: Having differential case problems???



Custom Gear
11-15-07, 05:39 PM
:crying2: I'm about to reverse engineer a stock CTS-V rear differential case, and CNC machine one out of billet steel. Would anyone be interested if I made a few more????

JonCR96Z
11-15-07, 05:42 PM
Possibly

Custom Gear
11-15-07, 05:53 PM
Not going to be cheap!!! I haven't written the program yet, but i think i'm looking at about 45hrs. to complete. Matl. costs at about $600.00

The Tony Show
11-15-07, 06:02 PM
We would all really appreciate it, and you may have many interested buyers.

That being said, I'd refrain from posting any more about it or soliciting business here without first becoming an authorized Vendor. It's pretty inexpensive for the potential business you have sitting here if you're able to pull it off.

Best of luck.

heavymetals
11-15-07, 06:05 PM
I am interested.

You might think about threading a couple of holes for the optional cooler.......

Custom Gear
11-15-07, 06:19 PM
That's why I wanted to start with a post here!!!! What better way to find out what other things can be added to the case before i make it!!!
"HEAVY" do you have a approx. location for thost two tap holes????

c5racr1
11-15-07, 06:21 PM
600.00 - 1000.00 I would get one.

Flyboy
11-15-07, 06:21 PM
"If" it's priced reasonably.......I don't mean cheap.......I would be interested.

Chef
11-15-07, 06:24 PM
ME TOO...QUICKLY:eek:

Right on the head Heavy - good one

onebadcad
11-15-07, 06:25 PM
I need one, not sure if I can afford one, may have to give up gambling for a few nights to save enough to pay for it.
Do you own a V?
Do you need a project car?
Are you near South Florida?

Keep us updated, and transfer your casino points to me, as you don't want to waste your time gambling if you are starting on a task as time-consuming as this one:).

DansCTSV
11-15-07, 06:35 PM
I'm in too. But we have heard this a few times before and the final price ends up being 6 - 10 grand. If you can make a steel replacement rear for a reasonable price that would be great!

heavymetals
11-15-07, 06:38 PM
I am interested.

You might think about threading a couple of holes for the optional cooler.......

The cooler was being offered by LINDSAY so they can give you the locations.

FIVEOH!!!
11-15-07, 07:08 PM
I would be in as well...

onebadcad
11-15-07, 07:21 PM
This is looking promising,,, okay, I am really posting for more points, but I do like the potential of being able to slam through the gears again without tapping out my AAA privileges.

Custom Gear
11-15-07, 07:23 PM
No, I don't own a "V" A friend of mine owns the car. He came to me after replacing the 2nd. case in his CTS-V with the issue.
I own a 1970 Z28 camaro, and have been making custom parts for it for 8 Yrs. I've broken everything from the crank back to the lug nuts.
50% of those parts I developed, designed and machined in a HAAS and a MAZAK QUICKTURN. This is what i do.
Now... From what I was told a new case costs about $1000.00. I don't know if that's installed or just parts. For me to reverse engineer, 3D model,
and machine 1 Pc. we're talking BIG money!!! (about 5 large$$$) BUT... if i were to make 10 Pcs. that # decreases dramatically. See what i'm getting at???

heavymetals
11-15-07, 07:33 PM
I did a lot of prelim work on this and I found that a cast iron foundry is gonna want to do a minimum of 50 pieces.

I am still waiting for a firm reply so that is going nowhere fast.

GETRAG is of no help so reverse eng is the way to go.

If your gonna hog out a piece of billet steel good luck.

darkman
11-15-07, 07:38 PM
I now have the 2006 differential which is not prone to case breakage. It is, however, subject to becoming increasingly noisy over time. Since the steel billet case with do nothing to address the gear noise issue, I do not see any benefit to me.

There would be benefit to those still sporting pre-2006 differential and running out of warranty. If I were in that position, the $1000 price would be an attractive alternative to the factory unit.

AirCav
11-15-07, 07:48 PM
It is a problem in search of a solution. There is a market. If you look at the forum members sig lines, it's apparent that they are not afraid to spend money on this car.

A good portion of this forum's traffic is some version of "I love these cars but........" and the but is usually the fragile rearend.

Good luck. Hope to do business with you in the future.

onebadcad
11-15-07, 07:49 PM
It is a problem in search of a solution. There is a market. If you look at the forum members sig lines, it's apparent that they are not afraid to spend money on this car.

