: Friends don't let friends drive with bad motor mounts...



jnrandall
11-15-07, 05:50 PM
I had forgotten what a difference these baby's make to the feel of the car. Replace em if you need to. Cadillac would not replace them for me because it would require the removal of my headers. However my service writer gave me new ones (gratis) and I got them replaced on my own. Since my engine shop had to take the long tubes off anyway, they replaced the Kooks flimsy gaskets with higher quality steel ones.

No ticking, no leaks, just the roar of the Magnaflows!!! :thumbsup:

http://www.jrandall.com/ctsv/mounts.jpg

CIWS
11-15-07, 05:53 PM
Cool ! Thanks for posting the pic of them :thumbsup:

Feffman
11-15-07, 05:58 PM
HMMM, HMMM, HMMM (twiddling thumbs) ...Luke and UUC making up the urethane mounts.

Feff

1QUICKV
11-15-07, 06:03 PM
which dealer?

jnrandall
11-15-07, 06:19 PM
which dealer?

What's up! North Bay Cadillac in Roslyn, NY.

AAIIIC
11-15-07, 09:39 PM
Stupid question, but what sort of symptoms does one look for to know if your engine mounts are bad? From what I can see (I've had the car up on a lift a few times) mine are fine. But when I shut the engine off, it shakes quite a bit, which I've seen others mention here as a sign that the mounts are bad.

JonCR96Z
11-15-07, 10:00 PM
HMMM, HMMM, HMMM (twiddling thumbs) ...Luke and UUC making up the urethane mounts.

Feff

Yep, they need to hurry it up.

slothV
11-15-07, 11:30 PM
Stupid question, but what sort of symptoms does one look for to know if your engine mounts are bad? From what I can see (I've had the car up on a lift a few times) mine are fine. But when I shut the engine off, it shakes quite a bit, which I've seen others mention here as a sign that the mounts are bad.

From my experience:

-Load rattling when turning off the car (a little is normal)
-Clutch chatter when accelerating from a stop
-In my case the extra movement also caused the Corsa to hit on the heat shield causes a very strange noise during hard accels.

The GM service manual has check engine mounts second on the list for clutch chatter. (First on the list is oil on surface of clutch or fw)

randycsvt
11-15-07, 11:56 PM
I am getting an engine shake when I turn the car off that may be normal, but I would like to check the motor mounts. I just got the car and am not really familiar where everything is. Could somebody post a pic of the best places to look to see if the motor mounts are indeed leaking?

lunarx
11-16-07, 02:48 AM
Was the top mount (in pic) bad too?
It's hard to tell from the pic.

Venomous-V
11-16-07, 08:29 AM
Easiest ways to tell if they are bad is if you have shake and if you look under the car by the oil pan, if you see what looks to be like stained splattered oilish kinda looking stuff around there, Its a leaky motor mount.

randycsvt
11-16-07, 11:08 PM
Thanks! I'll check for leaks tomorrow when I install my cags eliminator.

ewill3rd
11-17-07, 07:09 AM
Trukk won the award for "worst motor mount I ever saw".
I have pics at work, one of them is posted on here somewhere.

trukk
11-17-07, 01:00 PM
Trukk won the award for "worst motor mount I ever saw".
I have pics at work, one of them is posted on here somewhere.

:thepan: DOH. Yes I am in the CTS-V Motor Mount hall of shame :(

I can't wait for UUC to crank out their new motor & tranny mounts, and rear diff bushing.

-Chris

CTSV_Rob
11-17-07, 02:37 PM
What a blowout, nice Trukk.

jnrandall
11-17-07, 08:59 PM
lunarx, the other one was pretty bad as well. Both appeared to have dirt or something in them. I should have taken a photo of the good ones next to the bad for comparison.

ewill3rd
11-18-07, 02:01 PM
Homer got some new ones yesterday. ;)

They were almost as bad as trukk's... not quite but close.

L.Sanchez
11-18-07, 09:42 PM
I was wondering about this. My car shakes pretty bad when i turn it off. I am beginning to dislike my dealer though. They seem look for ways of NOT fixing my car. My TCS system isn't working because i can't access the competitive mode or stability only and they said that was "normal" till I pointed it out in the book that they were wrong. Whatever...I'll take it in after I take a look for leaks around the mounts.

