: Diminished Value



FaSTSCadillac
10-03-07, 07:21 PM
I recently got my STS back from the shop after someone hit me, they had Geico insurance. They were trying to give me refurbished parts so I went through my insurance company, State Farm. Has anyone here dealt with a diminished value claim? I called Geico and they tried to tell me that diminished value is just a gimic that car dealers use and doesn't really affect resale :banghead:. Im new to the forum and any suggestions would be great, thanks.

Curious George
10-03-07, 07:45 PM
It ain't no gimmick. With CarFax and other vehicle history services, anyone to whom you eventually sell or trade will know your car was in a collision.

porkfarm
10-03-07, 08:21 PM
Dang straight. Think about it.. Would you buy a car that showed a hit on carfax ? I would not.. Call them to the plate on this one and do not take no for an answer. If somebody hits me.. They (Insurance company ) just bought a caddy, and I would make sure of that !!!

urbanski
10-03-07, 08:31 PM
your insurance should fight for you. alternatively hire a lawyer. if you're in TX use this http://texasautoservices.com/

BMBSALES
10-03-07, 08:42 PM
i'd have to agree. just had my 06 sts totalled, and the only reason it got pushed to the total $ amount (30k, which was the 75% rule...value 40k), was because i fought the amount that they wanted to give me for depreciation. they offered 2k!

the rule of thumb is 25% decrease in value for any repairs over 25% of value. in my case, that was 10k depreciation!

don't let them bs you, get an attorney!

i also demanded the upgrade to the rental car, to match the quality of the sts. that figure also goes toward the "total" amount. in my case the rental car was going to be 3k, coupled with attorney asking for 12k in depreciation added to the original 20k estimate, pushed me over the total limit.

state farm cut check for nada book value within two days of having attorney, which i took and bought my sts-v with.....

porkfarm
10-03-07, 09:20 PM
Oh ya.. Forgot about the rental. I had a guy run over my volvo 940 with a cube truck. My car was parked. When the guy out of the truck and said.. Boy am I glad I got the extra insurance. I smiled. They wanted to give me a tin can for a rental. I made them give me something safe. BMW 530i with 120miles on it. ( 1996 maybe ? )
Needless to say the body shop took a lot longer to fix my volvo. I drove that BMW all summer. Orient Blue with Ivory int. it was sweet

scr
10-04-07, 02:32 AM
Hello everyone!

I have watched this forum off and on for a while, particularly the posts involving Cadillacs that have been crashed. As is the case on many message boards and car enthusiast forums, it seems there is a lot of misinformation when it comes to what a consumer is entitled to after an accident, and especially in recovery of diminished value (DV). As an expert in this field I'll be happy to pass along information that you may find helpful and field any questions that you may have. As an occupation, I primarily inspect autos that have been wrecked and repaired, writing reports that attorneys use in settling cases. This, of course, requires I value automobiles and testify as an expert in court cases as well. I live in Ohio and usually work OH, KY, and WV where I am most fluent in the laws. However, I know most of the people across the country that do what I do and I'll be happy to hook you up if you need help and are not in the states I service. I look forward to getting to know each of you and helping you in any way that I can.

David Williams

urbanski
10-04-07, 08:23 AM
Hello everyone!

I have watched this forum off and on for a while, particularly the posts involving Cadillacs that have been crashed. As is the case on many message boards and car enthusiast forums, it seems there is a lot of misinformation when it comes to what a consumer is entitled to after an accident, and especially in recovery of diminished value (DV). As an expert in this field I'll be happy to pass along information that you may find helpful and field any questions that you may have. As an occupation, I primarily inspect autos that have been wrecked and repaired, writing reports that attorneys use in settling cases. This, of course, requires I value automobiles and testify as an expert in court cases as well. I live in Ohio and usually work OH, KY, and WV where I am most fluent in the laws. However, I know most of the people across the country that do what I do and I'll be happy to hook you up if you need help and are not in the states I service. I look forward to getting to know each of you and helping you in any way that I can.

David WilliamsPM sent

Force-1
10-04-07, 09:16 AM
http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/insurance/20031201a1.asp

malcolm
10-04-07, 04:28 PM
My jackass neighbor backed into my parked 05 STS. 5K damage repaired by the best body shop around all GM OEM parts. Front and rear doors drivers side replaced. No frame or mechanical problems. Does a hit like this also diminish value? Are even minor fender benders value diminishers?

dkozloski
10-04-07, 04:40 PM
There are things in life that happen to you that you just have to suck it up and move on. Life is too short to waste your time looking for somebody else to bail you out of every little perceived hapinstance. There is a lot to life that is just plain luck. You win some, you lose some, and some you get rained out. As my old attorney friend used to say, "Make sure the battle is really worth winning before you declare a war that you might lose".

malcolm
10-04-07, 05:13 PM
There are things in life that happen to you that you just have to suck it up and move on. Life is too short to waste your time looking for somebody else to bail you out of every little perceived hapinstance. There is a lot to life that is just plain luck. You win some, you lose some, and some you get rained out. As my old attorney friend used to say, "Make sure the battle is really worth winning before you declare a war that you might lose".
Did I miss something in this thread? I was curious what kind of hit it takes to diminish value. I honestly don't give a rats ass what my car's diminished value is, it's a lease that goes back to GMAC. Just curious is all.

