: Will the new STS be overshadowed by



lowscola
04-12-04, 03:11 PM
the upcoming releases from

Infiniti - new M45
Lexus - new GS
Acura - new RL
MB - new CLS
Chrysler - 300c

http://www.autoweek.com/weekart/2004/0412/caddystsmain.jpg

http://press.nissan-global.com/COMMON/IMAGES/EVENT/NYMS/LOW/nyms_03.jpg

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/pictures/VEHICLE/2006/Lexus/100284903/028742-E.jpg

http://gallery.dealerrater.com/gallery/large/100_2053.jpg

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/pictures/VEHICLE/2005/Mercedes-Benz/100293779/029345-E.jpg

http://www.autointell.net/nao_companies/daimlerchrysler/chrysler/chrysler-300c/chrysler300c-side-640.jpg

Brett
04-12-04, 03:28 PM
Should be interesting. the RL may draw FWD fans from the midwest. the 300 may draw american rwd sedan fans, especially with the low price. The M45 i think will be the most head-to-head, i would be interested in seeing how its priced. It is a crowded market out there though, should be fun to see how it plays out. Benz will probably be too pricey to call a direct competitor, i still dont see how the CLS and E class are suppose to co-exist.

Sandy
04-12-04, 03:35 PM
I think that they are all GAWD AWFUL UGLY, except for the Chrysler (which shoulda been named the Imperial, not 300c or is it 300M - or just 300?) The present Infiniti M45 is a masterpiece of elegant design and even balance, so they had to go and "egg" it too. They "egged" the Q45, and you see how terrible it is selling? I've seen like 5 or 7 of them in a year!!!!!

Soon they'll all look like eggs on wheels. I don't like any of these new "edgy-egg" designs, which is why I bought a Town Car. I can only imagine what FoMoCo will do to it, in 2006. :hide:

lowscola
04-12-04, 03:49 PM
I actually wanted a 2002 Q45 more than anything but the cost of entry was a bit high. Coulndn't wait anymore a got a DHS. I like the exclusiveness of not seeing any of the Q's on the road but still having the 340HP to leave a lasting impression. I considered the 300c and would have maybee splurged to get into it, but when I saw it at the MT International Auto Show in January I was left unimpressed. It was probably because they had a base 300 model on the turntable...no leather, no chrome, 16'', no tortise shell steering wheel. Why didn't they have the 300c model on display? The base model looked pretty bad.

I agree the new q is pretty ugly but the performance and interior would help me look past it. The current M45 is has a weird grill going on but too it's performance can't be denied. The new M45 will do alot better.

I had an 03 town car for about a week...and it was pretty nice. The engine doesn't have very high output but I was able to entertain myself with a mustang. I also road across some coblestone streets and could have still sipped a cup of coffe. The LS is nice, considered one but was a little to small.

Vesicant
04-12-04, 08:29 PM
Man that M45 looks great.. very aggressive. :coolgleam

davesdeville
04-12-04, 10:46 PM
I think that they are all GAWD AWFUL UGLY, except for the Chrysler (which shoulda been named the Imperial, not 300c or is it 300M - or just 300?) The present Infiniti M45 is a masterpiece of elegant design and even balance, so they had to go and "egg" it too. They "egged" the Q45, and you see how terrible it is selling? I've seen like 5 or 7 of them in a year!!!!!

Soon they'll all look like eggs on wheels. I don't like any of these new "edgy-egg" designs, which is why I bought a Town Car. I can only imagine what FoMoCo will do to it, in 2006. :hide:

I agree with everything said, although they already egged the Town Car a bit from the mid 90s models.

The STS sure isn't eggy, thats for sure. Neither is the Chrysler.

If I were in the market, I'd get the Chrysler/340hp hemi, or an STS V8. Can't believe they have a V6 STS, boooo.

RES
04-14-04, 06:33 PM
:want: I think the only one to give the Caddy STS a run the money is the Infiniti.
The Merc is just plain ugly and clumsy looking in the rear-end. The Chrysler, well what can I say, it's Chrysler!..way over-designed. And I don't know if I can get anybody to agree with me on this one, but, does't the new RL look like the mazda-6 on steroids and a little extra chrome?...I don't know, would like to hear someone else's opinion. Oh and the GS is totally not even worth going into detail about, but I will any way. The car is just jelly bean boring (nothing really ground breaking on the design department)

Chuck C
04-14-04, 08:13 PM
Looks like this would make a fantastic Car and Driver comparo :coolgleam

Stoneage_Caddy
04-16-04, 04:37 PM
taking bets on which will do the best "smokey rear wheel drive burn out "

Hemi ? Caddy ? or the Infiniti ?

im feeling the hemi will put on a show

lowscola
04-16-04, 06:20 PM
MT had an article on the 300c...and they had a picture of it burning out...
http://imgs.zinio.com/magimages/6425964/2004/48972032_toc1.jpg

gothicaleigh
04-17-04, 04:45 PM
I'll take that 4 door Maserati.


Seriously though, maybe I'm just a little too american or something, but the 300c and STS are the only two above that look attractive or unique to me. I love Mercedes' interiors, but the only exterior designs of theirs that I am drawn to are the sport coupes they make. Lexus, Acura, and Infiniti all suffer from 'me too' design in this category, and as such blend into everyone else on the road, and if I'm going to shell out this kind of money for a car, I want it to be noticed. The Chrysler, while getting points for creativity, still remains a Chrysler at the end of the day(that and it will soon be over-shadowed by the upcoming 4 door Charger). So my choice would end up with Caddy again(the STS looks much better in person than pictures and you can't go wrong with the Sigma chassis it would seem). Can't wait for the V version. :)

tdogg5184
04-18-04, 12:37 AM
I do not think that the Chrysler will be a large contender; it does not have a recent reputation of making luxury cars. In my opinion the 300 is over styled and ugly, does not look like a luxury car. All of the others will just be the standard competition, but its not new competition the luxury performance sedan segment has been crowded the past several years. Cadillac will have its place as always and I think that even more people will be attracted considering the AWD and unbelievable amount of gizmos. I would also like to say that although I would not buy a V-6 STS that was a smart move on Cadillac’s part considering that MB and BMW all offer the V-6 and do very well. That’s my take on this.

majax
04-18-04, 02:52 AM
Well I personly really like the STS and think it is well designed throughout. As for the Infiniti it looks great in the front, but if you have ever seen the back of it the lights are huge and ugly. The STS bigest competitor will probably be the Infiniti and the Lexus which is kinda awkward in the rear door area. Then there is the Chrysler which inside its not the most luxurios kinda simple with a ugly leoperd patterned wood, also the exterior is kinda bulky and not to classy. Oh and finally Lincoln should not be brought up on a Cadi enthusiaste site, Lincoln sucks.

elwesso
04-18-04, 07:04 PM
The new Q and M are going to be good... I wouldnt buy the new Q for the styling, but for the technology, interior and features.....

