: So, i just talked to one of the engineers at GM that worked on the northstar



Crown Vic Owner
08-12-07, 04:49 AM
Being with GM the amount of time that I was, that motor is nothing but problems and special tools


So, i am regretting my northstar purchase after hearing this.

Crown Vic Owner
08-12-07, 05:56 AM
I cant edit posts here, so to complete it, what i was going to say is that im scared that this thing is going to take a crap early along with the trans, as i CANT afford that.

Highline Cady
08-12-07, 08:13 AM
Sounds like a disgruntled worker. LOL

They have certain issues but generally regular maintance goes a long way. Rarely hear of tranny problems.

codewize
08-12-07, 08:32 AM
I agree. I've heard stories on the street but I've never heard anyone at a dealership talk bad about the N*

The guy that just helped me with my PCM is an ex N* tech from another dealership and had nothing but good things to say.

I think you just talked to the wrong person.

They do have a few semi-common issues, we buy them knowing that. They're a world class engine producing more than 1 HP per cubic in. While maintaining 25 MPG rating. There's a lot to be said for that. If it was that bad of an engine do you think they'd still be producing it after almost 15 years of production? There's a lot to be said for that too.


The 4T80E trans however if bulletproof.

If you want a car that's going to run forever buy an L05, but you won't get 300HP out of that.

Sounds like a disgruntled worker. LOL

They have certain issues but generally regular maintance goes a long way. Rarely hear of tranny problems.

Maxb49
08-12-07, 09:44 AM
If you want a car that's going to run forever buy an L05, but you won't get 300HP out of that.

No, you will get 435 horsepower out of an L05 by switching to a carburetor. :bouncy:

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/power_package/top_end_kits.shtml

codewize
08-12-07, 01:46 PM
LOL, they're a great long life, easily maintained, very workable engine. I was mostly referring to stock though. :) I wanted to do the Vortec conversion on mine. I think that would put me somewhere close to 400 also.


No, you will get 435 horsepower out of an L05 by switching to a carburetor. :bouncy:

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/power_package/top_end_kits.shtml

Ranger
08-12-07, 02:14 PM
I see you just registered. Don't know how long you have been lurking, but you will see referrals to "The Guru", if you haven't already. He was a long time poster who was (is) a long time GM powertrain engineer who was also involved in the development and testing of the Northstar. Unlike the engineer you spoke with, he had nothing but good to say about it.

Maxb49
08-12-07, 02:36 PM
LOL, they're a great long life, easily maintained, very workable engine. I was mostly referring to stock though. :) I wanted to do the Vortec conversion on mine. I think that would put me somewhere close to 400 also.

Finally someone who agrees. :bouncy:

I don't know what people have against the LO5 engine. A 350 is a 350, pull off the 1980s fuel injection system that's strangling the engine and you have...a 350. People treat the L05 like it has leprosy and won't respond to small block engine modifications. I don't know why, unless I'm wrong which I don't think I am.

Maxb49
08-12-07, 02:40 PM
In fact one might be better off with an L05 rather than an LT1.

Cadillacboy
08-12-07, 05:17 PM
I find LT1 better to Northstar . In fact GM has been doing some improvements since 1993 ,right ? So, why do they do that ? In order to make the engine run perfect or cover some defects ?
If Northstar was a bad engine ,GM could have stopped it let alone promoting it using GM's top class .However what makes me upset is that why almost 2-3 years Northstar being changed ?
I haven't heard the same story for LT1 . I just like LT1 but that doesn't mean Northstar is bad in my point of view

Crown Vic Owner
08-12-07, 05:22 PM
Im reading up on it right now. This is someone i know, but i dont know him well enough to make up my mind.


You said the 4t80e IS bulletproof?

codewize
08-12-07, 05:39 PM
No doubt. The L05 is much easier and cheaper to work on. Now stock the LT1 is the obvious winner in performance but you'll get a lot more for a lot less out of an L05



In fact one might be better off with an L05 rather than an LT1.

codewize
08-12-07, 05:40 PM
From what I understand they're a very well built, very strong, long lasting transmission.