FaSTSCadillac
10-04-07, 05:57 PM
There are things in life that happen to you that you just have to suck it up and move on. Life is too short to waste your time looking for somebody else to bail you out of every little perceived hapinstance. There is a lot to life that is just plain luck. You win some, you lose some, and some you get rained out. As my old attorney friend used to say, "Make sure the battle is really worth winning before you declare a war that you might lose".

Why should I be penalized because one of their insured drivers was an idiot and spun out and smashed my front end. Maybe I'm just not rich enough, or just to young to think like you. I worked hard to buy me a Cadillac and my car is not what it was worth before he hit me. I was just asking about peoples experiences going about getting diminished value. And I doubt an attorney cares what battle his clients declare, as long as he is getting paid.

dkozloski
10-04-07, 06:30 PM
Why should I be penalized because one of their insured drivers was an idiot and spun out and smashed my front end. Maybe I'm just not rich enough, or just to young to think like you. I worked hard to buy me a Cadillac and my car is not what it was worth before he hit me. I was just asking about peoples experiences going about getting diminished value. And I doubt an attorney cares what battle his clients declare, as long as he is getting paid.
Contrary to popular belief, there are attorneys out there that advise their clients not to waste their time jousting with windmills. What are you going to do; sue the Almighty when a meteor hits your car?

FaSTSCadillac
10-04-07, 08:50 PM
Yeah thats what I'll do sue the almighty, I never said anything about me going to hire a lawyer and sue everyone. I was just asking some advice with dealing with an insurance company and you come talking this suck it up and I have a lawyer friend bs. I was asking people who know something about diminished value. Diminished value is a valid claim and I believe it would be stupid to not pursue it. So go find another topic to throw your negativity out.

dkozloski
10-04-07, 09:35 PM
I understand your theory of loss and I believe it's valid. The problem I would have trouble justifying, is hiring a mouthpiece at $250+/hr to argue it for me. Without the real threat of a winable lawsuit an insurance company is going to tell you to take a hike. Those guys aren't worried about you. They're worried about the precedent that might be set by a determined litigator and they're going to wheel out some big guns to fight you. Unless you're in a state where the issue has already been settled in your favor I think you're jousting at windmills. I don't think you'll have any trouble at all finding an attorney willing to to fight it right down to your last dime. Before hiring an attorney, pick a fight you can win.

BMBSALES
10-04-07, 10:48 PM
My jackass neighbor backed into my parked 05 STS. 5K damage repaired by the best body shop around all GM OEM parts. Front and rear doors drivers side replaced. No frame or mechanical problems. Does a hit like this also diminish value? Are even minor fender benders value diminishers?

no, it has to be a certain percentage of the nada value (in state farms case) before it shows up

thefred
10-05-07, 07:33 AM
My neighbor backed into my STS-V a few months ago. It needed to have the rear quarter replaced. There was $4,500 in damage and the repair was performed very well. State Farm offered $468 in diminished value. I called a diminished value appraiser who wrote a report indicating the diminished value was $4700. State Farm said that since our numbers were so far apart they wanted to have a thrid party review it. I asked who the third party was so I could contact them to see who they were and if they only worked for insurance companies. After talking to the guy and asking my guy about him, I agreed to let him review it. He came out and inspected the car and I got a check for $4.700 the next week.

I agree with Koz that you have to pick your battles. I happen to be an attorney and would not fight this fight if it wasn't worth it. It is a legitimate item for which you should be compensated in all states, but some insurance companies get it and others don't. Georgia happens to be one of the best states to recover this since State Farm got slapped in a lawsuit several years ago on this issue. I am currently fighting this battle for my sister in Maryland and its a whole different ballgame. She had a 2004 Honda Pilot with 16k miles and I was hit head on while driving her car. It had $11,000 in damage and the insurance company is only willing to pay $3,300 in diminished value and our appriaser says the diminished value is $7,500. We need to decide which way to go on this one. There are companies across the country that can help you in determining the amount and then you can decide whether the fight is worth it. If you want a recommendation, PM me and I'll let you know my experiences with a few companies. Good luck!

I just saw your pics in the other thread. This is probably worth pursuing if they don't make you a fair offer. You may have to call an appraiser on your own to get a report. They usually cost about $350. State Farm actually reimbursed me for the report too.

