: are time serts asbsolutely necessary



mikeylok13
07-25-07, 11:41 PM
My parts supplier said be very careful when removing . please help ?

AJxtcman
07-25-07, 11:46 PM
I would never ruin a good block by installing time serts.
If you have a bad hole you need to repair it. You could destroy a block that has no problems by installing Timeserts just because.

mikeylok13
07-25-07, 11:52 PM
If i don t have a striped hole i could be ok using new bolts without time serts
because budget really tight .sorry about grammar punctuation.

AJxtcman
07-26-07, 12:26 AM
You need to clean all the tread locker out of the holes. If you don't it can bind the treads and break them.
Next after they are clean you need to look for any signs of pitting in the threaded area.
You will need to look for broken threads on the bolts when you removed them or in the holes.
If the threads are good then don't install an insert. The Inserts just make the bolt bigger it is not like you are installing a nut down inside the block to grip.

mikeylok13
07-26-07, 12:46 AM
thank you.

mikeylok13
07-26-07, 12:58 AM
one more question gm or aftermarket gaskets ?

jadcock
07-26-07, 07:22 AM
Boy...I suppose that AJ is the expert on this (being a Cadillac technician), but I do want to point out that there have been REPEATED experiences by members on this board and another board where they didn't Timesert all the holes and the problem has returned. In the past, it was best practice to Timesert all 20 head bolt holes and you knew you were good for another quarter million miles.

AJxtcman
07-26-07, 08:06 AM
Boy...I suppose that AJ is the expert on this (being a Cadillac technician), but I do want to point out that there have been REPEATED experiences by members on this board and another board where they didn't Timesert all the holes and the problem has returned. In the past, it was best practice to Timesert all 20 head bolt holes and you knew you were good for another quarter million miles.

When the treads are cleaned and they show no signs of damage you will be good.

Jadcock how do you get the treadlocker out of the block?
I tried to contact Locktite and asked the Wurth Rep.
I can not get an answer, but I have found two ways.
#1 I used adhesive remover in quart cans. (the body shop type)
#2 I own my own personal heated aquatic spay cabinet. The heat and water/soap must break it down, because when I run the cleaning tool down the threads it comes out clean.

jadcock
07-26-07, 08:53 AM
I've always understood that the threads can pull with the bolt, when it's removed. In other words, part of the threads will break off with the thread locker. I've heard of cases where folks did not Timesert (one of all of the holes) and when the head bolts were torqued upon install, they stripped.

Maybe this was due to them not fully removing the thread locker, I don't know. ??

eldorado1
07-26-07, 01:37 PM
I'd never do a head gasket job without timserting (OR NORMS INSERTING!! yeesh) all of the holes. It isn't worth my time having to do it again.

codewize
07-30-07, 10:51 PM
The reason the head gasket problem occurs to begin with is that the threads are flawed in design and do not hold the bolts tight enough to prevent lifting the heads.

Additionally most of us also feel that this phenomenon is triggered prematurely by corrosion in the coolant system caused by poor coolant system maintenance.

Timeserting is a time consuming art but if you're going to take the heads off the engine your shooting yourself in the foot if you don't Timesert.

zonie77
07-31-07, 12:56 PM
SInce you did not remove the head bolts yet don't get too wrapped up in this question.

If you use a breaker bar there is really only one way you are going to remove the bolts, by unscrewing them. If the threads are damaged they are already damaged. You can tell the difference when you start unscrewing them.

Take it apart and carefully inspect each hole and bolt for damage as AJxtcman instructed. If there is NO evidence of damage you can probably reassemble without the inserts. If there is ANY evidence of damaged threads you better insert it.

There have been (over the last couple of years) guys who had the last bolt they were installing fail, some bolts fail, no bolts fail. I don't think they all really inspected the holes carefully. I'm sure they did a quick inspection but not sure how well they cleaned and inspected each hole.

