below 4000 RPMs, so pick appropriate power adder.

If you have shorter gears/tires you'll be spending more time in the upper RPMs where a centrifugal will be more efficient and charge temps will be less than a roots style blower.

Marc's car with stock motor right down to stock headers(maybe Corsa) on a Mustang dyno which reads lower than a dynojet dyno.



http://www.exoticperformanceplus.com/projectCar.php?car=33

Thread to the build up:

http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=381579&page=3

Norm

P.S. Loved to see if the new ZR-1 setup would be applicable to our LS motors-Laminova intercooler, manufacturer backed...

Black Sunshine
11-26-07, 12:21 PM
Intercoolers. That brings to mind another question.

The maggie intercooler looks to me to be a "minimal" build. Anyone making larger units for our application?

trukk
11-26-07, 12:53 PM
Who's going to be the first to throw a Kenne Bell on their V?

Twin screw, sc. Supposed to have the low end of a roots, and high end of a snail.

http://www.kennebell.net/superchargers/gm/Corvette/gmCorvette.htm


-Chris

onebadcad
11-26-07, 02:35 PM
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u150/onebadcad/05_CTSV_nonmeth.jpg

550 RWTQ will get you rolling burnouts in second gear, and will also get you a membership into "The Broken Heart/Diff Club."
My motor pulls to about 6,100-6,200rpm, but is built to handle 6,800-7,000rpm.
I will always defend the Maggie, but if you want mad power/boost the ProCharger or KB or TT is the route to go. My Maggie was on my stock motor at 15,000 miles, but would not have been my choice if I had swapped the motor before the power adder.
KB is available for LSx applications, but I have only seen on LS6 C5s, and their Tech Dept did not reply to numerous messages of mine.
MP 122 works with the LS2, so I am sure will work on LS6-not sure of the RWHP or boost, but have seen 12psi on an LS2 with Meth Kit; LS2 is 10.9:1 and LS6 is 10.5:1.

P.S. The graph is from a Superflow SF-840 dual eddy current load bearing dyno.

onebadcad
11-26-07, 02:37 PM
Who's going to be the first to throw a Kenne Bell on their V?

Twin screw, sc. Supposed to have the low end of a roots, and high end of a snail.

http://www.kennebell.net/superchargers/gm/Corvette/gmCorvette.htm


-Chris

I will not be 'first', as too damn expensive.

trukk
11-26-07, 03:22 PM
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u150/onebadcad/05_CTSV_nonmeth.jpg

550 RWTQ will get you rolling burnouts in second gear, and will also get you a membership into "The Broken Heart/Diff Club."
My motor pulls to about 6,100-6,200rpm, but is built to handle 6,800-7,000rpm.
I will always defend the Maggie, but if you want mad power/boost the ProCharger or KB or TT is the route to go. My Maggie was on my stock motor at 15,000 miles, but would not have been my choice if I had swapped the motor before the power adder.
KB is available for LSx applications, but I have only seen on LS6 C5s, and their Tech Dept did not reply to numerous messages of mine.
MP 122 works with the LS2, so I am sure will work on LS6-not sure of the RWHP or boost, but have seen 12psi on an LS2 with Meth Kit; LS2 is 10.9:1 and LS6 is 10.5:1.

P.S. The graph is from a Superflow SF-840 dual eddy current load bearing dyno.

1BC,

What are you non dynojet corrected numbers? You have a graph handy of that?

That TQ curve is very impressive. I can't beleive you haven't bent the car yet. It must be a BLAST to drive.

-Chris

onebadcad
11-26-07, 03:52 PM
Here is the Dyno my tech uses:

http://www.superflow.com/dynamometers/index_833.cfm

I think these are the corrected numbers using load bearing-I may be wrong.
The TQ is wicked, gone sideways more times than I wish to recall, cut a 1.8X 60' when I blew the diff; a better driver would easily get 1.7X. I am convinced the driveshaft is a little warped, and have broken the large screw which holds the diff in place three times; I now have an aircraft quality bolt down there, as the Caddy OE is a .02 POS. Rear tires only last about 5,000 miles, so it does have a downside.