BMBSALES
10-05-07, 07:45 AM
I understand your theory of loss and I believe it's valid. The problem I would have trouble justifying, is hiring a mouthpiece at $250+/hr to argue it for me. Without the real threat of a winable lawsuit an insurance company is going to tell you to take a hike. Those guys aren't worried about you. They're worried about the precedent that might be set by a determined litigator and they're going to wheel out some big guns to fight you. Unless you're in a state where the issue has already been settled in your favor I think you're jousting at windmills. I don't think you'll have any trouble at all finding an attorney willing to to fight it right down to your last dime. Before hiring an attorney, pick a fight you can win.

you have a point, but in a way i disagree that they are willing to fight, in many cases over a small amount of money. legal cost them too, and it has to be weighed in. they are banking on us not trying to get it.
of course, it always helps if there is some sort of injury in the background. they seem more reasonable with the vehicle settlement, although they claim it's completely separate.

FaSTSCadillac
10-05-07, 12:24 PM
My neighbor backed into my STS-V a few months ago. It needed to have the rear quarter replaced. There was $4,500 in damage and the repair was performed very well. State Farm offered $468 in diminished value. I called a diminished value appraiser who wrote a report indicating the diminished value was $4700. State Farm said that since our numbers were so far apart they wanted to have a thrid party review it. I asked who the third party was so I could contact them to see who they were and if they only worked for insurance companies. After talking to the guy and asking my guy about him, I agreed to let him review it. He came out and inspected the car and I got a check for $4.700 the next week.

I agree with Koz that you have to pick your battles. I happen to be an attorney and would not fight this fight if it wasn't worth it. It is a legitimate item for which you should be compensated in all states, but some insurance companies get it and others don't. Georgia happens to be one of the best states to recover this since State Farm got slapped in a lawsuit several years ago on this issue. I am currently fighting this battle for my sister in Maryland and its a whole different ballgame. She had a 2004 Honda Pilot with 16k miles and I was hit head on while driving her car. It had $11,000 in damage and the insurance company is only willing to pay $3,300 in diminished value and our appriaser says the diminished value is $7,500. We need to decide which way to go on this one. There are companies across the country that can help you in determining the amount and then you can decide whether the fight is worth it. If you want a recommendation, PM me and I'll let you know my experiences with a few companies. Good luck!

I just saw your pics in the other thread. This is probably worth pursuing if they don't make you a fair offer. You may have to call an appraiser on your own to get a report. They usually cost about $350. State Farm actually reimbursed me for the report too.

Hello Fred, I appreciate the reply. I can not PM you yet since I haven't had my 20 posts. I'm taking my car to my Cadillac dealer today for an appraisal. Where did you find your appraiser, are they independent or will the dealership do the same thing? The damages to my car were over $10,000, and the blue book is $32,000. Sounds like you had a pretty good experience but I'm in Missouri. Although the MO dept of Ins. website says that at fault insurance companies do owe diminished values, there is even a reference case that was won. Although I in no way plan to fight this with an attorney, I'm just trying to find the best way to present evidence of lost value to Geico. Hopefully this appraisal will do that today. Thanks for the replies, I appreciate all the help.

thefred
10-05-07, 12:44 PM
The Cadillac dealer won't help. Their opinion is biased because the are not a disinterested party. The theory is that they will give you a large diminished value number so you will sell you car to them for less. You need an independent appraiser. The guy I used is based out of Georgia but is affiliated with people all over the county. Give him a call and tell him I sent you and he'll take care of you. The company is Collision Claim Associates, Inc. and his name is Richard Hixenbaugh and his number is 770.887.7626.

P.S. Since you have found good assitance here, consider becoming a Supporting Member. It doesn't cost much and you can certainly see see the value in it! (I don't get a cut, it just helps keep the forum going!)

urbanski
10-05-07, 07:05 PM
P.S. Since you have found good assitance here, consider becoming a Supporting Member. It doesn't cost much and you can certainly see see the value in it! (I don't get a cut, it just helps keep the forum going!)

and supporters have PMs enabled automaticly

FaSTSCadillac
10-05-07, 07:32 PM
The Cadillac dealer won't help. Their opinion is biased because the are not a disinterested party. The theory is that they will give you a large diminished value number so you will sell you car to them for less. You need an independent appraiser. The guy I used is based out of Georgia but is affiliated with people all over the county. Give him a call and tell him I sent you and he'll take care of you. The company is Collision Claim Associates, Inc. and his name is Richard Hixenbaugh and his number is 770.887.7626.

P.S. Since you have found good assitance here, consider becoming a Supporting Member. It doesn't cost much and you can certainly see see the value in it! (I don't get a cut, it just helps keep the forum going!)

I just joined the forums this week and will defenitely become a supporting member. I appreciate all the help, and have gotten some good information. Who do I tell him gave me his number, just Fred? I'll call him on Monday.

I just got the letter from Geico and it says that they need the following:

Statements from two dealers giving their opinion of the vehicle's loss in value, and documentation that will support their that statement. Such as recent transactions on comparable vehicles. They also need the comparable vehicles identification number.

Again thanks for the help

dkozloski
10-05-07, 07:34 PM
If I run my car off the road and wrap it around a tree but the insurance company decides to repair it; should I be able to collect from them for diminished value to compensate me in spite of my stupidity? That's kind of like murdering your mother and father, then throwing yourself on the mercy of the court on the grounds you're an orphan.