Both of those cars, pictures dont do them justice... The new Q45 is a head turner no matter how many times you see it... It really sticks out, as in "bam here I am" and "I own you"... Much better in person.....

The new STS will be a big hit if they can pull off a decent first year, which cadillac isnt known for (They strike again with the CTSv and the oil issue)

gothicaleigh
04-20-04, 06:19 PM
The new STS will be a big hit if they can pull off a decent first year, which cadillac isnt known for (They strike again with the CTSv and the oil issue)

:hmm:
The CTS-V sold out for 2004 (it's limited production). They are beginning production on the '05s in May I've heard...

The XLR (which also ran on a limited first year production)hasn't had a problem selling either.

The CTS sold over 37,000 units in it's first year. That's huge for a first year car in it's class. The 2004 numbers are shaping up to be far larger.

The only Art&Science Caddy that hasn't seen record breaking sales figures so far is the SRX, and that owes largely to the fact that they only produced the most expensive versions at first. Sales are steadily increasing on them now.

Mikethegreeat
04-22-04, 08:13 PM
i would narrow it down tot he 300C and STS...boy does that 300C look awsome in that pic!

the war of the sedans has BEGUN!!!!! :bouncy:

ellives
04-25-04, 04:36 PM
I like the 300C -- very attractive styling -- and not the "me too" style of the others. Can't beat the price either -- really shouldn't be considered a competitor of the STS. I haven't seen pricing on the 2005 STS yet but suspect it will finally top $60K fully loaded.


Ells


(Post Script -- I saw another posted that showed loaded price of $65K.)

PPS - I buy where I make my money -- the US -- which limits me to either Ford or GM -- and it's doubtful I'll ever own a Ford product

MEJIA
04-27-04, 12:30 AM
3 Weeks ago I had the opportunity to get inside the new STS and the new 300C in the New York Autoshow. I was really excited since it was the world premiere of the STS, I car i've always loved in every aspect, except being Front Wheel Drive. So when I knew the new STS is rwd, I was really looking forward to see the car, and maybe perhaps buy one when sale starts down here in Mexico. The exterior of the car is BEAUTIFUL, but I really got dissapointed when I got in. The interior quality and design is excellent, also. What was really dissapointing for me is the front leg space and the front seat. Although I tried finding a comfortable position I couldn't. In the passenger side it actually feels a little bit bigger that the CTS. Next, when I got to the Chrysler exhibition and I got inside the 300C I immediately fell in love with the car, (lots of leg space in both front seats) but I got even more excited when I saw the sticker price. With the luxurious and super comfortable interior (M-B style) a 340 h.p. 5.7 Hemi, this car is surely is going to be the new STS headache.
Just my 2 cents.

Pimpin_Whity
04-28-04, 06:53 PM
STS all the way, as i said a number of times, i sat in most of the cars you posted and i was impressed with the STS to say the least. maybe i'm toooo anti-rice to apreciate the Infinty but that new VVT 320hp RWD N* is going to kick serious a** :want:. and with the expected release of the '06 STS-V :worship: , the only place it's going to see them is in the rear-view mirror while being one of the most luxury choises too. while i love the 5.7L Hemi in the chrysler, but the caddy is just more comfy (had no problem with leg room and i'm 6'1"). the new features are amazing too: keyless entry and start, biggest LCD screen on the market, best magnetic ride controll, and the caddy sign is the best lookin of all IMHO.

Mitch3
04-28-04, 07:32 PM
Ever wonder why auto manufacturers can't be style independent ? If one comes out with an egg design they all will. If one squares it up with edgy styling they all follow suit. Someday I hope to see a car about 500 yards away and say "that's a Caddy" or "that's a Chrysler. Today you have to see the nameplate on half these cars to know who makes it. Take a quick look at the rear end of the Nissan or the rear end of the Saturn. Look familiar Caddy owners ?

ellives
04-29-04, 07:32 AM
It's called 'risk avoidance.' No one wants to be SO out there that, if the design doesn't catch on, they'll lose their job/take a beating, etc. There are billions of dollars at stake. Who can blame them?

Heck everybody does it. Been on a job interview lately? If your resume doesn't match EXACTLY what the written job description says, the HR person with throw your resume in the circular file.



It's life today.



Ells-

Mitch3
04-29-04, 11:18 AM
You got me on that one. A friend of mine used to say we all have to fit in little black boxes. Personally, I always tried to stay out of the norm. It made life a hell of a lot more interesting. To prove your point-------back in 1958 I bought a new Studebaker Silver Hawk. Nice 8 cylinder engine that would take just about anything on the road. Styling was and still is (my opinion only probably) way ahead of the pack. Well, long story short, it was a STUDEBAKER, the old farmers car. No one took them seriously when they tried to break away from their image and soooooooooooooooooo. Down the tubes they went. I just got a diecast model of the Hawk and look at it every day and say HOW COME !! Oh Yea! and how about that freaky looking AMC Pacer. God that was ugly. Woops----after the Pacer died it seems at least five other companies came out with a new innovative design which all really seemed to look like the Pacer.

lowscola
12-07-04, 05:39 PM
Well it seems like the 300c has one up on the STS so far - as the big chrysler has won Motor Trend Car of the Year. The Mag made several direct references to the STS when summarizing the 300's attributes i.e. more cabin space, longer wheelbase but same overall length, and the price point simply couldn't be ignored. A loaded 300c for 35k is the deal maker/braker. Both manufacturers should be proud. They can now hold their heads high because they are attracting alot of new buyers with these vehicles and finally going in the right direction.

As far as the other competition, the RL is pretty much a dud as far as styling goes, but everything else about the car is a hit. But as the 300 has proven, good styling stires up so much emotion that it allows people to overlook many other shortcommings. The form and function debate has gone on for years but in reality, form is what gets noticed. If we all purchased vehicles from a function only perspective, we'd all be driving toyota's and/or lexi. It's like when you see a woman for the first time, you don't appreciate her personality or see her virtuousness and fortitude. You see form. The RL is the "butt ugly" woman that never nags, loves to cook, and makes six figures. She would make a good wife but the brainless cheerleader gets all the proposals.

