: E85 on northstar ???



molotovman5000
11-14-07, 04:55 AM
please discuss
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuOs1yap8mU

CHairforce
11-14-07, 08:59 PM
Hmmm, was wondering this myself seeing as how there is one E85 station around here. I'd imagine as long your compression was high enough, and you had braided steel fuel lines, and new gaskets it might not be a problem...The N* runs what, 10.5/1? Maybe new oxygen sensors might be in order, along with the exhaust and injectors? Or maybe you'll just screw the whole thing up, and blow your car out of the water. But I may just be talking out my ass here!:alchi:

Shift_grind
11-14-07, 09:06 PM
e85 cars run alot richer. instead of 14.7 target cruise AFR, they are closer to 10 or 11 to 1. wot goes down into the 9's. so basically you need ALOT more fuel. depending how big stock injector size is, you may need new injectors to compensate for more flow, as well as a bigger fuel pump. in addititon it needs to be tuned to run alot richer.


but you run into the problem that e85 isn't always e85. sometimes its e75, sometimes its 70, 85...etc etc. so constant scanning of your fuel trims is very important, and your need to constantly adjust fueling. its not government regulated and its not consitant. and you can find it everywhere, so you may have to fill up with regular gas which will make you run pig rich untill you can readjust the fueling. cars can adjust for fueling via the pcm, but this is to steep of a change to expect a car to keep up with it safely.

cars designed to run off it have sensors in there fuel tanks to calcualate this, to detect the actual ethenol content and adjust properly

besides that, its pretty good stuff seeing as how its 105 octane. you could run more timming with a custom tune, 18 or so without knock no problem, for more power. you wont save money though, you your mileage will go down considerably, which is obvious since your car needs to run alot richer to use it.

Submariner409
11-14-07, 10:31 PM
E85 is based on the political and corn lobby axiom "If you can't fill 'em with facts, baffle 'em with BS".

(Same for E10 and E20.)

Mountie
11-15-07, 03:03 AM
E 85? What a joke!

Figure what it takes to grow corn-water, machinery, acres of land, harvest, shipping, transform to refinery, refine it then distribution, etc.

You'd need 3-times the size of Texas land to grow 20% of the Nation's Ethanol.

10 times the pollution & energy to make than oil.

Oil : drill, refine & transport.

Other countries screaming about the environment, but they STILL DRILL THEIR OWN OIL. The stupid U.S. won't drill for what it has.

ewill3rd
11-15-07, 07:58 AM
Do not put E85 in a car that wasn't specifically designed to run on it.
You will destroy fuel system components and the car will never run properly.
There are no EPA approved "retrofit" kits or suppliers.
There is lots of information on the web about why this is a bad idea.
Pouring anything that will burn into the tank is just asking for trouble.

That video is the dumbest thing I have ever seen.
You can't do a scientific study on ONE vehicle and make assertions based on the results.
All the stuff I have seen so far is retarded, it is more of an emissions issue than anything and looking at the color of parts ain't going to tell you jack diddly.
Who ever said that E-85 would cause excess wear on anything?
Comparing fuel pump armature wear? C'mon! That is the dumbest thing ever.

dkozloski
11-15-07, 01:58 PM
At one place I worked the management sold gas to employees at a cut rate. Without telling anybody they started selling an alcohol blend. Employees spent literally thousands of dollars repairing the damage to the fuel systems in their cars. The secrecy really complicated the trouble shooting process. Some employees found themselves in life threatening situations when their cars quit running in extreme subzero weather. The trouble continued long after the blend was discontinued. Fuel system components that had been damaged continued to fail. Anything over 10% is playing with dynamite. Less that 10% can still cause drivability issues.

Shift_grind
11-16-07, 01:49 AM
^^ no offense to you guys but you really need to research this a little more before you pass final judgement.

cars have been designed to run on a ethenol mix for quiet some time. back in the 80's they were not, now all cars are. most gas stations sell ethenol blend, its pretty hard to find one that doesn't. so the arguement is if its to much ethenol and the awnser is no.

alot of guys run it for performance (high octane, cooler charge) but the key is adjusting for fueling. if you cant do that, stay away. i run it in my supercharged regal and i can run 3 more lbs of boost, leaner and absolutely NO kr. free power. but i can tune for it. ive been running a 50 50 mix in my car, no problems..as have ALOT of guys. i wont run a full e85 though, my fuel system cant support it, with the mods i already have as well as the increased boost. i would need a bigger fuel pump and injectors.


as far as the members here, dont use it. you cant adjust the fueling for it very easily with no tuning software..there is a little bit of upkeep on the tune unless you buy a retro kit which are overpriced.