Ladis

ewill3rd
11-19-07, 07:01 AM
Did they fix the competitive driving issue? It was after the radio was replaced wasn't it?

Black Sunshine
11-20-07, 09:12 PM
So, need I ask, you's guy that have destroyed your mounts, are ya just a lil hard on the car?

I am having the same trouble since they replaced my radio. I can get it to change every once in a while but I have to screw with it a lil.

What's the cause/fix, pray tell?

ewill3rd
11-21-07, 08:40 AM
If they didn't program the radio correctly it will not know it is in a CTS-V and it won't go into competitive mode.
The controls are different on the base CTS.
It is a simple Tech 2 recalibration, takes only a few minutes.

trukk
11-21-07, 09:07 AM
So, need I ask, you's guy that have destroyed your mounts, are ya just a lil hard on the car?


Hmm, I do not think I am necesarilly hard on the car, however I do drive in a spirited manner. I don't do clutch dumps, wind out every gear, etc. I will say that my car is a DD. It's not a grage queen, and I drive it to have fun on my commute.

Unfortunately, someone at Cadillac, decided this car needed MOHR RUBBER BUSHINGS. That is the root of so much of our problems. I am slowly working to replace or mitigate the damage that these poor design decisions cause.

This car needs about 5% more, to make it absolutely fantastic, and very reliable. Overall I am VERY satisfied with this car.

My checklist:

New motor mounts
New tranny mounts
New diff mount
New cradle mounts
Replace dual mass flywheel
Stabilize cradle
Strengthen diff case and half shafts ('06+:thumbsup:)Once that is done, I think this car will be very solid for what I want out of it.

-Chris

qweegybo
02-17-08, 05:17 PM
This car needs about 5% more, to make it absolutely fantastic, and very reliable. Overall I am VERY satisfied with this car.

My checklist:

New motor mounts
New tranny mounts
New diff mount
New cradle mounts
Replace dual mass flywheel
Stabilize cradle
Strengthen diff case and half shafts ('06+:thumbsup:)Once that is done, I think this car will be very solid for what I want out of it.

-Chris

Hey Chris, the parts you've replaced... can you list the manufacturers of each part and price of each. I'm just trying to get a good idea of what its going to cost to get my V up to par and reliable without worrying about the little problems. Also please include any negative you've noticed from each aftermarket part you have replaced. If you don't want to post it on here for whatever reason can you please e-mail me. Qweegybo@hotmail.com

thanks fror the advice

ctsv154
02-17-08, 11:19 PM
At least post up the parts and places. I'm sure others would like to know as well! Thanks

trukk
02-18-08, 11:31 AM
Hmm, I do not think I am necesarilly hard on the car, however I do drive in a spirited manner. I don't do clutch dumps, wind out every gear, etc. I will say that my car is a DD. It's not a grage queen, and I drive it to have fun on my commute.

Unfortunately, someone at Cadillac, decided this car needed MOHR RUBBER BUSHINGS. That is the root of so much of our problems. I am slowly working to replace or mitigate the damage that these poor design decisions cause.

This car needs about 5% more, to make it absolutely fantastic, and very reliable. Overall I am VERY satisfied with this car.

My checklist:

New motor mounts
New tranny mounts
New diff mount
New cradle mounts
Replace dual mass flywheel
Stabilize cradle
Strengthen diff case and half shafts ('06+:thumbsup:)Once that is done, I think this car will be very solid for what I want out of it.

-Chris


In response to the 2 previous posts. I have good news and bad news. Some of the parts listed above are available:yup: Most aren't :bomb:.