The other three models the M45, CLS, & new GS still havn't been released yet. The CLS looks like my next car though...see it's the form.

Playdrv4me
12-08-04, 05:26 AM
Ever wonder why auto manufacturers can't be style independent ? If one comes out with an egg design they all will. If one squares it up with edgy styling they all follow suit. Someday I hope to see a car about 500 yards away and say "that's a Caddy" or "that's a Chrysler. Today you have to see the nameplate on half these cars to know who makes it. Take a quick look at the rear end of the Nissan or the rear end of the Saturn. Look familiar Caddy owners ?

This is why I like to buy luxury cars that are about 3-5 years behind their current iterations, some of the older versions of todays cars are absolute gems. An excellent example of this is the 73-89 and 90-02 SL Class Mercedes, those two cars are a work of art, but the new one is egged.

Every car up there looks hideous except for the STS and the 300 (though I like the 300 less and less each day that passes by). The CLS is a complete joke, it looks more Japanese than German, and competes with an already solid class in the E, which makes no sense. The new M45 may have a nice motor, but the current one has the SAME motor, and looks like nothing else on the road, at least on our shores. The new one looks like an oversized G35 (though I have to give Infiniti credit for the FX SUV's, VERY awesome and different from the crowd). The GS... BLECH!! Whats with the roachback Lexus??!! And HOW could you forget the representitive of the BANGLE era at BMW... the NEW 5 Series? The new 5 Series is probably the STS' closest direct competitor, and this is typically stated in most comparisons.

Sorry, I dont like any of the cars in this class, quite frankly, of the imports the ACURA of all things is the most interesting. Then again, Im not a fan of many mid-class sedans in domestic or import. I tend to migrate to either entry level (CTS, 3 Series, C Class), or flagship sedans (S Class, 7 Series).

Katshot
12-08-04, 08:18 AM
Man that M45 looks great.. very aggressive. :coolgleam

LOVE you avatar!! Where'd you get it? I have a lot of F-14 pics but don't think I've ever seen that one.

Katshot
12-08-04, 08:25 AM
Face it, there's something for everyone. I think it's unfair to compare some of the cars you did but what the hell. I think the 300C is the car to beat but that's mainly due to it's price and the fact that the styling while originally risky, has seemed to win a spot in most people's hearts. Maybe the fact that it looks a good deal like a VERY expensive Bentley? Who knows?
The one I'm waiting for is the SRT-8 due out next year. Now THAT should be HOT!!!

60 special
12-08-04, 09:04 AM
IMHO, Bob Lutz, the product czar from GM made a mistake when he had the design team tone down the edgy look of the STS just before it went into production. Look how successfull the CTS sales have been for the last two years. The STS would have a slightly more aggressive look if they he left it alone.

I see the 300c Hemi leading the pack right now in terms of looks, excitement and price point. When you see a 300, you know exactly what it is from 50 yards away. You can't say that about the STS and almost all the cars on the road today, unless you walk up to the car and look at the badges or if they retain the same grille design like Mercedes and BMW on different models. In 1986 when Cadillac downsized and destroyed two of its most beautiful models, the 1980-'85 Eldo and Seville you knew exactly what they were. People would say, That's a Cadillac! In 1986 they said That's a Cadillac???

Katshot
12-08-04, 09:32 AM
IMHO, Bob Lutz, the product czar from GM made a mistake when he had the design team tone down the edgy look of the STS just before it went into production. Look how successfull the CTS sales have been for the last two years. The STS would have a slightly more aggressive look if they he left it alone.

I see the 300c Hemi leading the pack right now in terms of looks, excitement and price point. When you see a 300, you know exactly what it is from 50 yards away. You can't say that about the STS and almost all the cars on the road today, unless you walk up to the car and look at the badges or if they retain the same grille design like Mercedes and BMW on different models. In 1986 when Cadillac downsized and destroyed two of its most beautiful models, the 1980-'85 Eldo and Seville you knew exactly what they were. People would say, That's a Cadillac! In 1986 they said That's a Cadillac???
And '85 for the Deville/Fleetwood.
Cadillac, like many others has lost it's personality. They think that by making their whole model line look virtually identical, they're emulating marques like BMW and M-B but in my mind it was the wrong move. Hell, look at the case of the CTS/STS. Look at the two in a side by side comparison. They are SO close it's not funny. And then to make them LOOK virtually identical, it's just silly to me. What's the point?

Rauf
12-08-04, 10:09 AM
I like the 300C -- very attractive styling -- and not the "me too" style of the others. Can't beat the price either -- really shouldn't be considered a competitor of the STS. I haven't seen pricing on the 2005 STS yet but suspect it will finally top $60K fully loaded.


Ells


(Post Script -- I saw another posted that showed loaded price of $65K.)

PPS - I buy where I make my money -- the US -- which limits me to either Ford or GM -- and it's doubtful I'll ever own a Ford product

The fully loaded STS's price is $68,330.

60 special
12-08-04, 10:46 AM
And '85 for the Deville/Fleetwood.
Cadillac, like many others has lost it's personality. They think that by making their whole model line look virtually identical, they're emulating marques like BMW and M-B but in my mind it was the wrong move. Hell, look at the case of the CTS/STS. Look at the two in a side by side comparison. They are SO close it's not funny. And then to make them LOOK virtually identical, it's just silly to me. What's the point?

I couldn't agree more. Why is Cadillac chasing the Europeans and trying to follow their lead? Why not set your own course? Take a gamble like Chrysler did with the 300.

harryctsv
12-08-04, 11:21 AM
the 300 c against the new STS is a joke.

I didn`t had the chance to drive the new STS jet, but I drove the 300c here in germany for a two day test drive and can tell you this.

the build quality overall of the 300 c is terrible. the hemi engine is not bad but I had it here in the range 200 km - 250 (120-155mph) the engine feels sloopy. I know where I´m talking about (my vette is super-strong - my xlr is strong) in that range.

All I can say, you really can feel the price difference from the 300c to the STS. 300c fully loaded in the us $ 38.000 - the STS about $ 62.000

the $ 24.000 is the difference of quality!!!

