: How to clean Piston Rings my way



AJxtcman
06-27-07, 06:40 AM
First I will show the problem with the old GM way to clean the rings.
The chemicals used in the kit will damage metal parts including crank bearings.
GM has a new chemical, but no new procedure yet.
The apparatus used to inject the chemical cleaner plugs up the nozzles. Also the cleaner will flow into the cylinder with the least resistance. If you are pushing the cleaner in to 4 cylinders you have to have at least one valve open.

AJxtcman
06-27-07, 06:48 AM
GM Upper Engine and Fuel Injector Cleaner p/n 88861802 (in Canada, 88861804) (fig. 6) replaces GM Top Engine Cleaner p/n 12346535 and p/n 1050002 (in Canada, 992872).



Use of lower quality fuels may leave harmful engine deposits that can degrade driveability. Some fuels may not burn cleanly or do not contain sufficient doses of deposit control additives, and can leave behind harmful deposits which can retard engine performance.

Characteristics of GM Top Engine Cleaner (TEC) -- TEC does not mix with gasoline containing 10% or more ethanol. Higher concentrations lead to ineffective fuel injector cleaning as explained in bulletin 03-06-04-030A. TEC must be be mixed with gasoline to perform the injector cleaning. TEC isn't VOC compliant in all 50 states. In the event it finds its way into the fuel tank due to return lines being ineffectively plugged off, TEC can affect epoxy sealer and viton gaskets.

Characteristics of NEW GM Upper Engine and Fuel Injector Cleaner (UEC) -- UEC is specially formulated to provide superior cleaning properties, meet VOC compliance, mix with fuels containing up to 30% ethanol, and not affect fuel system gaskets and seals.

UEC delivers immediate engine deposit cleaning. It has multiple service applications, including in-rail fuel injector cleaning, fuel induction system deposit removal and piston top soaking clean-up.

Refer to the illustrations for a cleaning comparison.



Fig. 7 Before



Fig. 8 Cleaned with TEC



Fig. 9 Before



Fig. 10 Cleaned with UEC

One treatment of GM Upper Engine and Fuel Injector Cleaner can deliver deposit clean-up of carburetors, fuel injectors (when used as a through-the-rail cleaner), intake valves and ports, and combustion chambers. Refer to GM Technical Service Bulletins for specific service procedures.

IMPORTANT: Do not add GM Upper Engine and Fuel Injector Cleaner into the fuel tank.

A bottle of GM VehicleCare Fuel System Treatment Plus p/n 88861011 (in Canada, 88861012) should be added to the fuel tank according to label directions after all applications of GM Upper Engine and Fuel Injector Cleaner.

AJxtcman
06-27-07, 07:14 AM
My suggestion

Drain the oil first Not the filter.
Leave the drain plug out.
Blow off intake around the fuel injectors.
Remove the fuel injctors.
Add 2oz of the UEC to each cylinder through the injector holes.
16oz bottle 8 cylinders.
Mark the balancer just as a reference.
Turn the crank 720 by hand.
This will push the cleaner into the piston ring lands.
If you do this from the bottum you will see the cleaner run out the oil pan.
Let the chemical set for 1 & 1/2 hours.
Add 2oz of UEC to each cylinder for a second time.
Turn the engine over 720 again by hand.
If you need to work it back and forth to get it to go over.
You should be close to or hydo lock on each cylinder.
Let sit another hour.
Spin engine over by hand until free. 720?
Add 1 quart oil and let it drain out.
Install drain plug back into the oil pan.
Fill with oil.
Reinstall the fuel injectors.
Start the engine and let it idle until it reaches operating temp.
Drive the car in first and second gear keeping the RPM's above 3500 for 10 minutes.
Perform many WOT launches.
Change oil and filter.

Parts list
2 UEC
16 quarts of oil

fubar569
06-27-07, 08:33 AM
sounds spiffy....my guess is you need an injector cleaner machine thingie to use it as an injector cleaner...

if i dont have a machine and wanted to do an in-tank solution...what would you use AJ?

also...

in days past...most of us would use the seafoam through a vaccuum line to achieve what your procedure does...i would assume this does it much more thoroughly?

AJxtcman
06-27-07, 08:53 AM
sounds spiffy....my guess is you need an injector cleaner machine thingie to use it as an injector cleaner...

if i dont have a machine and wanted to do an in-tank solution...what would you use AJ?

also...

in days past...most of us would use the seafoam through a vaccuum line to achieve what your procedure does...i would assume this does it much more thoroughly?