Rumors say it may go down to the 1-150ish dollar range a gallon. its great at the track, beats the $5 a gallon for race fuel.

ewill3rd
11-16-07, 08:12 AM
No offense to you shift, but I think you are confused about who might need to do some more research.
Honestly, it is my job to research things like this so I can answer people's questions when they ask them.
I have done quite a bit on this actually, and not at you-tube.com

First of all, octane has little or no real effect on performance. Octane has one job, to supress pre-ignition.
The reason you use high octane fuel is actually to squelch the ignition process under higher pressure.
Race engines typically have very high compression values so they require a higher octane to keep the fuel from igniting until it gets a spark. As a result the fuel actually contains less energy when burned in a conventional engine.
The idea that high octane fuel is a performance enhancer is one of the biggest myths in the automotive world today and has no basis in fact. High octane fuel allows a high compression engine to run properly, which gives more power, and nothing more.

From a legal standpoint, tuning an engine without running the car and calibrations through EPA's testing procedure is a severe violation of federal law. The vehicle has to meet or exceed the emissions standards just as it did the day it was built.
Does that mean the cops are going to take you away for putting E85 in the tank? I'd say no.
Most modern cars are tested to run on E10, which is what most places have at the pump now since the Ethanol is a cheaper, more environmentally friendly alternative to oxygenates like MTBE or others.
(and I am not sure about the "cheaper" part)

A simple google search and the reading of a few articles on the internet will reveal the futility of this endeavor.
Listening to a couple of boneheads that tear an engine apart after running it on the wrong gas and telling you it looks cleaner is hardly scientific evidence.
I am more concerned about the smog they pumped out of the engine while they were operating it.
Nobody noticed the sentence where they guy admitted there were major issues with "fuel control" did they? (near the end)
It probably doesn't matter that the whole time they were testing it the check engine light was on and they were polluting the heck out of the surrounding air.

Where are the dyno readings everyone usually wants to see? Where are the gas analyzer readings?
Where is the actual scientific proof that this is a viable alternative in a non-E85 vehicle? There are none.
As I said before, a study of "one" is hardly a study at all.

Try looking up E85 on Google and pay attention to the links that don't belong to some tree hugging whack-o that says retarded things like "there is no wear on the crankshaft bearings".
That is a function of the oiling system and has NOTHING to do with the gas you put in.
(unless it is nitro-methane or something)

AJxtcman
11-16-07, 05:26 PM
No offense to you shift, but I think you are confused about who might need to do some more research.
Honestly, it is my job to research things like this so I can answer people's questions when they ask them.
I have done quite a bit on this actually, and not at you-tube.com

First of all, octane has little or no real effect on performance. Octane has one job, to supress pre-ignition.
The reason you use high octane fuel is actually to squelch the ignition process under higher pressure.
Race engines typically have very high compression values so they require a higher octane to keep the fuel from igniting until it gets a spark. As a result the fuel actually contains less energy when burned in a conventional engine.
The idea that high octane fuel is a performance enhancer is one of the biggest myths in the automotive world today and has no basis in fact. High octane fuel allows a high compression engine to run properly, which gives more power, and nothing more.

From a legal standpoint, tuning an engine without running the car and calibrations through EPA's testing procedure is a severe violation of federal law. The vehicle has to meet or exceed the emissions standards just as it did the day it was built.
Does that mean the cops are going to take you away for putting E85 in the tank? I'd say no.
Most modern cars are tested to run on E10, which is what most places have at the pump now since the Ethanol is a cheaper, more environmentally friendly alternative to oxygenates like MTBE or others.
(and I am not sure about the "cheaper" part)

A simple google search and the reading of a few articles on the internet will reveal the futility of this endeavor.
Listening to a couple of boneheads that tear an engine apart after running it on the wrong gas and telling you it looks cleaner is hardly scientific evidence.
I am more concerned about the smog they pumped out of the engine while they were operating it.
Nobody noticed the sentence where they guy admitted there were major issues with "fuel control" did they? (near the end)
It probably doesn't matter that the whole time they were testing it the check engine light was on and they were polluting the heck out of the surrounding air.