FaSTSCadillac
10-05-07, 07:50 PM
If I run my car off the road and wrap it around a tree but the insurance company decides to repair it; should I be able to collect from them for diminished value to compensate me in spite of my stupidity? That's kind of like murdering your mother and father, then throwing yourself on the mercy of the court on the grounds you're an orphan.

Go find another thread, your comments have nothing to do with the topic. I didn't cause the accident. If it was my fault I could see not getting diminished value. Stop with your hypothetical, negative, and idiotic analogies. Obviously people here have had experience with diminished value.

dkozloski
10-05-07, 10:11 PM
The part I'm having trouble with is that you're looking for compensation for a hypothetical loss. If you find somebody to sell your damaged car to that doesn't care about the repairs are you going to give the money back to the insurance company? Do you plan on telling a potential buyer, "I've got a real deal for you because this car has been wrecked and I've already cashed in on it"? This whole line of operation has real potential for mischief.

thefred
10-06-07, 08:57 AM
If I run my car off the road and wrap it around a tree but the insurance company decides to repair it; should I be able to collect from them for diminished value to compensate me in spite of my stupidity? That's kind of like murdering your mother and father, then throwing yourself on the mercy of the court on the grounds you're an orphan.
Actually, Koz, the law does provide for you to be compensated for diminished value under your own policy becuase it is a form of loss covered under insurance policies which we pay for and it is a legitimate item of damage. If you intentionally ram your car, that's a different story. There are actually clauses in many insurance policies that say that if you are seeking diminished value from your own company and can't agree,you each get an appraisal and then either split the difference or the two appraisers get together to pick a third and that opinion is determinative of the loss. As for abuse, I agree that there is potential for abuse in the system because the damages are somewhat difficuly to prove without actually selling the car. As for telling a buyer that the car had been wrecked, its buyer beware, and if a buyer doesn't ask the question these days, he is not too smart. Now, if the seller lies, that's a different story. There are appraisers that have been doing this kind of work for 20 years, so their experience takes some of the speculation out of it. I don't think people should just sue people for the sake of it or get things they are not entitled to, but I had just gotten my car 6 weeks earlier and my idiotic negligent neighbor backs into it and casues $4,500 damage. If I were selling it, do you really think that with a replaced quarter panel and $4,500 damage a buyer wouldn't pass or offer less?

FaSTS-Tell him Fred from Atlanta with the silver STS-V. He'll know who I am. And, don't get rattled by Koz. He has a wealth of knowledge on multiple topics and his perspective on things keeps it lively around here!

thefred
10-06-07, 09:05 AM
and supporters have PMs enabled automaticly
:yeah:

dkozloski
10-06-07, 11:48 AM
I am more bothered by the implementation of diminished value than the concept. I agree that the value of the car declines with major damage even skillfully repaired. However I don't see how it's ethical to be compensated for a loss that may never be realized. I can't get beyond the idea that being compensated for a loss and then big dealing your way around it is anything other than fraud. It's no problem if you wind up with a salvage or major damage notation on the title but if a seller can get it past the buyer by lying with a straight face it's fraud plain and simple. This is the way that horse traders have operated forever but it's just one more reason to not think well of a man who sells used cars. One upside is that it's almost guaranteed that the incident will make it onto a CarFax report.

z06bigbird
10-06-07, 02:11 PM
Go find another thread, your comments have nothing to do with the topic. I didn't cause the accident. If it was my fault I could see not getting diminished value. Stop with your hypothetical, negative, and idiotic analogies. Obviously people here have had experience with diminished value.

Whoa!! Somebody got up on wrong side of bed. Also forgot to wake up 'couth' side of brain.

thefred
10-06-07, 02:41 PM
I am more bothered by the implementation of diminished value than the concept. I agree that the value of the car declines with major damage even skillfully repaired. However I don't see how it's ethical to be compensated for a loss that may never be realized. I can't get beyond the idea that being compensated for a loss and then big dealing your way around it is anything other than fraud. It's no problem if you wind up with a salvage or major damage notation on the title but if a seller can get it past the buyer by lying with a straight face it's fraud plain and simple. This is the way that horse traders have operated forever but it's just one more reason to not think well of a man who sells used cars. One upside is that it's almost guaranteed that the incident will make it onto a CarFax report.
So according to your theory, the diminished value should only come into play when the vehicle was sold. But, should the insurance company be entitled to a lesser payment just because you decided to keep your car? Your loss is determined when the accident occurs. Obviously, the loss is greater at the time of the accident than it might be three or ten years later. Should the insurance company benefit from that? One problem is that if you wait to determine diminished value and you have two wrecks in your car, the two responsible insurance companies will blame each other claimg the other accident was more of a cause of the dimnished value. Once again, the non-responsible party would get dragged into a dispute for something that was not their fault. Another problem with waiting until the car is sold is that the statue of limitations on a damage claim would most often run before the car was sold since they are usually only 2-4 years. Then, the owner would not be able to pursue the claim because the law would bar the claim. Koz, your's is certainly an interesting prospective, but by getting rid of the diminished value claim, you would be punishing everyone to insure that fraudsters don't find another way to earn a living. Why stop there? Eliminate personal injury claims and so on.... But, I bet you'd agree that those should be eliminated too...

