: 00 to 03 engine in a 98 or 99 Seville.



AJxtcman
11-06-07, 02:30 PM
This is an easy swap. I will post the how to in the tech tips.
This is the first time I had a 99 Seville in and the time to look it over. :yawn:

AJxtcman
12-04-07, 01:51 PM
We have an 98 Seville in the shop with head gaskets out of it:hide: I have been looking over all of the differences between the 98-99 and the 00+. Everything is the same Except some minor wire swapping.

I will do a Tech tip on this when I get all the info together

CadillacSTS42005
12-04-07, 02:09 PM
dude
goodluck man i think its an easier said than done factor
but your the one who could do it if it could be done i suppose

CadillacSTS42005
12-04-07, 11:53 PM
just thought of something
what about using a 06+ N* with VVT?

Zorb750
12-09-07, 10:26 PM
VERY different, not even same mounts. They haven't adapted that engine for front drive yet.

CadillacSTS42005
12-10-07, 11:52 PM
umm isnt the 06-07 DTS Lux Sport is powered by a 4.6 VVT?
i know that the DTS uses the SAME platform as the Seville and Deville so thats not a problem

AJxtcman
12-11-07, 06:37 AM
umm isnt the 06-07 DTS Lux Sport is powered by a 4.6 VVT?
i know that the DTS uses the SAME platform as the Seville and Deville so thats not a problem

VVT Northstars are RWD only
VVT 3.6L are FWD and RWD

The VVT Northstar is longer

roddinbc
05-13-08, 12:16 AM
Hi, I am new to these forums and have a 99 STS vin9 car. The engine has 150+k on it and I want to install an o0-03 vin 9 engine.
Please excuse all the questions but I want to be sure that if I buy a newer engine that I don't have to resell it again cause I couldn't make it work.
I am no stranger to engine swaps but I don't want to modify the car a lot to make it work.

I have had my engine out once to replace head gaskets but I have a problem oil leak now and I have had enough! Time to put a replacement engine in.

Did you ever complete a swap into a 98-99? It appears the engines will bolt in. I have been researching it, and can see differences in the exhaust manifold gaskets. Can I use the 99 exhaust manifolds?
The intake gaskets are different but will the older intake bolt on? If not will the throttle body interchange, or can I use the newer fuel system as is?
In short if anyone has successfully completed this project, I would love to hear from you.

chubbyranger
05-13-08, 06:39 AM
:welcome: I don't know if AJ managed to make this magic happen but there are other threads where the prevailing wisdom seems to be that you cannot retrofit a post-2000 N* into a pre-2000 car. There was some discussion here:

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/northstar-performance-technical-discussion/122168-gm-now-offers-premium-remanufactured-4-a.html

Submariner409
05-13-08, 08:26 AM
I do know that the intake manifold/connector (plenum)/throttlebody flange was changed in '00. Not sure when the cat went from solid pipe to a flex flange on the front. Different ignition and coil trigger wiring.

zonie77
05-13-08, 12:05 PM
We had someone work out the swap with the 2000 engine into a 99 (I think). He said he modified sensors and fabricated some parts and got it working. He only posted a few times though and never returned. So it can be done. It is not a bolt in and unless AJ or someone posts a list of mods you will have to figure it out yourself.

Submariner409
05-13-08, 02:10 PM
Just looked at the "special - special" on the left side of the www.rhinoengines.com site and they still have '00 - '02 VIN 9 N*"s for $4995, fully dressed, free freight.........(a phone call months ago affirmed that the pic is not the engine they're selling.....they have sidewinders.)

roddinbc
05-13-08, 11:50 PM
from all can figure out it would be less trouble to buy a long block off ebay that fits then to tie up the shop for days on end trying to make something else fit.
thanks for the responses,

AJxtcman
12-16-10, 07:22 PM
from all can figure out it would be less trouble to buy a long block off ebay that fits then to tie up the shop for days on end trying to make something else fit.
thanks for the responses,

I do a lot of hard core LS1 mods for customers

I just did a tune for a 2000 5.3L in a 1996 Camaro with a 1998 Dash, a 16 gallon fuel cell with a 2002 PCM and 2002 Calibration and a Speed Density tune on top of that and the guy never complained about a for days of having it laid up.

zonie77
12-18-10, 01:54 AM
AJxtcman, what about the original car in the thread? Did you get the 00+ engine to work in the 97-99 car??