Where are the dyno readings everyone usually wants to see? Where are the gas analyzer readings?
Where is the actual scientific proof that this is a viable alternative in a non-E85 vehicle? There are none.
As I said before, a study of "one" is hardly a study at all.

Try looking up E85 on Google and pay attention to the links that don't belong to some tree hugging whack-o that says retarded things like "there is no wear on the crankshaft bearings".
That is a function of the oiling system and has NOTHING to do with the gas you put in.
(unless it is nitro-methane or something)


E85 is a good thing! Nothing wrong with it.
You can't run it in a NON E85 car or truck.
It would cost Thousands to convert it.
ewill3rd will go along with that. We have had all the GM training required. They have gone over all the different parts between the TWO types of fuel (E10 & E85). Other countries have other blends.
If you do not spend $$$$ up front it will cost you $$$$$ in the long run.

Fuel filler hose
Possibly a Fuel tank.
Fuel tank Module
Module seal
Fuel lines
Fuel line O-rings
Fuel Filter
Fuel injectors
Injector O-rings
Fuel Pressure Regulator
PCM program
I remember something about intake gasket, but that may have been a call in question.
Air filter?

AJxtcman
11-16-07, 06:45 PM
We had a CTS-V that filled up with 93. It dove 2 blocks and died. Towed in and we found over E85. The tanker had just filled the tank earlier that day. The fuel tested in the tank on Monday was about 70%. The bill to repair the car was over $6K. They say E85 will corrode the fuel system. I am not 100% with that. The water that E85 will suspend in the system and then settle when sitting will corrode the fuel system. I am not 100% on the alcohol doing the actual damage.

RunningOnEMT
11-16-07, 06:53 PM
E85 disolves rubber...

thats why you see fuel line that is E85 compatible...we ran into this problem when i was building an e85 hubrid in college

AJxtcman
11-16-07, 08:21 PM
E85 disolves rubber...

thats why you see fuel line that is E85 compatible...we ran into this problem when i was building an e85 hubrid in college

That would be the Fuel fill hose, Fuel tank module, the tank module seal, the fuel lines, the fuel line seals the injector seals, Fuel pressure Reg, and the intake gasket.

BTW I forgot to mention below
ewill3rd
E85 can damage the bearings. It has been know to wipe out the crank brgs, but not in a street motor. A very rich alki race motors can allow fuel into the crank case.

ewill3rd
11-16-07, 08:49 PM
It just seemed silly to me that they spent so much time talking about the mechanical stuff, which is really more of a function of the oiling system than the fuel system.
I can see blowby carrying something into the oil that could cause issues, my main point was that the most important piece of information was a 10 second blurb that they tried to blow past without anyone noticing.
"fuel control issues"? That is the whole issue, it is fuel we are talking about, not some miracle engine oil.

Anyway, I am not saying it can't be done, just not legally or reliably for a reasonable cost.
You'd be better to buy a flex fuel vehicle or just pay for gasoline.

AJxtcman
11-16-07, 09:30 PM
It just seemed silly to me that they spent so much time talking about the mechanical stuff, which is really more of a function of the oiling system than the fuel system.
I can see blowby carrying something into the oil that could cause issues, my main point was that the most important piece of information was a 10 second blurb that they tried to blow past without anyone noticing.
"fuel control issues"? That is the whole issue, it is fuel we are talking about, not some miracle engine oil.

Anyway, I am not saying it can't be done, just not legally or reliably for a reasonable cost.
You'd be better to buy a flex fuel vehicle or just pay for gasoline.

The CTS V that we repaired was about $6k.
WOW $6K for a bad tank of gas.
I bet that the car sat for a month before it was repaired and another few weeks after that until they settled. $35 to $40 per day for the rental

dkozloski
11-16-07, 09:38 PM
Just because you can dump a flammable liquid in the gas tank and the car will run on it doesn't mean it's a good idea. When the aviation industry swapped from 100/130 to 100LL(low lead) fuel, as carefully as the change was planned, there were still some very expensive lessons learned. Tetraethyl lead was replaced by other stuff to maintain the required octane rating and it did considerable damage. Some of it was completely unexpected. There were fuel system components that had been used for years that dissolved and completelty disappeared.

stoveguyy
11-17-07, 11:25 PM
i drove by a station that had E85 for $2.15/gal on monday. whoa. unleaded was $2.99. I am used to seeing a 40 cent discount but 84 cents seems awful high.