dkozloski
10-06-07, 05:13 PM
So according to your theory, the diminished value should only come into play when the vehicle was sold. But, should the insurance company be entitled to a lesser payment just because you decided to keep your car? Your loss is determined when the accident occurs. Obviously, the loss is greater at the time of the accident than it might be three or ten years later. Should the insurance company benefit from that? One problem is that if you wait to determine diminished value and you have two wrecks in your car, the two responsible insurance companies will blame each other claimg the other accident was more of a cause of the dimnished value. Once again, the non-responsible party would get dragged into a dispute for something that was not their fault. Another problem with waiting until the car is sold is that the statue of limitations on a damage claim would most often run before the car was sold since they are usually only 2-4 years. Then, the owner would not be able to pursue the claim because the law would bar the claim. Koz, your's is certainly an interesting prospective, but by getting rid of the diminished value claim, you would be punishing everyone to insure that fraudsters don't find another way to earn a living. Why stop there? Eliminate personal injury claims and so on.... But, I bet you'd agree that those should be eliminated too...
I have no problem with personal injury claims as long as they are based on actual and proven losses and not on deep pockets. I have no problem with diminshed value claims as long as there is a mechanism in place for the insurance company to recover their money with interest if the loss is unrealized. The insurance company is not a bottomless money pit to be mined by skillful shylocks. Unfortunately it has to be replenished from time to time by the premiums of the policy holders. The same guy preaching diminished value is the guy complaining about his insurance premiums increasing after he submits his claim. The system has to remain solvent for any of us to benefit. As more inventive claims are developed the premiums increase to match. Self destruction is never a good plan.

thefred
10-06-07, 07:21 PM
I have no problem with personal injury claims as long as they are based on actual and proven losses and not on deep pockets. I have no problem with diminshed value claims as long as there is a mechanism in place for the insurance company to recover their money with interest if the loss is unrealized. The insurance company is not a bottomless money pit to be mined by skillful shylocks. Unfortunately it has to be replenished from time to time by the premiums of the policy holders. The same guy preaching diminished value is the guy complaining about his insurance premiums increasing after he submits his claim. The system has to remain solvent for any of us to benefit. As more inventive claims are developed the premiums increase to match. Self destruction is never a good plan.
But that is the essence of the problem and why it is not an exact science. Accoding to your theory, should the insurance company come back and pay the difference if the amount they gave you was too low? It would never happen. Insurance companies don't want to leave these cases open. The insurance company wants to be rid of the claim. It appears that your opinion is based upon your belief that there are more wrongdoers trying to take advantage of insurance companies by filing a diminished value claim. But, lets look at the other side. I bought my car for $52,000 with 9,000 miles. At 12,000 miles it sustains $4,500 in damage including a new rear quarterpanel. The insurance company mailed me $468 for my diminished value. Is that fair? Do you really believe that if two identical vehicles were sitting next to each other and one is mine and the other has never been hit that the difference in value is $468? I think even you would agree that $468 is ludicrous. In defending the insurance idustry you have to remember, most people are not educated in these matters and the insurance companies get away with paying most people nothing or far less than they should. As for premiums, I don't make a fuss about it as long as it is going to be there to cover any claims I may have. In fact, whenever I get a dividend from State Farm, I always say, I wish they wouldn't send me this and just treat people more fairly.

dkozloski
10-06-07, 08:57 PM
The problem is that until you have actually experienced the loss you're hollering before you're hurt. If the buyer doesn't notice the repair you're willing to accept a double-dip payday. You want the insurance company to indemnify the possibility that he might notice the damage without the responsibility to make it right if he doesn't. They name roads after deals like that. Who am I to complain if the insurance company will go for it. They just make the other policy holders ante up for your windfall.

thefred
10-06-07, 11:06 PM
Actually, that's not true. The injury occurs at the time of the accident. Just like a personal injury situation. An injured person asks for pain and suffering that he will endure in the future. Are you suggesting that if he wakes up one day and feels better that he should reimburse the insurance company? Likewise, would you expect the insurance company to pony up for injuries someone later found out to have resulted from an accident once they had signed a release? It would NEVER happen. Furthermore, its not a windfall. I still would rather not have had the damage or repair. Knowing all the STS-Vs out there that have never been hit, I'd never buy one that had been hit for $4700 less. No way. And even thought they did a very good job on the repair, anyone that buys an STS-V is sure going to be able to see that this one has been repaired merely by looking at the welds inside the trunk. Plus, as you say, there's always CarFax. Your double-dip scenario has nary a chance of happening in any case.