After you get it apart let us know how they look. It might be a good idea to keep the bolts organized so you know which holes they came out of (at least til you inspect them). Some holes punched in cardboard would work well for this. Mark which head and which end of the head on the cardboard.

jadcock
07-31-07, 01:29 PM
I guess I just don't see what you have to gain by NOT using the Timeserts. Surely a Timeserted hole is not more likely to fail than an already possibly compromised hole.

codewize
07-31-07, 04:14 PM
Exactly. Why would you not do it when you're that far into the project?


I guess I just don't see what you have to gain by NOT using the Timeserts. Surely a Timeserted hole is not more likely to fail than an already possibly compromised hole.

zonie77
07-31-07, 05:41 PM
If i don t have a striped hole i could be ok using new bolts without time serts
because budget really tight .sorry about grammar punctuation.

Here's why he's trying to avoid them.

If you get a used kit and resell it for same cost you only have cost of inserts.

I haven't seen Norm's set used yet.

AJxtcman
07-31-07, 09:49 PM
I guess I just don't see what you have to gain by NOT using the Timeserts. Surely a Timeserted hole is not more likely to fail than an already possibly compromised hole.


Exactly. Why would you not do it when you're that far into the project?

If you are not on the Norm's insert band wagon or you are at a dealer that has not used them yet. You would have possibly ruined the block for another repair. If the block has time serts in it and then head gaskets fail a second time you are screwed because you know that the inserts pulled free every time.
.
Block #1 is in perfect shape and needs no inserts. You replace the head gaskets at 45k miles. at 130k they pop again. Now you can install inserts.
.
Block #2 is in perfect shape and needs no inserts, but you put them in because you can. Now the head gasket pops at 70k and the engine is JUNK. unless you trust Norms inserts to go in after TimeSerts are already in. I do, but it would be up to the Tech who knows nothing about them.

eldorado1
07-31-07, 11:53 PM
Block #2 is in perfect shape and needs no inserts, but you put them in because you can. Now the head gasket pops at 70k and the engine is JUNK.

LOL

A timesert repair is stronger than the existing threads. Period.

If a block in "perfect shape" with timeserts blows in 6k, it would have blown in 100 miles without the timeserts.

AJxtcman
08-01-07, 06:51 AM
LOL

A timesert repair is stronger than the existing threads. Period.

If a block in "perfect shape" with timeserts blows in 6k, it would have blown in 100 miles without the timeserts.

You really don't understand that it is just making the bolt bigger. It is not part of the block it is part of the bolt.:rant2:

eldorado1
08-01-07, 01:21 PM
YES!

And a bigger bolt has more threads!

dkozloski
08-01-07, 03:20 PM
Until the current Norm's Insert fan club arrived on the scene, Timeserts, the approved and validated factory repair, were used by Cadillac owners to repair their head gasket and thread problems with only a few having to fall back to the BigSert scenario for the odd exception. Tool kits were traded around on the forum for years with almost no reports of failed repairs. Bbob supplied the vast majority of advice and everybody was happy. Somehow the world has shifted on it's axis by an amount sufficient to deem Timeserts no longer effective. My Dad had a saying that I believe applies to this situation, a good workman never blames his tools for something he can't do.

Zorb750
08-01-07, 04:24 PM
I would never ruin a good block by installing time serts.
If you have a bad hole you need to repair it. You could destroy a block that has no problems by installing Timeserts just because.

Idiocy... Unfortunately becoming a more and more everpresent constant in our lives.

Why do BMW engines have thread inserts from the factory, instead of simply tapping the aluminum? Why does Mercedes-Benz do so as well? How about Volkswagen? Why do old Chrysler Minivan 2.5 four cylinder engines suffer repeat head gasket failures after the first one?

Aluminum is too soft. Threads WILL be damaged when removing and reinstalling a fastener with a high ratio of torque to thread engagement area. Talk to any machinist worth beans about threading aluminum.



...

If the threads are good then don't install an insert. The Inserts just make the bolt bigger it is not like you are installing a nut down inside the block to grip.

Have you heard of a little thing called "Metal Fatigue"?


Boy...I suppose that AJ is the expert on this (being a Cadillac technician), ...