Shift_grind
11-19-07, 01:36 AM
No offense to you shift, but I think you are confused about who might need to do some more research.
Honestly, it is my job to research things like this so I can answer people's questions when they ask them.
I have done quite a bit on this actually, and not at you-tube.com

First of all, octane has little or no real effect on performance. Octane has one job, to supress pre-ignition.
The reason you use high octane fuel is actually to squelch the ignition process under higher pressure.
Race engines typically have very high compression values so they require a higher octane to keep the fuel from igniting until it gets a spark. As a result the fuel actually contains less energy when burned in a conventional engine.
The idea that high octane fuel is a performance enhancer is one of the biggest myths in the automotive world today and has no basis in fact. High octane fuel allows a high compression engine to run properly, which gives more power, and nothing more.

From a legal standpoint, tuning an engine without running the car and calibrations through EPA's testing procedure is a severe violation of federal law. The vehicle has to meet or exceed the emissions standards just as it did the day it was built.
Does that mean the cops are going to take you away for putting E85 in the tank? I'd say no.
Most modern cars are tested to run on E10, which is what most places have at the pump now since the Ethanol is a cheaper, more environmentally friendly alternative to oxygenates like MTBE or others.
(and I am not sure about the "cheaper" part)

A simple google search and the reading of a few articles on the internet will reveal the futility of this endeavor.
Listening to a couple of boneheads that tear an engine apart after running it on the wrong gas and telling you it looks cleaner is hardly scientific evidence.
I am more concerned about the smog they pumped out of the engine while they were operating it.
Nobody noticed the sentence where they guy admitted there were major issues with "fuel control" did they? (near the end)
It probably doesn't matter that the whole time they were testing it the check engine light was on and they were polluting the heck out of the surrounding air.

Where are the dyno readings everyone usually wants to see? Where are the gas analyzer readings?
Where is the actual scientific proof that this is a viable alternative in a non-E85 vehicle? There are none.
As I said before, a study of "one" is hardly a study at all.

Try looking up E85 on Google and pay attention to the links that don't belong to some tree hugging whack-o that says retarded things like "there is no wear on the crankshaft bearings".
That is a function of the oiling system and has NOTHING to do with the gas you put in.
(unless it is nitro-methane or something)

No offense taken. i would only take offense if you were right, and your not, so no offense to that?

Octane has quiet a bit of effect on perfomance if you take advantage of it. Why is it that the northstars are required to run premium? decently high compression. so how is it that a tune, or a "chip" or whatever your specific car needs gains horsepower? quiet a few ways. eliminating torque management, changing shiftpoints and such will help a cars performance, but not its peak hp. Adding timming is one way to make more power. Do you think its possible to run 18-19 degree's of timming on 92 octane in a northstar? my understanding is a northstar runs about 12-14 stock. so if you want to run 4 - 5 more degree's of timming, and chances are your already getting a touch of kr (knock retard, retarding of timming to deal with knock), you need more octane. Another way to get more power is run leaner....to a point. How do i use e85 to increase performance? more boost. i can safely run 3 more lbs of boost with no issue, if not more (havn't tried more)

so if you run this in a mixture, 50/50 and a proper tune, you can get more power, and safer power. why safer? because you can guarentee not to get knock. where alot of guys doing intake and exhaust mods are slowing down because they're running to lean, and most likely getting small amounts of knock.

e85 wont corrode your fuel lines. plenty of people have used it from a performance standpoint and had NO issues after 50, 60,000 miles. This is with nothing more then a Flex fuel filter instead of your stock fuel filter and a proper tune.

Im not saying that e85 is a awnser to northstars, but i am saying that It can be used as a very nice advantage in the performance world.

there are plenty of kits that let you run e85 in your car. and if you read my post you would see why i said they said there were "fueling issues" like i said, you need a lower Air to fuel ratio. e85 at WOT needs around 9.5 to 1, e10 needs around 12.5 to 1. this is why you get worse gas mileage, and this is the only possible other risk, maxing out your fuel system. most cars have a bit of headroom stock and its not an issue.


