: Solid Motor Mount?



msta293412
08-09-07, 08:46 AM
Does anybody out there now if the Billett solid motor mount exists for the 2001 STS? I know the they were available for the older models as several people have discussed having them on other cadillac performance discussions. It would really help performance as the motor really rocks back when you mash the pedal, absorbing horsepower and delaying reaction time.

AJxtcman
08-09-07, 09:35 AM
I am using the older mount on my car. Tell me more about the solid mount.
I went for a ride in a Fiero with a solid mount and I would never had known it. The only problem was a much quicker Throttle response
:burn:
The owner told me it is very smooth all the time.

EcSTSatic
08-09-07, 10:07 AM
I went for a ride in a Fiero with a solid mount and I would never had known it. The only problem was a much quicker Throttle response


You will have to explain that one. Solid mounts are used to prevent breakage. I've seen chains and turnbuckles used too. The engine is still bolted directed to the tranny as well as the throttle linkage. I don't understand how a mount could affect throttle response.
The downside of solid mounts is that they transmit engine vibration to the body.

danbuc
08-09-07, 10:58 AM
I think I might be the only person who ever actually bought one from RSM Racing before they went under. They used to manufacture a solid billet mount that used a single polyurethane bushing at the top. I've had it in my car almost 3 years now and haven't had any issues with it. Unfortunately, the company who bought them out doesn't make them anymore, and I don't know of any other companies that make one. Here's a link to my cardomain page. I've got a pic of what the mount looks like towards the bottom... http://www.cardomain.com/ride/772129

msta293412
08-09-07, 11:15 AM
Danbuc is a lucky SOB, Those things really help, I bet he will concur....If you've ever been uder the car while its on a lift, just grab a tire and move it back and forth, you will see how much play is in the stock (rubber) mount. Mine rocks back so much when I floor it, I thought the mount was broken, but when I replaced it, I realized thats just the way it is....Im teeling you it absorbs valuable HP, and delays throttle response.......Hey Danbuc......name your price...LOL. :-)

EcSTSatic
08-09-07, 11:50 AM
You're "teeling you it absorbs valuable HP, and delays throttle response" but I don't see it. The powertrain is bolted directly together all the way to the wheels, where is this "loss" occurring? I Gooogled the topic and did not find anything other than sales hype. IMHO - save your money unless you are drag racing and breaking them.
The only problems I have ever experienced with broken mounts is a damaged fan shroud.

codewize
08-09-07, 11:51 AM
Not a racer huh. With a flexible mount, as you throttle the engine some of the energy generated is soaked up twisting the engine. With a solid mount ALL of the energy generated is put to the tranny. It's basic physics.

Since I will assume you've never driven a car with solid mounts, you would be amazed at the results.


You will have to explain that one. Solid mounts are used to prevent breakage. I've seen chains and turnbuckles used too. The engine is still bolted directed to the tranny as well as the throttle linkage. I don't understand how a mount could affect throttle response.
The downside of solid mounts is that they transmit engine vibration to the body.

EcSTSatic
08-09-07, 12:04 PM
Once more...if the engine is bolted directly to the transmission, they move together when the mounts flex. Physics.

codewize
08-09-07, 12:18 PM
Ok lets do it this way. Have you ever seen a motor lift or tilt when it's throttled? Of course you have. So where do you think that energy to lift that 900 lb motor comes from.

Having said that, that energy is lost because it takes less effort to lift the engine than it does to move the car so the lift happens first. Once the mounts are maxed out THEN and ONLY THEN does the tranny get that power.

If the engine can't move at all then ALL power generated is forced to the trans resulting in a very noticeable difference in throttle response..


Once more...if the engine is bolted directly to the transmission, they move together when the mounts flex. Physics.

EcSTSatic
08-09-07, 12:42 PM
I totally agree. If you broke a mount the torque will cause vibration, even damage. But the small amount an OEM mount flexes is negligible in terms of transmitting power where it needs to go. I can't accept that solid mounts give you measurable advantage in HP or throttle response. The primary reason for using them is to prevent breakage, and that isn't a practical issue on a D/D with no inherent weakness there.