Becoming questionable.


If you are not on the Norm's insert band wagon or you are at a dealer that has not used them yet. You would have possibly ruined the block for another repair. If the block has time serts in it and then head gaskets fail a second time you are screwed because you know that the inserts pulled free every time.
.
Block #1 is in perfect shape and needs no inserts. You replace the head gaskets at 45k miles. at 130k they pop again. Now you can install inserts.
.
Block #2 is in perfect shape and needs no inserts, but you put them in because you can. Now the head gasket pops at 70k and the engine is JUNK. unless you trust Norms inserts to go in after TimeSerts are already in. I do, but it would be up to the Tech who knows nothing about them.

The techs at two local dealerships who are friends of mine (Suburban Olds Cadillac in Troy, MI and Don Massey in Plymouth, MI) know nothing about them... How strange... Haven't asked the people at Crestview in Rochester yet, seeing that I don't like them and don't know any of their mechanical staff...


You really don't understand that it is just making the bolt bigger. It is not part of the block it is part of the bolt.:rant2:

It's neither a part of the block nor a part of the bolt. That's why it's called an INSERT, not a Bolt Fattener. :thepan:


Until the current Norm's Insert fan club arrived on the scene, Timeserts, the approved and validated factory repair, were used by Cadillac owners to repair their head gasket and thread problems with only a few having to fall back to the BigSert scenario for the odd exception. Tool kits were traded around on the forum for years with almost no reports of failed repairs. Bbob supplied the vast majority of advice and everybody was happy. Somehow the world has shifted on it's axis by an amount sufficient to deem Timeserts no longer effective. My Dad had a saying that I believe applies to this situation, a good workman never blames his tools for something he can't do.

Absolutely! :thumbsup: :highfive:

AJxtcman
08-01-07, 04:33 PM
Idiocy... Unfortunately becoming a more and more everpresent constant in our lives.

Why do BMW engines have thread inserts from the factory, instead of simply tapping the aluminum? Why does Mercedes-Benz do so as well? How about Volkswagen? Why do old Chrysler Minivan 2.5 four cylinder engines suffer repeat head gasket failures after the first one?

Aluminum is too soft. Threads WILL be damaged when removing and reinstalling a fastener with a high ratio of torque to thread engagement area. Talk to any machinist worth beans about threading aluminum.


Have you heard of a little thing called "Metal Fatigue"?



Becoming questionable.



The techs at two local dealerships who are friends of mine (Suburban Olds Cadillac in Troy, MI and Don Massey in Plymouth, MI) know nothing about them... How strange... Haven't asked the people at Crestview in Rochester yet, seeing that I don't like them and don't know any of their mechanical staff...



It's neither a part of the block nor a part of the bolt. That's why it's called an INSERT, not a Bolt Fattener. :thepan:



Absolutely! :thumbsup: :highfive:

How many TIMESERT INSERTS have YOU installed?

JC316
08-01-07, 04:58 PM
I wouldn't listen to AJ honestly. I timeserted ALL 20 holes if they needed it or not, because the stock threads WILL pull out eventually.

AJxtcman
08-01-07, 05:12 PM
I wouldn't listen to AJ honestly. I timeserted ALL 20 holes if they needed it or not, because the stock threads WILL pull out eventually.

so do the TimeSerts!
.
The 90%+ of the time the TIMESERT will come out with the bolt on the second time around!
.
Have you ever had a TIMESERT insert in hand?
..
GM DOES NOT RECOMEND INSTALLING INSERTS IN ALL 20 HOLES!

AJxtcman
08-01-07, 05:14 PM
A Timesert Is A Piece Of Crap Band Aid1
Ask Any Cadillac Tech!
Every Cadillac Tech I Know Calls Them Band Aids!