There's more to learn out there then doing google searches:bigroll:

Cadillacboy
11-19-07, 07:06 AM
If you can run amsoil why not you run E85 :lol:

ewill3rd
11-19-07, 07:36 AM
Shift, you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

1. There are a lot more components to the fuel system than just the fuel lines. Some of them are subject to damage from the use of high concentrations of ethanol. While this damage may not immediately present itself, over time it could cost a considerable amount of money.

2. This discussion is about the N* engine, which few people know how to recalibrate. Reprogramming this car is scarcely an option and fuel control requires the use of wide band O2 sensors and totally new fuel tables and other engine control calculations. Not sure how this imaginary reprogramming is going to be accomplished but I am sure if you were to waste the time, money, resources and effort it could scientifically be done. Not sure how many times I have said that so far but here is another one. Just because someone can get it to work doesn't mean it is a great idea, nor in my estimation is it going to be cost effective. If you "retune" your car to run on E-85 and you are in an area where you can't get it, does this tune compensate when you have to switch back to regular fuel? (because a flex fuel equipped vehicle does)

3. Out of all the availabe E85 kits available on the market, ZERO of them are legal for retrofit use. There is I believe one approved system avialable to companies for fleet conversions that has been EPA approved. At least according to the EPA and every REPUTABLE website I have looked at.

4. I am not sure why everyone thinks accusing someone of using a search engine is an insult. It leads me to reputable websites that contain factual information including current laws and actual scientific research, not two guys in a garage that say the crank bearings look good but the fuel control... well that isn't so good, but it is a great idea! I guess I should be using You tube instead of google. :histeric:

5. And finally, to be frank, I have forgotten more about modern cars than even most mechanics know. I don't rely on google or any other single source for my knowledge. Most of it actually comes from one of the guys at GM who teaches other people about how these systems work.

There are plenty of others who agree with what I have said in different ways.
Thanks for singling me out, I am flattered.

AJxtcman
11-19-07, 08:51 AM
ewill3rd Didn't we discuss this already?
I remember Acetone also?
Acetone is an organic product that burns way better than E85 or Gasoline.
It does not work in a unaltered car either.
Acetone has a higher octane rating and less carbon. Hmmmmmm:thehand:

ewill3rd
11-19-07, 09:08 AM
Yes AJ, this song has been sung before.
I suspect it won't be the last time either.

AJxtcman
11-19-07, 10:13 AM
Yes AJ, this song has been sung before.
I suspect it won't be the last time either.

Was it on this forum?:hmm:

ewill3rd
11-19-07, 10:45 AM
Yes.

Submariner409
11-19-07, 11:22 AM
:rolleyes: AJ and ewill3rd, you're only lowly GM certified technicians, and can't possibly know anything.

The black magic and hearsay "techs" know it all and how to do it all.

Thanks for trying to maintain some level of sanity and fact as opposed to blind luck and superstition.

Ever tried an E85/nitromethane mix? Much better in a N* above 9,000rpm.

dkozloski
11-19-07, 11:31 AM
Wait until the people who want to save a few pennies by burning E85 in their Northstar get the bill for the thousands in damage from the dealer. They'll be defenestrating all over the nation.

RunningOnEMT
11-19-07, 12:17 PM
No offense taken. i would only take offense if you were right, and your not, so no offense to that?

Octane has quiet a bit of effect on perfomance if you take advantage of it. Why is it that the northstars are required to run premium? decently high compression. so how is it that a tune, or a "chip" or whatever your specific car needs gains horsepower? quiet a few ways. eliminating torque management, changing shiftpoints and such will help a cars performance, but not its peak hp. Adding timming is one way to make more power. Do you think its possible to run 18-19 degree's of timming on 92 octane in a northstar? my understanding is a northstar runs about 12-14 stock. so if you want to run 4 - 5 more degree's of timming, and chances are your already getting a touch of kr (knock retard, retarding of timming to deal with knock), you need more octane. Another way to get more power is run leaner....to a point. How do i use e85 to increase performance? more boost. i can safely run 3 more lbs of boost with no issue, if not more (havn't tried more)

so if you run this in a mixture, 50/50 and a proper tune, you can get more power, and safer power. why safer? because you can guarentee not to get knock. where alot of guys doing intake and exhaust mods are slowing down because they're running to lean, and most likely getting small amounts of knock.

e85 wont corrode your fuel lines. plenty of people have used it from a performance standpoint and had NO issues after 50, 60,000 miles. This is with nothing more then a Flex fuel filter instead of your stock fuel filter and a proper tune.