AJxtcman
12-18-10, 07:45 AM
YES and no DTC's
You will need to repin Connector C101.
This is a complete pwoertrain swap. Unbolt the subframe/cradle and slide it under the other car.
In the last month it has been proven that a 3800 SC powertrain unit will work or even a 3.5L from an Aurora

You guys are all stuck in a rut on this forum.
Just like the tuning stuff - stuck in a rut. It's going on and has been going on.

mwise101
12-30-10, 05:17 PM
Would have loved to have put a newer northstar into my car. Oh well. Already done now. LOL

RippyPartsDept
12-30-10, 05:34 PM
complete powertrain swap is not the same as an engine swap... when someone says can the engine swap be done we say 'no' because it can't (at least not by a DIYer)

there's a difference between what you do and what the average person is trying to do

nothing wrong with that

97EldoCoupe
12-31-10, 08:21 AM
I don't believe it's that easily possible. Think about the injector wiring, the ckp sensor wiring, oh wait AJ did you mean taking the whole harness too? What about the PCM programming. Is it set up to work with the 00+ coil on plug ignition system? What about the CKPs and different reluctor ring on the crank-

At the bare minimum I'd say to make this work you'd need the engine & trans, the WHOLE underhood wiring harness, and a 2000+ pcm. Now will the 2000+ pcm communicate with the on board electronics of the 98 and 99 MY cars. If not, can the 98 and 99 PCMs be set up to run all the newer systems on the 2000+ drivetrain-

Definitely not just an engine swap. There is PCM work involved to make this all work. There has to be.

stoveguyy
12-31-10, 01:41 PM
3800 buick in a caddy has been mentioned. never seen it done though. why do it?

RippyPartsDept
12-31-10, 05:07 PM
s/c caddy, right?

98eldo32v
12-31-10, 08:22 PM
I think what AJ is getting at is that you need the COMPLETE powertrain.

Engine, transmission, asscociated wiring that was in the engine compartment along with the donor vehicles ecm/pcm. If in theory that I'm correct, I can see it possible.

The reason being that the pcm is going to control all the exisiting functions to that specific powertrain set up. The signals from the transmission for vehicle speed and etc, will probably still communicate across the same wiring as long as the wires correspond to the same inputs and outputs.

The rest of the vehicle has bcm's and other computers that control "body" functions which in theory is a separate system which "shouldn't" be dependent on which pcm/powertrain is in the engine compartment.

Just a hunch......

RippyPartsDept
12-31-10, 10:37 PM
Yeah that's what I took it to mean.

AJxtcman
01-02-11, 04:57 PM
complete powertrain swap is not the same as an engine swap... when someone says can the engine swap be done we say 'no' because it can't (at least not by a DIYer)

there's a difference between what you do and what the average person is trying to do

nothing wrong with that


I don't believe it's that easily possible. Think about the injector wiring, the ckp sensor wiring, oh wait AJ did you mean taking the whole harness too? What about the PCM programming. Is it set up to work with the 00+ coil on plug ignition system? What about the CKPs and different reluctor ring on the crank-

At the bare minimum I'd say to make this work you'd need the engine & trans, the WHOLE underhood wiring harness, and a 2000+ pcm. Now will the 2000+ pcm communicate with the on board electronics of the 98 and 99 MY cars. If not, can the 98 and 99 PCMs be set up to run all the newer systems on the 2000+ drivetrain-

Definitely not just an engine swap. There is PCM work involved to make this all work. There has to be.


I think what AJ is getting at is that you need the COMPLETE powertrain.

Engine, transmission, asscociated wiring that was in the engine compartment along with the donor vehicles ecm/pcm. If in theory that I'm correct, I can see it possible.