The GM method at this time is to use the Tank and attach the manifold with the 4 clear tubes on it. The tubes have misting jets on the end of the hoses. You install one tube into each cylinder on one bank at a time. The jets get plugged up and when they are down inside the head you can not see this. You would not get very much cleaner in that cylinder. The tank is set at 15 PSI to push the solution into the ring lands.
.
I suggest pouring it into the cylinder through the injector holes. NO TANK NEEDED.
.
.
At this time the UEC is the only engine cleaning Chemical GM has that will not damage metal parts like rod bearings and cylinder walls if it sits on them.

fubar569
06-27-07, 09:53 AM
The GM method at this time is to use the Tank and attach the manifold with the 4 clear tubes on it. The tubes have misting jets on the end of the hoses. You install one tube into each cylinder on one bank at a time. The jets get plugged up and when they are down inside the head you can not see this. You would not get very much cleaner in that cylinder. The tank is set at 15 PSI to push the solution into the ring lands.
.
I suggest pouring it into the cylinder through the injector holes. NO TANK NEEDED.
.
.
At this time the UEC is the only engine cleaning Chemical GM has that will not damage metal parts like rod bearings and cylinder walls if it sits on them.

that part i get, but on the bottle it says "fuel injector cleaner" - then it also says not to put in the gas tank...

so to use as an injector cleaner i would need to pull my injectors and then use that solution in a machine to clean my injectors, correct?

if so...what would you recommend for a good fuel system treatment/injector clearer that i can mix in my tank and deliver through daily driving?

i also plan on doing a ring cleaning at some point...prolly when i do the transmission service that i want to do...

thanks for posting some really helpful stuffs on the forum...you are turning out to be a really valuable source of information :thumbsup:

AJxtcman
06-27-07, 11:24 AM
fubar569
It says Upper Engine Cleaner First
You can use it as a Fuel Injector Cleaner. It is the best product GM has currently. If you plan to use it as an Fuel Injector Cleaner you will need a tank.
This will not clean the rings.
The rings and ring lands need to soak for a few hours.

parts68
06-27-07, 04:29 PM
For those with experiance you can add another step....
steam clean the inside of engine with water.
Do this to a engine that warmed up to operating temp
and make sure to run it for 10 minutes after.

AJxtcman
06-27-07, 04:39 PM
For those with experiance you can add another step....
steam clean the inside of engine with water.
Do this to a engine that warmed up to operating temp
and make sure to run it for 10 minutes after.

This will not clean the rings

parts68
06-27-07, 08:46 PM
I did say "add" another step.
It will clean the carbon off just about everything
in the upper portion.
It works real good after the TEC has softened up all
the carbon and goo.

codewize
06-28-07, 07:45 AM
I hate to be this guy again but why does the butterfly in FIG 10 look like it was scraped to hell by a screw driver or something.

AJxtcman
06-28-07, 08:00 AM
You would have to ask GM's R&D department.

Ranger
06-28-07, 10:58 AM
I hate to be this guy again but why does the butterfly in FIG 10 look like it was scraped to hell by a screw driver or something.

Same question came to my mind.

codewize
06-28-07, 02:09 PM
Yeah I'm not talking about the cross thatching. I'm talking about the blatant vertical gouges in that thing. Someone scraped the crap out of that.

AJxtcman
06-28-07, 02:20 PM
Yeah I'm not talking about the cross thatching. I'm talking about the blatant vertical gouges in that thing. Someone scraped the crap out of that.

That Picture is from GM's R&D Department!
http://216.182.211.32/techlink/images/issues/nov06/TLnov06e.html
http://216.182.211.32/techlink/images/issues/nov06/TLnov06e.html#story14
And you probably can not open them.

AJxtcman
06-28-07, 06:27 PM
This is a piston from an 02 Eldo. #?
I found the second ring suck on #4 piston. It used oil.
This piston has a medium amount of carbon build up.
I put about 10 drops of the UEC on the top and then let it sat for 2 hours.
I then blew off the the piston with some brake cleaner, but I did not break up any more with the brake cleaner. I kept the brake cleaner at a distance.
The part that was left on the piston was very soft and loose. It scrapped off easy.
It I had this in an engine I would have had more solution (2oz) and I would have been able to start the car and raised combustion chamber pressures to break up the remaining carbon.

codewize
06-29-07, 11:07 PM
Well I'll be dipped. Huh, someone should ask them.

aamusls06
07-05-07, 03:42 PM
I'm needing this done because I am beginning to blow back oil. How much does this procedure usually cost?

fubar569
07-05-07, 05:10 PM
I'm needing this done because I am beginning to blow back oil. How much does this procedure usually cost?

whatever your dealer charges for the cleaning solution, plus 2 oil changes, and about an afternoon of your own time...

do not pay to have someone do it...a shop at 50+ bucks an hour will make a killing off you...

AJxtcman
07-05-07, 06:13 PM
whatever your dealer charges for the cleaning solution, plus 2 oil changes, and about an afternoon of your own time...

do not pay to have someone do it...a shop at 50+ bucks an hour will make a killing off you...

We Be Up In The Sticks But Wees Stil Gets $100 an hour.
It Would Be Hard For Me To Think What A Big City Dealer Gets. Well Hmmm

eldorado1
07-06-07, 10:52 PM
We Be Up In The Sticks But Wees Stil Gets $100 an hour.
It Would Be Hard For Me To Think What A Big City Dealer Gets. Well Hmmm

highway robbery much?

damn, I need a new job.