AJxtcman
08-01-07, 05:16 PM
On a 00+ block you would not need them any way.:rant2: :alchi:

dkozloski
08-01-07, 05:39 PM
I would wager that in my lifetime I have installed more thread inserts in aluminum and magnesium than anyone else on this forum by a large margin. My shop ordered and stocked them by the hundreds for our use. I've machined out hundreds myself for special applications. Nearly every threaded hole in an aircraft engine has a thread insert and they need to be repaired or replaced from time to time. We specialized in the removal of broken bolts and studs and the repair of stripped threads for repair shops of just about every type of equipment imaginable. I don't claim to have seen it all but I'll bet I've seen a very large percentage. Some of the applications were stressed far higher than Northstar headbolts and were far more critical to life. A guy working in the back of an auto dealership is looking at the world of thread inserts through a paper towel tube. He may have a lot of experience in a limited number of applications but he's not the final source of information. You have to suspect the motives of a guy that throws mud at a process that has produced proven results for years for serious amateurs and professionals alike.

Zorb750
08-01-07, 06:19 PM
How many TIMESERT INSERTS have YOU installed?

100.

In the next week or so (when I get around to finishing) 20 more.

And before you suggest otherwise, I have never redone one, had one seperate, or had a failure of one of my repaired engines, the longest running is 37K miles so far.

Zorb750
08-01-07, 06:27 PM
so do the TimeSerts!
.
The 90%+ of the time the TIMESERT will come out with the bolt on the second time around!
.
Have you ever had a TIMESERT insert in hand?
..
GM DOES NOT RECOMEND INSTALLING INSERTS IN ALL 20 HOLES!

:cookoo:

BullS**T!


A Timesert Is A Piece Of Crap Band Aid1
Ask Any Cadillac Tech!
Every Cadillac Tech I Know Calls Them Band Aids!

Strange... the ones I know respect the device.

dkozloski
08-01-07, 06:49 PM
:cookoo:

BullS**T!



Strange... the ones I know respect the device.
Sounds to me like somebody carelessly slopped out repair jobs using Timeserts and they failed later. The excuse to the customer and the boss was "the no-good Timeserts failed". The rest is just keeping the alibi going trying to save face. The "Joe Mcgee" Norm's insert are more tolerant of ham-handedness so that's the cure for the problem.

mikeylok13
08-01-07, 10:55 PM
I decided to go with the time serts . It threw the process back a week but why do it again . If it fails again it gives me excuse to tell wife i need new car "i tried".

eldorado1
08-01-07, 11:17 PM
I think he might be right about GM only recommending to use the timeserts on the damaged threads.

I mentioned in a previous thread, that that may be why they have repeat failures. It's not the timesert(s) that failed, it was all the other holes that failed and the head lifted and pulled any timeserts with it.

Alan Johnson at CHRFab does performance rebuilds for Northstars, and as far as I know he still recommends the original timesert. And believe me, he would be the 1st to hear if one of his engines blew up.

mikeylok13
08-01-07, 11:21 PM
on some of the threads that appeared to be fine i could not even tighten the time sert jig.

zonie77
08-02-07, 12:21 PM
Mikeylok,

Make sure you clean the holes extremely well after tapping. Brake cleaner and qtips several times.

Make sure the qtips don't leave fibers. I have some industrial cleaning type that are wound tighter and don't shed.

zonie77
08-02-07, 09:52 PM
dkozloski,

I pm'd you an off topic msg.

brad3378
08-03-07, 10:30 PM
I'm a mechanical engineer (and an ASE master tech), so hear me out.
I see where the Cadillac Technican is coming from when he recommends not time-serting a Brand-New block.
I'm also a big fan of the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" club. However, if I had a new shortblock going into my own car, you can bet your *** that I'd be using Time-Serts. The Northstar headgasket repair is book rated at 25 labor hours, and believe me - you earn every one of them!

I'm one of the unfortunate (few?) who had a bare block thread fail and a 1st repair Time-Sert repair fail.
I purchased my Cadillac from a gentleman after the Headgasket was blown without knowing the full repair history. I later found a receipt for a new Radiator in the glove box which leads me to believe that the car had overheated & softened the aluminum in the block.