A good portion of this forum's traffic is some version of "I love these cars but........" and the but is usually the fragile rearend.



Excellent post, best of the day,,, by the way, stop hoarding your points, pass them around, as they expire at 8:00 P.M. E.S.T., and are then subtracted from your next day's allotment.

Custom Gear
11-15-07, 08:04 PM
What do you guys mean by points???

heavymetals
11-15-07, 08:06 PM
I now have the 2006 differential which is not prone to case breakage. It is, however, subject to becoming increasingly noisy over time. Since the steel billet case with do nothing to address the gear noise issue, I do not see any benefit to me.

There would be benefit to those still sporting pre-2006 differential and running out of warranty. If I were in that position, the $1000 price would be an attractive alternative to the factory unit.


It isn't the gears that fail, it is the case.

It can tweak and then the gears don't mesh right.

I still think that some tweak the cradle to and then the doggone thing is never aligned right.

In true "hotrodder" fashion I would expect the failures to move to a weaker area once the case stops blowing up.

Interesting to note:

1.The "fragile rear diff" is getting to take on urban myth status (no flame).

2. The STS-V uses the same diff and there isn't a hugh outpouring of complaints or failures.

Is this because the STS V is an automatic and you can't do a clutch dump?

onebadcad
11-15-07, 08:08 PM
Look for the casino link in the first blue line near the top of the page. You can go gambling, but I do not recommend it, as this type of behavior can least to self-destruction and irreconciliable marital issues. You best action would be to dispense them to those members who are well-insulated against such and hold you harmless of the ramification incurred from such said behavior. Id est, click on the transfer link, give them to that onebadcad dude, he seems likeable and never forgets those that remember him.

JonCR96Z
11-15-07, 08:13 PM
Keep us updated, and transfer your casino points to me, as you don't want to waste your time gambling if you are starting on a task as time-consuming as this one:).


This is a very good idea.

Custom Gear
11-15-07, 08:13 PM
I tried that onebadcad!!!! it says i don't have priveliges to do it???

JonCR96Z
11-15-07, 08:16 PM
Oh, then you really don't need it. You have to be a supporting member to play.

StealthV
11-15-07, 08:24 PM
All I can say is ____.

Custom Gear
11-15-07, 08:25 PM
I'll be in touch!!! I'll be doing the digitizing this weekend. I'll know more then.

darkman
11-15-07, 08:27 PM
It isn't the gears that fail, it is the case.
It can tweak and then the gears don't mesh right.


I don't think so. The existing case can experience stress breakage, but not cannot be "tweaked" from stress. It can only "tweak" if it subjected to temperatures that approach the melting point of the particular aluminum alloy from which it is made. When my gears got noisy and the differenital was replaced, the case was intact and the gears were not. Earlier used fluid analysis indicated iron and copper contamination, but no aluminum or other metal contamination.

JonCR96Z
11-15-07, 08:27 PM
Get pics of the progress.

JonCR96Z
11-15-07, 08:29 PM
I don't think so. The existing case can experience stress breakage, but not cannot be "tweaked" from stress. It can only "tweak" if it subjected to temperatures that approach the melting point of the particular aluminum alloy from which it is made. When my gears got noisy and the differenital was replaced, the case was intact and the gears were not. Earlier used fluid analysis indicated iron and copper contamination, but no aluminum or other metal contamination.

I think he just means stressed, not a permanent 'tweak'.

heavymetals
11-15-07, 08:40 PM
Distorted, stressed, tweaked, cracked, compromised, whatever.

Cast aluminum can distort before it blows up.

csp3000
11-15-07, 08:47 PM
"If" it's priced reasonably.......I don't mean cheap.......I would be interested.


:yeah:

darkman
11-15-07, 08:53 PM
Distorted, stressed, tweaked, cracked, compromised, whatever.

Cast aluminum can distort before it blows up.

Well I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. I believe that cast aluminum is simply too brittle to distort without breaking.

heavymetals
11-15-07, 09:12 PM
I would agree about cast magnesium, but aluminum I don't.

onebadcad
11-15-07, 09:14 PM
This opinion vs. different opinion vs. rebuttal vs. counter-rebuttal thing is good for your points, and we all like points. Gotta go, as I need to pick an opposing point of view with someone who does not surrender.

heavymetals
11-15-07, 09:18 PM
This opinion vs. different opinion vs. rebuttal vs. counter-rebuttal thing is good for your points, and we all like points. Gotta go, as I need to pick an opposing point of view with someone who does not surrender.