Motor and tranny mounts: are still no show from UUC. I bug luke about them every 2 weeks or so, because *SHOCKERS* I need new motor mounts again (in another post, I hypothosised that this is because I heel-toe / rev-match in daily driving, and I think that does a number on the mounts).
Diff Mount: There are none readilly available that I'm aware of. I think Mallet has one, but it's not available for individual putrchse (ponyup for their $6k wheel hop solution, and you get it from free!). UUC is also supposed to be working on these, however they are further out than the motor/tranny mounts.
Craddle Mounts: The craddle mounts are pressed into the craddle in such a way, that you have to burn them out. No one to my knowledge makes any replacement bushings for the rear craddle. Spectre Werks and Lingenfleter make bushing inserts, which help to stiffen up the overall bushing a bit. Cadillac included a less well engineered version of those spacers on the '06/'07's, and you can get them added on the '04/'05's (via a TSB). Neither of the GM inserts do much of anything. The '04/'05's squeek so bad you'll either have them removed in a month, or you'll gougue out your eardrums with a rustly awl.
Repalce Dual Mass Flywheel: There are a lot of options for this. UUC is the only company that I'm aware of that makes a true repalcement lighened flywheel, all the others require a spacer kit to also be purchased ( I know TPIS makes a spacer kit, I'm sure some other company's do as well).If you want to stay with a GM flywheel, you can use the LS7, or C5Z06 flywheel, and loose a bunch of wieght, while retaining factory tolerances (i.e. not too agressive). Spec, Fidanza, Textrallia, TPIS, Lingenfelter etc. all make lightened flywheels that can be used with the spacer kit. Some are steel, some are aluminum. The lighter you go, the faster the car will rev, and the car will accellerate faster (to a degree). Making the FW lighter, also makes rev matching a lot easier. The downside, is it makes low RPM starts from a start more difficult (have to slip the clutch a bit more), and drag type launches/acceleration are hurt by the lessened mass of the lightened, FW.
Stabilize Craddle: The only easily available kit out for this right now is the BMR AWHK. It works OK. You should definately also get the pinion support. This definalely will introduce noise into the cabin, so be prepared. The KARS III is more robust than the BMR kit, however it is no longer being made (at least at this time). You will have to score one of those used (and they are hard to find).
Diff Case & Half Shafts: There are a millsion threads on this one. In a nut shell, there have not really been any homerun solutions to this. there have been a couple one off cobra 8.8 IRS installs. Kars offered a C4 (or was is C3, I always forget) Dana 60 swap out. 2 cars ghot this prior to Kars stopping production (caost appros $6500). Madman from Thunder Racing has a kit, which runs about $9k, that a few have utilized. Nutz & CustomGear (see the billet diff thread) are currently working on a billet steel direct repalcement diff. It looks promising, but is still under development. Finally TTS posed about retrofitting an '09 cast iron diff (with it's entire cradle) into a G1 V. More details about it are still pending, however it looks to be between $6-9k in cost. Thus no homerun on this problem. The halpf asheft are a smore simple problem. Untill the other bits get beefed up, no one seems to be snapping the '06+ cts-v hald shafts (the '04/'05's where smaller).Hope this helps. If I had the answers, i wouldn't hold out on them :D

-Chris

MWD
02-18-08, 05:09 PM
Motor and tranny mounts: are still no show from UUC. I bug luke about them every 2 weeks or so, because *SHOCKERS* I need new motor mounts again (in another post, I hypothosised that this is because I heel-toe / rev-match in daily driving, and I think that does a number on the mounts).


Hmm... I would think the opposite... rev-matching should reduce the shock load on downshifts a bunch.

Spirited driving however is just going to add more high load cycles to the bushings every time you are on the throttle or upshift in anger.

Michael

trukk
02-19-08, 11:29 AM
Hmm... I would think the opposite... rev-matching should reduce the shock load on downshifts a bunch.

Spirited driving however is just going to add more high load cycles to the bushings every time you are on the throttle or upshift in anger.

Michael


I hear that, but rev matching has got to do it to.

Pop the hood and watch, while someone blip's the engine, and see how much it moves. Imagine that every single shift.

-Chris

CTSV_510
02-19-08, 11:52 AM
I hear that, but rev matching has got to do it to.

Pop the hood and watch, while someone blip's the engine, and see how much it moves. Imagine that every single shift.

-Chris

I have to agree with trukk here.

djmodifyd
02-19-08, 12:17 PM
I had my motor mounts replaced due to the fact that it shook quite a bit when i shut it off. I got them all replaced and its like a WHOLE NEW CAR! so smooooth

MWD
02-20-08, 01:52 AM
I hear that, but rev matching has got to do it to.

Pop the hood and watch, while someone blip's the engine, and see how much it moves. Imagine that every single shift.