AJxtcman
08-09-07, 12:53 PM
34062
Custom cradle I built.
I have poly bushing on it.
The one I went for a ride in also had the poly bushings and I could not tell the difference in NVH between the mine and his. He just had more throttle response.

AJxtcman
08-09-07, 12:55 PM
an 00+ motor mount is different from a 99 and prior. Just check out yours and then double the movement for a 00+. The 99 and prior have too much play as it is.

dkozloski
08-09-07, 01:42 PM
In order for the engine/mount flexibility to absorb power the engine would have to be spinning under the hood like a rotary motor in a WWI fighter plane. With the softest flexible mount the motor will move about an inch at most. The reason this thing isn't made anymore is because it is all BS.

Highline Cady
08-09-07, 01:49 PM
All I know is that the factory rubber mount is 1 expensive and 2 known for breaking. I've had two replaced in 60,000 miles, god bless the certification. I don't know if they actually help throttle response but the durabillity of a solid mount would be welcome.

AJxtcman
08-09-07, 01:52 PM
They are filled with hydraulic fluid

danbuc
08-09-07, 02:28 PM
The main reason....well, the only REAL reason I purchase the billet mount was to prevent having to replace the hydraulic OEM style unit every 40k miles. They are prone to breakage in vehicle driven hard. I drive my car like I stole it...all the time, so another OEM mount was simply not an option. This mount was more expensive, but it's been in the car for over 65k miles without a single issue. I didn't notice any more "power" per say after the change, but throttle response was a little better.....not by much, but enough to notice. I wouldn't consider it a "performance upgrade" without a solid rear mount as well..which they made also. Actually, they made all four mounts in billet form, but that was just unnecessary and expensive.

As for engine movement, some torque is absorbed moving the drive train, before the energy is transfered to the wheels. The OEM mounts move quite a lot, which does eat up energy, which is why they fail so frequently in cars driven hard. Constant On/Off throttling is a death sentence for the OEM hydraulic units.

You could probably have a billet mount machined quite easily. I can try and measure it and give you the specs. It's basically just a billet cylinder of aluminum with two threaded holes on either end. two high strength bolts thread into either end (using thread lock), with lock nuts securing it. One single polyurethane bushing sits on top. It also has a guide pin to align the mount just like the OEM unit. It probably would cost all that much to have made at a machine shop, you just need the right measurements.

The reason they stop selling them (I think I may have mentioned this before) was because of increased engine vibration being felt through the gas pedal. There's is a slight bit more vibration, but I didn't notice it anymore after the third day the mount was in the car....I just forgot about it, it was such a small difference. It does vibrate a little bit more with the A/C on which is a little weird, but again you don't really notice it unless your looking for it, or not used to it already.

codewize
08-09-07, 10:05 PM
That's not true at all. Solid mounts are made for a bunch of cars, just not N* cars. There is most certainly a loss with rubber / hydraulic mounts. Racers have been using solid mounts for years because of it. WE want them because of the notorious broken front mount on our cars but that's NIOT the reason why most people go to solid mounts.


In order for the engine/mount flexibility to absorb power the engine would have to be spinning under the hood like a rotary motor in a WWI fighter plane. With the softest flexible mount the motor will move about an inch at most. The reason this thing isn't made anymore is because it is all BS.

codewize
08-09-07, 10:07 PM
Exactly

As for engine movement, some torque is absorbed moving the drive train, before the energy is transfered to the wheels. The OEM mounts move quite a lot, which does eat up energy, which is why they fail so frequently in cars driven hard. Constant On/Off throttling is a death sentence for the OEM hydraulic units.

That's why they're not made for Cadillacs anyway.