dkozloski
10-07-07, 12:01 AM
Actually, that's not true. The injury occurs at the time of the accident. Just like a personal injury situation. An injured person asks for pain and suffering that he will endure in the future. Are you suggesting that if he wakes up one day and feels better that he should reimburse the insurance company? Likewise, would you expect the insurance company to pony up for injuries someone later found out to have resulted from an accident once they had signed a release? It would NEVER happen. Furthermore, its not a windfall. I still would rather not have had the damage or repair. Knowing all the STS-Vs out there that have never been hit, I'd never buy one that had been hit for $4700 less. No way. And even thought they did a very good job on the repair, anyone that buys an STS-V is sure going to be able to see that this one has been repaired merely by looking at the welds inside the trunk. Plus, as you say, there's always CarFax. Your double-dip scenario has nary a chance of happening in any case.
Insurance claims are amended everyday to cover hidden damage. Fair is fair. On the other hand, if the damage anticipated isn't realized the money should be given back because you haven't earned it. The only way to get around it is to apply situational ethics. If it doesn't bother you why should I lose sleep over it. Where are we headed and why is the whole country in this handbasket.

thefred
10-07-07, 01:40 PM
I think you give the insurance industry too much credit. They make decisions based upon their best economic position. The insurance companies pay money today to settle claims because they don't want to undertake the risk to wait because they may owe more. If they pay you today you sign a release taking them off the hook and releasing their liability. They won't come back and give you more. Koz, I appreciate the respectful debate we are having and I just wonder what you would do if your car sustained significant damage at someone else's fault just after you bought it. Keeping in mind that if you waited until you sold the car you might be barred from making a claim, would you seek or take the diminished value dollars?

dkozloski
10-07-07, 05:03 PM
I think you give the insurance industry too much credit. They make decisions based upon their best economic position. The insurance companies pay money today to settle claims because they don't want to undertake the risk to wait because they may owe more. If they pay you today you sign a release taking them off the hook and releasing their liability. They won't come back and give you more. Koz, I appreciate the respectful debate we are having and I just wonder what you would do if your car sustained significant damage at someone else's fault just after you bought it. Keeping in mind that if you waited until you sold the car you might be barred from making a claim, would you seek or take the diminished value dollars?
I've been in exactly that position and had no desire to have someone else pick my chestnuts out of the fire. Sh!t happens. Sometimes it goes in your favor and sometimes against. I've had so many good things happen in my life that I have no grounds for complaint and I'm way ahead of the game. I have no need for an accounting of my life to be an up to the minute "Even Steven" situation. I'm content to wait years for my time to come around again. Life is too short to sweat the small stuff. I'm retired from the rat race and I'm content to sit here and watch the young guys have at it at Taladega.

thefred
10-07-07, 05:46 PM
I've been in exactly that position and had no desire to have someone else pick my chestnuts out of the fire. Sh!t happens. Sometimes it goes in your favor and sometimes against. I've had so many good things happen in my life that I have no grounds for complaint and I'm way ahead of the game. I have no need for an accounting of my life to be an up to the minute "Even Steven" situation. I'm content to wait years for my time to come around again. Life is too short to sweat the small stuff. I'm retired from the rat race and I'm content to sit here and watch the young guys have at it at Taladega.
I still have a while before I'll be at the same point in life as you. Maybe I'll be there one day. I guess it would be nice to say "Hey, I know you're responsible for this damage I sustained, but hell, I'll just let it go." But, for now, I have too much to be responsible for to forgo legitimate claims where I'll end up with the short end of the stick if I don't look out for myself.

dkozloski
10-07-07, 06:03 PM
I still have a while before I'll be at the same point in life as you. Maybe I'll be there one day. I guess it would be nice to say "Hey, I know you're responsible for this damage I sustained, but hell, I'll just let it go." But, for now, I have too much to be responsible for to forgo legitimate claims where I'll end up with the short end of the stick if I don't look out for myself.
It's only money. Someday you'll be more worried about your soul and how people will remember you.

MM STS
10-07-07, 06:25 PM
I still have a while before I'll be at the same point in life as you. Maybe I'll be there one day. I guess it would be nice to say "Hey, I know you're responsible for this damage I sustained, but hell, I'll just let it go." But, for now, I have too much to be responsible for to forgo legitimate claims where I'll end up with the short end of the stick if I don't look out for myself.
I was told the insurance companies first deny the claims hoping 50% will accept and not pursue it any further. They know what they are required to pay and yet they try to pull the wool over everyones eyes and get out of paying. Just look at all those people in the path of hurricane Katrina that are still being denied. Seems to me getting whats owed you is something that should be pursued. If the DV is $10,000 and you hold onto another 7 yrs. Should you give it back because the car is no longer worth $10,000? If your '06 AWD is hit and you go to trade and the dealers appraiser knocks off $10,000 next year are you going to be happy knowing the car was repaired properly? Mike

dkozloski
10-07-07, 07:06 PM
I was told the insurance companies first deny the claims hoping 50% will accept and not pursue it any further. They know what they are required to pay and yet they try to pull the wool over everyones eyes and get out of paying. Just look at all those people in the path of hurricane Katrina that are still being denied. Seems to me getting whats owed you is something that should be pursued. If the DV is $10,000 and you hold onto another 7 yrs. Should you give it back because the car is no longer worth $10,000? If your '06 AWD is hit and you go to trade and the dealers appraiser knocks off $10,000 next year are you going to be happy knowing the car was repaired properly? Mike
That's one reason why it always makes more sense to arrange a private sale. Why let a dealer's appraiser hold you hostage. You know what your car is worth and what you need to get. I made the best deal I could for the STS and sold my CTS at my leisure. If the car gets clobbered, that's life. When you've stared the grim repeater in the eye and told him, "Not today!" it's hard to obsess about DV and tradeins. As your life progresses your priorities shift.