RunningOnEMT
11-26-07, 04:00 PM
after reading this thread i have not only decided that i want a procharger installed and tuned by EPP when my warranty is out....

but i have also decided that pietroraimondi only likes to hear himself talk (type) and loves to sound smart... emphasis on sound

trukk
11-26-07, 05:15 PM
Here is the Dyno my tech uses:

http://www.superflow.com/dynamometers/index_833.cfm

I think these are the corrected numbers using load bearing-I may be wrong.
The TQ is wicked, gone sideways more times than I wish to recall, cut a 1.8X 60' when I blew the diff; a better driver would easily get 1.7X. I am convinced the driveshaft is a little warped, and have broken the large screw which holds the diff in place three times; I now have an aircraft quality bolt down there, as the Caddy OE is a .02 POS. Rear tires only last about 5,000 miles, so it does have a downside.


In regards to the Superflow, I've had my car dyno'd on two Mustangs, and one Superflow. Both are eddy-current/load bearing, and usually show lower numbers than a DynoJet. Your graph however is showing the DynoJet corrected numbers (see the DJWhPw / DJWhTq in the graph, which stands for DynoJet corrected). The software viewer ( http://www.superflow.com/data/resources/DataView.exe ) lets you choose how the graph is calculated. Their viewer is a fun little program to play around with. You should check w/ your tuner and see if you can get your dyno results file, to load up in the viewer.

As an example my SAE numbers vs. DJ corrected numbers, before my header install were:

SAEPwr: 358.9 CHp @6265 RPM
DJWhPw: 394.7 CHp @6265 RPM

SAETrq: 343.8 Clb-ft @4941 RPM
DJWhTq: 378.2 Clb-ft @4941 RPM


http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum/85505-highest-dyno-numbers-w-stock-cam.html#post880663

REgardless of what calculation is used on your graph though. VERY IMPRESSIVE NUMBERS! What's even crazier, is that the V isn;t even your Hi-Po car. YIKES!

-Chris

pietroraimondi
11-27-07, 01:16 AM
Both the Maggie and the Pro-Charger have there unique benefits. I would opt for the Pro-charger set-up if I in fact had any intentions to install a forged rotating assembly and dial up the boost for all drag competition. The only limits with the Pro-Charger is the engines ability to handle whatever boost you throw at it and the strength of the drivetrain.

The Maggie is a much more "plug and play" system that gives incredible torque numbers under the curve and you can't beat the optional 3 year'36,000 mile optional power train warranty.

Both system have their pro's and cons based on your own personal application, IMO

pietroraimondi
11-27-07, 01:28 AM
after reading this thread i have not only decided that i want a procharger installed and tuned by EPP when my warranty is out....

but i have also decided that pietroraimondi only likes to hear himself talk (type) and loves to sound smart... emphasis on sound

Where is it that I said the Maggie or Centrifugal were bad superchargers for the V. I simply exercised my individual opinion to express what I thought were the pro's and con's of both SC systems. I think my posts are laced with comments on the overwhelming benefits of both systems.

Just as you exercised your option to suggest that I only like to hear my self talk; why is it that you have to wait for your warranty to expire to "walk your talk" and install what you say that your going to do?

A real man wouldn't talk like a school kid about what he's going to do when he grows up in four years and his warranty expires. A real man would open his wallet right now and install the damn think now; otherwise all your doing is talking, talking, talking about what your going to do 4 years from now!:thehand:

And don't give me that it's not in the budget right now. If your going to drive a high performace car and run with the big dogs; you need to get off the porch and off your wallet.:crybaby:

C'mon be a big boy and not a 20 something kid, call Exotic Performance and schedule your install.

Make sure you opt for the forged internals and dial up the mad boost as that is what the centrifugals are great for....all out ass-busting performance.

Black Sunshine
11-27-07, 11:04 AM
OT, can we have just one informative thread without it devolving into personal attacks (and ensuing rebuttals)?