Harry

Katshot
12-08-04, 11:25 AM
I'm pretty sure the SRT-8 will cover those issues for you, and still be less money.
As for the Cadillac's styling, I have to give them respect for taking a chance on the edgy styling of the CTS, but to then just basically copy that over and over on every other model Cadillac is cheap IMO.

60 special
12-08-04, 12:35 PM
the 300 c against the new STS is a joke.

I didn`t had the chance to drive the new STS jet, but I drove the 300c here in germany for a two day test drive and can tell you this.

the build quality overall of the 300 c is terrible. the hemi engine is not bad but I had it here in the range 200 km - 250 (120-155mph) the engine feels sloopy. I know where I´m talking about (my vette is super-strong - my xlr is strong) in that range.

All I can say, you really can feel the price difference from the 300c to the STS. 300c fully loaded in the us $ 38.000 - the STS about $ 62.000

the $ 24.000 is the difference of quality!!!

Harry

I too would expect more quality and features for $24,000! But is it worth $24,000 to have a vanilla car? As I said before, you know what the 300 is from 50 yards away. You have to walk up to the STS to find out who built it.

Stoneage_Caddy
12-08-04, 12:42 PM
I dunno bout that , 100 yards away its a cadillac (none one else proudces stuff that looks like that) , but the problem is, is it a cts or sts ? just like katshot said , its hard to tell em apart

its nice looking , till you look at the front dead on , grille isnt wide enough ....the car appares to be a cts that was streched out like a ball of silly putty

harryctsv
12-08-04, 12:49 PM
hi katshot,

thats the way all car-makers do it now!
Look, Audi a4/a6 or a8, they all look the same only each one is a size bigger.
the same mercedes c e s-class over here in germany you see them so many and although I know all cars it`s somtimes hard to tell is it an a4 or a8 or
a c-class or s-class (espencialy from front and rear)
but the same is on compact cars, they all look the same
opel astra - vw golf - honda civic - peugeot 307 i can go on and on.

I love the look of my XLR

megeebee
12-08-04, 02:07 PM
hi katshot,

thats the way all car-makers do it now!
Look, Audi a4/a6 or a8, they all look the same only each one is a size bigger.
the same mercedes c e s-class over here in germany you see them so many and although I know all cars it`s somtimes hard to tell is it an a4 or a8 or
a c-class or s-class (espencialy from front and rear)
but the same is on compact cars, they all look the same
opel astra - vw golf - honda civic - peugeot 307 i can go on and on.

I love the look of my XLR


....Absolutely correct! I'm kinda tired of reading posts that whine about the STS's resembalance to the CTS. As an owner of a CTS I would say "what better car to resemble?" The STS does not copy the CTS as closely as the three current Mercedes' C, E, and S do each other. I think the headlamp units are the only real difference between them, apart from overall size.

And if I were you, I'd install glass walls in my garage so I could look at my XLR all the time.

Stoneage_Caddy
12-08-04, 02:35 PM
Sorry i wasnt saying its ugly , i like the way it looks (outside that grille)....Just wished it wasnt that close to the CTS in looks ....

put an XLR in a garage? shoot id kick the wifes coffie table out of the living room and park it there .......Has to be one of the most beatiful cars ever made .....

Katshot
12-08-04, 02:57 PM
....Absolutely correct! I'm kinda tired of reading posts that whine about the STS's resembalance to the CTS. As an owner of a CTS I would say "what better car to resemble?" The STS does not copy the CTS as closely as the three current Mercedes' C, E, and S do each other. I think the headlamp units are the only real difference between them, apart from overall size.

And if I were you, I'd install glass walls in my garage so I could look at my XLR all the time.

I'm SURE you have no problem with a far more expensive car looking like yours but I'll bet the first time a guy with a $60K STS has someone ask him how he likes his CTS, he'll be more than a little upset.

megeebee
12-08-04, 04:52 PM
No more upset than the man who buys an E class and gets asked how he likes his new "C".

Katshot
12-08-04, 05:38 PM
No more upset than the man who buys an E class and gets asked how he likes his new "C".

Never said that M-B was right now did I? Matter of fact, I believe I used them as an example of what I thought was wrong.

the Sandman
12-08-04, 06:37 PM
I'm SURE you have no problem with a far more expensive car looking like yours but I'll bet the first time a guy with a $60K STS has someone ask him how he likes his CTS, he'll be more than a little upset.I don't disagree with the premise that Cadillac Corporate could rethink certain aspects of their strategy, but if the STS is a great car, should it matter that it looks like a big CTS? You're not buying the Cadillac fleet, you're buying the STS. Shouldn't it sink or swim on it's own merits?

megeebee
12-08-04, 07:26 PM
Never said that M-B was right now did I? Matter of fact, I believe I used them as an example of what I thought was wrong.

I see your point. I meant no offense. But I must say that the near identical nature of the Mercedes sedans' designs hasn't hurt their sales at all.

Jesda
12-09-04, 01:55 AM
With strong offerings and a dash of new American patriotism, its down to the STS and 300C. The M45 will make a noticeable dent in Lexus and Acura sales.

harryctsv
12-09-04, 05:15 AM
Hi Megeebee,

with the glass walls for my garage is an idea I never thought about! sounds good an as cruzy I´m I might do something like it, we`ll see.
My big garage holds three cars, right now my XLR, my Vette conv. and my DTS is sitting there.
laugh.... with these cars I got my own car-show here in germany, you can believe it.
Thanks

Harry

ktills45
12-09-04, 08:04 AM
Here's my .02 on this debate.

I test drove the C series, BMW 325i and CTS for comparison. It was the first time ever I had test drove foreign cars with the intent to possibly purchase one.

After the test drives, I researched each vehicle by CR, Auto mags and online forums. The clear winner, imho, was the Cadillac. I was surprised that after all that, I would be drawn to an American car based on quality, reviews and owner comments.

First and foremost, Cadillac has to re establish it's brand image as world class engineering and world class quality. I believe that with the four new models it has released in the last 3 years, it has accomplished both goals. It's critically important for GM to now build upon the acknowledgement of the press and owners to aggressively promote this as a marketing strategy.

I think they realized that from the get go, which was the whole purpose of the A&S design philosophy. To now say that the cars all look the same misses the point. They have to all look like Cadillacs, so that the brand association is reinforced to the consuming public.

