: Bbob Look



1993 eldorado green1
04-10-04, 03:26 AM
Hi Ima New Member Here And Im Having A Problem With A 93 Eldorado, I Cleaned Those Egr Plates And Now The Cars Acting Up, I Have Replaced The Gaskets On Them And Checked For A Leak With The Engine Running And Find Nothing, The Car Now When I Hit The Throttle It Revs To Like 4000 Rpm And Very Slowly Slows Down, It Wont Idle No Less Than 1300, It Also Does This When I Drive, It Almost Caused A Accident Today Cause I Couldnt Get The Car Stopped Because Of The High Idle, There Is No Vacum Lines Off And Im Not Sure Where To Look Now, I Checked For Codes But The Only One Is The Same P080 That Its Always Had, There Is A Seneor On The Throttle Linkage That Is Causing The Problem, But If I Unplug It The Car Wont Start, It Also Cranks Forever Before Starting And I Can Hear It Popping From The Engine When Its Trying To Start, Please If U Have Any Ideas Let Me Know, Thank You!!!!

ThomasO
04-10-04, 09:00 AM
Did you ever try bBob's suggestions offered: http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10899

"I would start by cleaning the throttle body to make sure the throttle blade is not hanging on some deposits. Hold the throttle blade wide open with the engine off and spray the throttle body bore with carb cleaner and scrub with an old tooth brush...also clean the backside of the throttle blade. Get the desposits off the ID of the throttle bore and blade backside so that the system can control the idle correctly. Disconnect the negative battery cable for 30 seconds when you do this to reset the idle learn offsets for immediate response to the cleaning process."

Did you try "Disconnect the negative battery cable for 30 seconds when you do this to reset the idle learn offsets for immediate response to the cleaning process."?..................Tom

1993 eldorado green1
04-10-04, 11:06 AM
tom yes i did in fact clean the throttle body just how you guys said, also i cleaned the egr valve too, as for the idle relearn process, im gonna go try that process now, if you notice the car in question for that relearn is a 1998 sts and the electronics are very different than on my 1993 car, someone on here told me that to reset the idle i had too turn the key on for 30 seconds then off for thirty seconds, and thats how you reset it, but i guess they could have been wrong, ill go try that relearn process right now and ill let you guys know how it goes, thanks.

growe3
04-10-04, 12:10 PM
It sounds like you have only partially controlled air flow into the engine. This can be caused be many things. I may have a few ideas, but I need to know what the car was running like before you started working on it, and how did you do the repairs.

How did you get access to clean the phenolic spacer plates; did you raise the intake manifold or remove it?

Are you absolutely sure that you did not mix up any of the nylon vacuum tubes that connect to the top of the throttle body?

-George

1993 eldorado green1
04-10-04, 01:18 PM
ok now i tried the relearn process and i didnt make no difference, and as far as how did i clean the spacers i removed the top cover, removed 4 bolts, and lifted the intake manifold and removed the spacers one at a time, and cleaned all the carbon out, they were packed really badly with carbon, i then put a thin (very thin) layer of high temp rtv over the gaskets to ensure a good seal and reinstalled them the way they were, even the same sides. i have already run the engine and sprayed carb cleaner all around the intake and throttle body and found nothing leaking on the outside, i would think that if it was leaking on the inside that it wouldnt really much matter because all the runners draw from there anyway, but i didnt find any leaks anywere. im gonna go outside and try to switch those vacum lines around on the throttle body and see if it solves the problem, what ever the computer controled sensor attathed to the throttle body is i can see it moving and changing the idle around, the car seem to run good before i did this but i found the green wire on the throttle position sensor was broke before, i fixed that too and now the problems occured, but now the trans shifts smooth and the car has so much power it seems like a new animal. so before it ran good but slammed gears all the time(felt lika a shift kit in the trans) and now its smooth and shifts normal and has alot of power but this idle thing is killing me, also something else, when i floor this thing it seems to kinda surge through first gear, i dont know if thats releated or not, well thanks ill be back in a few mins to check up on any suggestions.

1993 eldorado green1
04-10-04, 02:40 PM
i also just checked codes with the engine running and got current codes p080 and p083, but only get code p080 when engine is off, could this be the culpurit?

Lawrence
04-10-04, 02:48 PM
CIRCUIT DESCRIPTION
This diagnostic test checks to see if initial Throttle Position (TP) Sensor/Learn and Idle Learn values have been stored in the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) . If these values have not been stored, Code P080 is set. Performing the TP Sensor/Idle Learn Procedure described below will cause Code P080 to become history.