The reason they stop selling them (I think I may have mentioned this before) was because of increased engine vibration being felt through the gas pedal. There's is a slight bit more vibration, but I didn't notice it anymore after the third day the mount was in the car....I just forgot about it, it was such a small difference. It does vibrate a little bit more with the A/C on which is a little weird, but again you don't really notice it unless your looking for it, or not used to it already.

msta293412
08-10-07, 09:16 AM
You tell 'em CODEWIZE, We all know the benefits it would have, unfortunately, they dont make them for our cares anymore at this time....well, we can only hope. Next He'll be saying a stall converter is no good....."Im teeling you"....:-)

EcSTSatic
08-10-07, 10:39 AM
Puh-leeze, high stall converters are a whole 'nother discussion. :) I still don't find anything that says throttle response increases with solid mounts. Show the facts guys and I'm willing to read. What I did find was:

Solid Motor and Transmission Mounts I've noticed a proliferation of advertisements for solid motor-transmission mounts for Porsche 911 race cars. I'm sure they sell well because they are CNC machined out of solid aluminum and they look "cool". They are also considered "hardcore". My opinion is that any practical advantage they possess is vastly outweighed by a myriad of disadvantages.
The basic problem with solid mounts in internal combustion reciprocating engines is that they introduce destructive harmonics into the body of the race car and also back into the engine. Everyone has heard the true stories of cracked sheet metal, loosened nuts and bolts, sheared-off exhaust systems and broken engine cases.
The excessive vibration often sticks the float needle valves in carburetors causing flooding and other times aerates the fuel in the float bowls causing a lean condition.
The intense vibration also can knock out components in EFI systems leading to the common full-lean-at-full-tilt-equals-fried-engine syndrome. The additional tooth- rattling vibration and noise increases driver fatigue and the possibility of a crash. And if there is a hard crash, the solid mounts increase the likelihood of catastrophic damage to the engine and transmission.
Given these well known facts, why would anyone use solid mounts? It is because they stop the engine-transaxle unit from twisting, thereby improving shifting. This condition is substantially improved by using the Porsche sport mounts and is totally cured by using a WEVO (http://www.wevo.com/porscheproducts.htm) shifter along with the sport mounts. Frank Eibell in Florida has made and installed anti-torque bars on the transaxle to cure this problem. Jim Patrick in Arizona makes urethane dampened 914-6 conversion mounts. WEVO (http://www.wevo.com/porscheproducts.htm) urethane engine-transmission mounts are available now.
An interesting theory is that solid mounts actually decrease horsepower by forcing the engine to absorb vibrations that would normally be absorbed by cushion mounts. For every power pulse in an internal combustion reciprocating engine there is a reactive pulse responding to inertia, operating in a counterrotational plane. Containing this reactive pulse with solid mounts diminishes the power pulse by adding secondary vibrations. Greg Edmunds utilized this theory in designing motor mounts for his .4cc x 3.75 HP model airplane engines. By trial and error, Greg was able to tune out the unwanted vibrations by adjusting the durometer of the rubber in his composite motor mounts. His engines put out more horsepower and the airplanes flew faster with the cushion mounts!
http://www.pmocarb.com/bulletins.htm

and


Why not solid motor mounts?

It seems paradoxical, but solid steel motor mounts actually fail very frequently. There is a very good reason why auto manufacturers use rubberized engine mounts; they prevent transmitting vibration and noise to the chassis. Solid steel mounts transmit so much vibration that they fatigue and crack the mount brackets and sometimes even cause cracks in the engine-mount crossmember or engine block itself. This is not to mention the discomfort of driving a vehicle that is much more noisy and vibrates excessively.

AJxtcman
08-10-07, 12:48 PM
Would you like to see a 2000+ solid mount?

danbuc
08-10-07, 02:04 PM
Valid points indeed. Solid mounts in high torque applications are usually a no go, since your likely to start tearing stuff apart. As for the N*, with three other flexible mounts, the one solid mount in the front isn't stressing anything that much, especially with the rear mount still being flexible.