Im reading up on it right now. This is someone i know, but i dont know him well enough to make up my mind.


You said the 4t80e IS bulletproof?

codewize
08-12-07, 05:44 PM
As nice as the N* is, the changes we see are evolution. They're subtle improvements to an already great engine. It's not perfect and we know that because of history BUT they're getting better and better all the time. They may actually BE the perfect engine soon. :bouncy:


I find LT1 better to Northstar . In fact GM has been doing some improvements since 1993 ,right ? So, why do they do that ? In order to make the engine run perfect or cover some defects ?
If Northstar was a bad engine ,GM could have stopped it let alone promoting it using GM's top class .However what makes me upset is that why almost 2-3 years Northstar being changed ?
I haven't heard the same story for LT1 . I just like LT1 but that doesn't mean Northstar is bad in my point of view

Crown Vic Owner
08-12-07, 08:52 PM
Anyone have a service manual in PDF for the 4.6 i can read?

Ranger
08-12-07, 09:00 PM
Never heard of one in PDF, but some real bargains can be found on Ebay.

97Concours1
08-13-07, 12:04 AM
What is the L05?

It seems to me that the Northstar is unnecessarily complex. Dual overhead cam, 32 valve all aluminum. Why not just put a pushrod 5.3 L in and be done? It can produce 300 HP too.

codewize
08-13-07, 12:21 AM
Well, simply put the L05 is the basic Chevy 350. It's what's in my 93 Brougham and many other Chevy powered cars.

The reason for advances in engine technology have a lot to do with emissions and fuel economy. To run a L05 350HP or so there would be a lot of emissions battles to overcome and the 4000 lb car would probably get 10 MPG. So by building a better more efficient engine we can get more HP out of less CI with less emissions and much better fuel economy.

Now the aluminum come into play for weight reduction, smooth high RPM's, quietness, probably cost and I'm sure a few other reasons.


What is the L05?

It seems to me that the Northstar is unnecessarily complex. Dual overhead cam, 32 valve all aluminum. Why not just put a pushrod 5.3 L in and be done? It can produce 300 HP too.

jadcock
08-13-07, 08:44 AM
Why not just put a pushrod 5.3 L in and be done? It can produce 300 HP too.

Yeah, THIS MODEL YEAR. They have JUST started building those 303-hp 5.3L FWD powertrains. The Northstar has been doing it since 1993. I don't personally feel that GM has kept current with the Northstar. It was HUGE for Cadillac to have come out with an excellent modern V-8 engine back in the early '90s that was on-par with, or better than, the foreign rivals. The engine received some updates in MY2000, but overall, the design has been relatively unchanged for so long. And it's been surpassed.

GM is working on the Northstar's successor (dubbed the "Ultra" engine series). It will supposedly support at least 5 liters of displacement (the Northstar is almost physically limited to its current displacement). I hope they can bring it to market with at least 350 horsepower and maintain the driveability and mileage of the Northstar.

They could install a 5.3L pushrod V-8 into Cadillacs, but they'd lose the "halo". Folks buy uplevel cars to get uplevel equipment. If I wanted a FWD burnout king, I'd go buy an Impala SS and be done with it. Cadillacs are different machines, with owners with different priorities (usually). The speed freaks on this forum are the exception to the rule. :)

eldorado1
08-13-07, 09:03 AM
What is the L05?

It seems to me that the Northstar is unnecessarily complex. Dual overhead cam, 32 valve all aluminum. Why not just put a pushrod 5.3 L in and be done? It can produce 300 HP too.

Yeah!

They should put small blocks in Mercedes' and Lexus' too!

:bigroll:

codewize
08-13-07, 09:20 AM
Exactly.

Yeah!

They should put small blocks in Mercedes' and Lexus' too!

:bigroll:

gothicaleigh
08-13-07, 09:26 AM
What is the L05?

