: supercharger on my eldo



Pimpin_Whity
04-23-04, 07:38 PM
i want to supercharge my N*. i have some questions, is a supercharger bad for my engine? how much more fuel will it use? how much will it cost? and how much horsepower will it add?
thanks for any help :)

Pimpin_Whity
04-23-04, 07:39 PM
one more thing, where can i get one?

ShadowLvr400
04-23-04, 09:32 PM
97 Eldo? Guess what, no s/c out, the programming of the OBD2 computer's too big a pain so far. You can get a s/c anywhere, getting it to work is a whole other story.

Anthony Cipriano
04-23-04, 10:32 PM
i want ot supercharge my N*. i have some questions, is a supercharger bad for my engine? how much more fuel will it use? how much will it cost? and how much horsepower will it add?
thanks for any help :)

Bad for the engine? Anything that makes a lot of power is "bad" for an engine. A supercharger takes a lot of power to drive it - as much as 80 or 90hp. So that gets added to the load on the crank and pistons and such in addition to the power added to the rear wheels from the effect of the supercharger. In other words, if you supercharge a 300hp engine and get 400hp, the engine is actually making about 480 HP - just the supercharger eats up about 80 of them to drive it. Is this hard on the engine? Of course. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't know what they are talking about.

If you are really worried about how much fuel it will use you cannot afford a supercharger on your engine. Horsepower is all about burning fuel. The more fuel you can burn the more horsepower you can make. And since a supercharger "wastes" a lot of power to drive it it'll use that much more fuel. At part throttle cruising the supercharger doesn't use much more fuel but there's still belt drive and friction and such. It'll hurt the fuel economy considerably.

It will add as much horsepower as you can generate boost with. An engine is an airpump. The more air you can pump into and through the engine the more fuel you can burn and the more power you can make. A supercharger can easily add 100 horsepower if done correctly.

I don't think you're likely to ever see a supercharger "kit" for a Northstar. It's just too difficult to reprogram the factory computer and make it work with boost. The Northstar electronic controls are heavily integrated with the vehicle electronics, control the transmission also and is difficult to hack into. An aftermarket controller could be made to work the engine but the tranny and the communications with the car would still have to be addressed.

Pimpin_Whity
04-24-04, 12:26 AM
thanks alot guys, just as i expected. i know a guy who's an expert in caddies and works in a dealership, he has access to all the electoric diagnostic and programming stuff :hmm:. i'll try to find out if he can do anything about that problem.

elwesso
04-24-04, 11:57 AM
Anthony. what would you think about a turbo setup? I assume not much differently than a SC

EDIT: Wouldnt you say the Northstar would be able to handle the power, for say a 10psi or lower setup?

Anthony Cipriano
04-24-04, 05:44 PM
Anthony. what would you think about a turbo setup? I assume not much differently than a SC

EDIT: Wouldnt you say the Northstar would be able to handle the power, for say a 10psi or lower setup?
Turbos work. They're just another type of "supercharger". A turbo pumps more air in and is driven by the exhaust gas stream. One could argue that a turbo might be a little "easier" on an engine than a supercharger since the parasitic losses are less (no belt drive to the device) so all the boost goes into making power to the wheels. Turbos add a lot of load to the exhaust side of the system and do increase the pressure on the piston due to the backpressure increase in the exhaust side before the turbo so they aren't free of added load. And, no matter what is increasing the power the engine will be under more distress while making that power, supercharger, turbocharger, nitrous, etcetera.

I didn't say the Northstar couldn't "handle" it - just indicating that nothing is free. When making more power an engine is going to be under more distress.

Sometimes the definition of "handling it" needs to be clearified. Lot's of people figure if the engine lives for 12 seconds under full load or full boost or with that 125 shot of nitrous than it can "handle it". The factory OEM definition is a little different. The engine has to be able to operate at full power constantly for upwards of 250-300 hours. The fact that the Northstar, for example, can live at 300hp for like 300 hours means that there's just a little reserve built into it. :p It can handle considerably more power for short periods of time.

10psi of boost is rather conservative I would say and a production engine should be able to handle that boost level for short periods of time if the correct fuel and spark for that boost level is delivered - which is where most people get into trouble since they either do not/can not reprogram the PCM or have the wrong settings in there if they do.