Im not saying that e85 is a awnser to northstars, but i am saying that It can be used as a very nice advantage in the performance world.

there are plenty of kits that let you run e85 in your car. and if you read my post you would see why i said they said there were "fueling issues" like i said, you need a lower Air to fuel ratio. e85 at WOT needs around 9.5 to 1, e10 needs around 12.5 to 1. this is why you get worse gas mileage, and this is the only possible other risk, maxing out your fuel system. most cars have a bit of headroom stock and its not an issue.


There's more to learn out there then doing google searches:bigroll:


credentials please... i mean there has to be a reason that the DOT, DOE, and Argonne National labs told us that conventional fuel system componants in our Lincoln V6 would not work with E85... i mean they should know what they are doing at this point ... don'tcha think?

Ranger
11-19-07, 03:52 PM
ewill3rd Didn't we discuss this already?
I remember Acetone also?
Acetone is an organic product that burns way better than E85 or Gasoline.
It does not work in a unaltered car either.
Acetone has a higher octane rating and less carbon.
Oh yeah, Acetone. I remember that one. Yeah, it was discussed here some time ago.


AJ and ewill3rd, you're only lowly GM certified technicians, and can't possibly know anything.

The black magic and hearsay "techs" know it all and how to do it all.

Thanks for trying to maintain some level of sanity and fact as opposed to blind luck and superstition.
Well said Sub.

Shift_grind
11-20-07, 02:28 PM
not the "ive forgotten more then most mechanics know line" :roll:

the original debate was not that it is the awnser for northstar engines. it wont be a viable option unless everyone has ready access to tuners. My orignal post said that i wouldn't be to quick to dismiss it for performance in tuneable cars, more specifically Forced induction cars. on a non forced induction car, if you can tune, you can get some more power of it with a e85 mix (no need for a full e85 in a non forced induction car, even tuned for it)

there is a e85 gas station near my house, about a mile away. so i keep my 50/50 mix in there. i have had to fill up with regular 92 octane, in which case i pull the extra fueling out. I do have a scanner to Monitor LTFT's for fueling.

widebands are essential for tunning, but you dont haaaave to own one. you can do your final tune on a dyno with a wideband. if your at a 12.0 AFR, and your narrowband 02's are at 940, you know that a 940 is around a 12.0. if out of no where your seeing high 800's, you can determine your running lean. narrowband 02's while innacurate, are pretty consistant. they vary from car to car though, and an exhaust leak can mess up your narrowband readings. (i only refer to a narrowband because every car has one, and my scanner will display it)

MisterBlue
11-20-07, 06:52 PM
I'm a new guy - excuse my ignorance. How can someone buy a $CADILLAC$, and then worry about saving a few cents a gallon on a fuel (E85) that will NEVER give them as good an MPG, and may even damage their vehicle?

I know alcohol is used successfully in some racing vehicles. I also know that no racing vehicle is expected to go more than a few thousand miles without a teardown/rebuild.

Submariner409
11-20-07, 07:27 PM
:thumbsup: MisterBlue, You maintain that attitude and you'll be worth your weight in gold in here..............:D

AJxtcman
11-20-07, 07:31 PM
not the "ive forgotten more then most mechanics know line" :roll:

#1
it wont be a viable option unless everyone has ready access to tuners.


#2
on a non forced induction car, if you can tune, you can get some more power of it with a e85 mix (no need for a full e85 in a non forced induction car, even tuned for it)



#1
E85 will eat up so many parts! That is why they sell Gas carbs and alki carbs!!

#2
The money spent to replace all the parts will out weigh the small improvement!

#3
Buy one of my PCM's and then will can talk Numbers:D

ewill3rd
11-21-07, 09:57 AM
Shift, maybe it is a cliche but it is true, sorry.