TP SENSOR/IDLE LEARN PROCEDURE

IMPORTANT: Make sure nothing is touching or obstructing the accelerator or brake pedals, the heated windshield is turned off, and there is no load on the power steering during the TP learn procedure because this will prevent the PCM from performing the learn routine.



Turn ignition to "ON" (engine not running).
Enter diagnostics.
Turn ignition to "OFF."
Wait a minimum of 20 seconds.
Turn ignition to "ON" (engine not running).
Enter diagnostics.
Turn ignition to "OFF."
Wait a minimum of 20 seconds.
Turn ignition to "ON" (engine not running).
Enter diagnostics.
Turn ignition to "OFF."
Wait a minimum of 20 seconds. IMPORTANT: Make sure that the outside air temperature is at least 10C (50F) so that the A/C compressor will turn "ON."
Start the engine.
Allow the vehicle to idle continuously until the coolant temperature is 80C, then idle an additional 5 minutes.
Apply the brakes and place the transaxle in "DRIVE" range.
Turn the Climate Control Center (CCC) to "OFF" and allow the engine to idle for 30 seconds.
Turn the CCC to "AUTO" and allow the engine to idle for another 30 seconds.
Place the transaxle in "PARK" range and turn ignition to "OFF." IMPORTANT: Because of the engine load differences with the A/C "ON" verses "OFF" the Idle Learn must be performed under both conditions. NOTE : If code PO80 does not change to history following the completion of this procedure, refer to "NOTES ON FAULT TREE" in this article.
TEST CONDITIONS
Test continuously.

FAILURE CONDITIONS
No TP sensor learn value is stored.
OR
No idle learn value is stored.

ACTION TAKEN
PCM turns "ON" the Malfunction Indicator Lamp (MIL) (Service Engine Soon).

NOTES ON FAULT TREE
If Code P080 does not change to history following the completion of the TP Sensor/Idle Learn Procedure, this may be due to incorrect or erratic signals from the following sensors:



TP Switch
TP Sensor
Vehicle Speed Sensor
Transaxle Range Switch (Park/Neutral Input)
Power Steering Pressure Switch
Brake Switch
High electrical loads may disable TP Sensor/Idle Learn. Components that may produce a high electrical load are the headlamps, the rear defogger, high HVAC blower and the cooling fans. If difficulty is encountered learning TP Sensor/Idle values (i.e. Code P080 remains current), turn "OFF" these high electrical loads. Also, it is important to accelerate the engine above 1000 rpm after turning "OFF" the above components because the PCM will think it is still under a high electrical load until it checks the system again (when engine rpm exceeds 1000 rpm). Furthermore, since the cooling fans cannot be manually controlled, engine coolant temperature must be below 105C and A/C refrigerant temperature must be below 51C in order to turn "OFF" the high speed cooling fans and their high electrical load.

Code P080 may also remain current if the idle is rough or unstable. Correct problems with these sensor's signals or the idle before attempting to perform the TP Sensor/Idle Learn.

Lawrence
04-10-04, 03:06 PM
CIRCUIT DESCRIPTION
This diagnostic test checks for 24X signal at a logic high condition. The fault could be induced by the failure of either Crankshaft Position A or B Sensor input signal to the Ignition Control Module (ICM) . Under such a condition, the ICM would force the 24X signal high. This test also checks for 24X shorted to battery externally. If either condition is met, Code P083 is set.

TEST CONDITIONS


Code PO35 is not set.
Engine speed greater than 496 rpm and less than 1200 rpm.
Number of CAM pulses since key "ON" is 7 or greater.
Ignition control not in bypass.
FAILURE CONDITIONS
24X signal at a logic HI and no 24X reference pulses received since last CAM pulse.

ACTION TAKEN
PCM turns "ON" the Malfunction Indicator Lamp (MIL) (Service Engine Soon).