I'll agree that the STS should have been edgier, but the re-design can take the car in that direction in 4 years. The bottom line that will continue to sell these cars is the quality and the value that they bring to the segment that they compete in, and from what I can see Cadillac is nailing both.

As to the competition, all Japanese cars, with one or two exceptions, look bland to me. Even during Detroits lean years, they could out design the Aisans at every level.

I can't understand what MB is thinking. The Lexus is hideous, imho. As for the BMW 5 series, I used to hate it, but I've seen several in dark colors and I'm a fan of the design now. Since it took 2 years for me to get to like the CTS, that's not really a surprise. :D

Kadonny
12-09-04, 01:57 PM
I agree that Cadillac has vaulted itself directly into competition with MB, BMW, Audi and the Asian cars. I think now its just a matter of time to see if the GM product has the staying power the the imports have always had. GM cannot rest on its laurels, it must strive to continually improve its cars. From what I have seen over the past 2 years from Caddy, I really believe they will stay at the top.

megeebee
12-09-04, 05:13 PM
Hi Megeebee,

with the glass walls for my garage is an idea I never thought about! sounds good an as cruzy I´m I might do something like it, we`ll see.
My big garage holds three cars, right now my XLR, my Vette conv. and my DTS is sitting there.
laugh.... with these cars I got my own car-show here in germany, you can believe it.
Thanks

Harry

And hello to you Harryctsv;
Your collection of vehicles is one I do envy. Take care of them! I would love to hear your comments of how these American cars are regarded by Europeans. Does everyone there think we're crazy?

1SICKLEX
12-09-04, 08:28 PM
The STS has unfortunately gotten overshawdowed. No one is talking about it. The 300C offers the same if not better performance, size and distinctive styling for much less. The 300C seems to be embraced by the popular culture that embraced the Esclade. Every month some magazine has the 300C on it. Its like the new STS never even came out.
Which is a same. The exterior is a love or hate thing but is very different. Caddy really needs to advertise the fact you can get AWD WITH the V-8 while others only offer AWD with the V-6. THings against it. Price. 68k for a loaded STS is nuts. You can get a loaded LS 430 for that. The interior seems to be no better than the previous gen STS (which was very nice).
Acura RL is on C&D 10 best list, 300C has won car of the year. The STS is getting no attention.
Another car getting no attention is the new Audi A6. Its like it the new version never came out.
With the Lexus GS and Infintii M35/45 coming, the competition is very, very thick right now.

harryctsv
12-10-04, 06:15 AM
Hi Megeebee
no, the americans are not crazy and many germans like the american cars
but.....the german average engine is a 4 cylinder, so the first thing they say is
"this V8s uses to much of gas"
"too much on taxes and insurance - we pay by cubic inch and horses"
"and till in the late 80s the cars was too big for most european roads"

well, for me I can tell I loved the us-cars when I was about 10 yrs. old.
In the town where I live we got about 10.ooo us-soldiers and I saw in the
60s-70s so many good looking CHEVELLE SS - PONTIAC GTO - OLDS 442
BUICK GS - PLYMOUTH ROAD-RUNNER - IMPALA SS and more, and the love for us-cars is not gone.
My first car was a 71 CAMARO 350 SS with a four on the floor.

My next new buy will be a CTS-V or an 05 STS

now don`t laugh!!!!! my daughter is driving a purple 2004 GTO - fathers steps!!!!!!

thanks
Harry

harryctsv
12-10-04, 06:43 AM
it`s again me Megeebee

I know your gasoline prices run around $ 1,80 gallon, do you know what we pay for?
1 Liter costs today arround Euro 1,10 that`s about $ 1,46
one gallon is 3,78 Ltrs. so one gallon cost you here $ 5,52

and forgot to say that the new american V8s uses less gas than the german V8s.
bye now
Harry

Katshot
12-10-04, 07:41 AM
Sales is what drives most car companies, especially American car companies. But in MY mind, big sales numbers mean nothing. I love a car because of what it IS, not how popular it is, or how many are sold. Hell, the models with the highest, are usually the most bland. Vanilla cars sell more because they don't offend anyone's senses. They're bought by price mostly, and features secondly. Performance and styling are usually low on the check list for these buyers. I, on the other hand, specifically narrow my potential buying field down by those two points first, and then the test drive makes my decision for me. There've been lots of cars that I WANTED BAD, right up until I drove them ('03-'04 Mustang Cobra, and Infinite FX45 to name a couple).
So pointing out that Cadillac's sales "obviously" points to their success, is post on me. Styling your whole line alike to reinforce ease of brand identification is a lame idea to me, even though it may help sell cars. This one reason I applaud many imports for their courage. The infinite line, the Lexus line, just to name a few are examples that I would use to show that your whole line need not look cookie-cutterish. The flip-side would obviously be the BMW or M-B lines. Virtually every car looks the same, and to me, that's just boring. It's like they only offer one car, just with different levels of trim and performance. BORING!!

CaddyFan2004
12-10-04, 05:54 PM
... THings against it. Price. 68k for a loaded STS is nuts. You can get a loaded LS 430 for that. .

Not true. A loaded LS430 is $74k, and that's with no AWD, no MR ride system, and 30 HP less than STS.


Base MSRP* $55,675.00

Delivery, Processing & Handling Fee† $650.00

Available Packages $17,799.00
• Ultra Luxury Selection with Pre-Collision System (PCS) with Additional Options
- Ultra Luxury Selection with Pre-Collision System (PCS)
- Interior Upgrade Package with perforated semi-aniline leather trim
- 18-inch all-season tires with Lexus Chrome Wheels
- Preferred Accessory Package (includes Cargo net, Trunk mat and Wheel locks)



Accessory Options $0.00
• Interior Upgrade Package with perforated semi-aniline leather trim Included
• 18-inch all-season tires with Lexus Chrome Wheels Included
• Preferred Accessory Package (includes Cargo net, Trunk mat and Wheel locks) Included
• XM Satellite Radio® (see dealer)


Total MSRP** $74,124.00

Playdrv4me
12-11-04, 05:03 AM
Anyone who confuses a C-Class Mercedes for an S-Class is an absolute twit, no offense but theres at least uhh... a foot+, LED Taillights, quad headlights vs. a single headlamp unit, sweeping roofline vs. somewhat staggered roofline...yea. The C class is crap compared to the 3 Series, and even the CTS for that matter. From the outside you can TELL the C Class is the CHEAP Mercedes for the Masses... yick.