Pimpin_Whity
04-24-04, 06:09 PM
which values need to be changed in order for a supercharger to work properly?

Anthony Cipriano
04-24-04, 06:46 PM
which values need to be changed in order for a supercharger to work properly?

It's a major major undertaking to "reprogram" the PCM for a supercharger. All the spark and fuel tables are affected for starters. Even if you could reprogram them what values would you use for spark and fuel delivery under boost? The OEM will spend days on an engine dyno developing and refining those values. You can't just pull them out of the air.

The most important thing that would have to be done is rescale all the fuel and spark tables and MAP sensor - tables for two atmospheres. The current PCM will only "comprehend" one atmosphere ie. 14.7psi or sea level barometer. With a super/turbo charger the intake pressure can go to two atmospheres. That's what "boost" is - more pressure than atmospheric. The MAP sensor needs to be replaced with a two atmosphere capable MAP sensor and the PCM tables have to be rescaled to comprehend that. Big job! Not something that can be done with a Tech2 in a dealership.

Don't forget about putting a larger, higher capacity, higher pressure fuel pump in the car as the fuel pressure will have to go up equivalent with the boost. Also, on a 96 or later car, the MAF will become a restriction with a blower so a larger MAF will be required and the MAF tables in the PCM will need to be rescaled and reprogrammed. These are just the things that come to mind off the top of my head. They should be enough to keep someone busy for quite awhile if they are hacking into the production PCM though.

Pimpin_Whity
04-24-04, 11:42 PM
i knew how superchargers and turbos worked but i had no idea u had to go through all that crap to put them on. is it only because of the electonics on the caddy or is it like that for every car?


they should be enough to keep someone busy for quite awhile if they are hacking into the production PCM though.what if i get one of those "hacked" chips that take away your speed limiter and stuff like that. would it be easeir?

ShadowLvr400
04-24-04, 11:50 PM
Hey Anthony, I got an idea. How about we give you a s/c and some parts, set you up with a test car, and say, "Get to work." :) The curse of being good Anthony, we'll make you get a kit together for us. :lildevil:

Pimpin_Whity
04-24-04, 11:56 PM
Hey Anthony, I got an idea. How about we give you a s/c and some parts, set you up with a test car, and say, "Get to work." :) The curse of being good Anthony, we'll make you get a kit together for us. :lildevil:sounds like a good idea :) , we need to ask him very nicely though ;)

ShadowLvr400
04-25-04, 08:29 AM
Yea. Hey Anthony, buddy, pal, friend. Want a challenge? Could you please put together a s/c kit for our cars and get the programming right? We'd love you a long time. :) Here, we'll give you Pimpin Whitey. He may not look like much, but he's loyal and can cook. (kidding, i have no idea) Hehehe

elwesso
04-25-04, 10:37 AM
LOL!!

Thats golden...

Pimpin_Whity
04-25-04, 06:45 PM
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OPTIONS:
The easiest way to explain the options is to point out what cannot be done. We cannot at this time change the shift points and we are still working on the ability to change the MAF.

All other portions of the computer can be changed to match your custom needs. Obviously we need to know about any custom attributes on your car before we program it otherwise you will be disappointed and the reprogram the second time around will not be free.


what about this?

ShadowLvr400
04-25-04, 09:29 PM
Heard about them, I don't know that anyone's actually tried yet. Nor do I know exactly how much they can do.

elwesso
04-25-04, 09:55 PM
OBDII will actually work well with a low boost setup, and should be just fine for around 5-10psi.....

Pimpin_Whity
04-27-04, 06:05 PM
hey, Anthony, how much HP do you think a 13psi S/C is going to give me :hmm:

capn
04-28-04, 10:05 PM
go to www.chrfab.com (http://www.chrfab.com) they have alot of supercharger and turbo setups...they cost but would be worth it

Anthony Cipriano
04-29-04, 01:22 PM
hey, Anthony, how much HP do you think a 13psi S/C is going to give me :hmm:

13psi supercharger setup? Not likely unless you can find one big ass blower. Even a large Eaton style blower will only make about 8psi

