: N* Stock Internals



thpiercer
08-13-07, 06:48 PM
I was woundering if anyone knew how much HP the stock internals from a 94 N* (vin 9) can handle. I'm planning on a complete rebuild, and hopefully add a turbo/intercooler. I'm going to drop the compression to handle the turbo and give her new cams also. How much can the stock crank/rods handle before I have a hole in the side of my block?? "Eagle" has a set of forged rods that can handle 800 hp, i'm just not sure if it's worth it.

codewize
08-13-07, 07:16 PM
The bottom end of the N* is very very strong. What are you putting this in and how do you plan on controlling it?

AlBundy
08-13-07, 07:16 PM
You should read the thread posted by MARK99STS turbo charged N*(If you haven't already). There is a lot of good info there even though I'm sure your question will be answered.

thpiercer
08-13-07, 07:28 PM
Sorry.... It's going in my 94 Seville STS.

I've read everything I can find about Mark99sts. His problem is he had an OBDII, and that was his biggest obstacle. I have a "chiped" OBDI and a lot more control over my fuel system. I've already have a k&n Cold air Intake, Dis-4 with accel coils, 3" exhaust, "stage 2" chip, oil cooler, trans cooler.... and a bunch of other goodies. I'm doing a complete rebuild (gaskets, seals, pistons, rings, bearings, cams, ect)

codewize
08-13-07, 08:52 PM
Nice! :thumbsup:

eldorado1
08-13-07, 11:30 PM
If you use an intercooler, 500+ hp is fine on the stock internals. Limit your boost to 7psi and keep those intake temps down. Ideally you want to retard your timing map.

thpiercer
08-13-07, 11:56 PM
If you use an intercooler, 500+ hp is fine on the stock internals. Limit your boost to 7psi and keep those intake temps down. Ideally you want to retard your timing map.

If u dropped my compression to 9 or 9:5:1 do you thing I could go with a little higher PSI, or would 7 be the max. I'll probally stay with 7, but i'd like to know so I can have a little le-way.

I'm so happy i joined this forum :)

danbuc
08-14-07, 12:21 AM
The problem isn't so much what kind of power the engine can make, but how long before the tranny is toast. 500hp is a death sentence for a stock 4T80E. Your gonna wann save up for an LSD, heavy duty Clutch packs, trans cooler, and all that other good stuff that gonna keep it from blowing up. The only other issue you'll have is trying to control 500+hp through the front wheels without running Drag Radials all the time, or running slicks, and worrying about broken axles. Once you figure all that stuff out, you should be good to go. Good luck with the project, sounds like fun. CHRFab has everything you may need for such a project....that is if you didn't know about them already.

thpiercer
08-14-07, 12:32 AM
500 is a lil high for the tranny... i already cracked the shit out of the casing.... i have around 400hp and i cracked the caseing.

thpiercer
08-14-07, 01:34 AM
The problem isn't so much what kind of power the engine can make, but how long before the tranny is toast. 500hp is a death sentence for a stock 4T80E. Your gonna wann save up for an LSD, heavy duty Clutch packs, trans cooler, and all that other good stuff that gonna keep it from blowing up. The only other issue you'll have is trying to control 500+hp through the front wheels without running Drag Radials all the time, or running slicks, and worrying about broken axles. Once you figure all that stuff out, you should be good to go. Good luck with the project, sounds like fun. CHRFab has everything you may need for such a project....that is if you didn't know about them already.

Do you know of any other way of bulletproofing the tranny? I already have a Tans-pack (clutches, seals, gaskets, bearings, ect) and a cooler w/fan and the tongue still cracked the output casings (I was being very stupid with her one night on the highway). I thought about re-welding all the joints/seams in the housing, and adding a bigger cooler. I figure if I can keep it cool and tight, and all the bushings tight, itíll last a long time. Iíll cross that bridge when I get there, but the maximum breaking point for the 4T80E with be a concern at some point.

Any ideas?
Thanks.

Zorb750
08-14-07, 01:57 AM
Lower compression doesn't mean higher boost is possible, though with lower compression, there's more room in the cylinder at TDC, so more air and more fuel, so more power at the same presssure.

I have heard of about a dozen cracked cases, almost all of them with 1994s. Power won't cause it, it seems to have been a defect in design. Power will cause internal damage though.

thpiercer
08-14-07, 02:52 AM
Lower compression doesn't mean higher boost is possible, though with lower compression, there's more room in the cylinder at TDC, so more air and more fuel, so more power at the same presssure.

I have heard of about a dozen cracked cases, almost all of them with 1994s. Power won't cause it, it seems to have been a defect in design. Power will cause internal damage though.


Thats good to know. Are there more weakspots on the casing? Do you know how much hp they can take? Does 500hp still sound about right, provided it's properly cooled and maintained?

eldorado1
08-14-07, 10:51 AM
If u dropped my compression to 9 or 9:5:1 do you thing I could go with a little higher PSI, or would 7 be the max. I'll probally stay with 7, but i'd like to know so I can have a little le-way.

I'm so happy i joined this forum :)

What specifically have you done/plan on doing?

If you're just going to put in thicker headgaskets, I'd say the same thing.
If you're putting in custom forged pistons, I'd say you could go a bit higher. If you're going to be spending all this money on a custom engine build, it seems like the $500 eagle rods would be a wise investment.

thpiercer
08-14-07, 03:15 PM
So far, the parts list contains:

Arias forged aluminum pistons
Sealed Power Rings
Felpro gaskets
Clevite 77 Main & Rod Bearings
Durabond Cam Bearings
Melling oil pumps, Filter relocation and larger cooler
288 deg Camshafts from CHRF with new springs/retainers
3 Angle Valve Job, ported and polished
21lb Injectors
Holley Fuel pump and pressure regulator
MSD Dis-4 ignition controller w/ accel 45k coils

I was hoping to run 9-10 PSI on the turbo, but can live with 7psi if that what you guys recommend (I don’t want to be doing all this again) I’ve been also looking into water/methanol injection to keep the cylinder temp down under full boost.

I know these are amazing engines and want to show all my “LS” 1-6 friends what these babies can really do, in a fully loaded Cadillac.

eldorado1
08-14-07, 06:36 PM
So far, the parts list contains:

Arias forged aluminum pistons
Sealed Power Rings
Felpro gaskets
Clevite 77 Main & Rod Bearings
Durabond Cam Bearings
Melling oil pumps, Filter relocation and larger cooler
288 deg Camshafts from CHRF with new springs/retainers
3 Angle Valve Job, ported and polished
21lb Injectors
Holley Fuel pump and pressure regulator
MSD Dis-4 ignition controller w/ accel 45k coils

I was hoping to run 9-10 PSI on the turbo, but can live with 7psi if that what you guys recommend (I donít want to be doing all this again) Iíve been also looking into water/methanol injection to keep the cylinder temp down under full boost.

I know these are amazing engines and want to show all my ďLSĒ 1-6 friends what these babies can really do, in a fully loaded Cadillac.

You realize 7psi is about 500 crank HP, right? Is this going in something other than a cadillac? You are going to have serious traction problems if you're staying FWD.

Your injectors are way too small. at 7psi, you're going to need about 40#/hr injectors. Keep in mind you will be almost doubling the stock HP, which means double the fuel. Stock injectors are 23.5#/hr.

I'm curious about these cam bearings, because N* cams ride in aluminum "pillow block" type saddles. They aren't upgradeable or replaceable.

thpiercer
08-14-07, 08:16 PM
I was told I can replace the stock bearing with brass..... thats why i'm asking you guys before we get too into it, I want to have all the bases covered. I'm sure everyone here knows more about them then I do.

I thought those injectors would be a little small myself. I knew I had to gett bigger ones, I just wasn't sure how big. I'm hoping for around 500-600hp, sp i'm in the right ball park.

I guess I'll cross the traction issue when i get there... I know the traction control has worked well for some friends with nitrous on there's, and I'm going to use 18-19" wheels, but I know eventually I'll still run into problems.

wydopnthrtl
08-15-07, 10:14 AM
I'm a bit of a torque freak myself.. :thumbsup:

One thing I would recommend is to balance your power. What I mean is to not put too much to this motor at any one point on the rpm scale. Too much too low and you'll damage something. Ramp up the power and by all means use those 4v heads to thier potential.

I'd keep the boost in the 6-8psi area, and rev the snot out of the motor. Any engine can handle bigger than typically accepted increases in boost/power at **elevated rpms**

Spend your money on balancing. Static balance the pistons, wrist pins, rods, & bolts. Then send the crank, damper, flywheel, and staticly balanced parts to eagle. Have them straighten, machine, and rotationaly balance it with the proper bob weights.

You'll spend a good $1500 on this process. But it'll not only make power.. it'll live to see those repeated high power and rpm blasts. :thumbsup:

Rich

Zorb750
08-15-07, 12:00 PM
Lose the felpro gaskets. Their head gaskets are visibly (and to feel) inferior to the factory part. And 7 psi will not be 500 HP. 14.7 psi = double power, minus inefficiencies (supercharger drag, turbo exhaust restriction, etc). It's not uncommon to see a supercharger eat 100 HP at higher RPM, depending on size and pressure.

eldorado1
08-15-07, 12:52 PM
And 7 psi will not be 500 HP. 14.7 psi = double power, minus inefficiencies (supercharger drag, turbo exhaust restriction, etc). It's not uncommon to see a supercharger eat 100 HP at higher RPM, depending on size and pressure.

Turbochargers are more efficient than superchargers.

And you're assuming flow is linear to pressure, and it's not. The first few PSI will give the largest gains because flow quickly increases when the stock intake restrictions are eliminated. "0" PSIG would probably give you 50hp because the engine doesn't have to struggle pulling air in.

Raze
08-15-07, 12:57 PM
I'd really like to see your plumbing layout if you're running a turbo, that's where Mark really ended up in a bind. I remember talking to him and he said if he had to do it all over with a turbo he'd set something up like the Squires Turbo System remote mounted turbo setup. I also don't remember which turbo Mark used but at 7 psi he was at 383 WHP I want to say and he was at 430ish last I spoke with him at 11 psi, problem was he couldn't properly intercool his setup due to the plumbing, he had a very small intercooler...

That being said, I'm wondering why no one has wanted to use a centrifugal supercharger mostly to keep the layout simple. I know they're not the best pieces of equipment in the world and they cost a pretty penny, but when you look at how much space there is to fit everything under the hood without radical cutting/plumbing like Mark had to do I don't really see why no one mentions it. Obvisouly they're not as efficient as a turbo, and don't build boost immediatley like a supercharger but in many ways that's a good thing for a FWD application. Afterall if you put too much power down too fast who cares if it's got 500 FWHP when all you're doing is spinning em, as wydopnthrtl already pointed out. Honestly, if you're building a 500+ HP engine do you really care if you burn a bit more fuel to run your forced induction as long as it puts down 500+? If you can weld pipe and have a ton of time to do all the mocking/fitting then a turbo will definatley be cheaper/more efficient in terms of $ spent, but there are other problems to take into account such as the fact that Mark ended up having to run an electric scavenge pump on the oil return from the turbo because it was level with the pan, a remote mount would definatley need this, not to mention some associated lag with the long intake lines.

For a C.Supercharger I mapped it out a while back and you'd need to relocate the battery, fab a custom bracket for the CSC, get a new/longer serpentine belt, cut an intake hole where the battery tray is, then adjust the CSC outlet so it clears the fender/rad support, plumb it up to a FMIC and then back up into the stock intake location.

I'm not saying a turbo isn't a good idea, I just wanted to present another alternative that in my opinion has less fabrication/layout variables to take into consideration:)

eldorado1
08-15-07, 01:21 PM
I also don't remember which turbo Mark used but at 7 psi he was at 383 WHP

510 @ crank @ 25% loss

Raze
08-15-07, 02:53 PM
510 @ crank @ 25% loss

Damn I'm good :) I once put together every N* dyno I could find to see what the 'approximate' transmission loss was assuming either 270 or 300 crank ponies, as I recall the 4T80 with a N* pushing it looses somewhere in the 25-30% from the crank to the wheels...

Mark once told me his goal was 500 @ the wheels, but beyond the intercooling problem he also had massive traction issues. He has sorted some of it with a manual transmission controller, again custom made. He also told me that he had Eibachs with larger rims (18") and a flatter sidewall to get the most treadwidth he could get and keep it as low as possible to help with handling but after the radical plumbing job his exhaust pipes had to travel UNDER the subframe which with the Eibach drop only gave him less than an inch between the exhaust pipe and the ground, think he said he was using 2" or 2.5" pipe. As a result he had to go to OEM springs with 16" rims and tall MT drag radials which seemed to upset him to no end because as he said "it looks like crap."

thpiercer
08-15-07, 03:25 PM
Thanks for the gasket tip... there going on ebay now....

Sending the assemble to Eagle for balancing and blueprinting is in the budget, so thanks for the confirmation that it is necessary.

As for the turbo, if i got that route, 7-8 psi was the game plan. I just need to know how much she can handle if i get stupid at the track one afternoon and crank it up a couple psi for a final run. Marks Intercooler was pretty much a joke (no offence man)... I've seen bigger ones on a stock Honda... let alone a 4.6l V8. I was thinking at least double+ that size. I've been playing with the plumbing for a couple years now, and think I have a pretty good idea how it's going to go. At the very least, a remote one from STS is looking pretty good.

As for the supercharger, Iíve always been told there not worth the horsepower loss. I know itís minimal, but the idea of using horsepower to make more just seems counter-productive. I know they make serious power in the long run. So I definitely havenít rules it out. Finding one that fits under my hood (Iím still looking for a 3Ē Cowl induction to no avail) and still provide decent boost has been an obstacle.

Raze
08-15-07, 04:52 PM
thpiercer,

You missed my point, I was talking about the centrifugal supercharger, it's very different than a roots or twin-screw style blowers that sit on top of your intake and would require alot of custom intake work including a new manifold, and belt routing, as well as hood clearancing.

A centrifugal supercharger is essentially a belt-driven turbocharger, yes it takes horsepower to run but it is much more efficient than a roots or screw, depending on make/model and boost level some centrifugals can get close to the efficiency of a turbo, their design offers some real spatial/layout advantages for our cars since you wouldn't have to touch the exhaust! I just thought you should take a look, ProCharger, Vortech, Powerdyne, and Paxton all make them, honestly they range in size from smaller than our OEM battery to quite a bit larger and don't need any cowl induction...

Also if you're doing a full rebuild with all the parts you've listed, you might want to see what CHRFab does to their bottom ends for higher HP applications cause what you've listed is similar to their engines w/750+ last time I spoke with someone over there. At that point though your tranny will need some serious upgrades, getting power from the N* will be the easy part, not blowing your tranny apart every 500 miles, well...

eldorado1
08-15-07, 06:19 PM
Go with an air/water intercooler and throw the radiator wherever it fits... even under or near the trunk. Use a fan to get airflow if necessary. That's a lot easier and probably cheaper than running all sorts of 3" plumbing everywhere.

Raze
08-15-07, 07:09 PM
Go with an air/water intercooler and throw the radiator wherever it fits... even under or near the trunk. Use a fan to get airflow if necessary. That's a lot easier and probably cheaper than running all sorts of 3" plumbing everywhere.

air-water are becoming very popular, also much more compact and efficient if setup well, honestly you could set the radiator up front under the existing rad at the lower entrance of the front valance at an angle, just run your water lines and water tank setup in the trunk...

thpiercer
08-16-07, 12:08 PM
thpiercer,

You missed my point, I was talking about the centrifugal supercharger, it's very different than a roots or twin-screw style blowers that sit on top of your intake and would require alot of custom intake work including a new manifold, and belt routing, as well as hood clearancing.

A centrifugal supercharger is essentially a belt-driven turbocharger, yes it takes horsepower to run but it is much more efficient than a roots or screw, depending on make/model and boost level some centrifugals can get close to the efficiency of a turbo, their design offers some real spatial/layout advantages for our cars since you wouldn't have to touch the exhaust! I just thought you should take a look, ProCharger, Vortech, Powerdyne, and Paxton all make them, honestly they range in size from smaller than our OEM battery to quite a bit larger and don't need any cowl induction...

Also if you're doing a full rebuild with all the parts you've listed, you might want to see what CHRFab does to their bottom ends for higher HP applications cause what you've listed is similar to their engines w/750+ last time I spoke with someone over there. At that point though your tranny will need some serious upgrades, getting power from the N* will be the easy part, not blowing your tranny apart every 500 miles, well...

I understand what you meant, I think I got myself off point a little. The more I think about it, I'm starting to lean more toward the SC. It will save me a lot of headaches. I have bneen in contact with CHRF and they've been invaluable with their help.
I think I was getting a little HP happy in my design plans. I'm going do loose the Nitrous and just go with forced induction. I want to stay around 450-500 hp at the crank. I want it strong enough to handle more HP, just not apply it.

The transmission has been my biggest concern since I started, concidering this whole project started becuse I had to remove the engine/trans because of a cracked casing. I'mhoping to reinforce all the sems on the casing, rebuilt it with the strongest internals i can find, and use a monster cooler.