Call my ex-wife

StealthV
11-15-07, 09:27 PM
It only takes a few thousandths of distortion to cause gears to make noise. Since everyone else is giving this perfect stranger every freakin detail needed to make money off you without doing any legwork, here's mine ____.

onebadcad
11-15-07, 09:30 PM
Call my ex-wife

Very funny, hopefully she only got the ast word, and not the last of your money... My next wife will not speak English and will have no relatives that live in the USA.

1badjimmy
11-15-07, 09:54 PM
I believe that cast aluminum is simply too brittle to distort without breaking.

I have to disagree, Darkman. I have heard of several guys that warped the 5.3L truck oilpan after cutting it up to fit the S-10 chassis. They cut it to fit and welded in patch panels and the pan to block area warped. The cure for that was to weld while the pan was bolted down to something.

On a different note though if the 06 diff is not breaking (or not as much known breakage) would that not be a better diff to reverse engineer? Hell if I could get one and do the swap at the house I would be down.

darkman
11-15-07, 10:07 PM
I have to disagree, Darkman. I have heard of several guys that warped the 5.3L truck oilpan after cutting it up to fit the S-10 chassis. They cut it to fit and welded in patch panels and the pan to block area warped. The cure for that was to weld while the pan was bolted down to something.

I am not sure we differ entirely. This kind of cast aluminum can be distorted with extremely high heat (as I indicated), but not stress, in this case presumably wheelhop.

heavymetals
11-15-07, 10:16 PM
If you look at some of the failures it is the case exploding from the pinion trying to climb over the ring gear and since it isn't moving or not moving fast enough, KABOOM.

Custom Gear
11-15-07, 10:57 PM
It only takes a few thousandths of distortion to cause gears to make noise. Since everyone else is giving this perfect stranger every freakin detail needed to make money off you without doing any legwork, here's mine ____.

99% of the details I need, are in the new case my friend has to buy in order for me to reproduce it. The other 1% is whatever you guys want to make it better!!!

CVP33
11-15-07, 10:59 PM
Wow, this thread got busy. Hope something comes of it.

JonCR96Z
11-15-07, 11:13 PM
99% of the details I need, are in the new case my friend has to buy in order for me to reproduce it. The other 1% is whatever you guys want to make it better!!!

Where are you located?

Florian
11-16-07, 12:02 AM
Ive got a stock rear diff for sale if you need one....came off when I did the KARS rear.


F

Florian
11-16-07, 12:06 AM
2. The STS-V uses the same diff and there isn't a hugh outpouring of complaints or failures.

Is this because the STS V is an automatic and you can't do a clutch dump?

Heavy,

Its not cause its a slushie, its cause we have subframe connectors on our cradle to keep it from tweaking....Basically its Dougs Stage 3 from the factory minus the pinion holder.


F

Twitch
11-16-07, 09:45 AM
It isn't the gears that fail, it is the case.

It can tweak and then the gears don't mesh right.

I still think that some tweak the cradle to and then the doggone thing is never aligned right.

In true "hotrodder" fashion I would expect the failures to move to a weaker area once the case stops blowing up.

Interesting to note:

1.The "fragile rear diff" is getting to take on urban myth status (no flame).

2. The STS-V uses the same diff and there isn't a hugh outpouring of complaints or failures.

Is this because the STS V is an automatic and you can't do a clutch dump?

Your giving me bad dreams. I thought I traded the V in for a new STS-V. Going down the road, I FLOOR IT,,,,,,smooth acceleration.
GOD I MISSED MY STICK!!!

JonCR96Z
11-16-07, 05:26 PM
yes sir

trukk
11-17-07, 12:37 PM
99% of the details I need, are in the new case my friend has to buy in order for me to reproduce it. The other 1% is whatever you guys want to make it better!!!

I am already saving towards a rear end solution. If your's works, I'm IN :D

To really cover all the rear end issues, the overall solution will have to address the following:

- Wheelhop
- Weak case
- Pinion Deflection

You are proposing dealing with the case, which no one has really tried to do yet (beyond an entire swap.) :thumbsup:.