The reason being that the pcm is going to control all the exisiting functions to that specific powertrain set up. The signals from the transmission for vehicle speed and etc, will probably still communicate across the same wiring as long as the wires correspond to the same inputs and outputs.

The rest of the vehicle has bcm's and other computers that control "body" functions which in theory is a separate system which "shouldn't" be dependent on which pcm/powertrain is in the engine compartment.

Just a hunch......


Yeah that's what I took it to mean.

The engine and the engine harness is different, Well then the Trans is different, because of the Internal Mode Switch (IMS) vs the PRNDL switch on the top of the trans. Yeah you need to change the trans also, but wait the PCM may nee th AIR system also.

So if you unbolted the Cradle for a 2003 STS with every thing on it. This is the PowerTrain Unit. It would bolt into a 99 STS and work just fine. You will need to make sue the suspenion option are the same or you will need to keep your ABS unit and struts.
Like I said just repin Connector C101. This is very easy just look at all of the stuff people do on the LS1Tech forum.

97EldoCoupe
01-03-11, 07:09 PM
So AJ what about the PCM. Any reprogramming needed?

AJxtcman
01-03-11, 08:16 PM
So AJ what about the PCM. Any reprogramming needed?

You have to use the complete powertrain unit including the PCM.

N*Caddy
01-04-11, 08:41 PM
I guess you can bolt right in a '00+ ETC engine in a '97 STS as long as the PCM and all the wires come with it including the AIR system. Mechanically the CAT should fit, not sure if functionally.
There is NO electrical difference between '97 Seville and '00+ Eldorado (well a part of the 2 less door power windows, OnStart stuff and the trunk harness), so from the firewall back is the same car (electrically).

Now the big question...what do you have to do for the (new) PCM once the engine is swapped, any programming (at least the VIN I am thinking).

Also if you swap the PCM between 2 identical cars, what should be programmed?
It cost me about $499 to ship my PCM to be "Z" rated (plus about 3 weeks no car), while I can get a "Z" rated PCM tomorrow for ~$50.

mwise101
01-04-11, 08:59 PM
So what he's saying is you merely use the COMPLETE PCM and repin connector C101 (whatever connector C101 is). I would assume no reprogramming would be required as the engine is already designed for that pcm. What does C101 communicate with? ABS? RSS? ETC? Just curious. I sure wish I would have done this. I prefer the 2000+ engine to the >99 engines. :( Oh well. LOL

98eldo32v
01-04-11, 10:29 PM
I guess you can bolt right in a '00+ ETC engine in a '97 STS as long as the PCM and all the wires come with it including the AIR system. Mechanically the CAT should fit, not sure if functionally.
There is NO electrical difference between '97 Seville and '00+ Eldorado (well a part of the 2 less door power windows, OnStart stuff and the trunk harness), so from the firewall back is the same car (electrically).

Now the big question...what do you have to do for the (new) PCM once the engine is swapped, any programming (at least the VIN I am thinking).

Also if you swap the PCM between 2 identical cars, what should be programmed?
It cost me about $499 to ship my PCM to be "Z" rated (plus about 3 weeks no car), while I can get a "Z" rated PCM tomorrow for ~$50.

Gentlemen,

Why would the "pcm" need reprogramming? The power train control module is designed to work with THAT particular power train. If you take the whole power train eng, trans, and related stuff as a "whole" unit, the "pcm" doesn't care what "body/car" surrounds it. The pcm's function is to control the engine and transmission and things associated to the powertrain. In theory, if all cradle dimensions and engine bays were similiar, the swapping could be endless.

AJxtcman
01-04-11, 10:38 PM
I guess you can bolt right in a '00+ ETC engine in a '97 STS as long as the PCM and all the wires come with it including the AIR system. Mechanically the CAT should fit, not sure if functionally.
There is NO electrical difference between '97 Seville and '00+ Eldorado (well a part of the 2 less door power windows, OnStart stuff and the trunk harness), so from the firewall back is the same car (electrically).

Now the big question...what do you have to do for the (new) PCM once the engine is swapped, any programming (at least the VIN I am thinking).