-Chris

Don't make me break out the diagrams and do the math. :thepan:

Michael

CTSV_510
02-20-08, 09:24 AM
I love diagrams! :yup:

trukk
02-20-08, 10:04 AM
Don't make me break out the diagrams and do the math. :thepan:

Michael


LOL, yes please. Edjumakate me.

-Chris

MWD
02-20-08, 06:42 PM
This is a simplification... arguably an over-simplification, but ....
Assuming that drawing a line through the motor mounts goes directly through the center of the crank, we can assume that the loads on the mounts result from the twisting motion centered on the crank. We'll assume also that there is no friction losses because we have Slick50 in the crankcase.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=39747&stc=1&d=1203548915

If we are just idling or revving the engine, the simplistic forces are either up/down in the cylinder or rotationally at the crank. Since they act on the crank centerline there is no rotational impact. Technically the opposing force that allows combustion to push down on the piston pushes up through the heads, but while this lifts the engine upward, it doesn't really cause rotation.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=39748&stc=1&d=1203548915

OK, so we were really simplistic at first. The truth is that while most of the piston force is applied towards spinning the crank (internal force) there is a small percentage of the mechanical force that is applied against the major thrust face into the block. At idle, considering we are not changing the speed of the crank, the force on the minor thrust face during compression (depleting kinetic energy in the crank) is essentially equal to the force on the major thrust face during combustion (adding back kinetic energy). When the throttle is open the major thrust force is .1x of full power, while we are applying kinetic energy to the crank via a speed change.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=39749&stc=1&d=1203548915

When we actually apply the force of combustion to the drivetrain (instead of just free-revving), the mounts must provide an equally opposite force to the crank rotation in order to keep the engine block from spinning an put that crank rotation to work.

So if we say that 10% of the mechanical force pushes with the crank rotation and 90% pushes against it, then we have 10% of the output pushing on the mounts during WOT free-rev and 80% net force on the mounts during applied acceleration.

Michael

SkullV
02-20-08, 06:56 PM
My TA would give you an A+

trukk
02-20-08, 07:56 PM
This is a simplification... arguably an over-simplification, but ....
Assuming that drawing a line through the motor mounts goes directly through the center of the crank, we can assume that the loads on the mounts result from the twisting motion centered on the crank. We'll assume also that there is no friction losses because we have Slick50 in the crankcase.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=39747&stc=1&d=1203548915

If we are just idling or revving the engine, the simplistic forces are either up/down in the cylinder or rotationally at the crank. Since they act on the crank centerline there is no rotational impact. Technically the opposing force that allows combustion to push down on the piston pushes up through the heads, but while this lifts the engine upward, it doesn't really cause rotation.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=39748&stc=1&d=1203548915

OK, so we were really simplistic at first. The truth is that while most of the piston force is applied towards spinning the crank (internal force) there is a small percentage of the mechanical force that is applied against the major thrust face into the block. At idle, considering we are not changing the speed of the crank, the force on the minor thrust face during compression (depleting kinetic energy in the crank) is essentially equal to the force on the major thrust face during combustion (adding back kinetic energy). When the throttle is open the major thrust force is .1x of full power, while we are applying kinetic energy to the crank via a speed change.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=39749&stc=1&d=1203548915

When we actually apply the force of combustion to the drivetrain (instead of just free-revving), the mounts must provide an equally opposite force to the crank rotation in order to keep the engine block from spinning an put that crank rotation to work.

So if we say that 10% of the mechanical force pushes with the crank rotation and 90% pushes against it, then we have 10% of the output pushing on the mounts during WOT free-rev and 80% net force on the mounts during applied acceleration.

Michael

Wow thanks for taking the time to post that. A few comments

While I was reading, mind was interpreting this as: http://www.wavplanet.com/downloadwavs.php?id=1902
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachments/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2004/39752d1203555124-friends-dont-let-friends-drive-bad-charlie-brown.jpg
You addressed only the mechanical force, and not how it was absorbed by the vehicle. When the car is in gear, isn't it spread across the motor mounts, trans mount, diff mounts, suspension mounts, cradle mounts, etc. ?? When it's not in gear the only thing that's really absorbing it is the engine mounts.
My engine deflects at least an inch to the passenger side, when 'free reving' it.
I really should have studied more in college. O.K. I should have studied at all. Actually I probabaly shouldn't have been a raving drunk, that was asked politely to leave (and never come back). They tell me I had a great time while I was there though. :thumbsup:
Engineers are cool.-Chris

MWD
02-21-08, 12:05 AM
Wow thanks for taking the time to post that. A few comments
While I was reading, mind was interpreting this as: http://www.wavplanet.com/downloadwavs.php?id=1902
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/attachments/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2004/39752d1203555124-friends-dont-let-friends-drive-bad-charlie-brown.jpg:D

Hey I warned you not to make me break out the charts...



