: Cryogenics



AJxtcman
11-23-07, 07:43 AM
CryO2 Systems

The CryO2 System is a revolutionary and award-wining performance product designed to reduce the air intake temperatures in the air/fuel charge. The result is a power creating alternative that is safer and cheaper to refill than nitrous.
Through the science of aerodynamics and cryogenics, DEI has developed a system that harnesses the cryogenic properties of liquid Co2 to lower the air/fuel intake charge by up to 60%. The best part is that it is completely safe and unlike nitrous, CryO2 does not inject anything into your motor!

We all know that the Northstar wants cold air.

http://www.designengineering.com/images/products/Intake%20with%20box300.jpg

CryO2 Cryogenic Air Intake

The CryO2 Air Intake segments mount right in the air stream using silicone sleeves. They consists of an aerodynamically designed bulb with a cryogenic chamber which is mounted in a 4" segment of air tube.

Product Description
The CryO2 Air Intake consists of an aerodynamically designed bulb with a cryogenic chamber which is mounted in a 4" segment of air tube. The air passes over the bulb, heat is removed from the air charge resulting in a colder, denser, more powerful charge. Dyno testing showed a reduction in intake air temperature of more than 50 degrees. The CryO2 Air Intake can be used on turbocharged, supercharged or naturally aspirated applications. Multiple units can be used for colder results. Installs in minutes and comes with silicone connection sleeve, hose clamps and connection / vent hose.

http://www.designengineering.com/images/photogallery/732_sized.jpg

http://www.designengineering.com/images/photogallery/52_sized.jpg

Submariner409
11-23-07, 11:04 AM
Operates exactly the same as using the shop CO2 extinguisher to cool a 6-pack in a bucket. Expanding CO2 is cold, so the little bulb in the airstream gets frosty.

Who's gonna do the first N* dyno runs, before and after ??

med
11-23-07, 01:16 PM
"lower the air/fuel intake charge by up to 60%":confused:

How in the hell does it do that? That much reduction just by colder (i.e., denser) air alone?:bighead: I guess I need to be enlightened.:bouncy:

AJxtcman
11-23-07, 04:24 PM
http://www.designengineering.com/products.asp?m=sp&pid=4

37724

Ranger
11-23-07, 05:57 PM
How does the IAT sensor figure into this equation? Isn't it going to richen the fuel mixture?

WoodShoe
11-23-07, 06:00 PM
what kind of HP numbers do they expect out of this thing?

med
11-23-07, 06:05 PM
http://www.designengineering.com/products.asp?m=sp&pid=4

37724

Thanks. I see how it would help out with serious boosted applications. Maybe some blown 4.4L V people would be interested in this.

AJxtcman
11-23-07, 08:37 PM
I am working on a cleaned up 99 intake. Externally cleaned up. I am looking at installing the bulb in the intake just behind the EGR plate.

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Fiero/1-2.gif
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Fiero/2-1.gif
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Fiero/2007-08-05_intake_manifold__fuel_ra.jpg

msta293412
11-23-07, 08:38 PM
Whats the price....I need MORE details?.....

AJxtcman
11-23-07, 09:06 PM
Whats the price....I need MORE details?.....

Remember this is a lot safer than N O S


http://www.designengineering.com/images/products/thumbs/Intake%20with%20box150.jpg
PART # DESCRIPTION MSRP
080110 CryO2 Air Intake - 3" O.D $156.00
080111 CryO2 Air Intake - 2 1/2" O.D. $156.00
080119 CryO2 Air Intake Bulb (Bulb & Legs Only) $129.33


http://www.designengineering.com/images/products/Cry02_TankInstallKit_Web_30.jpg
PART # DESCRIPTION MSRP
080100 Tank and Installation Kit (5 lb Tank) $373.33
080101 CryO2 Spare Tank (5 lb) $193.33
080102 Tank and Installation Kit (10 lb Tank) $393.33
080103 CryO2 Spare Tank (10lb Tank) $213.33
080105 CryO2 Installation Kit 10lb (NO TANK) $252.41
080106 CryO2 Installation Kit 5lb (NO TANK) $252.41
080108 CryO2 Kit 10lb Tank & 16" x 5" Sprayer $489.95

med
11-23-07, 10:32 PM
AJ:

How cold can the intake get for the N*? I thought people were getting good times with temps under 80 deg F. Is there an optimal intake temp? I have to hand it to you - that motor looks nice with the "redhead" cam covers. Are those the heads from last week that you purchased? Damn your fast...Nice drawings/picks too of the "legs". Hell, I could bring you some liquid nitrogen (-196 deg C) but I think carbon dioxide is safer (-78 deg C). Blown with the LS-1 PCM + cryo = pure insanity. I'm gonna lose my job if I keep on reading this forum. Isn't there plenty of room to wrap a long coil of tubing throughout that intake's runners from one end to the other like a reverse condenser? Keep up the good work!

eldorado1
11-23-07, 11:27 PM
Using their data of 50 degree F temperature reduction and this graph:

http://www.ce.utexas.edu/prof/kinnas/319LAB/Book/CH1/PROPS/densgif.html

You go from 1.18 kg/m^3 to 1.3kg/m^3 (assuming 70F ambient)

That is a 10% gain in density, which would give a 300hp northstar an extra 30hp with an addition of fuel.

AJxtcman
11-24-07, 10:55 AM
AJ:

How cold can the intake get for the N*? I thought people were getting good times with temps under 80 deg F. Is there an optimal intake temp? I have to hand it to you - that motor looks nice with the "redhead" cam covers. Are those the heads from last week that you purchased? Damn your fast...Nice drawings/picks too of the "legs". Hell, I could bring you some liquid nitrogen (-196 deg C) but I think carbon dioxide is safer (-78 deg C). Blown with the LS-1 PCM + cryo = pure insanity. I'm gonna lose my job if I keep on reading this forum. Isn't there plenty of room to wrap a long coil of tubing throughout that intake's runners from one end to the other like a reverse condenser? Keep up the good work!

Thats not my intake. I borrowed the picture from a guy on the Fiero forum.
My intake is well on it's way. I need to go back and cut out some more for the bulb.

This is the Fiero that the Northstar is going in.
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/2002-05_GT40_rebody.jpg

AJxtcman
11-28-07, 06:44 PM
:bump:

msta293412
11-29-07, 08:35 AM
keep this going!....

AJxtcman
11-29-07, 12:03 PM
I am thinking of running it off my AC :yup:
I have to make up lines anyway. I can just Tee in.

med
11-29-07, 02:09 PM
I am thinking of running it off my AC :yup:
I have to make up lines anyway. I can just Tee in.

AJ - That's an interesting idea. At least it would keep the intake air temp fairly constant versus just outside air (almost like climate control for the intake of the motor). A beefed up climate control system sharing cabin with motor intake might be ideal:suspense:. Do you need the intake on the low side of the AC:hmm: to plumb in that bulb? Otherwise, just suck cold air off a beefed up evaporator core inside the climate control unit. It seems like someone should have used this idea in luxury sport cars a long time ago. Obviously too much cooling will put too much load on the compressor which in turn will knock off any gains from the motor - but there must be a good "sweet spot" in there somewhere. Has anyone found the best ambient temp at the drag/track where the N* works best (maybe 68 deg or something). Keeping intake temp constant would eliminate one more variable in tuning for optimal performance across RPM range.

Shaggy
11-30-07, 04:53 AM
That bulb in the intake looks like it would block a fair bit of air.

AJxtcman
11-30-07, 07:09 AM
That bulb in the intake looks like it would block a fair bit of air.

I know:shhh:

I think it is a horse a piece. :hmm:

If I don't do a bulb I could?

MED sujested a evap core or a coil tube. It would be similar to a Vortex Tube, but using refridgerent and an orfice. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1d/Tube_de_Ranque-Hilsch.png/300px-Tube_de_Ranque-Hilsch.png

Submariner409
11-30-07, 09:43 AM
The A/C cooling idea is interesting, but has a couple of bugs: R134 is not as good a heat transfer refrigerant as R12 or R22, so you would need a sizeable evaporator to cool any significant amount of air. ....and, the faster the airflow, the less chance the air has to transfer heat to the evaporator. (same principle dictates that high coolant flow rates do not transfer engine heat well...)

You are looking at gaining a few HP in the upper RPM band by cooling air BUT with an attached compressor that, itself, eats horsepower. Not to mention that WOT operation defaults the A/C compressor OFF until the throttle is partially closed and engine RPM comes down. Conversely, there is absolutely no need to cool intake air at anything other than maximum HP demand events.