Also if you swap the PCM between 2 identical cars, what should be programmed?
It cost me about $499 to ship my PCM to be "Z" rated (plus about 3 weeks no car), while I can get a "Z" rated PCM tomorrow for ~$50.

You need to leave the VIN in that goes with the engine.

I can set up a Z rated PCM for $100 all day long with your VIN.

AJxtcman
01-04-11, 10:46 PM
So what he's saying is you merely use the COMPLETE PCM and repin connector C101 (whatever connector C101 is). I would assume no reprogramming would be required as the engine is already designed for that pcm. What does C101 communicate with? ABS? RSS? ETC? Just curious. I sure wish I would have done this. I prefer the 2000+ engine to the >99 engines. :( Oh well. LOL

On 1998+ Sevilles you will find C101 over by the Master Cylinder and the Surge tank. Its a big connector like a 40 pin connector. This is the main connector between the PowerTrain harness and the main car/body harness. some of the terminals are in different locations over the years. all you need to move is a hand full say 6 ternimals

AJxtcman
01-04-11, 10:51 PM
Gentlemen,

Why would the "pcm" need reprogramming? The power train control module is designed to work with THAT particular power train. If you take the whole power train eng, trans, and related stuff as a "whole" unit, the "pcm" doesn't care what "body/car" surrounds it. The pcm's function is to control the engine and transmission and things associated to the powertrain. In theory, if all cradle dimensions and engine bays were similiar, the swapping could be endless.

98+ Sevilles will take 2000+ Deville and Seville PowerTrains. A 96 to 99 Deville, a 1996 and 1997 Seville, and 1996 to 1999 Eldo will take a 2000 to 2002 Edlo unit, but they don't use C101 and you will need to look at the 2 connectors it uses.

98eldo32v
01-04-11, 11:27 PM
98+ Sevilles will take 2000+ Deville and Seville PowerTrains. A 96 to 99 Deville, a 1996 and 1997 Seville, and 1996 to 1999 Eldo will take a 2000 to 2002 Edlo unit, but they don't use C101 and you will need to look at the 2 connectors it uses.

Well, there you have it.

Get a donor car that has been rear ended , as long as the power train is unmolested and you're a little handy with electrical wiring/connectors you're in business.

I had similiar thoughts about this yet was still unclear whether it would work.

Physically the swap is totally feasible, but you'll have to make sure "electrically" you've got all the wires in the right places.

98eldo32v
01-04-11, 11:38 PM
Just a thought though.

I know the "newer" powertrains are designed to run on regular gas, (like there is a huge price difference right now between 87 & 93 octane). Yet what are the real advantages of going to the "newer" style engines? The h.p. ratings are the same, aren't they?

The "newer" engines do have the "roller" style heads, a tad bit cleaner look than the previous generation. Yet, I can't see doing this unless I was going from a "y" setup to a "9" set up and couldn't find anything available to repair my model year vehicle.

ponyboyt
01-05-11, 04:59 AM
im thinking the same thing as 98eldo32v.

Ive seen a lot of pre-99 non rollers with worn cam lobes and pitted lifters though. They can get noisy. But i havent had much experience 2000+. Maybe that would talk me into a project :)

N*Caddy
01-05-11, 06:42 AM
The ONLY reason I would change to '00+ engine is the ignition cassettes, no more spark plug wiring.

miwise
01-05-11, 07:48 AM
im thinking the same thing as 98eldo32v.

Ive seen a lot of pre-99 non rollers with worn cam lobes and pitted lifters though. They can get noisy. But i havent had much experience 2000+. Maybe that would talk me into a project :)

My engine has this problem. I just decided to live with it. As for the 00+. I like the cleaner look and the face that it'll run on 87 octane. I'm happy tho with my current setup. I knew where a complete 00 engine was I coulda gotten. Lol. Looks like an easy job to me

ponyboyt
01-05-11, 12:22 PM
still... something about 10.1 and 87 octane doesnt sit right with me. Ive run nothing but premium in all my previous cars (never owned a 00+) and the compression ratio isnt THAT much lower.

miwise
01-05-11, 01:15 PM
This is true. They prolly retarded the timing or something. I would think they may have done something to the head design to achieve this in addition. Idk. Speculation. I always go with manufacturer recommendation and put what they tell me to put in my car

Racer704
01-15-11, 09:34 PM
I have run 87 in my 97 ETC for over 5 years now with no issues and got the same milage also..its not so much the compression as the 4 valve heads handle higher CR better then 2 valve wedge design...its in the timing and camshafts with reguards to center line and overlap....Step back to 89 and see what happens....the system does have a knock sensor and if you need to find out to see if its working watch a scanner and tap the engine block with a hammer see what the timing does....