With that out of the way, the Lexus is only 74000.00 loaded up because Lexus WANTS it to be. When the first LS400 came out in 1989 as a 1990 model, it was considered an absolute BARGAIN at 35000.00. As soon as Lexus caught on to the fact that the Yanks were scooping them up faster than mint chocolate chip at the local Baskin Robbins, they incrementally raised the price. Then in 2001 the LS REALLY got good with the addition of the Ultra Luxury package, which is the BIG reason the final jump from 50k luxury cruiser to 72k Luxury COMPETITOR WITH THE BIG GUYS happened. They threw in stuff other brands would not see for at least 4 more years (i.e... STS). Adaptive Laser Cruise Control, a refrigerator in the backseat, backseat LCD display and radio controls, heated and cooled front seats, Mark Levinson audio and Touchscreen Navigation, headlight washers, yada yada.. you get the picture.

In that sense, Lexus and Cadillac are very similar. Lexus went from 50k max to 72k max in one model year by adding a slew of options that justified the prestige and price of the highline model. Cadillac is in essence doing the same thing.

eamc
12-14-04, 11:31 AM
Re overshadowing: I do not know about looks, but I am impressed that all the possibly "overshadowing" cars are sufficiently retro not to offer both AWD and Adaptive Cruise Control. The Audi 8 and 8L is the only one that does, and their new A6 offers ACC in Europe but not in the U.S. You must give Cadillac credit for a complete assortment of truly new technology (ACC), unlike the stick-in-the-mud designs (technically) of yesteryear that don't even give you the option to purchase something you may want. Even Mercedes pulled ACC out of their E series, even BMW does not offer both nor does Lincoln.

Edwin M.

eamc
12-14-04, 11:38 AM
Regarding the "overshadowing" cars, looks are a question of taste, but I am impressed by the fact that they (Lexus, BMW, Mercedes E, Nissan, etc.) are all sufficiently RETRO not to offer both AWD and Adaptive Cruise Control (with the exception of the Audi A8 and A8L). You have to give Cadillac credit for offering a choice of new technologies (especially ACC) while so many other manufacturers have stuck-in-the-mud technology. Why not offer customers something that they may want?

Edwin M.

harryctsv
12-14-04, 11:43 AM
hi eamc,

I´m german and got a Audi dealer 2 miles away and I can tell you that no
ACC on any Audi is available. Who told you this????
You can`t even get it on the Audi W12 6 litre!

My XLR got it standard!

Harry

60 special
12-14-04, 12:25 PM
Anyone who confuses a C-Class Mercedes for an S-Class is an absolute twit, no offense but theres at least uhh... a foot+, LED Taillights, quad headlights vs. a single headlamp unit, sweeping roofline vs. somewhat staggered roofline...yea. The C class is crap compared to the 3 Series, and even the CTS for that matter. From the outside you can TELL the C Class is the CHEAP Mercedes for the Masses... yick.

With that out of the way, the Lexus is only 74000.00 loaded up because Lexus WANTS it to be. When the first LS400 came out in 1989 as a 1990 model, it was considered an absolute BARGAIN at 35000.00. As soon as Lexus caught on to the fact that the Yanks were scooping them up faster than mint chocolate chip at the local Baskin Robbins, they incrementally raised the price. Then in 2001 the LS REALLY got good with the addition of the Ultra Luxury package, which is the BIG reason the final jump from 50k luxury cruiser to 72k Luxury COMPETITOR WITH THE BIG GUYS happened. They threw in stuff other brands would not see for at least 4 more years (i.e... STS). Adaptive Laser Cruise Control, a refrigerator in the backseat, backseat LCD display and radio controls, heated and cooled front seats, Mark Levinson audio and Touchscreen Navigation, headlight washers, yada yada.. you get the picture.

In that sense, Lexus and Cadillac are very similar. Lexus went from 50k max to 72k max in one model year by adding a slew of options that justified the prestige and price of the highline model. Cadillac is in essence doing the same thing.

You missed it on the 1990 Lexus LS. Japan is known as one of the first and worst offenders when it comes to predatory pricing. The LS was introduced in the U.S. at an artificially low price. The result, it became an instant competitor for Cadillac and Lincoln. The price did what it was supposed to do and that was to get people into the showrooms. Of course all the dealerships were brand new and absolutely stunning. The sales staff at these stores were highly trained in product knowledge and customer service. In one short year Lexus was on the map and they increased pricing over the next two to three years. You couldn't even think about buying that same Lexus in Japan for what it was being sold for here in the states. Our country is famous for letting foreign competition come in and buy market share at the expense of our own manufacturers. It happens in every industry now and the next disaster is being negotiated right now between the U.S. and China concerning textiles. Import quotas from China disappear 01/01/05. the Chinese are considering holding their quotas due to the possible retaliation by the U.S.

eamc
12-14-04, 03:34 PM
Hi Harry

Audi 2005 A8 and A8L both offer ACC. It is on page 37 of the 2005 booklet C-A8-05-003US. I have driven an A8L about 3 months ago and loved the ACC system, although it did not have as much brake action as Mercedes.

Edwin M.

ellives
12-14-04, 07:29 PM
You missed it on the 1990 Lexus LS. Japan is known as one of the first and worst offenders when it comes to predatory pricing. The LS was introduced in the U.S. at an artificially low price. The result, it became an instant competitor for Cadillac and Lincoln. The price did what it was supposed to do and that was to get people into the showrooms. Of course all the dealerships were brand new and absolutely stunning. The sales staff at these stores were highly trained in product knowledge and customer service. In one short year Lexus was on the map and they increased pricing over the next two to three years. You couldn't even think about buying that same Lexus in Japan for what it was being sold for here in the states. Our country is famous for letting foreign competition come in and buy market share at the expense of our own manufacturers. It happens in every industry now and the next disaster is being negotiated right now between the U.S. and China concerning textiles. Import quotas from China disappear 01/01/05. the Chinese are considering holding their quotas due to the possible retaliation by the U.S.


This behavior of Toyota buying market share is only possible because of their profitability. They're making more than GM and Ford put together by far and can afford to spend the excess cash on buying market share knowing full well that Americans are, for the most part, lemmings that follow the latest trend on anything. Of course, as I've said before, GM's biggest profitability problem is their pension. It's time to do something before it sinks them.

My greatest hope is that the Toyota Avalon becomes tomorrows Oldsmobile Cutlass which were found in every upscale american home back in the early 70's... my how times have changed.