BMBSALES
10-07-07, 09:37 PM
That's one reason why it always makes more sense to arrange a private sale. .

YEAH, IN A PERFECT WORLD!

dkozloski
10-07-07, 10:05 PM
YEAH, IN A PERFECT WORLD!
Hmmmm. The same guy all agitated about losing out on a diminished value claim on his insurance is willing to run to a dealer and let them take him to the cleaners with a trade in value on his car that verges on theft. We need a little consistancy here. In one case the value is lowered by the accident. In the other case the value is given away by a pigeon all starry eyed by the vision of his new ride that he can't wait to claim.

thefred
10-07-07, 10:20 PM
To many, time is money, Koz. While you are certainly right that you would get more in a private sale, many are willing to forego the dollars for the effort and issues of a private sale. My brother in law bought his parents car from them. He knew the history of the car since they had purchased it new. There was nothing wrong with the car. He had it about two weeks and realized he didn't need it. He sold it AS-IS. A week later the lady who purchased it from him came at him with a lawyer saying the car needed a bunch of work and wanting him to pay for it or give her the money back. On your average car, I know I wouldn't want that hassle for the difference in what the dealer would give. I have sold cars in the past by private sale so it really depends on the difference between what the dealer offers and what you believe you could get in a private sale. But, what you have to remember is that when one trades their car in, they are knowingly taking less for the convenience. The situation is a bit different when it comes to diminished value. The aggrieved party didn't knowingly make that choice.

dkozloski
10-07-07, 11:05 PM
Private sales in most states are, by law, "as is" and not subject to recourse by the purchaser unless there were express promises made and recorded that were breached. I've sold dozens of cars and never had anybody come at me with a lawyer. Another point is that the purchase and ownership of a luxury automobile is a self-indulgance that can in no way be justified economically. It's all downhill once the purchase is made and subject to a whole range of vagueries very few of which can be controlled in any way. If your pecuniary situation is so precarious that it hinges on the generosity of an insurance company you need to rethink the whole process. My attitude toward my toys has always been that if need be I can walk away from them and never look back. My family and my country will always come first. Automobiles barely make the chart. I started out with a clunker and I can always go back to a clunker. In fact, I've done just that when I was on hard times.

thefred
10-08-07, 10:39 AM
Again, I will agree with you that a luxury car is a self-indulgence that can't be justified economically. However, it is thankfully one that I can afford. I thank you for your concern, and while I am not Donald Trump, my pecuniary situation is not at all precarious. Just because I'm not teetering on the brink of bankruptcy does not mean that I should walk away from what is rightfully mine unless for some reason I decide to do so. I would have been just fine to have kept my car and paid for it and not had to deal with this situation at all. The bottom line is that I now have damaged goods and it is someone else's fault and that's why there is insurance.

dkozloski
10-08-07, 11:17 AM
We're zeroing in on the crux of the matter. The way I see it, I'm willing to take my lumps, roll with the blow, and move on to other, more important, matters. You, on the other hand, want sombody else to compensate you for your tough luck and have chosen an insurance company. It's an honest difference of opinion on how life is meant to work. I admit that I've sought retribution when somebody damaged my car through carelessness. In fact, the last time it happened the other party forfeit their car and did jail time for failure to provide proof of financial responsibility. My insurance company repaired the damage under the uninsured motorists coverage but I had to eat the deductible. My insurance rates increased slightly as well. My car had diminshed value I'm sure, but I disposed of it in a private sale to a party that wasn't concerned about it. I could have gone after my deductible in small claims court but I decided it wasn't worth the hassel. I moved on, got a great deal on a new V8 AWD STS, and life goes on.

thefred
10-08-07, 12:02 PM
I have had my share with unfortunate incidents as well. Someone hit me and ran and I (stupidly) chased him down. The police came and arrested the driver as it was a stolen car. The prosecutor seemed to have missed the notation about the stolen car charge and let him walk out paying a fine for hit and run. My uninsured motorist paid the claim but I had to pay the deductible. The line isn't drawn as to whom you want to compensate you for your tough luck, its about how much you are willing to write off for the hassle. I could have gone after the driver for my deductible, but it wasn't worth it. Here, we're not talking about a few hundred dollars, we're talking about thousands. There is a difference.