But honestly i havent heard the 1st ping or knock or run on.....just a suggestion to try it unless you have money to burn...

Ranger
01-15-11, 09:50 PM
I have run 87 in my 97 ETC for over 5 years now with no issues and got the same milage also.
But honestly i havent heard the 1st ping or knock or run on.
Same here. Could not tell the difference in my '97.

miwise
03-29-11, 07:36 AM
Ok. I'm back. Had to go thru cool down period from all my problems. I am going to try this swap. I may have access to a complete 2002 engine tranny wiring and PCM. could u elaborate on the repinning procedure for c101 AJ? I'm pretty good with electronics so I'm sure this is within my ability level tho I will not attempt anymore head gasket repairs. I wanna do this bc it's a very low milage package. It's already on cradle so I'm just gonna drop mine out and put this one in. Do the 02s need the transmission update for the solenoids?

ThumperPup
03-29-11, 12:52 PM
not sure if this would matter or not but also if your using a 02 and half sts for a donor that has the f55 and your going to use that PCM from the donor and you have the F45 that may not work out so great

miwise
03-29-11, 02:34 PM
I'm disabling the active suspension anyways although I'll have access to any parts from the donor I need

ThumperPup
03-29-11, 04:41 PM
how many miles on your seville ?
what shape are your rear shocks in just curiouse cause you say your disabling it so i asume for the rear you are going to go passive right ?
and i may be in the market for a good set of used shocks if the price is right and the miles are not to hi

AJxtcman
03-29-11, 05:48 PM
not sure if this would matter or not but also if your using a 02 and half sts for a donor that has the f55 and your going to use that PCM from the donor and you have the F45 that may not work out so great
The PCM spit out the same information on the Data line. The suspension module pick it up and uses it.

miwise
03-29-11, 08:20 PM
how many miles on your seville ?
what shape are your rear shocks in just curiouse cause you say your disabling it so i asume for the rear you are going to go passive right ?
and i may be in the market for a good set of used shocks if the price is right and the miles are not to hi

My rear shocks are on their way out and I don't really want to deal with all the extra expense. So I'm buying Monroe passive shocks from rockauto. My car has 165000 miles now

miwise
03-29-11, 08:36 PM
The guy I'm getting it from has the complete suspension tho. I'll pass the info on to him. He would maybe sell them to u

ThumperPup
03-29-11, 08:41 PM
The guy I'm getting it from has the complete suspension tho. I'll pass the info on to him. He would maybe sell them to u

ah ok
well if he has the F55 02.5 model year then that wont work
i can only use the F45 but if the miles are really low and shocks are good then id be intrested if it was the F45

miwise
03-29-11, 10:23 PM
I'll check the vin when I go get them when I get home. I'm working now

RippyPartsDept
03-30-11, 12:00 AM
in post #46 i think what AJ is saying is that it doesn't matter... you can upgrade an F45 to F55 ... if that's true that's actually pretty cool!

ThumperPup
03-30-11, 12:25 AM
in post #46 i think what AJ is saying is that it doesn't matter... you can upgrade an F45 to F55 ... if that's true that's actually pretty cool!

yeah i know there have been a few threads on this in the past year alone and i dont think they ever came to the conclusion that you could

so AJ it can be done ?

if so what would need to be done
a reprogram of the PCM
wich would mean a custom tune ?

i know i am intrested if it can be done
why spend 2000 on the F45 for sruts and shocks when i could spend the smae 2000 on used decent parts even less probalby 1000 on used F55 parts

ponyboyt
03-30-11, 07:09 AM
The PCM spit out the same information on the Data line. The suspension module pick it up and uses it.

sounds (looks) more to me like you dont touch the PCM. Just change the susp module and bolt the F55 in. Im on the hunt now for a seville with F55....