If the CO2 system expansion bulb is properly designed it will not significantly block airflow in the N* intake system which is already way larger, in CFM capability, than the engine needs. And the system doesn't require mechanical power to sustain the cooling......

med
11-30-07, 12:58 PM
We can increase the insanity by using a Peltier effect. They work at 12V and are instaneous, stackable, and parasitic on the alternator. They are available as 2" squares (3/16" thickness) for around 20 bucks. Original idea was for in the trunk cooler of car/boat but it flopped.

http://www.sciplus.com/singleItem.cfm/terms/9596/cartLogFrom/Search

Wikipedia def'n:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peltier-Seebeck_effect

I am definitely going insane thinking up this stuff and need to get back to work. :bonkers:

Submariner409
11-30-07, 01:08 PM
Actually, Igloo makes a couple of 12V Peltier cooler/warmers with heavy insulation. I use one or the other (36 or 48 quart size-wise) in our boat, but they EAT a deep cycle battery due to their constant 5 amp draw. More insanity !!!

eldorado1
11-30-07, 01:47 PM
We can increase the insanity by using a Peltier effect. They work at 12V and are instaneous, stackable, and parasitic on the alternator. They are available as 2" squares (3/16" thickness) for around 20 bucks.

Now calculate how many joules/sec will be required to cool down 400 cubic feet per minute 50 degrees F.

I'd take a guess and say 4000 amps @ 14V.

msta293412
11-30-07, 03:14 PM
I thought the cryogenics system came universal and ready to install on any car?....Whats all this hypothetical mumbo jumbo?...I got the cost from AJ, but what is the actual expected HP gain?.......I mean it is a bolt on mod, correct?.....

Submariner409
11-30-07, 04:18 PM
msta, It is bolt on, and ready for any car. The mumbo-jumbo is tongue-in-cheek bantering over another snake oil advertising campaign.

????? Look......You have this hollow teardrop in the center of a 4" airstream. You hit WOT and flip the chill button. The teardrop quickly gets flat COLD, way below 0, from expanding CO2. Explain how the airstream which lies greater than, say, 1/4" from the surface of the teardrop gets cooled. Explain how the system would control ice flakes from forming with the pressure drop in humid air. Does your engine like to ingest ice flakes, or for that matter, chunks ?

Think about it. What do Arctic explorers look like after blowing humid air through their mustaches all day in -25 weather ????

Maybe a bit extreme, but entirely possible......the "cryogenic" moniker is parallel to "billet"......twisted hype. FYI, Joe Mondello has been cryogenically freezing Olds 455 cylinder heads for years......in liquid nitrogen, one h... of a lot colder than gaseous CO2.

med
11-30-07, 07:55 PM
Now calculate how many joules/sec will be required to cool down 400 cubic feet per minute 50 degrees F.

I'd take a guess and say 4000 amps @ 14V.

I come up with 5446 (min) to 6216 (max) J/s (or Watts). At 14 volts you're looking at 389 to 444 amps. I agree that's alot and I'm not trying to offend. Cool it 10 deg F and it gets reasonable.<-- Who cares! and sorry to be misleading about Peltier effect- I agree with sub on this one. I want to throw ideas around and get somewhere too. Can anyone answer my other question please (I think that might get us somewhere, see below)?
"Has anyone found the best ambient temp at the drag/track where the N* works best (maybe 68 deg or something)? Keeping intake temp constant would eliminate one more variable in tuning for optimal performance across RPM range.":cool:

Didn't someone already collect data on this at caddyinfo or somewhere else (I can't find it:mad:). Basically, it would be nice to cool (but not -200 deg F:nono:)the intake at least on superhot days to keep the performance optimized for street or track use with the least amount of hassle.

AJxtcman
11-30-07, 10:19 PM
Either I am an idot or some of you are!

This is the way I look at it.
The car is running down the road with the AC on. It is cooling the very small passengers compartment. I tee into the lines just like they do when they tie into the system for rear air except I cool my intake. :hmm:
Now the AC will kick out at WOT. :tisk: Not what you would want. I can leave the AC on for a longer time in the program before it kicks out:yup:
I am running the LS1 PCM now.:D
So now I might be up to 350+HP in my little turd.
Shelby stated 320hp from the 4.0L

Yes the AC takes HP, but so does a blower. OK the return is not the same.
If I can leave the compressor on at 90% throttle I may add HP for free. I am already running the AC:banghead: Cruisin down the road.