It seems to me that the Northstar is unnecessarily complex. Dual overhead cam, 32 valve all aluminum. Why not just put a pushrod 5.3 L in and be done? It can produce 300 HP too.


Refinement.
Pushrods definately do their job and do it well, but they are brutish in nature (even the ultra-refined LS series feels and sounds underdeveloped next to BMW's silky engines, for example).

The ends are allowed to justify the means when you have the target audience of Chevrolet. If you want to compete with the Germans however, you need to produce comparable performance and refinement. DOHC is much better suited to changes in timing and evenness of power distribution. This is Cadillac, a burbling pushrod V8 may be seen as permissable in it's base car (I say permissable, because while it is a beautiful machine, even the CTS-V oft-times gets criticized for not being as refined as it's competitors), but in the luxury price ranges more is expected than just performance.

AJxtcman
08-13-07, 01:25 PM
A BMW is not all that.
We get them in on trade and our body shop does a few each year.
GM is looking at setting Cadillac apart from the other brands in the line up.
I think the CTS V will be a V6 this year, but I will be wrong. I read an article about a 2008 V6 version of the CTS V. I have seen more articles that say it is a blown V8.
GM wants to have Cadillac set the standards. Then they put the 6.2L in GMC's.
This new V12 deal is along that line. It will be the Standard that GM will set.
It will be like the Northstar when it came out. Lots of buzz for what?
.
You need Buzz to make money, survive, build the illusion of clout.

the power to direct the thinking or behavior of others usually indirectly

Crown Vic Owner
08-13-07, 07:52 PM
Bimmers engine wise are WAY superior to GMs offerings, and transmission wise, they used the same transmissions as GM did. Frame wise, they are sub superior.

gothicaleigh
08-17-07, 12:15 PM
A BMW is not all that.

In terms of engine refinement, they are "all that". The BMW inline six is what every engine builder should aspire to match. 330hp from a naturally aspirated inline six with only 3 liters of displacement is accomplihment enough, but the smooothness and refinement is also only matched by engines in much more expensive cars.

GM has the perrformance down and they admittedly do build the best pushrod V8 in the world, but they need to offer more in their premium brand to be truly considered world class anymore.

97Concours1
08-18-07, 10:46 AM
What is the L05?

It seems to me that the Northstar is unnecessarily complex. Dual overhead cam, 32 valve all aluminum. Why not just put a pushrod 5.3 L in and be done? It can produce 300 HP too.


I'm responding to my own post here.

Thanks for the responses to this post (even though I did not start this thread). I understand (and agree) now why the Northstar is used. It's kind of bitter-sweet though - bitter from a durability standpoint, and sweet from a performance standpoint. I'm doing a head gasket repair on mine right now (Actually, I bought it with the blown gasket, so I have yet to enjoy the performance aspects of the vehicle.) The head gasket failed due to the head bolt threads failing in the block. From reading other threads on the subject, I understand that some manufactures put steel inserts in the block at the factory to prevent this problem from ever happening. This seems like the "World-Class" method that should be used. I'm sure the GM engineers were(are) aware of this method, but it may not have been used for cost reasons. So while I'm excited to see how the Northstar will perform, I'm cautious as to its future durability.

The reason I brought up the 5.3 liter pushrod motor was because of the normal driving habits of Cadillac (Deville) owners. I’ll bet most Northstars are rarely, if ever, pushed to their maximum output (It’s kind of like taking a racehorse and using him to pull a buggy.) A pushrod motor would do just fine in most cases. Maybe it could be offered as an option.

Again, I agree with why the Northstar is used, but I read a publication on the development of the third generation small block a few years ago that was very interesting. They did a “blind” test with cars equipped with overhead cam engines and push-rod engines. They mixed motors around so they couldn’t tell which cars had which motors. After driving the cars, the executives evaluated them without knowing what was under the hoods. The result was that the pushrod engines where preferred. GM then proceeded to develop the third generation small block.