The only other thing I can say is if you want to talk about the possible uses of E85 for a race car, go start a thread on it.
This topic is about pulling a car with a N* in it up to a gas pump and filling it, not the ramifications of special applications.
Thanks again for singling out my comments and ignoring the other 30 people that have contributed factual information to this thread. ;)

Now I know how my wife feels when she talks for 20 minutes and I only hear the 3 minutes worth that I wanted to hear.
Sorry honey....

Shift_grind
11-21-07, 11:30 PM
way to take the low road when you were proved wrong

congrats and 5 stars

im not talking about a race car, im talking about cars in general. in my original post i said it wasn't a good idea for northstars in general, but dont discard it from a performance standpoint in cars.

ewill3rd
11-22-07, 04:43 PM
I wasn't "proved" anything, least of all wrong.

Happy Thanksgiving! :D

zbuickman
11-25-07, 06:35 PM
A few other points on this.

1. the video shows the fuellines(briefly) and says there not "hard"well that right dummy thats because there softer due to disolving

2. the fuel mix isnt anywhere neer close. how did it run in open loop. even in closed loop the AE tables would be so far off. that thing had to stumble and sputter horridly. and for gods sake dont stick it to the floor.

3. MIL light you cant tell me thing wasnt glowing them in the face.

4 E-85 actually costs more than gas. once you factor in your milage.

5 doesnt atomize well at low temps. ie. car wont start well at -10F

6 will clean a fuel system. if you put it in a system that is varnished up from gas the E-85 will knock it ALL loose and it will plug up filters, injectors, ect. It also expands the paper used to make the filter elements alowing larger particals through.

7 on the same engine with only fuel, mix and timing changes E-85 WILL make 5% more horsepower

8. add more compression and EFI and more is available.

9 E-85 is less vulnerable to slight stoich variances than petrol based fuels

10. raises the price of corn, sorgumm and some other gass thing. which allows more cash flow to OUR farmers.

11. messing with the fuel is ILLEAGAL due to emmisions laws.

There are pluses and minuses. but DO NOT put it in a stock car that is not designed or altered for its use or you will see problems:yup:

well thats my opinion on it


P.S. Im suprised the combustion chambers looked as carboned up as they did on that thing. as leanas it was running. But, then again it may have been sooooo lean that it was not getting a complete burn.

ewill3rd
11-26-07, 08:19 AM
Why were they using a spark plug chart to check the color on the back of an intake valve?
Also, that color is supposed to be on the inside of the valve... not the BACK side of the valve. What is all that crap?
LOL

markinia
01-01-08, 02:29 PM
I'm an E85 supporter..Added some E85 to my 2000 Dts to make about 50% mix. Mileage according to mileage monitor dropped 4 MPG. from 20 to 16..Time 40-80 was 7.8 on 10% ethanol. 30 miles later it was 8.8 secs. Stumbles when you punch it. No check engine light. Can't wait to use enough fuel to fill up with premium again. Sure didn't work for me and my stock baby..

Submariner409
01-01-08, 02:43 PM
Don't forget that E85 formulations are extremely solvent and play hell with the molecular oil film on cylinder walls and valve guides. As you found out, you have to burn a lot more alcohol to make the same power as an equivalent volume of gasoline.

Ethanol is a wonderful political and economic windfall for some states. A significant percentage of U.S. drivers are now directly subsidizing corn/ethanol speculators through direct government kickbacks. In reality, it is pathetically wasteful.

dkozloski
01-01-08, 04:58 PM
It might be useful to examine what commercial pipeline companies think about the transportation of ethanol blends in their systems. Existing water and acids in the systems, instead of remaining in low spots and sumps, combines with the alcohol and is swept through the system into customers fuel tanks. The alcohol itself reacts badly with some metal alloys and welded fittings through intergranular corrosion to produce cracking and structural failures. This is just with 10% blends and not E85. Unless you are prepared to deal with catastrophic failures it's not a good idea to convert your daily driver into a fuel research laboratory.

AMGoff
01-01-08, 06:14 PM
Wow... I hadn't even seen this one, last I knew a certain someone else was talking about Northstars and E85 over in the Seville forum.

It's been well over a month since gear-shift or knob-head or whatever his name is has posted anything. Methinks he may have foolishly ran too much ethanol and his car is subsequently out of commission.

Submariner409
01-01-08, 06:27 PM
You oughtta read up on the absolute unholy mess ethanol has made of boat fuel systems and fiberglass tanks. It's a windfall for mechanics.