Ells

cadillacchromer
12-15-04, 12:13 PM
Man that M45 looks great.. very aggressive. :coolgleam

Doesnt it. That car looks sweet

CaddyFan2004
12-15-04, 06:25 PM
This behavior of Toyota buying market share is only possible because of their profitability. They're making more than GM and Ford put together by far and can afford to spend the excess cash on buying market share knowing full well that Americans are, for the most part, lemmings that follow the latest trend on anything. Of course, as I've said before, GM's biggest profitability problem is their pension. It's time to do something before it sinks them.

My greatest hope is that the Toyota Avalon becomes tomorrows Oldsmobile Cutlass which were found in every upscale american home back in the early 70's... my how times have changed.

Ells

That's your greatest hope - that Toyota takes over the US automotive market? Boy, that'd be great for the economy...

ellives
12-15-04, 07:01 PM
That's your greatest hope - that Toyota takes over the US automotive market? Boy, that'd be great for the economy...

Um no. That wasn't my point. My hope was that the Avalon becomes the car that everyone hates because it's too boring... just like what happened to the Olds. Face it -- it's ALREADY boring.... but the lemmings continue to buy.

If I had my way I'd add a 50% tarriff to all imports.

CaddyFan2004
12-15-04, 10:06 PM
Um no. That wasn't my point. My hope was that the Avalon becomes the car that everyone hates because it's too boring... just like what happened to the Olds. Face it -- it's ALREADY boring.... but the lemmings continue to buy.

If I had my way I'd add a 50% tarriff to all imports.

OK, sorry. Sarcasm... gotcha.

The one that gets me is the Accord. Totally milk toast, but they sell a ton of them.

1SICKLEX
12-15-04, 10:20 PM
Not true. A loaded LS430 is $74k, and that's with no AWD, no MR ride system, and 30 HP less than STS.


Base MSRP* $55,675.00

Delivery, Processing & Handling Fee† $650.00

Available Packages $17,799.00
• Ultra Luxury Selection with Pre-Collision System (PCS) with Additional Options
- Ultra Luxury Selection with Pre-Collision System (PCS)
- Interior Upgrade Package with perforated semi-aniline leather trim
- 18-inch all-season tires with Lexus Chrome Wheels
- Preferred Accessory Package (includes Cargo net, Trunk mat and Wheel locks)



Accessory Options $0.00
• Interior Upgrade Package with perforated semi-aniline leather trim Included
• 18-inch all-season tires with Lexus Chrome Wheels Included
• Preferred Accessory Package (includes Cargo net, Trunk mat and Wheel locks) Included
• XM Satellite Radio® (see dealer)


Total MSRP** $74,124.00


Right but the STS is not LS 430 competition. It is more GS 430/E class/5 series competition.

1SICKLEX
12-15-04, 10:27 PM
You missed it on the 1990 Lexus LS. Japan is known as one of the first and worst offenders when it comes to predatory pricing. The LS was introduced in the U.S. at an artificially low price. The result, it became an instant competitor for Cadillac and Lincoln. The price did what it was supposed to do and that was to get people into the showrooms. Of course all the dealerships were brand new and absolutely stunning. The sales staff at these stores were highly trained in product knowledge and customer service. In one short year Lexus was on the map and they increased pricing over the next two to three years. You couldn't even think about buying that same Lexus in Japan for what it was being sold for here in the states. Our country is famous for letting foreign competition come in and buy market share at the expense of our own manufacturers. It happens in every industry now and the next disaster is being negotiated right now between the U.S. and China concerning textiles. Import quotas from China disappear 01/01/05. the Chinese are considering holding their quotas due to the possible retaliation by the U.S.


Anyone who confuses a C-Class Mercedes for an S-Class is an absolute twit, no offense but theres at least uhh... a foot+, LED Taillights, quad headlights vs. a single headlamp unit, sweeping roofline vs. somewhat staggered roofline...yea. The C class is crap compared to the 3 Series, and even the CTS for that matter. From the outside you can TELL the C Class is the CHEAP Mercedes for the Masses... yick.

With that out of the way, the Lexus is only 74000.00 loaded up because Lexus WANTS it to be. When the first LS400 came out in 1989 as a 1990 model, it was considered an absolute BARGAIN at 35000.00. As soon as Lexus caught on to the fact that the Yanks were scooping them up faster than mint chocolate chip at the local Baskin Robbins, they incrementally raised the price. Then in 2001 the LS REALLY got good with the addition of the Ultra Luxury package, which is the BIG reason the final jump from 50k luxury cruiser to 72k Luxury COMPETITOR WITH THE BIG GUYS happened. They threw in stuff other brands would not see for at least 4 more years (i.e... STS). Adaptive Laser Cruise Control, a refrigerator in the backseat, backseat LCD display and radio controls, heated and cooled front seats, Mark Levinson audio and Touchscreen Navigation, headlight washers, yada yada.. you get the picture.

In that sense, Lexus and Cadillac are very similar. Lexus went from 50k max to 72k max in one model year by adding a slew of options that justified the prestige and price of the highline model. Cadillac is in essence doing the same thing.

Well I think we are forgetting a huge factor. The Yen=dollar exchange. It was low and Japan was right before their real estate bomb when Lexus debuted. And clearly the competition was overpriced. When the Japanese economy bombed and the Yen dropped, the price of ALL Japanese products went through the roof. That is why the Lexus LS went from 35k-50k in 5 years.

Second, remember the U. S threatned 100% tariffs against many imported products in 1994/1995. People bought their Lexus thinking a LS 400 would be 100k in a month. But everyone came to a pretty lame agreement, thus no sanctions.

The LS 430 is now 74k loaded as ya'll have stated. It is still 15k less than a comparably equipped 745 BMW or S class Benz.

Caddy is doing great things. The V-series cars(s). Their whole lineup is almost new. But the competiton HAS NOT rested on its laurels like Caddy did for 20 years.

IMO, I thought the STS of 1992 (I think that is when it came out) was incredible. But what the hell where they thinking with the so conservative 2nd generation? They went the Acura route of truly trying to make people think FWD was sporty.

I hope the new STS does well. But so far, all I see/hear is about the 3rd gen GS and new Infiniti M35/45

ellives
12-16-04, 07:07 AM
Well I think we are forgetting a huge factor. The Yen=dollar exchange. It was low and Japan was right before their real estate bomb when Lexus debuted. And clearly the competition was overpriced. When the Japanese economy bombed and the Yen dropped, the price of ALL Japanese products went through the roof. That is why the Lexus LS went from 35k-50k in 5 years.