BOT, has anyone had their maggie ported before installing it on their V?

RunningOnEMT
11-27-07, 11:18 AM
Where is it that I said the Maggie or Centrifugal were bad superchargers for the V. I simply exercised my individual opinion to express what I thought were the pro's and con's of both SC systems. I think my posts are laced with comments on the overwhelming benefits of both systems.

Just as you exercised your option to suggest that I only like to hear my self talk; why is it that you have to wait for your warranty to expire to "walk your talk" and install what you say that your going to do?

A real man wouldn't talk like a school kid about what he's going to do when he grows up in four years and his warranty expires. A real man would open his wallet right now and install the damn think now; otherwise all your doing is talking, talking, talking about what your going to do 4 years from now!:thehand:

And don't give me that it's not in the budget right now. If your going to drive a high performace car and run with the big dogs; you need to get off the porch and off your wallet.:crybaby:

C'mon be a big boy and not a 20 something kid, call Exotic Performance and schedule your install.

Make sure you opt for the forged internals and dial up the mad boost as that is what the centrifugals are great for....all out ass-busting performance.


edited for the sake of the population


oh and if i wanted to i could put a procharger on tomorrow, its not that, i kinda like my warranty thats all, nothing about not walking the walk while talking the talk i have another toy to play with right now.

onebadcad
11-27-07, 02:30 PM
OT, can we have just one informative thread without it devolving into personal attacks (and ensuing rebuttals)?

BOT, has anyone had their maggie ported before installing it on their V?

BS,
I posted in another thread that I talked to Steigmeier and they doubted they could do anything for me. I know they get 25-35RWHP on the Whipple SCs, but they said the Maggie unit would not benefit.

onebadcad
11-27-07, 02:54 PM
Maggie vs. ProCharger is not complicated. Here's how you chose:

MAGGIE
1) For stock motors
2) Close to 500RWHP with a cam
3) Boost is about 8psi max
4) Power through band to 6,000RPM (my LS6 dyno)


PROCHARGER
1) For built motors
2) Power to 650+RWHP
3) Boost up to 16psi and then some
4) Power through 6,200-6,300RPM

IMO, the Maggie is awesome for the stock LS6/LS2, no bigger bang for the buck.

Here is my C6 Dyno, mods are in signature, boost is 5.5psi with 4.63" pulley.
Power is impressive once past 3,000 in 1st gear and no loss in others as you shift into band.

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u150/onebadcad/05_C6_DS_PC_new.jpg

pietroraimondi
11-27-07, 04:57 PM
after reading this thread i have not only decided that i want a procharger installed and tuned by EPP when my warranty is out....

but i have also decided that pietroraimondi only likes to hear himself talk (type) and loves to sound smart... emphasis on sound

Personal verbal attacks are completely unneccessary, unwarranted and off topic. This thread began and continued with forum member opinions on what were the pro's and con's of both supercharger systems for the CTSV based on member opinions and personal experience. There was no need to attack someone that you do not know; nor anyone for that matter. It really is juvenile and I am guilty of the same behavior for rebutting your unwarranted personal statement.


OT, can we have just one informative thread without it devolving into personal attacks (and ensuing rebuttals)?

BOT, has anyone had their maggie ported before installing it on their V?

Well put Gene; these forum posts are reserved for intelligent conversation and not personal banter.

OT; I don't know of anyone that has ported their Maggie before installing it, but I would imagine that porting it and then port matching it to the cylinder heads would increase the density of AFR and a corresponding increase in BHP. Kind of an expensive way to go given that you would have to port match it to the cylinder heads for the Maggie porting to be real effective. The cheaper alternative has been the Maggie pulley swap to increase the density of the air charge.



edited for the sake of the population
oh and if i wanted to i could put a procharger on tomorrow, its not that, i kinda like my warranty thats all, nothing about not walking the walk while talking the talk i have another toy to play with right now.

Best of luck to you with your modifications. Let's keep things on topic and leave the personal attacks and rebuttals out of the forum.