Anyway - back on topic.
We can all agree that the issue at with Northstar headgaskets blowing is due to the failure of the aluminum threads in the engine block. The threads literally pull out of the block while still stuck between the threads of the headbolts! The threads are failing because of a Shear stress type of loading in the direction of the centerline of the bolt. Unfortunately, the threads are too small to distribute the enormous load of torque-to-yield headbolts. "Torque-to-yield" means that these bolts are literally tightened so much that they stretch like a spring and elongate! They're not small bolts either!

Here's a simplified analogy to help you visualize what is happening.
Imagine that you have a roll of tape and you wrap it one time around the threads of a headbolt.
If you remove the tape, the area covered by the tape represents the loaded portion of the threads.
Using Time-Serts as a repair helps by increasing the loaded surface area which means you'll have less loading per thread.

Example: A Northstar Engine block comes with 11 millimeter diameter head-bolt threads. The 2nd repair (Big-Sert) Time-Sert kit requires you to ream out and re-tap the threads of the block in preparation for the massive 15.5 millimeter outside diameter bushings.

Big Deal you say? 4.5 extra millimeters in diameter? Yes, it is a big deal. By jumping up to the 15.5 sized bushings you just increased your loading capacity by roughly 30% because the contact surface area increased by the same amount. (simple example does not take thread pitch into account but the basic concept gives you a rough idea)

Anyway, that being said. The main reason why I stopped by was to announce that
I have a Big-Sert (2nd repair) kit for sale on eBay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270151418801

http://www.wideopenwest.com/~rick_brade/eBay/BigSert/bigsert5.jpg

The bidding starts at $250.00 and the Buy-It-Now price is set at $400. For comparison, Brand new kits are available on eBay for $450 which is still a bargain compared to replacing an engine! I recommend buying the kit on eBay, performing your repair, and then reselling the kit on eBay when you're through. I sold my 1st repair kit earlier today on eBay in less than 2 hours! You may be able to go directly from a bare block to the 2nd repair kit, but I am not sure. The reamer for the 2nd repair kit is intended for removing the inserts from the 1st repair Time-sert kit so I don't know if it will work on a bare block's smaller threads.

Anyway, I have already purchased extra inserts so you'll be able to start your repair as soon as you receive the kit.
Feel free to contact me via eBay if you have any questions.
-Thanks

eldorado1
08-03-07, 10:45 PM
We can all agree that the issue at with Northstar headgaskets blowing is due to the failure of the aluminum threads in the engine block. The threads literally pull out of the block while still stuck between the threads of the headbolts! The threads are failing because of a Shear stress type of loading in the direction of the centerline of the bolt. Unfortunately, the threads are too small to distribute the enormous load of torque-to-yield headbolts. "Torque-to-yield" means that these bolts are literally tightened so much that they stretch like a spring and elongate! They're not small bolts either!



The head bolts are not torque to yield, but otherwise I agree with everything else you said!

The solution to interfacing with a weak material is to increase the contact area. It's harder to push a broom handle through a block of cheese than a knife.

brad3378
08-03-07, 11:07 PM
The head bolts are not torque to yield, but otherwise I agree with everything else you said!


It's been a long time since I've had a head off of a Northstar, but I swore they were Toque-to-Yield bolts because of the pain-in-the-butt torque angle gage slowing me down.
However, after doing a quick google search it appears that you are right. I guess you really do learn something new every day!

I stand corrected!

dkozloski
08-04-07, 12:40 AM
It's been a long time since I've had a head off of a Northstar, but I swore they were Toque-to-Yield bolts because of the pain-in-the-butt torque angle gage slowing me down.
However, after doing a quick google search it appears that you are right. I guess you really do learn something new every day!

I stand corrected!
The bolts are torque to angle all right just like the headbolts in a Deutz diesel but they don't stretch past deformity and can be reused but it's not wise because they have a proprietary sealer applied by the maker.

97Concours1
08-10-07, 04:12 AM
It's been a long time since I've had a head off of a Northstar, but I swore they were Toque-to-Yield bolts because of the pain-in-the-butt torque angle gage slowing me down.
However, after doing a quick google search it appears that you are right. I guess you really do learn something new every day!