Unless you can reprogram the PCM for the extra fuel and spark retard required 13psi will not give much if any more power - and not even for very long before the engine melts a piston. If you could get 13psi and get the fuel and spark correct it should make about 100-120 more horsepower. If you could get 13psi and the correct fuel and spark.

eldorado1
04-29-04, 02:24 PM
For every 14.7psi increase in manifold pressure, you can roughly double the HP given the correct fuel increase. Chrfab has a N* running on 20lbs that puts out 800hp

http://www.chrfab.com/images/CHRF%20Images/MVC-534E.JPG

Anthony Cipriano
04-29-04, 02:32 PM
For every 14.7psi increase in manifold pressure, you can roughly double the HP given the correct fuel increase. Chrfab has a N* running on 20lbs that puts out 800hp

http://www.chrfab.com/images/CHRF%20Images/MVC-534E.JPG


That is a good rule of thumb. Two atmospheres of manifold pressure makes twice as much power as one atmosphere - but it ignores the parasitic loss that the supercharger requires to power it. At one atmosphere of boost (14.7psi or two atmospheres of manifold absolute pressure) a supercharger is going to eat up 100-120hp to drive it. So that has to be subtracted from the "rule of thumb" estimate using manifold pressure.

eldorado1
04-29-04, 03:31 PM
hence "roughly" :D

Pimpin_Whity
04-29-04, 06:35 PM
For every 14.7psi increase in manifold pressure, you can roughly double the HP given the correct fuel increase. Chrfab has a N* running on 20lbs that puts out 800hp

http://www.chrfab.com/images/CHRF%20Images/MVC-534E.JPG
Thanks.

I dont think that's going to fit under the hood of my eldo :suspense:

macutty
04-30-04, 11:21 AM
Why would SCing a N* be any different than a mustang? camero? corvette?


All these vehicles can be "boosted" with out the need to reprogram the ECU?

I was under the impression that a stock ECU was fine untill you started messing with cams and such.

I know from experience in my mustang that all you need to super charge it is a larger fuel pump, MSD 6AL-BTM, blaster coil, and re-calibrated MAS (actually, I had a speed density '88 and didn't even need that).

Why would there be so much more involved with the caddy's?

Anthony Cipriano
04-30-04, 11:30 AM
Why would SCing a N* be any different than a mustang? camero? corvette?


All these vehicles can be "boosted" with out the need to reprogram the ECU?

I was under the impression that a stock ECU was fine untill you started messing with cams and such.

I know from experience in my mustang that all you need to super charge it is a larger fuel pump, MSD 6AL-BTM, blaster coil, and re-calibrated MAS (actually, I had a speed density '88 and didn't even need that).

Why would there be so much more involved with the caddy's?

I would say that it is a mistake to assume that you can supercharge any engine without compensating for the extra airflow and boost in the PCM calibration whether it be a new "chip" or a reflashed PCM. You could probably get away with very mild levels of boost for short duration spurts as most engines are protected with extra fuel and knock sensors for long duration runs as they are designed but certainly putting a system on that develops any serious boost or extra horsepower will require a re-calibration so that the engine is not damaged under load.

Some of the applications you talk about have fuel injection systems that are somewhat "stand alone" in the vehicle. Not thoroughly integrated into the car's electronics. Also, there is a much greater demand for superchargers and other aftermarket parts on the Camaro's, Mustangs, Vettes, etc. which drives the aftermarket manufacturers to spend the money to develop the kits and modifications to do the supercharger packages. There is limited demand for the Northstar supercharger setups, the Northstar engine was exclusively a transverse FWD arrangement until this year (which really complicates the supercharger installation and belt drive) and the electronics and fuel injection system is thoroughly integrated into the vehicle electronic systems on the Cadillacs making it very difficult to get by without reprogramming or compensating the system for the boost. None of the applications you mentioned are TFWD - which points out the uniqueness of the Northstar powertrain and partially answers your question.

ShadowLvr400
05-01-04, 12:22 AM
Ok Anthony, want a tranverse that gets the s/c, 3800 and S/C 3800. Powers half of GM's fleet. Thats transverse and a roots was chucked on.

Anthony Cipriano
05-01-04, 12:37 AM
Ok Anthony, want a tranverse that gets the s/c, 3800 and S/C 3800. Powers half of GM's fleet. Thats transverse and a roots was chucked on.

What about it? I didn't say that it couldn't be done - just that a transverse application makes it more difficult - specifically for a V8 that is longer and larger and has less room.

The post I was answering the question about supercharging and "why not" was specifically asking about the aftermarket applications and the "add on" supercharger kits and why there were none for the Northstar and why was it different from the Camaro and Mustang. Read macutty's question.... "Why would SCing a N* be any different than a mustang? camero? corvette?"

The 3800 is shorter than a V8 Northstar and it makes it easier. The 3800 supercharged application is also not intercooled which makes it much easier and smaller to package also. Most any supercharged late model engine is intercooled for maximum power. The 3800 is supercharged specifically to add more low end torque and runs fairly low levels of boost without an intercooler. The original versions of that application were not even marketed as "performance" engines due to the fact that the specific output was still relatively low for a supercharged application. They were installed in heavier luxury Buicks that were relying on the supercharger to make up for the deficiency in displacement of the 3.8 v6 in that application. Only with the advent of a more efficient roots blower rotor set has the specific output been brought up enough to make them a "performance" option. Even then, the use of a v8 will overshadow the supercharged 3800. Look at the Pontiac Bonneville. The former SSEi 3800 supercharged package was replaced by the Northstar in the GXP as the maximum performance package.
The supercharged 3800 does not power "half of GM's fleet". It's still a fairly low volume engine. The 3800 is in a lot of cars but in the normally aspirated trim.

Pimpin_Whity
05-05-04, 04:37 PM
anthony, i have one more question for you. i've seen plenty of stangs with 13+psi s/c and you said it can't be done :hmm:

Anthony Cipriano
05-06-04, 12:51 PM
Sal Collaziano, i have one more question for you. i've seen plenty of stangs with 13+psi s/c and you said it can't be done :hmm:

I didn't say it "can't be done". Anything can be done if you spend enough money. It's impossible to account for all the engines and applications and modifications possible in a simple forum answer. I try to answer the direct question at hand so please don't take it out of context and apply it to other applications. There are always exceptions to the "rule".

Getting 13psi out of a supercharger isn't impossible but at that pressure ratio with a roots style blower the charge air temp is going to be very high requiring an intercooler to make serious power. On a smaller engine at lower power levels 13psi out of a roots blower is more probably than on a larger displacement/higher out put engine. 13psi is a lot of boost with mechanical supercharger. Not sure what setups you are seeing that on. It's certainly possible, though. Many things come into play such as the drive ratio of the blower, etcetera that all lead to answering the question of how long will the blower live, is there an intercooler, etcetera. Many supercharger setups can be overdriven to higher levels of boost but the superchargers themselves will not live very long due to heat buildup and rotor scuffing. My view point is typically biased toward a system performance that can be maintained constantly for hours - not a "drag race" setup that only lives for 10 seconds at a time.

Please understand that even a superficial discussion of supercharging engines could easily fill a book or two. It's hard to cover all applications and setups on a message board so I try to provide the most concise answer to the immediate question/comment at hand - so it can't possibly cover all applications.

I've heard about a compound supercharged engine that has a supercharger AND two turbochargers. It makes like 60psi of boost. At 60psi the intake pressure is blowing the intake valves open as it is not possible to get intake valve springs strong enough to keep them closed. Anything is possible especially if it only has to survive for 7 seconds at a time.

Pimpin_Whity
05-06-04, 07:25 PM
i see, i think :hmm:. I want to have over 400hp....say about 410-430hp, i don't just want to pun on a supercharger to do it. i want to change the exhaust, intake and whatever else is needed to achieve that hp. what level of boost do you think i'll be looking at? can i get that much hp out of a n/a N*?

elwesso
05-07-04, 10:40 PM
IMO on FWD this is hardly a bad idea. Phil (shadowlvr) has a hard enough time with his nitrous, due to traction...

Sinister Angel
05-07-04, 11:09 PM
It seems to me if you wanted to get 13 pounds of boost, you'd be better going with a Centrifugal blower, unfortunately, you don't get as much grunt right off the bat, but my understanding is that up top its better.

capn
05-08-04, 12:24 AM
It seems to me if you wanted to get 13 pounds of boost, you'd be better going with a Centrifugal blower, unfortunately, you don't get as much grunt right off the bat, but my understanding is that up top its better.
i believe your thinking of exhaust driven turbo charger, because it takes time for those to "spool" up and actually start making psi. while centrifugal is directly connected to the engine and boost depends on engine speeds

Anthony Cipriano
05-08-04, 12:38 AM
i see, i think :hmm:. I want to have over 400hp....say about 410-430hp, i don't just want to pun on a supercharger to do it. i want to change the exhaust, intake and whatever else is needed to achieve that hp. what level of boost do you think i'll be looking at? can i get that much hp out of a n/a N*?

I assume you want to do this and drive it in a production FWD Cadillac. Correct? Remember that the Northstar is 280 cubic inches and you want 430hp normally aspirated. Anything is possible....but you are looking at a tremendous amount of work and modifications and you'll need to spin the engine up to 7500rpm or so to move enough air through it to make that much power - and it will not be very fast in a production FWD Cadillac because it will have very little low end power/torque and you can't get low enough gearing in the 4T80E transmission to make use of that type of high RPM power. Either give it up or use a large shot of nitrous.

Even with a supercharger that's a very tough number to achieve. Better bring lots of money! :p Especially if you can't do the work yourself. Paying someone to learn how to do this and then fabricate the parts necessary and get the car running will cost major dollars.

Pimpin_Whity
05-08-04, 02:17 PM
thanks anthony

Pimpin_Whity
05-08-04, 02:36 PM
btw, you just killed my dream of beating a stupid kid in a CL55 :crying:

elwesso
05-09-04, 10:53 AM
Not to mention, I dont think the 4T80 could handle much more power than it already has. Whats its max torque rating.....

Dubya
05-09-04, 01:56 PM
305ft lbs is the max torque rating.

little late to add my input, but wouldn't a intercooler be absolutely necessary with such a high compression engine? in the 3800, they dropped the compression down to 8.5.

i really think northstar aftermarket will pick up a little in the next years, if gm puts it in as many cars as there planning on. alot of talk of baby ls1's going in instead, like the 5.3 for the grand prix gxp, monte ss, impalla ss, or so the rumors go...

Sinister Angel
05-09-04, 07:07 PM
i believe your thinking of exhaust driven turbo charger, because it takes time for those to "spool" up and actually start making psi. while centrifugal is directly connected to the engine and boost depends on engine speeds

Nope, I was refering to a Centrifugal Supercharger, like an ATI.

Pimpin_Whity
05-09-04, 07:11 PM
Not to mention, I dont think the 4T80 could handle much more power than it already has. Whats its max torque rating.....
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Dubya
05-09-04, 09:22 PM
northstar powered cars take the 4t80e, not the 4t60e. but if i remember right they make a performance transmission for those too.

Pimpin_Whity
05-10-04, 04:56 PM
wierd, this was under 96-99 eldorado parts :hmm:

ShadowLvr400
05-10-04, 06:29 PM
The 4t80e has been rumored to have a rating of 500 or 550 max torque. Heard a few people say it, but I can't recall who. I THINK our good buddy Anthony Cipriano actually has, but I'm not sure. Anthony, you know?

ShadowLvr400
05-10-04, 06:38 PM
305ft lbs is the max torque rating.


On the 4t80e? I doubt that. I dynoed almost that to the ground when I first got the car. 297 ft lbs hit the ground. That was bone stock. If the tranny only took 305, it would have blown up at the nitrous within the first couple of runs. Let alone the number of runs I ran with the nitrous. (Probably about 20 or more) Yet my tranny still shifts very strong.

Dubya
05-10-04, 08:53 PM
gm's not going to rate a transmission as high as it will go to the point of breaking. they have to warranty this stuff ya know.

the published max torque rating is 305ft/lbs with 6500rpm shifts for 1-2,2-3,3-4. in a 4500lb car (98% sure its 4500lb car) or course it can take more, but thats as big of engine that they will warranty it under. just like the gtp's. the max torque rating is 280ft/lbs. they put down 320-330ish STOCK, but there rated at 280 because thats what the trans is rated at. plenty of them running 380lbs with transmissions holding up as long as they dont get dumb with burnouts.

when they said 500ft/lbs, sure it can take it, but not for long is such a heavy car.