There is alot to be said to having the safety net of the factory warranty; however there are some mods that you can do that will not compromise your warranty. I am in Baltimore and you are not far away in DC. I can share with you from personal experience that Lindsay Cadillac in Fairfax, Va. is very performance mod friendly when it comes to honoring warranty work on V's that have superchargers and they have replaced many rear differentials under warranty with the Maggie installed. You may want to even check with them about doing the install. Again they are very mod friendly with regard to warranty work as evidenced by the many GM Racing and UUC products sold by Luke at Lindsay Cadillac for the CTSV.


Maggie vs. ProCharger is not complicated. Here's how you chose:

MAGGIE
1) For stock motors
2) Close to 500RWHP with a cam
3) Boost is about 8psi max
4) Power through band to 6,000RPM (my LS6 dyno)


PROCHARGER
1) For built motors
2) Power to 650+RWHP
3) Boost up to 16psi and then some
4) Power through 6,200-6,300RPM

IMO, the Maggie is awesome for the stock LS6/LS2, no bigger bang for the buck.

Here is my C6 Dyno, mods are in signature, boost is 5.5psi with 4.63" pulley.
Power is impressive once past 3,000 in 1st gear and no loss in others as you shift into band.

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u150/onebadcad/05_C6_DS_PC_new.jpg

Very well stated and again it shows the pro's and con's of both SC systems based on an engine in stock internal dress and one that has been built or stroked with a forged rotating assembly.

Black Sunshine
11-27-07, 05:28 PM
I like getting the best bang for the buck WHILE building "gorilla" to be sure things hold together during everyday use.

On the pulleys, what size is "standard" and what other sizes have folks used? Heard somewhere sumpin about modifying the nose to accomadate a pully? A friend makes pulleys for Maggies. Maybe he has some on the shelf that will help here.

Not too much talk about cams. Can't find anyone posting up their specs for a maggie/stock set up. Anyone? Another friend LOVES doing cam design and playing with GENVII and FAST programming. Gonna give him a call and see what he suggests.

With a cam comes rockers/springs/retainers/pushrods. What's the stock rocker spec? Anyone go taller?

stkshkr
11-27-07, 08:46 PM
1.7 is stock.
Most Maggie owners have a stock cam which works very well.
I am looking at blower cams right now for my EPP 382 rebuild. Any body want to share specs?

Fire and Ice
11-28-07, 01:17 PM
Here has one that has me curious...

We all know power adders like these KICK ass...There is almost no better way to increase power... Well there is increasin displacement, but that isnt the question of this discussion...

On a stock short block with ported heads and stock cam, which would be better...The root SC Maggie, with great off idle power and wonderful topend, or the light and nimble Procharger which sort of acts like a Turbo windin up as the rpm revs up givin the engine a break at idle?

I have seen plenty of Maggies, but i havent seen or heard of one guy in this forum runnin a Procharger...Except the beast 427 twin supercharged...

Although I haven't run a Procharger on a Cadillac (yet) I did have one on my older Mustang and let me tell you, after winning the Horsepower Shootout for 5 years straight, Procharger has my vote. Tons and tons of power, reliable, AIR to AIR intercooled (big key here) and easy to install. The only thing you might not like is they make a lot of noise, especially at idle. I personally loved the whine as it usually got a lot of bizarre looks and even made a few jaws drop. Let's em know you mean business :thumbsup:

I personally think the roots style blowers are too limited in the intercooling department and if you push them hard, the heat will kill you (or your motor.) Just my opinion though.

C

Black Sunshine
11-29-07, 08:16 AM
Intercoolers. That brings to mind another question.

The maggie intercooler looks to me to be a "minimal" build. Anyone making larger units for our application?

Anyone?

SuperV_Rob
11-29-07, 09:07 AM
All I can add is WOW :thumbsup: This issue has been on my mind for both my V and my SSR; given the details on this thread I finally have a good direction for both. Many Thanks to all that have posted. My Best, Rob