I stand corrected!

Don't give in quite so quickly (my fellow M.E.) Below is a response I gave to this same discussion in another thread:

"FYI - The Torque-to-Angle procedure can produce a yield (permanent stretch) in the head bolts, if the specified angle is high enough. They can be one in the same; Torque-to-Angle and Torque-to-Yield. The engineers who designed the engine know the specific characteristics of this head bolt. They know that if the bolt is torqued to the 30 lb-ft specification, all the slack will be taken out of the head-block joint. They also know that if the bolt is then turned 190 degrees total, it will be yielded (stretched) a known amount. This will produce a known maximum clamping force by the bolt. (Torque-Angle is a somewhat crude “service” procedure to simulate a much more sophisticated process used in production. The production process is computer controlled and will achieve exactly the same yield in every bolt. The Torque-Angle service procedure comes close, but is not as accurate as the computer-controlled production process.) Finally, the engineers also know that IF the yielded head bolts are used a second time, they will be stretched beyond their designed length and will not produce the same clamping force. This could cause the head gaskets to fail, so the engineers specify that the head bolts are not to be reused - and I’m guessin’ they probably mean it..."

Since I wrote this I have disassembled my own Northstar motor and I'm installing Norm's inserts. I was playing around with a used head bolt (cleaned) and threading it into one of the Norm's inserts. I noticed that it began to get tight when it got past the original aluminum thread engagement depth on the bolt. It appears that the pitch of the threads, in the area between the shank of the bolt and the orignal thread engagment portion, has been stretched. The minor diameter of the threads is the smallest diameter in the bolt and therefore is the part that yeilds. I don't care what anybody else has to say about this, I know the bolts yeild and I'm not going to reuse them.

tateos
08-24-07, 08:13 PM
Is Everyone Changing The Trouble Prone Rear Main Seal When They Pull The Engine? Do You Really Need The Special Kent Moore Tool ($350)?

clarkz71
08-25-07, 07:25 PM
So.............. do we like time-serts again? ....... AJ?............:stirpot:

Scott T Mumford
08-27-07, 05:01 PM
I too have a blown head gasket in my 98 Eldorado ETC (102K miles). I have watched the exhaust bubble up through the coolant.
Technical issues aside, I am looking for a recommendation in the middle Tennessee area for a head gasket repair. There is a dealer in Nashville where I live, but my instincts tell me that the dealer doesn’t give a damn about a solid repair in relation to billable hours and the like. I am so heart broken that I almost fell I should just dump the damn thing, but I have been reading the posts that talk about the inserts and the like and what I get is that you guys like these cars, as do I.
There is a product on line that claims to be able to repair it via an additive and an involved process associated with it www.heal-a-seal.com/. However, who’s kiddin’ whom?
So is there a Head Gasket Guru in this part of the world, or does anyone want to buy a used caddie? (Just kidding, sort of)

AJxtcman
08-27-07, 05:31 PM
I installed 10 Timeserts about Two weeks ago. Customer came in with a BOLT in the #3 intake on #4 cylinder. I had to replace the valve and the head had to come off. After I removed the head I found PITTING in the threaded area in 8 holes. The other two had coolant in them and I gave up on cleaning them. I did all 10 on the front head in the car and made out like a bandit. When I drilled the holes out I had goo shiny metal and NO rot. I had no pitting in the holes after I drilled them out. If I would have seen pitting I would have needed an alternative.
The set looks good, but it is the tread depth I question. Norm's are not perfect either. I have listed the slight flaws before.

dkozloski
08-27-07, 10:43 PM
Aluminum alloys are very sensitive to heat treatment. I have seen structural aircraft parts that were improperly heat treated that became the consistancy of wet cardboard when exposed to moisture. This is called intergranular corrosion. One of the biggest problems associated with pressure die castings like North* blocks is control of the post casting cooling and subsequent heat treatment. All kinds of strange things happen to grain structure; from brittleness, to the metal turns to powder. Bbob told me that Cadillac had to do a lot of process adjustment in this area and it has continued to be a problem as it is with all die cast aluminum. A hiccup in the casting line and you have another block with badly heat treated or porous metal in a threaded area. Combine this with air entrapment and the resulting porosity and it's no wonder that the fall back position for reliable aluminum castings has always been the old tried and true sand casting process. The down side is that it's labor intensive and expensive. .