Oh and uhh.... i think i have 4 or 5 good sets of 2002 and under rear shocks... probably 2 sets for 97 under... I know i have a pair from an 01 with 145,000 km that held air for 4 months.

miwise
03-30-11, 08:41 AM
Yep. I think u just change the suspension module behind rear seat and then bolt on new struts. Since I'm going passive I don't have to change any of that for me. I'm going for reliability and a simplified setup. Less stuff to go out

ThumperPup
03-30-11, 08:49 AM
hmm i wasj ust looking on car-parts.com they have 2 rear thats showing grade A+ part status for 125 each with F55
and 2 front for 175 each used
hmm wow wondering if it would be worth a try to see if it would really work
be 1 of a kind 2000 sls with F55 hmm might try it out

ponyboyt
03-30-11, 09:57 AM
It will be two-of-a-kind :lildevil:

We'll see who gets there first, topkick is gassed up :lildevil:

ThumperPup
03-30-11, 10:33 AM
hey man bring it on
i know you love your caddys and got so many of them
so your in there in the race
but i can sadly brad that i have so much into this Seville at going on 13k+ not including purchase price
that i would put another 13k into here just for principle so dropping 1k on used parts for a suspension just to see if it works and taking the gamble weahte rit works or not im up to the challenge lol


dog dang the amount i have put into this car
i could have been driving a 07 STS 4 fully loaded
at the rate im going id add it up to about 1000 a month in the last year you know what i could have had for 1000 a month in payments lol

dont even ask where the money comes from id have to off you LOL

Ranger
03-30-11, 12:28 PM
You'd have been money ahead if you had junked it and bought my daughters '02 SLS with 50K on it.

ThumperPup
03-30-11, 03:59 PM
You'd have been money ahead if you had junked it and bought my daughters '02 SLS with 50K on it.


if you had been selling it back in April when i had the Hg's done i would have bought it from you but don't think you where selling it
i think i wanted to buy it back in August when the Tranny went out but couldn't come up with all that money at ones only had like 4k i think at the time and you where not able to carry a loan nore was your doughter for the 4 months i think i asked you to Cary it for maybe it was 5 i wanted it i remember that just couldnt swing that much at the time

i even went to my bank that i delt with since i was 19 years old
asked them for a personal loan told them i had a car in mind i wanted was going to be about 9k i only had 4 needed 5k
they looked at my credit saw it was good saw i have not had an Over draft in over 10 years
never late on a credit car payment in the last 5 years
and they said they couldnt give it to me because i didn['t have a steady income of at least 2k a month

94CaddyConcours
04-01-11, 05:44 AM
So I guess swapping a post 2000 N* into a pre 2000 N* work, but does the dash still function they same way?

miwise
04-01-11, 01:01 PM
From what I understand everything will function correctly. U have to get the donor PCM programmed to match the vin of your car. There are a handful of wires to repin on connector c101. That's my understanding.

AJxtcman
04-01-11, 09:16 PM
I can change the VIN, but the 99 car won't even look at the VIN

have I told you all how much this forum suck today. It is SOOOOOOOOOOO fing slow I am still typing and haven't seen the first word

Wow

AJxtcman
04-01-11, 09:19 PM
One of my favorite forums is gone. I think I should buy it. Any way it has a Seville Class II document on it I would like to link to. I have too many attachments to post another so I guess you all won't get to see it :hmm:

miwise
04-02-11, 06:38 AM
Ohhh. I didn't realize that the vin was irrelevant in 1999. Hmmm.

94CaddyConcours
04-02-11, 04:15 PM
have I told you all how much this forum suck today. It is SOOOOOOOOOOO fing slow I am still typing and haven't seen the first word

Wow

I thought it was my laptop was slow, took a while to load this page

miwise
04-03-11, 02:07 PM
I use an app. Tap talk for iPhone. Works pretty good