If I was driving a Camaro, with a Cam and some headwork...I might be a little more concerned about running two solid mounts, but seeing as that's not the case with the FWD caddy's, I don't see any problems running just the one. As I said, I've had mine in my car nearly three years and I beat on my car somethin' fierce day in and day out and haven't had a single issue related to the billet mount.

msta293412
08-11-07, 11:23 AM
Danbuc, if you can post the specs as you mentioned, maybe we can go to our local machine shops and have them fabricate one for us....

AJxtcman
08-11-07, 12:04 PM
Danbuc, if you can post the specs as you mentioned, maybe we can go to our local machine shops and have them fabricate one for us....

Have you ever changed this mount?
GM has cut the time down to .8 hrs.
I ask because we see some broken brackets.
I think it maybe from poor installation.

danbuc
08-13-07, 01:53 AM
Have you ever changed this mount?
GM has cut the time down to .8 hrs.
I ask because we see some broken brackets.
I think it maybe from poor installation.

I changed it myself...not too hard to do. Why broken brackets, do people loosen the brackets bolts and forget to re-tighten them?

AJxtcman
08-13-07, 07:48 AM
I changed it myself...not too hard to do. Why broken brackets, do people loosen the brackets bolts and forget to re-tighten them?

I have seen the upper ears torn out, but not off. This would lead me to believe that the upper bolts had not been properly tightened at the last replacement. I have not replaced a bracket, but I have seen a few. I will start collecting what I need to pop out 10 solid mounts.

jadcock
08-13-07, 11:11 AM
When I had my car in for a failed oil pressure switch (under warranty), the tech found a broken front mount. I've heard of the problem, but never had one before, or at least not that I know of. I wouldn't have known this one was broken if they didn't tell me. All the mounts in my '97 with 160,000 miles are original. Maybe one or more of them are broken as well...?

And actually, I do think I recall seeing a motor mount replaced before I got the car as well, on the GM service summary sheet. So that would be two front mounts in about 60k miles on my 2001. The front mounts are filled with fluid? Do they leak when they break? What's the normal failure mode?

danbuc
08-14-07, 12:28 AM
Some people notice a slight kick with they hit the gas., and the engine rocks back on the rear mount. Others may here a clunk. Depends on how badly it has failed. When my original mount got bad enough, it was making a loud clunk every time I hit the gas. When I pulled it out, I had found that it had split in half.....yet somehow managed not to leak.

They are filled with hydraulic fluid, which serves as a dampening agent, almost like the fluid in a tradition tube shock used in suspension. It's there to help absorb vibration, and keep excessive drive train movement under load to a minimum. All for that "whisper quiet" action. Load a crap if you ask me. Should, it keeps drive train noise down, except for when it fails...then it gets nice and loud.

tateos
08-24-07, 08:06 PM
Are We Talking About The Torque Struts Or The Motor Mount That Is Attached To The Block (or Is It The Cylinder Head?) And The Cradle ?

Purplewgn2000
10-21-07, 09:31 PM
Hate to bring this back up, but does anyone have the dimensions for the solid motor mount RSM made. I am constructing my own mount out of billet and I need the size of the billet bar stock used and the threaded rod inserted. I could probably use the dimensions of a stock motor mount, but I don't want to buy one just to get the dimensions.

AJxtcman
10-21-07, 10:08 PM
Hate to bring this back up, but does anyone have the dimensions for the solid motor mount RSM made. I am constructing my own mount out of billet and I need the size of the billet bar stock used and the threaded rod inserted. I could probably use the dimensions of a stock motor mount, but I don't want to buy one just to get the dimensions.

The only solid motor mount that was sold I believe was for a 99 and prior.

Purplewgn2000
10-21-07, 11:30 PM
Ooooh, thanks for the info. I will probably have to pull the old one out and just reproduce it with aluminum, polyurethane, and threaded rod. If I am successfull I will post pics for eveyone to see. Thanks for your time. If anyone has attempted this I would be interested in the results.