AJxtcman
08-29-07, 06:57 AM
I installed 10 Timeserts about Two weeks ago. Customer came in with a BOLT in the #3 intake on #4 cylinder. I had to replace the valve and the head had to come off. After I removed the head I found PITTING in the threaded area in 8 holes. The other two had coolant in them and I gave up on cleaning them. I did all 10 on the front head in the car and made out like a bandit. When I drilled the holes out I had goo shiny metal and NO rot. I had no pitting in the holes after I drilled them out. If I would have seen pitting I would have needed an alternative.
The set looks good, but it is the tread depth I question. Norm's are not perfect either. I have listed the slight flaws before.

34820

AJxtcman
08-29-07, 07:22 AM
This is called intergranular corrosion.
One of the biggest problems associated with pressure die castings like North* blocks is control of the post casting cooling and subsequent heat treatment.
All kinds of strange things happen to grain structure; from brittleness, to the metal turns to powder.
Bbob told me that Cadillac had to do a lot of process adjustment in this area and it has continued to be a problem as it is with all die cast aluminum.
A hiccup in the casting line and you have another block with badly heat treated or porous metal in a threaded area.
Combine this with air entrapment and the resulting porosity .

I have 5 inserts sitting here waiting for me to send them out. I forgot about them:bang2:
Without having you seeing the Timeserts used on the head bolts I feel that I am :horse:


The Non head bolt TimeSerts look like They would work better in the application they are made for.

The GM 11mm X 1.5 TimeSert weighs 5.94 grams
the GM 11mm X 2.0 TimeSert weighs 8.75 Grams
Norms inserts weighs 24.67 Grams

parts68
09-28-07, 12:41 AM
so who has used the "other "insert?

I m still curious why no one used studs in additon to the inserts.
It seems to me that the threads of a bolt being threaded into an
insert such as a timesert would cause the threads on the insert to
fail long before a stud that wasnt torqued to install in the same insert.
The torque is placed on the upper threaded portion of the stud.
This twisting under high torque is like using a large sheetmetal screw
into the insert.The nut and washer used with the stud are both hardened
so will take the torque better.

AJxtcman
09-28-07, 08:42 PM
so who has used the "other "insert?

I m still curious why no one used studs in additon to the inserts.
It seems to me that the threads of a bolt being threaded into an
insert such as a timesert would cause the threads on the insert to
fail long before a stud that wasnt torqued to install in the same insert.
The torque is placed on the upper threaded portion of the stud.
This twisting under high torque is like using a large sheetmetal screw
into the insert.The nut and washer used with the stud are both hardened
so will take the torque better.

Explain to me your thinking.
The week link is the block correct??
If you put a bolt in that is stronger than a grade 8 (I have been told the stock are grade 8) that will not stretch. The head will expand under heat so it must stretch the bolt correct? This will cause the block to fail sooner correct?

parts68
09-28-07, 11:54 PM
studs have been used successfully on alot of alloy engines.
The torquing of the bolt as it goes into the insert maybe part of the reason
the block is failing at that spot.
Also is everyone comfortable with the amount of torque(or in this case rotational degrees)
that GM requires?

MM STS
09-30-07, 01:04 AM
On a 00+ block you would not need them any way.:rant2: :alchi:
The new engine for 2000 eliminated the blown head gasket issues with the N*? Mike

clarkz71
09-30-07, 06:24 PM
The new engine for 2000 eliminated the blown head gasket issues with the N*? Mike
Several members have reported blown headgaskets on 2000 model year cars, so no.

zonie77
09-30-07, 09:15 PM
NO engine (with HG's) has head gaskets that never fail.:D