BTW the added water---- Wait you are not adding water you are condensing the water. The Condensed water will aid in cleaning. It can settle in the bottom of the intake and because of the intake design it will not get sucked up into the ports.

eldorado1
12-01-07, 12:35 AM
I come up with 5446 (min) to 6216 (max) J/s (or Watts). At 14 volts you're looking at 389 to 444 amps.

Very good!

400cfm = 6.7 cfs

Cp of air = 1J/gK

air density = 0.075lb/cu ft = 34g

Q=cMT = 1(34g)(30K)

I get 6800 watts.

Now, account for Peltier efficiencies (5-8%) and I get 136kW, or 9700 amps..... so I guess we were both a little off. You might need a nuclear reactor in the trunk. :eek:

Submariner409
12-01-07, 10:26 AM
AJ, ^^^ that's all well and good. But, YOU and you alone, have the capability to privately modify some Cadillac PCM programming. You can't legally use your service as an add-on to everyone who buys a CO2 expansion system.

Isn't the rear A/C just a controlled air duct from the front plenum just under the radio/ashtray hole area? There sure doesn't seem to be any refrigerant lines and/or an evaporator in the rear of my console. For an isolated A/C unit you can't just "tee into the lines", you would need a specially engineered evaporator and expansion valve for that circuit also, or you would seriously upset the gas/liquid main circuit.

If you can reprogram the PCM to leave the compressor on until 90% throttle, you have done it for free, but how much will you charge me for the same service? .....and will you give me a firm unconditional warranty on your work? Will the reprogram and CO2 install void my GM extended warranty?

Never said anything about adding water....humidity just goes in with the normal intake air and continues out the back as added vapor. BUT, using the CO2 system, if you condense and freeze some of the ambient humidity, you then have ice in some amount. Probably not much, but possible.

My take is that, in principle, on-demand CO2 cooling is a nice idea. In application and actual power gains, it's very iffy. (Intercooler and aftercoolers can only drop the intake or blower air temps to whatever the coolant is running at the time, so that's not germane.....) and again, there's absolutely no need to factor in "cruising down the road with the A/C on"..........if, in fact, the intake air is constantly cooled under those conditions, the net result may be slightly better gas mileage, perhaps somewhat less gain than turning the A/C off.

Submariner409
12-01-07, 05:45 PM
.......to belabor the point, and I think some of our engine builders and pilots will agree, there is a set of pressure/velocity/humidity conditions which will create significant ice in the venturii of carbureted engines, both automotive and aircraft, which is (partially) why some automotive air cleaners are supplied with heated air from a jacket around an exhaust manifold and why recip engine aircraft can use a similar control as needed. Vaporizing gasoline chills air a lot in the above scenario, so a subzero body in the airstream can do the same. So, if you have a coolant heated throttlebody (any takers ???) why precool the intake air ??? The airflow at part-throttle cruise squeezes past the butterfly in close proximity to the TB wall, so it is warmed, by design. Slam the butterfly wide open and now 95% of the incoming air never gets near the TB wall, so it goes into the manifold at outside ambient temp. Automatic CAI. By design. The engineers aren't total idiots (who said that?)

AlBundy
12-01-07, 08:13 PM
You guys really baffle:bonkers:me when you start talkin technical stuff. Please give me more.:alchi:

med
12-02-07, 02:09 PM
I got more. Let's roll with AJ since he actually can do this. I like the bulb mount idea, etc. Here's a pretty picture from their site. It looks optimized for abnormally aspirated motors (i.e., blown/turbo). It even has a fuel chiller (which may be good or may be bad), basically anything that can be optimized by remote (not parasitic on the motor) cooling is being cooled by this system. It looks well thought out (I hear everyone on the bulb restricting air flow, etc). I attached an intake schematic below: Could you bypass the coolant inlet/outlets (Legend numbers 21 and 22) to the TB in order to cool the throttle body (TB) bore without any bulb restriction? Maybe some of the heat would also flow out of the throttle valve plate and cool some air that passes over it. Of course at WOT the throttle valve plate would not contribute as much air cooling than when partially closed (but who spends 100% of their driving time at WOT anyway. People want to see some "bark" at the low end also). BTW legend number 4 is the IAT (intake air temperature sensor):hmm:.I hope your serious about this banter AlBundy, because I know I can keep it coming ad nauseum:ack:. Thanks for numbers appreciated Eldorado1 (at least we agree to agree);). I gotta get back to work.
Bottom Line: Good luck AJ, I think the cooling thing needs to be tried out. The system is remote/not parasitic, cheap to refill, and has the potential to get the N* cold air. <-- I say good thinking AJ:cool2:

AJxtcman
12-02-07, 07:14 PM
AJ, ^^^ that's all well and good. But, YOU and you alone, have the capability to privately modify some Cadillac PCM programming. You can't legally use your service as an add-on to everyone who buys a CO2 expansion system.