You addressed only the mechanical force, and not how it was absorbed by the vehicle. When the car is in gear, isn't it spread across the motor mounts, trans mount, diff mounts, suspension mounts, cradle mounts, etc. ?? When it's not in gear the only thing that's really absorbing it is the engine mounts.
My engine deflects at least an inch to the passenger side, when 'free reving' it.Since the engine/tranny are firmly attached, the motor & trans mount work together to absorb the mechanical force, but it is still much worse in gear.

Each piece down the line receives the same twisting force albeit multiplied by gearing ratios. If you put 20 extensions on the torque wrench it still takes the same 50 lbs force on the end of a 2ft handle to get the 100 ft/lbs force to click a torque wrench set at 100, even if you are all the way across the garage. Every extension feels the same 100 ft/lbs of force.

The diff mounts and cradle mounts have to absorb the mechanical force as well, but the engine/tranny are not able to distribute the load because they are not rigidly mounted. There is a good reason why the Corvette has a torque tube to connect the engine/trans/diff together as a unit.

Not that I would recommend it, but if you wanted more proof you could mount a flashlight and a bullet camera up under the hood... Or you could just pop the hood stand on the brake and abuse the clutch in 1st gear to see how much the engine is really moving around under load.

To absorb the engine vibration the motor mounts have to be relatively compliant, so they will allow the engine to move even at much less than max load. The flexibility is not linear, so just because it moves 1 inch under
a free rev and 2 inches under full load does not mean the the free rev is loading the mounts at 50% of the max.

Michael

lunarx
02-21-08, 02:36 AM
So you are saying that Trukk is;

hammering his car in acceleration
or
is really bad at rev matching and reverse torquing his mounts

:D

MWD
02-21-08, 01:15 PM
So you are saying that Trukk is;

hammering his car in acceleration
or
is really bad at rev matching and reverse torquing his mounts

:D

I think maybe his car is just cursed, but yes he probably does have more miles of hard drivin' than all but a handful of folks.

Multiple stripped lugs...
Multiple diffs...
Multiple radios...
Multiple radiators...
Multiple engine mounts...
Multiple plug wires... (just guessing)

Michael

trukk
02-21-08, 02:04 PM
I think maybe his car is just cursed, but yes he probably does have more miles of hard drivin' than all but a handful of folks.

Multiple stripped lugs... YUP :crybaby:
Multiple diffs...4 and Counting
Multiple radios...Only one replaced
Multiple radiators...Only one replaced
Multiple engine mounts...4th set. Those things are a POS
Multiple plug wires... (just guessing) Burnt through 1 wire with my headers

Michael

A lot of my stuff was done, because it was under warrantly, and Lindsay would do it with no hassle.

My service record is here:

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v-series-forum-2004/131446-i-traded-v-2.html#post1413637

-Chris

MWD
02-21-08, 04:59 PM
I thought about it so more and it may be possible that rev-matching could cause more hurt on the motor mounts. Since the free revving will rotate the engine clockwise with the crank, but power to the pavement will rotate the engine counter-clockwise against the crank, there would be more of a whip action if the transition is very quick, say for power downshifting.

For normal heel & toe, you are completing the down shift while braking, in anticipation of going full power at corner exit. But if you are just power shifting down a gear or two say in preparation for a break in traffic :D, and you time it really well, you could effectively stand on the throttle rotate the engine to the passenger and release the clutch under full throttle, the engine is going to whip in the other direction.

In laymans terms :D, it would be like walking a large strong dog. You may be able to hold on while the leash is taught, but if he turns and doubles back the other direction, he might just rip the leash out of your hand.

Michael