Wheelhop has been addressed, but not solved by the BMR AWK, KARS kit, Spectre Bushing Inserts.

Pinion Deflection hasn't really been solved yet. UUC is working on a new front diff mount, in a higher durometer material, to help keep the angle under control.

Keep in mind that you will need to educate your clientel, that if they don't address the other 2 issues, they are still going to have problems. Additionally, the '04-05 guys with the thinner half shafts are going to have to address those as well, as they will start snapping like crazy if they get the other 3 issues 'fixed'.

With all that said, some things to consider regarding the case (re)design:

1) CTS-V's are not the only car's that use this craptastic Diff Carrier. STS-V's do also, in addtion to regular CTS's, STS's & SRX's. Almost all of the others are automatics, so they don't see the shock level that the CTS-V's do, but that does slightly expand your market. Finally the Kappa vehicles also use it (solstice/sky.) They are all fairly light, so they don't see the same issues that we do. HOWEVER, the solstive GXP, sky Redline, and the Mallet conversions (with an LS2 in them), seems to have had their fair share of diff issues as well. I bring this up, to show that the market may be a bit larger for a solution like this that most think. At the least, I would consider posting this over on the Solstice GXP forums.

2) If there is any way to add some extra fluid capacity, I think that would greatly enhance the longevity of the diff innerds. I think i't just over a quart right now, which is well, pathetic.

3) HM, mentioned the ability to add a diff cooler. To me that would be bonus, but if the capacity was beefed up, and it had sufficient cooling fins, it would probably not be as big of a deal. Wouldn't hurt though.

4) Along the lines of the diff cooler capability, it might be very nice to have a fitting to add a Diff Temperature sensor. CTS-V's already have a nice display in the DIC, that shows tranny temp. I would gladly relocate that sensor, to the Diff, as I am usually much more concerned about it's status, than the tranny (which is WAY more stout than our diff's).

5) Make sure that the solution works with both the '04/'05 & '06/'07 size half shafts.

Finally, for those that end up swapping to this case, but their clutch packs/pinion/rings may be slightly eaten up, due to too much time in the flimsy aluminum case, Quaife makes a swap in, which runs about $1500:

http://www.autotech.com/quaife/index2.htm
http://www.quaifeamerica.com/differentials/diff_apps.htm

I look forward to following your progress, and hope you come up with something that will help us all out.

Thanks for your effort!

-Chris

CTSV_Rob
11-17-07, 12:50 PM
I am already saving towards a rear end solution. If your's works, I'm IN :D

4) Along the lines of the diff cooler capability, it might be very nice to have a fitting to add a Diff Temperature sensor. CTS-V's already have a nice display in the DIC, that shows tranny temp. I would gladly relocate that sensor, to the Diff, as I am usually much more concerned about it's status, than the tranny (which is WAY more stout than our diff's).

I look forward to following your progress, and hope you come up with something that will help us all out.

Thanks for your effort!

-Chris

I will be good for one but not sure when at this point. Once the supercharger goes on then I will need to drop the cash to upgrade the rear.

BTW, you don't need to eliminate the tranny sensor on the DIC, just add a switch in a hidden place inside the V. You could switch between the transmission temp and the diff temp.

trukk
11-17-07, 01:17 PM
BTW, you don't need to eliminate the tranny sensor on the DIC, just add a switch in a hidden place inside the V. You could switch between the transmission temp and the diff temp.

LOL, sometimes the obvious and simple solutions are the best. I never even thought of that. GREAT idea!

-Chris

CTSV05
11-17-07, 09:20 PM
Pfffffft!!!

Damn GM copycats!!!!!!!

According to Florian anyway...BASTARDS!!!!!....Oh well, they copied Me on the race cars too.....lol

BTW, how many '06 cases have you guys broke? They are a nice looking case.

Albertan
11-18-07, 01:39 AM
Allow for a longer moment arm to attach to the front of the carrier. Then when the carrier wants to twist up, the arm can hold it from rotating better than the existing short arm with bushings. Kind of like a ladder bar attachment to the top and bottom of the carrier running along beside the drive shaft.

Chef
11-18-07, 11:56 AM
Yes on the project car?:bouncy:

trukk
11-27-07, 11:21 AM
TTT,

Any update?

-Chris