HITMONEY
10-21-07, 11:44 PM
Grrrr. I have a broken front mount yet again. I think this is #3 or #4.

:(

I am still certified so it won't cost me anything, but certification runs out in December.... "Oh Noes!" And it is a pain in the ass to go to the dealer down here.

No solid mounts for 00-05 DeVilles anywhere!!????

AJxtcman
10-22-07, 12:08 AM
Grrrr. I have a broken front mount yet again. I think this is #3 or #4.

:(

I am still certified so it won't cost me anything, but certification runs out in December.... "Oh Noes!" And it is a pain in the ass to go to the dealer down here.

No solid mounts for 00-05 DeVilles anywhere!!????

I tore one up also. I have the older 4 bolt style.

Purplewgn2000
10-22-07, 06:08 PM
I will be taking the old motor mount out on Thursday to get the proper measure. I have located some grade 5 and grade 8 threaded rod (found the 5 first, then finally found the 8), grade 8 lock nuts and grade 8 fender washers. I located some 3" bar round bar stock on Ebay, and I'm currently trying to find some polyurethane washers or body mounts for the dampening. Anyone have a website for that. I was on Ebay and found strut rod bushings from an 88 Honda (blasphemy) which seem to fit the bill perfect. This looks to be a fun adventure.

Purplewgn2000
10-24-07, 12:48 AM
Hello all. I was able to locate some polyurethane bump stops that are 2.75" wide and 3/4" thick with a hole in the center. They are from energy suspensions and cost about $10.00 for two. I found a site that will machine a 3" by ?" bar with a complete tap or two taps for a nominal fee. (Less work for me). I'm trying to keep the cost under $100.00 for the complete unit. I will keep you posted. Total so far... $8.00 for threaded rod, $5.00 for hardware, $10.00 for bump stops, $8.00 for misc shipping. That's where we sit for now. A total of $31.00 at this point. Looking good...

msta293412
10-24-07, 09:13 AM
HITMONEY how did you lower youre car? Mine is a 2001 sts and I was told they only make lowering srpings for pre-00 ......let me know....thanx...

AJxtcman
10-24-07, 02:30 PM
I am making another solid mount. This will be for my turd. It will be a 99 and prior type. I am looking at selling the 00+ mounts soon.:drool:

HITMONEY
10-24-07, 07:50 PM
HITMONEY how did you lower youre car? Mine is a 2001 sts and I was told they only make lowering srpings for pre-00 ......let me know....thanx...

Eibach lowering springs.

Purplewgn2000
11-09-07, 11:18 PM
Well everyone. I finally finished the motor mount for my 2000 Seville STS. I used 3" aluminum 6061 bar stock with an angle cut for the proper fitment. I took this opportunity to use 1/2" grade 8 hardware instead of the smaller metric size on the stock mount. I found polyurethane bump stop bushings on energy suspensions website that worked perfect for vibration absorption. The complete unit resembles the solid mount for the 98 STS. I will post some pics soon. I would also like to thank the person who posted the directions on replacing the motor mount on the DTS. The directions were similar and very useful. The car is driving perfect, throttle response is better than ever, and the only side effect is a bit of vibration in the gas pedal. This was definitely a good upgrade.

ronbo
04-22-08, 02:55 AM
Well everyone. I finally finished the motor mount for my 2000 Seville STS. I used 3" aluminum 6061 bar stock with an angle cut for the proper fitment. I took this opportunity to use 1/2" grade 8 hardware instead of the smaller metric size on the stock mount. I found polyurethane bump stop bushings on energy suspensions website that worked perfect for vibration absorption. The complete unit resembles the solid mount for the 98 STS. I will post some pics soon. I would also like to thank the person who posted the directions on replacing the motor mount on the DTS. The directions were similar and very useful. The car is driving perfect, throttle response is better than ever, and the only side effect is a bit of vibration in the gas pedal. This was definitely a good upgrade.



What ever happened with the pictures you were going to post?