NOTES ON FAULT TREE
(Part 1 of 2)


Checking if Code P035 is set because a REF LO problem can cause other ignition problems.
If the engine stalls, the problem is with crankshaft position "B" sensor because the engine will remain running with only one crankshaft sensor.
Checking crankshaft position "B" sensor and circuitry for opens or shorts. The correct resistance should be between 800 ohms and 1600 ohms.
Checking if CKT 470 or CKT 1800 is shorted to ground. If CKT is shorted to ground it will measure less than 100 ohms.
If the sensor is able to produce a DC voltage greater than 0.25 volt, the sensor is OK. (Part 2 of 2)
If engine stalls, the problem is with crankshaft position "A" sensor. If the engine remains running, the ignition control module or CKT 647 are shorted high.
Checking crankshaft position "A" sensor and circuitry for opens or shorts. The correct resistance should be between 800 ohms and 1600 ohms.
Checking if CKT 573 or CKT 574 is shorted to ground. If the CKT is shorted to ground it will measure less than 100 ohms.
If the sensor is able to produce a DC voltage greater than 0.25 volt the sensor is OK.
Checking if CKT 647 is shorted high or if the ICM is keeping it high. If you measure greater than 0 Hertz, the ICM and CKT 647 are OK, the fault is intermittent.

Lawrence
04-10-04, 03:17 PM
Likely not your problem. Must be intermitant codes.

Have you checked that the throttle linkage or ISC motor are not holding the throttle plate open?

growe3
04-10-04, 04:18 PM
You should not have removed the top cover of the intake manifold. You only need to remove the four recessed bolts, then the intake can be raised, blocked in place with a couple of 2x4's and the phenolic spacers slipped out for cleaning.

Go back over the top cover bolts again, and make sure they are all snugged down. Check the four recessed intake manifold bolts also.

The gaskets did not need any kind of sealant. Those gaskets are very tough and are reusable if not bent. They should simply be cleaned off with thinner or spray brake cleaner, and allowed to dry a few minutes before assembling the intake parts
.
To remove the intake completly as you have you must be careful to make sure that the small vacuum lines are in the correct location, they can be mixed up. If you had difficulty getting the tubes to fit back in place, this may have happened.

It may also be that the throttle cable is not engaged properly. With the engine OFF, take the air intake tube off, look in the throttle body and visually verify that the throttle completly opens and closes by working the throttle by hand or someone can press the gas pedal from inside the car. The throttle should completly close with no binding or help of any kind.

I see that Lawrence has provided you with the Idle Learn procedure so you have that information to work with. Please do the above checks first as the computer can't learn, with air leaks or mismatched vacuum lines.

I have threel pictures that I just shot of the vacuum tubes. If you want I can send them to you. They are about 215 kb. They can be zoomed in on very close for examination to help you confirm their location.

Note that by cleaning the EGR paths it is easy to get chunks loose that may find their way to the EGR valve. I would remove the EGR valve and clean the valve by flushing it out with spray brake cleaner. Before putting it back on the car use a vacuum cleaner to briefly suck on the EGR valve mounting pad on the head. The EGR gasket may tear, but if you are careful you can apply a very thin coat of silicone to assure a good seal.

-George
growe3@pacbell.net

1993 eldorado green1
04-10-04, 04:25 PM
finally after doing that relearn process it idles at like 900 rpm, sounds good, im gonna go take it for a drive and see if it stays good like it is now, thank you guys both for all your input on my mess over here, oh and just before you wrote your articl growe3 i cleaned and resealed the gaskets again, and i only used a very very thin layer of silicone to get a good seal on the gaskets, but i see what you were saying, well ima go take her for a drive, and ill check codes when i get back, thanks again, wish me luck!!:rolleyes:

growe3
04-10-04, 04:28 PM
finally after doing that relearn process it idles at like 900 rpm, sounds good, im gonna go take it for a drive and see if it stays good like it is now, thank you guys both for all your input on my mess over here, oh and just before you wrote your articl growe3 i cleaned and resealed the gaskets again, and i only used a very very thin layer of silicone to get a good seal on the gaskets, but i see what you were saying, well ima go take her for a drive, and ill check codes when i get back, thanks again, wish me luck!!:rolleyes:
GOOD LUCK!!

1993 eldorado green1
04-10-04, 04:41 PM
thank you lawrence for that priceless info, she runs like a dream and when doing a key on engine off she shoes all codes as history, even that p080 that its had for like the last 6 months or so, so it looks like i can move on to the other stuff, i still gotta ride control issue and an air bag issue, but for now, thank you guys (growe3 and lawrence ) :worship: and everyone else for being here to help out, helps me alot in my pocket book, the dealer wanted 150 to turn off that change trans fluid light but i got the secret from a trans guy that i know for free, they probably would have wanted 2000 to do that relearn process for me. any way, if you guys ever need any help from me dont be afraid to ask me im on or checking this every day and night, or my yahoo is james131gc@yahoo.com thats also my email address, thanks again, this problems solved!!!!!!!:):D ;)