If I drop my principles a couple of notches, me an' some Shore good ol' boys could whomp up a still, turn into yet another group of government paid moonshiners, and become instant Beverly Hillbillies. I can see it in lights now: SCORN, Inc. (Shore CORN) :alchi:

dwight.j.carter
01-02-08, 09:16 PM
E85 would be great if the auto makers made an engine optimized to run it. As of right now you still get better milleage running 10% ethanol or just gasoline. I would love to use it but I don't want to make more trips to the station. Has anyone tried running it on a northstar engine ?

dwight.j.carter
01-02-08, 09:23 PM
Check this out a conversion kit to run E85.

http://www.fullflexint.com/pages/vehicles.htm

rediculous if you ask me the only reason I would consider it would be because I would be losing less oil.

Submariner409
01-02-08, 10:20 PM
I think GM says no E85 in a N*, or at least not in an engine not specifically designated "Flex Fuel". The injector flow and fuel timing windows have to be a lot more open than for E10.

You have to burn at least 10-15% more E85 to make the same energy as gasoline alone. That single fact tells you why corn politics is so hyped. You burn E85 or some variant and you support a corrupt politician who gets kickbacks of all sorts from her/his "supporters". It's not about the atmosphere: it's about money and votes. Read the Wall St. Journal and follow the corn market.

ewill3rd
01-03-08, 08:29 AM
I guess it doesn't matter that those conversion kits are totally illegal based on EPA regulations.
Oh well.

AJxtcman
01-03-08, 09:49 AM
I guess it doesn't matter that those conversion kits are totally illegal based on EPA regulations.
Oh well.

:hmm: Sucker. :Poke: You got sucked in again :histeric:
Now stop :rant2: because I don't want to check this anymore and get sucked in myself:rant2:

silvawolfe
01-03-08, 09:52 PM
I'm new to this fourm but like some other people here, I make my money on caddilacs. They are very nice cars riddled with problems(most easy fixes). I go to the auction, buy a damaged car, fix it, and sell it for about twice the original purchase price.

I currently have a 99 STS that I use E85 year round. I do not mix it with gas, I just pump it right in.
About the only mod I have is a raised fuel pressure. I do not run the car hard so I don't have problems with running too lean because of lack of fuel. I'm not too sure about the Northstar ecu but most try to adjust the fuel to a lambda of 1 which will always be 1 regardless of fuel, so as long as you are compensating for the extra 30% more fuel needed you should not have a problem. I do have problems starting it when it is 20F or less, but it does start just takes a few more seconds. As far as the corrosion factor and dissolving rubber; I think that may be more of a myth than anything, I have been using straight E85 in my 95 Talon for over a year with zero leaks. I even pulled the engine apart recently to put performance parts in it just to find it was nearly as clean as the day I put it together just before starting to use e85.

I'm not saying it is a good idea to use E85 in anything especially if you are not able to fix something if it goes wrong. but I do feel that there is way too much hearsay and not enough people taking the plunge and just trying it. As with everything new, there are always more people who think it's a bad idea just because of something they read or a past experience, and far less who have tried it and overcame the obstacles (if there were any). There are way too many people who are afraid to take risks so they post something on the internet about how it is a bad idea instead of just saying "I don't know...never tried it".

I saw elsewhere in this post about the tuning kits not being legal, we actually there are a growing number of them that are. http://e85vehicles.com/e85/index.php?topic=1016.0 I personally have never used one and probably never will since raising the fuel pressure basically do the same thing as increasing the injector duty cycle.

ewill3rd
01-04-08, 08:21 AM
Must.... restrain.... self.... don't ...... get.... pulled ...... in......

:histeric:


I guess the fact that it is illegal to tamper with the vehicle emissions system is enough of a deterrent for me.
I can't speak for anyone else.

Submariner409
01-04-08, 10:58 AM
silvawolfe, If I run E85 in my STS, will GM still honor engine damage warranty even though the manual says the car is not designed to run on E85?

silvawolfe
01-04-08, 07:39 PM
I never said anything about a warranty, and I certainly never said anything about modifying the emissions system. I never removed any part of the emissions system and I am confident I would have no problems passing if I had to.

I'm simply sharing my PERSONAL experience. I'm not saying it's a good idea for anyone, but it works for me.