Isn't the rear A/C just a controlled air duct from the front plenum just under the radio/ashtray hole area? There sure doesn't seem to be any refrigerant lines and/or an evaporator in the rear of my console. For an isolated A/C unit you can't just "tee into the lines", you would need a specially engineered evaporator and expansion valve for that circuit also, or you would seriously upset the gas/liquid main circuit.

If you can reprogram the PCM to leave the compressor on until 90% throttle, you have done it for free, but how much will you charge me for the same service? .....and will you give me a firm unconditional warranty on your work? Will the reprogram and CO2 install void my GM extended warranty?

Never said anything about adding water....humidity just goes in with the normal intake air and continues out the back as added vapor. BUT, using the CO2 system, if you condense and freeze some of the ambient humidity, you then have ice in some amount. Probably not much, but possible.

My take is that, in principle, on-demand CO2 cooling is a nice idea. In application and actual power gains, it's very iffy. (Intercooler and aftercoolers can only drop the intake or blower air temps to whatever the coolant is running at the time, so that's not germane.....) and again, there's absolutely no need to factor in "cruising down the road with the A/C on"..........if, in fact, the intake air is constantly cooled under those conditions, the net result may be slightly better gas mileage, perhaps somewhat less gain than turning the A/C off.

I know how the water gets in the engine. I know it will build up in the bottom of the intake and it should be OK. I see your point. I need to look at what you are saying:thumbsup:

94greencaddysls
12-03-07, 01:38 AM
Why not attach an air to air intercooler in the middle of a custom intake and spray the intercooler with the cyro bar or nitrous to cool the intercooler and therefor cool the charge. Or fix an intercooler into a leakproof box and fill the box with ice and salt on your track days.

Submariner409
12-03-07, 10:07 AM
An assisted air to air intercooler is entirely feasible, but for later models, keep two things in mind: 1. The MAF includes the IT sensor, so that must be inline after the cooler, and 2: We're working with NO room in the engine compartment, so some creative tin bending, hose cutting, and gasket work needs to be done in the fenderwell cavity in front of the wheel on the driver's side, after removing the stock air filter/PCM box and cutting a sizeable hole into the inner fender.

In principle, it's a good idea. In proper execution, it's a lot more than "bolt-on". (The CO2 expansion bulb kit would benefit from the same totally redesigned intake setup.)

AJxtcman
02-07-08, 10:33 PM
I have been sanding the intake down. I will have it painted soon. I am thinking Yellow. hmmmmmmm

I purchased a Stainless rail today.

We all know that I am installing that blower and this set up will help
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Fiero/intake/intakeandrail.jpg

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Fiero/intake/intakeandrail3.jpg

I sealed up this valve, but now I need to make it a 4 PSI blow off valve
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Fiero/intake/intakebackfirevalve.jpg

med
02-09-08, 11:08 PM
:mob:How about some more pics of that intake after it dries! You sanded it, so hope it's nice and shiny! We want pics.

AJxtcman
02-10-08, 01:40 PM
After it was primed the painter dropped it. I have to sand that out of it. It didn't get painted yet, but I hope it will on Monday

AJxtcman
02-15-08, 07:06 PM
The intake is painted and on the car.
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Fiero/intake/Inthepaintbooth.jpg

Bare intake on the car.
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Fiero/intake/Bareintakeonthecar.jpg

Intake and Fuel rail
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Fiero/intake/Intakewiththefuelrailonthecar.jpg

Finished side view
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Fiero/intake/Finishedsideview.jpg

From the back side
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/Fiero/intake/Rearview.jpg

med
02-15-08, 11:10 PM
It matches the handle of your dipstick!:thumbsup:

Submariner409
02-16-08, 04:55 PM
AJ, Damn you !!! Now I have to get hot and do mine in either gloss black or OEM valve cover silver......:thumbsup: