: Bbob



1993 eldorado green1
04-15-04, 02:34 PM
IN A PREVIOUS POST I WAS WONDERING IF THE INSTRUMENT CLUSTER WAS THE SAME FROM THE 1994 STS AND MY 1993 ELDORADO, AND COME TO FIND OUT THERE NOT, BUT I DID FIGURE OUT THAT ONLY THE SMALL POWER SUPPLY CHIP IN MY CLUSTER WAS BAD, AND IN THE TWO CLUSTERS THERE THE SAME, SO I SWITCHED THOSE AND NOW HAVE THE ORIGINAL SPEEDO CLUSTER IN MY CAR, I CHECKED CODES AND GOT SOME DIFFERENT ONES, BUT I IN TRYING TO TRACK DOWN THESE CODES FOUND A BUNCH OF WIRES THAT WERE OPEN AND CORODED, I THINK AT THIS POINT I MIGHT BUT A STS OR ANOTHER ELDORADO AND STRIP MINE FOR PARTS, OR AT LEAST REPLACE FROM THE FIREWALL FORWARD WIRING HARNESS, SOMEBODY HAS CUT AND USED BUT CONNECTORS ON THAT LARGE PLUG THAT GOES INTO THE TRANSMISSION, ALL OF THE WIRES ARE CUT AND REPAIRED, A BUT CONNECTOR IS NOT BY ANY MEANS A PROPER REPAIR, ESPECIALLY WHEN ITS GONNA HAVE THE ELEMENTS ON IT, AND ONE OF THE CODES IM GETTING IS FOR TRANS SPEED INPUT, ALSO THE CODE 061 I GOT, AFTER LOOKING AT THE WIRES, THE ABS PUMP TOP PLUG COVER IS GONE AND THE WHOLE PLUG IS FILLED WITH CORROSION, IT ALSO HAS BEEN CUT AND HALF ASS FIXED, I AT VERY LEAST WOULD HAVE SOLDERED THOSE WIRES THEN USED SHRINK WRAP AND SILICONE OVER THEM, IN THE PAST IVE HAD GOOD LUCK WITH WIRE REPAIRS THIS WAY, AND AS FAR AS THE IDLE PROBLEM I DID WHAT YOU SAID WITH THE ISC MOTOR AND IT DOES RETRACT AND THE CAR WOULD IDLE SO LOW THAT IT STALLS, BUT EVEN KEEPING MY FOOT ON THE GAS IT WONT IDLE AT 500 RPM IT WANTS TO STALL THAT LOW, BUT WITH THE DIFFERENT CLUSTER IN THE DASH I CANT GET THE CODE P080 TO GO AWAY, IVE TRIED THE RELEARN PROCESS 3 TIMES AND THE CODE WONT GO AWAY, I THINK I HAVE A SENSOR PROBLEM SOMEWHERE, PROBABLY THAT TPS SENSOR IT SELF, SINCE IM SURE THAT THE SAME RETARD THAT DID THOSE WIRING REPAIRS IS PROBABLY THE SAME ONE THAT CUT THAT GREEN WIRE FROM IT, WELL ITS ALOT BUT IS IT HARD TO SWAP THE HARNESS? IS IT WORTH IT?:crying2:

Roswell256
04-15-04, 02:45 PM
I noticed that you said you couldn't idle at 500. I've noticed that my N* idles at about 650-750.. and it bounces around in there. Is this too high? or maybe its normal for 110k later....

1993 eldorado green1
04-15-04, 04:07 PM
i dont know? but did you try the relearn process that i left for you? did it work?

BeelzeBob
04-15-04, 04:37 PM
Guys....the idle relearn process is not going to solve your problems. The idle control system looks at the engine idle speed and corrects to the commanded value stored in the PCM. The system "remembers" how much throttle it is having to give the engine to achieve this idle speed. That is all the idle learn does. The procedure is just published so that if someone has a very dirty throttle body that would create high idle learn offsets they can make the system re-learn the high offsets quickly before they drive the car after a battery disconnect. The idle learn process is not going to correct any sort of problem..other than compensate for a mildly dirty throttle body. It is not going to compensate for a disconnected or failed TPS connection or a failed idle speed control motor or other engine misfire that the idle speed control system cannot handle.

If the engine is not idling at the correct speed then the idle speed control motor is not working correctly...i.e..is is failed in some fashion...or the engine is running so poorly or eratically that the idle speed control cannot compensate adequately.


The P080 you are experiencing has nothing to do with the "idle learn"...it is telling you that the TPS is not working....either it is the damaged wiring or the TPS itself...or both. The damage has to be repaired however you decide to do it. The idle learn procedure will not do it for you.

1993 eldorado green1
04-15-04, 05:12 PM
yes bbob the repair to the tps was made, and i was told by another member of this forum to do the relearn process, but now that i have your input i will indead go today and purchase a new tps sensor, the advise that you offer is priceless, iv`e only been a member for a short while but been reading post for a long time as a guest, from what i can see, every post you answer to, is always correct, the money i would pay to have your knowledge:worship: thank you bbob, by the way

what did you think of the rest of the above post?


and just an update i replaced the tps sensor just now, and it didnt make a difference, is there a relearn i have to do or just plug it in and go, thats what i did and it still idles like 1300 and feels like cruise control when driving, i tried to do the relearn process and it didnt even clear that p080 code, so what should i do now?

BeelzeBob
04-15-04, 08:56 PM
yes bbob the repair to the tps was made, and i was told by another member of this forum to do the relearn process, but now that i have your input i will indead go today and purchase a new tps sensor, the advise that you offer is priceless, iv`e only been a member for a short while but been reading post for a long time as a guest, from what i can see, every post you answer to, is always correct, the money i would pay to have your knowledge:worship: thank you bbob, by the way

what did you think of the rest of the above post?


and just an update i replaced the tps sensor just now, and it didnt make a difference, is there a relearn i have to do or just plug it in and go, thats what i did and it still idles like 1300 and feels like cruise control when driving, i tried to do the relearn process and it didnt even clear that p080 code, so what should i do now?


Double check the wiring to the TPS to make sure that it is repaired correctly and not shorted or something.

You can see the TPS reading on the onboard diagnostics display if you press the correct series of buttons...

After entering into the onboard diagnostics and reviewing the codes the system should prompt you with PCM? At this point all the prompts? will need to be answered with the HI button for yes or the LO button for no. Answer yes with the HI button to PCM? Then answer yes again with the HI button when it prompts you with PCM DATA? Scroll thru the PCM DATA list using the HI/LO buttons until you find parameter PD01....that would be the display of the throttle position from the TPS in degrees. It would normally show around 1 to 2 degrees at idle to about 85 degrees or so at full throttle. Fix the wires until you can read the TPS on the PCM parametric readout...that is the data that the PCM is using for idle speed control so it has to be working correctly for the system to work.


While you are in the PCM mode of the onboard diagnostics there is another thing to check that might be affecting you. Look at the climate control panel and find the LO icon for fan speed. When in the diagnostics mode that LO icon represents the status of the closed throttle switch in the idle speed control motor. It should agree with what you are doing with the throttle...i.e...the LO should be lit when you have the throttle closed (the throttle lever at the throttle body is resting against the ISC motor plunger) and the LO icon should disappear when you open the throttle (lifting the throttle lever at the throttle body off the plunger of the ISC motor)

If everything seems OK then watch the throttle at the throttle body with the engine idling when someone else turns the key to off. The ISC motor should retract the plunger until there is just barely some clearance at the throttle lever and then it will extend the plunger back out. This is the self check that the throttle control system does each time you turn the key off to check the TPS setting and then to pre-position the throttle for crank the next time. If the throttle lever is catching on the way to closure then the reference for the PCM will be off and the system will not work correctly. This is why it is important to do the check where you fully retract the idle speed control motor, freeze it by disconnecting it and making sure the throttle closes to the 450 idle point and that there is clearance between the ISC motor plunger and the throttle lever.

There is a tremendous capability in the onboard diagnostic system to trouble shoot problems like this....it is WAY too complex to cover in a forum like this. That is why you really need a factory service manual to trouble shoot problems like this.

1993 eldorado green1
04-15-04, 10:18 PM
ok ill try to get the manual asap, i went into the pdo1 as you said and the lo icon is on but the degrees was at 7 to 8 at a 1300 rpm idle and with the car off it was the same, with the pedal at wot the degrees went up to 81, i also very slowly released the throttle pedal and i could visually count every number until it was back at idle, it seems like the tps is working, but the idle voltage is too high, oh yea and as far as the idle control motor, i tried to freeze it, and it works but the idle on the car will only stay running at 700 rpm or more, it wont idle any lower, she just stalls, but with the idle control locked and the engine idling at 700 rpm i entered dignostics and checked pd01 and it was at -3, i think this car is suppost to run at 700rpm anyway? im gonna look for a tps adjustment rightnow and see if theres anyway to adjust it, im gonna see if i can get the idle to 700 rpm and the degrees to 1-2 like you said and see if that helps anything.

Lawrence
04-16-04, 12:25 PM
There is no adjustment for the TPS. It either works or it doesn't.

BeelzeBob
04-16-04, 03:04 PM
If you fully retract the idle speed control motor, freeze it and then release the throttle to the closed bore position.....is there clearance between the ISC plunger and the throttle lever of not. Even if it is stalling when you release the throttle is there clearance between the ISC plunger and the throttle lever. The TPS isn't adjustable....the system "learns" the TPS setting but the ISC motor MUST be operational, the throttle MUST go to closed bore and there MUST be clearance between the ISC plunger and the throttle lever when the ISC plunger fully retracts. Why is the engine stallling below 700??? Are you doing this with the AC off?? The engine should idle down to 450-500 fairly readily...or something else is wrong.


It sounds like the TPS circuit is working OK...I would concentrate on getting the ISC motor to work correctly and get the engine tuned up to where it will idle. If it stalls below 700 RPM then you DON"T WANT it idling down "correctly" as it will stalll.....

1993 eldorado green1
04-16-04, 05:57 PM
yea imma gonna see if i can get it to idle down to 450 first, and i checked the throttle and yes there is some clearence between the isc and the throttle but it seems hard to get it into freeze mode, and even when its in freeze mode, if i touch the throttle at all it will realease frome freeeze, even if its unplugged, is this normal? the isc is what is causing the crazy idle, i can watch it do it, and when its idling i can push on the throttle and hold steady pressure on it and it will retract, even plugged in with the engine running, when it retracts,the idle goes way down, if i unplug the battery for awhile then hook it up and start it up, it trys tto idle down but the engine surges from 600rpm to like 1400rpm, it runs very smooth and has plenty of power, i cant find any vacume leaks and i cant understand the surging problem, its like the engine trys to stall and the isc stops it but it is rasing the engine too high, even when i start it, it revs to 3000rpm at first, and finally, if i do need a new isc, when the motor is idling normal witch from what i gathwer it is about 500rpm the pd01 reading would be -2 to -3 like it is now when i check it, is this gonna be a problem

1993 eldorado green1
04-18-04, 09:51 PM
???????????

1993 eldorado green1
04-23-04, 06:07 PM
i geuss that means that nobodys sure what the problem is that im having,, im still having it,, that code p080 went away,, but the idle is still shifty.:rant2:

BeelzeBob
04-23-04, 11:45 PM
No....LOL....what ??????????? means is that you need to really work on typing, sentence structure, capitalization, etc... Your post is so hard to read it makes me crosseyed....LOL



If you have the ISC motor electrical connector unplugged to freeze it it cannot move. If you are seeing it move it is either failed mechanically so that the plunger is just loose inside the can or you don't have it unplugged. Why is it hard to unplug it to freeze it...???...loosen the catch on the electrical connector so that it is unlocked and easy to pull off the connector. Raise the RPM and hold the plunger down until it fully retracts and then just pull the connector out. Easy as pie.

1993 eldorado green1
04-24-04, 07:42 PM
Bbob


I`m sorry about the way that i have been typing, I guess that I didn`t pay attention to that,( Im always in a hurry ).

To better help answer the post, I hope that this is a little clearer than before(lol).

Yes, when i freeze the isc( like everyone describes) it depresses all the way in and stops. I then hold it there and unplug the electrical plug from it and it stays there. If i leave the isc unplugged (frooze) and rev up the engine, The isc will move out some causing the idle to elevate.

The more I read these post on this forum, The more I see similar problems, with all cadillac`s. Well i sure hope I can find a solution to this one,(the gas mileage is awful).



Thank You

(p.s.) Is the typing any better??

BeelzeBob
04-24-04, 07:53 PM
YES...!!!! MUCH better. You see, we are all in a hurry, too....so if it takes a lot of extra time to read and interprete your posts....well....they get ignored. No one is going to carp about typos and an occasional mispelling but it is just common ediquite to make your posts as readable for others as possible. Your last post is exceptionally clear. Good job.


The ISC motor is an electric motor that moves the plunger. If the wire is disconnected from it the plunger cannot move.... Unless the plunger mechanism is failed so that it is no longer positively engaging the electric motor. With the problems you are describing I am leaning towards thinking that the ISC motor is part of your problem even though it seems to work partially. I would recommend replacing it or at least swapping it with a known good one from someone elses car...with their permission of course.

The fuel mileage might be a lot of things. Did you ever check the fuel pressure regulator by pulling the vacuum line off the fuel pressure regulator while idling and watching the vacuum nipple on the FPR for several minutes to see if any fuel comes out??? That is a common reason for poor fuel economy.

1993 eldorado green1
04-27-04, 03:58 AM
Bbob


I might be an idiot, but I looked for that fuel pressure regulator everywhere and the only part that i think is the fpr is under the silver northstar cover and there is no vacum line on it, just the silver cover.

My car is a 1993 eldorado but im told that it had a newer engine in it but im not sure.

anyway that fpr( I think ) is a canister in the fuel rail and has an open nipple on the top side. ( If It`s even the fpr )

Am I right? if not I would greatly appreciate some guidence..

Thanks,
jim

BeelzeBob
04-27-04, 04:30 PM
No, you're not an idiot...I gave you some misleading info. On the 93/94 engines the FPR is under the silver cover (which is actually inside the intake manifold) and it does not have a vacuum line on the vacuum nipple. When you take the silver top cover off by removing the perimeter row of screws around the outside of the silver top cover you will see the plastic tubes inside the intake and the fuel rail and injectors, etc... The fuel pressure regulator is on the fuel rail at the throttle body end of the manifold. It is the small canister with the vacuum nipple without a vacuum line attached to it. The FPR does not need a vacuum line on the 93/94 engines since it is inside the manifold proper and is seeing manifold vacuum to the nipple normally... With the top cover off, turn on the key (do NOT crank or start the engine with the top cover off...) to energize the fuel pump and watch the vacuum nipple on the FPR to see if any fuel leaks out of the nipple. None should.


I was referring to the 95 and later Northstars in my previous post. They all have a vacuum line to the FPR as it is outside of the intake. I forgot that yours was a 93.....sorry for the confusion...

1993 eldorado green1
05-01-04, 10:37 AM
Bbob


No...... there doesn`t seem to be any fuel comming out of the fpr nipple.

But I just drove the car from livonia michigan to wisconson and got plenty of time to open it up on the e-way. This thing smells like rotten eggs badly everytime I nail the gas, could this maybe have something to do with the problem?

BeelzeBob
05-01-04, 06:28 PM
Maybe a clue...sounds like it is running very rich. That could still be the fuel pressure regulator or a leak of some sort in the fuel system inside the intake manifold...under that silver top cover. I think you need to take the silver top cover off and have someone cycle the key to "ON" to activate the fuel pump and pressurize the system and look around for any fuel leakage. Even if none is coming from the FPR vacuum nipple I would consider replacing it at this point in time . Look for fuel leaks at the fuel fittings inside the intake for any leaks. Anything like that would make it run rich .

1993 eldorado green1
05-02-04, 02:52 AM
Ok I think It`s gonna be nice weather tomorrow or monday and I`ll take her back apart and see what I can find.


And.... I`m gonna change the fpr to see if it makes a difference.;)


Oh..... I also wanted to ad that if I let the car sit for two days without starting it, it`s hard to start. By hard to start I mean it pop`s from the intake area or throttle body. And I have to crank it for along time.

But only when it`s been sitting, runs and starts great when I`ve been driving it.

Lawrence
05-02-04, 03:04 AM
Ok I think It`s gonna be nice weather tomorrow or monday and I`ll take her back apart and see what I can find.


And.... I`m gonna change the fpr to see if it makes a difference.;)


Oh..... I also wanted to ad that if I let the car sit for two days without starting it, it`s hard to start. By hard to start I mean it pop`s from the intake area or throttle body. And I have to crank it for along time.

But only when it`s been sitting, runs and starts great when I`ve been driving it.

Sounds for sure like a leaky injector, FPR or fuel rail. I can't remember, didn't you check the fuel pressure?

Man this thing has alot of problems all at one time.
Good Luck.

FrankT
05-02-04, 09:36 AM
The long crank problem sounds like a fuel pressure leak down problem, possibly related to the fuel pressure regluator that bbob was refering to. The induction backfire may also be linked to fuel pressure leakdown problem you are having because the engine is too lean with low fuel pressure. When fuel pressure builds up enough for the engine to start the induction backfire will go away. If you could get a fuel pressure gauge and check your fuel pressure with the engine running and then shut the engine off and see if the fuel pressure rapidly drops to 0 zero psi then you accuractly diagnose your problems and verify your repairs. By the sounds of it you have a couple different problems, the ISC motor once it is disconnected should not move, disconnect the motor and grab the plunger with you fingiers and see if it is you can move it freely, if you can its bad like bobb said. Good luck.