Second, remember the U. S threatned 100% tariffs against many imported products in 1994/1995. People bought their Lexus thinking a LS 400 would be 100k in a month. But everyone came to a pretty lame agreement, thus no sanctions.

The LS 430 is now 74k loaded as ya'll have stated. It is still 15k less than a comparably equipped 745 BMW or S class Benz.

Caddy is doing great things. The V-series cars(s). Their whole lineup is almost new. But the competiton HAS NOT rested on its laurels like Caddy did for 20 years.

IMO, I thought the STS of 1992 (I think that is when it came out) was incredible. But what the hell where they thinking with the so conservative 2nd generation? They went the Acura route of truly trying to make people think FWD was sporty.

I hope the new STS does well. But so far, all I see/hear is about the 3rd gen GS and new Infiniti M35/45

When the next generation came out, they tried to make mild changes, again to avoid the shock to the market of potential customers of drastic changes. Clearly this approach did not work effectively and thus a drastic change in styling. Clearly this is an area where Chrysler is and has been much more willing to take risk.

Ells

ellives
12-16-04, 07:09 AM
Right but the STS is not LS 430 competition. It is more GS 430/E class/5 series competition.

Agreed - as we've discussed here before. The closest match to the LS is the Deville....

Ells

Katshot
12-16-04, 08:01 AM
Agreed - as we've discussed here before. The closest match to the LS is the Deville....

Ells

Absolutely! It's about time someone mentioned that. IMO, the Deville should be the car pitted against the 7-series and S-class, not the STS. The STS SHOULD be the 5-series/E-class fighter. Might be wrong about that "E-class" point, I don't know the M-B line very well, but I think you get my point.

harryctsv
12-16-04, 08:09 AM
Hi Edwin M,

yes, I was half way wrong because the ACC was first available for the us-market. Here in germany they offer the first ACC on the new A8 W12 which is out a short time.
Well, I´m allways willing to learn.

Harry

lowscola
12-16-04, 02:04 PM
The STS is a direct competitor to, and matches up well with, the 5 series, E-class, A6, M45, RL, GS, 300C a similarly classed/sized vehicles. The LS 430, S-class and 745 are the big boys and will be delt with when the new DeVille...I mean DTS comes out. I'm not talking about the slight refresh for 06 but the all new end-of-the-decade replacement. The STS can only hold the fort but for so long and it is already taking alot of shots from the competition. The all new DTS will give Cadillac a chance to not only fend off the competition but actually put a nail in the coffin. It will have technology like the new BOSE suspension that uses ions or essentially charged particles that react faster than convetional hydralic suspensions. Currently the DeVille is only the Cadillac flagship in name as the STS is showcasing the best of Caddy...

1SICKLEX
12-16-04, 06:30 PM
I forgot about the DTS. I like the current one. I think its big and says Caddilac very well. It is b/c its FWD? They look sinister in black with the chrome wheels.

ellives
12-16-04, 07:32 PM
The STS is a direct competitor to, and matches up well with, the 5 series, E-class, A6, M45, RL, GS, 300C a similarly classed/sized vehicles. The LS 430, S-class and 745 are the big boys and will be delt with when the new DeVille...I mean DTS comes out. I'm not talking about the slight refresh for 06 but the all new end-of-the-decade replacement. The STS can only hold the fort but for so long and it is already taking alot of shots from the competition. The all new DTS will give Cadillac a chance to not only fend off the competition but actually put a nail in the coffin. It will have technology like the new BOSE suspension that uses ions or essentially charged particles that react faster than convetional hydralic suspensions. Currently the DeVille is only the Cadillac flagship in name as the STS is showcasing the best of Caddy...

New BOSE suspension? I have no clue what that is. It sounds suspiciously like Magnetic Ride Control. I have a Bose stereo in my STS though. :)

I don't believe the Deville has been the flagship since the bustleback style Seville was originally released in 1980. You might be able to argue the Deville was considered a step up in '76 when the Seville was originally released but never since 1980.

Ells

1996STS
12-17-04, 01:56 AM
October '04 issue of Car and Driver has an article about the Bose suspension system. It shows a Lexus LS400 jumping over a 2x6 "as gracefully as a horse leaps over a steeplechase fence." Motor trend also did an article about, while referencing cadillac's magnetic suspension and calling it obsolete.

http://motortrend.com/features/consumer/112_0501_bosesuspension/
http://caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=8560&page_number=1

ellives
12-17-04, 02:16 AM
October '04 issue of Car and Driver has an article about the Bose suspension system. It shows a Lexus LS400 jumping over a 2x6 "as gracefully as a horse leaps over a steeplechase fence." Motor trend also did an article about, while referencing cadillac's magnetic suspension and calling it obsolete.

http://motortrend.com/features/consumer/112_0501_bosesuspension/
http://caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=8560&page_number=1

Sweet stuff! Wow!

Vrocks
12-17-04, 02:22 AM
The picture of the CLS doesn't do it justice, and the Infiniti is the only other good looking competitor. The 300C at the absolute bottom in the looks department, and the Lexus has a bulbous look to it.

The CLS to my knowledge is positioned more towards buyers looking at a BMW 6 series type of vehicle, not the Cadillac STS. The E class is more inline with the STS's design characteristics and price (not the E55 or a loaded E500). And where exactly does the Infiniti fit in? My guess would be that it will feel similar to the STS, and it has a sporty look like the STS. However I don't believe their past efforts at luxury sedans were very successful, so it'll be interesting to see how sales pan out.

The STS certainly isn't overshadowed by the 300C, Infiniti or the Lexus. While the Mercedes CLS SEDAN seems to be in a different product segment of its own.

1SICKLEX
12-21-04, 04:09 PM
I think Bose has some nice tech with its "suspension" experiement but their sound systems are bargain basement and they are just riding the name "bose'. They need to fix their sound systems, especially in cars first. Then make a suspension for a car.

ellives
12-21-04, 06:22 PM
I think Bose has some nice tech with its "suspension" experiement but their sound systems are bargain basement and they are just riding the name "bose'. They need to fix their sound systems, especially in cars first. Then make a suspension for a car.


How do you support a contention their sound systems are bargain basement?