dkozloski
10-08-07, 12:51 PM
I have had my share with unfortunate incidents as well. Someone hit me and ran and I (stupidly) chased him down. The police came and arrested the driver as it was a stolen car. The prosecutor seemed to have missed the notation about the stolen car charge and let him walk out paying a fine for hit and run. My uninsured motorist paid the claim but I had to pay the deductible. The line isn't drawn as to whom you want to compensate you for your tough luck, its about how much you are willing to write off for the hassle. I could have gone after the driver for my deductible, but it wasn't worth it. Here, we're not talking about a few hundred dollars, we're talking about thousands. There is a difference.
I still maintain that diminished vaue is a theoretical loss that isn't realized until you dispose of the vehicle and may never be realized if the stars correctly align. How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? There are too many variables to fairly quantify the theoretical loss. My guess is that the insurance companies will factor the possibility of having to pay claims of this type into their rates and the rest of us will be paying your claim. They win again. It's just like dealing with a London bookmaker. He'll make book on anything that moves. Another local factor is that around here you drive on ice covered roads 5 to 6 months of the year and there are very few cars that don't get pranged at some time or another. It goes with the territory.

malcolm
10-08-07, 03:48 PM
Maybe I'm not paying attention but in these parts of NJ whenever I trade a car the guy looks in the book and gives me a number on the spot. No carfax and barely a glance at the car. It's going to the wholesaler and nobody cares. It's my option to negotiate for a better price or walk or trade. I usually trade because I am a lazy POS and can't be bothered fooling atound with want ads or for sale signs.

Da Dark Jedi
10-09-07, 10:26 AM
Thanks for this thread. I've learned alot!

Johnc
10-25-07, 02:53 PM
My car, while parked, was hit by a run away dump truck. The striking vehicle insurance accepted the liability but refused to total because they said it could be repaired for less than its market value. They also refused to just take the car, pay me its value, and dispose of it as they wished e.g., auction. After 46 days in the repair shop my car has been returned with "severe structual damage" according to two car dealer appraisals. My car prior to impact was worth $15000, now only $7500. This repaired damage must be disclosed when I sell the car. The insurance company that inisisted on repairing did not dislose that following the repair I will own a structually damaged car and the damage must be revealed, as required by law, because such damage may have compromised the structual integrity of the vehicle.

I'm struggling with trying to find a lawyer who is willing to assist me and I think I may have found an appraisal service that can properly document this loss so that it can be used in court, if necessary.

This also happened in Maryland and I would appreciate any resources that can help.

If your car's frame, unibody, or passenger cage is damaged and repaired you should have it appraised by someone with competence in diminished value. It might be a death trap in the next collision.

BMBSALES
10-25-07, 07:12 PM
Don't give up the good fight brother!

LuvMyV8
10-26-07, 02:13 PM
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that most buyers who purchase through private sale are using a Carfax report these days. My last car had three minor fender benders in parking lots (I knew the person I bought it from), resulting in anything from paint work to a new bumper. When I sold the car, the potential buyers were turned off by the mention of THREE accidents. The report doesn't say that the dollar amount was very low. So just the fact that it is reported greatly diminishes the value because the buyer is suspicious of the vehicle. I've sold three vehicles in recent years, and each time, at least one person pulled a Carfax for the car.

My husband's truck was recently side swiped by a scool bus, resulting in the entire side being repaired and repainted. The damage was about 4k, and the initial DV offer was for $11 (according to their "formula"). This is in Georgia, where everyone thinks we rack up large sums of money because of the State Farm case. After months of arguing, my husband finally settled for $500.

Are insurance rates higher because of DV claims? I certainly think that bodily injury claims far exceed DV claims in monetary amount, and we all know how many of those are false.

dkozloski
10-26-07, 03:45 PM
What I've seen done is for the owner to take a check that's supposed to cover the repairs and pocket it as if the car was totaled and sell the wreck to somebody who repairs these cars on the side. That way you get as much as you're going to get out of the vehicle and you're out from under the liability. These things never wind up benefitting anybody very much.

thefred
10-29-07, 09:10 PM
My car, while parked, was hit by a run away dump truck. The striking vehicle insurance accepted the liability but refused to total because they said it could be repaired for less than its market value. They also refused to just take the car, pay me its value, and dispose of it as they wished e.g., auction. After 46 days in the repair shop my car has been returned with "severe structual damage" according to two car dealer appraisals. My car prior to impact was worth $15000, now only $7500. This repaired damage must be disclosed when I sell the car. The insurance company that inisisted on repairing did not dislose that following the repair I will own a structually damaged car and the damage must be revealed, as required by law, because such damage may have compromised the structual integrity of the vehicle.

I'm struggling with trying to find a lawyer who is willing to assist me and I think I may have found an appraisal service that can properly document this loss so that it can be used in court, if necessary.

This also happened in Maryland and I would appreciate any resources that can help.

If your car's frame, unibody, or passenger cage is damaged and repaired you should have it appraised by someone with competence in diminished value. It might be a death trap in the next collision.

I have an appraiser and a lawyer for you. I'm going through this right now with my sister's car in Maryland. Since you can't PM me unless you become a supporting member (which you should), post a way to contact you so I can get you the info.

P.S. Koz-you knew I'd be back!!