AJxtcman
07-07-07, 12:38 PM
New example:
I have had heartburn since before I started school. That is as far back as I can remember, but my mom says about 3 years old. I have had a lot of stomach discomfort also. I have been to may specialists and spent tens of thousands of out of pocket dollars. I am no better.
The human body has not changed in the last ten thousand years.
Why would you pay a doctor over $20 dollars an hour. Nothing changes in the human body. He can pay his help and all his loan and all his Equipment out of that $20.
Good GM technicians need 40 hours of additional training each year to keep up to the standards set on average. This year they added 40 hours at the beginning and now they have added more because of the Hybrids.
We have to keep are training up to date and our tools.
.
I have been working at a business since 1986. I have no idea of how many hours of training. I attended a Technical Training Program for 2 years. As of today I have taken 330 GM courses since 1999 that will range from 1/2 hour to 16 hours. Most of the courses are about 4 hours long. I work at Chrysler dealer from 1993 to 1998 and had many hours of Mopar training. I have many certificates from Snap On, Mac tools, and many other training courses. I was hired in 1995 to train for Snap On, but relocated a short time after.
.
At least with attorney the laws change.
.
Dealership have a lot of expenses and it is a Franchise, so you must do what the parent company say just like MC Donald's do. GM charges the dealer for all the training. .
.
In the end I want to make a Good living

Ranger
07-07-07, 04:12 PM
highway robbery much?

damn, I need a new job.

Keep in mind, that $100/hr does not all go to the mechanic.

MonzaRacer
07-07-07, 09:36 PM
No doubt and figure out the benifits that have to be added on , the fact that an independant shop costs between $1500 and $1800 each day to open up and they dont HAVE to buy every new tool the OE says are needed.
worked for a dealr and they live and die from Customer Satisfaction Index too,,,, so if the CSI report gets back then theshop gets a major rearangment, so they getpretty strict on training.
Got a friend whos grandfatherstarted a Chevy dealership and hm and his brother are now running the dealership now and they tell me its around $750k to a $1m in training and tools. and thats in southern Indiana

jimfulco
08-28-07, 04:00 AM
A good in-tank injector cleaner is made by Berryman. Look for a white plastic jug that says Berryman's Injector Cleaner on the label. AutoZone and O'Reilly's carry it around here.

It can eat paint, so be careful when you put it in. And don't breathe it too much, it may eat brain cells.

http://www.berrymanproducts.com/Portals/0/BPI%20IMAGES/1112-LR.jpg

etmerritt33
12-05-10, 11:54 AM
AJxtcman,

Being able to PM or put an email address link to this board is like pledging for a frat in college. I can't PM or put my email link here for you to contact me. I have a problem with a V-8 with stuck rings that I would like to get some insight from you on. Your technique makes excellent sense to me. Can you please try to PM me so I can provide the details of the problem.

Thanks,

Tom Merritt
Richmond, Virginia

codewize
12-05-10, 12:15 PM
AJ, while we have your attention, you never made me a new button.

Ranger
12-05-10, 12:18 PM
AJ doesn't seem to be here too much lately. Did you see the procedure sticky on it?

mhamilton
12-06-10, 04:02 PM
That's an interesting way to do the cleaning. So if you do it through the injector holes, the cleaner will sit on the intake valves until you rotate the engine to open them?

Also, in the GM procedure they have it vacuumed out of the cylinders through the spark plug holes. How does it get out? Just by seeping past the rings?

RippyPartsDept
12-06-10, 04:32 PM
And what do you think about sucking it through the brake booster hose (like a seafoaming) with some ATF??

Submariner409
12-07-10, 04:03 PM
And what do you think about sucking it through the brake booster hose (like a seafoaming) with some ATF??

ATF is an oil - burn it in excess and it forms gum and carbon.........

and the trouble with sucking anything through the brake booster hose on these long intake runner engines is that most of the cleaner or snake oil sits in the main manifold log and doesn't get where it's supposed to go in any consistent quantity.

I believe the GM technique says to directly inject the cleaner through the spark plug hole, not the injector boss, and you're working with liquid cleaner, designed to seep down to the compression ring over a couple of hours - "cleaning" a running engine does exactly nothing more than make smoke - or do you want to pour liquids into the combustion chamber of a running engine ? Hmmmmmmmmm.................?

RippyPartsDept
12-07-10, 04:58 PM
Yeah the main diff between the GM technique and AJ's is that he's going thru the injector and getting on top of the valves before getting into the cylinder (from what I gather)

but then again I'm no mechanic so...


ATF is an oil - burn it in excess and it forms gum and carbon
but what if it's not in excess? .. like just a little bit?
i've been told that atf has cleaning powers
it's hard for me to believe so i figured i'd ask here

97EldoCoupe
12-07-10, 06:17 PM
The best way to clean piston rings - remove them. Not easy considering where in the engine they're located-

I've never really considered this before, but what if one were to fill the cylinders with the cleaning solution, block off the PCV holes on the cam covers, and draw a vacuum in the crankcase through the oil drain hole in the pan? This may damage seals and this idea would need a lot more thought I'm sure, but if you could suck the cleaner past the piston rings via a crankcase vacuum, and then let it soak and sit, I'm sure it would be more effective.

Just a dumb idea I thought I'd toss in....

The best cleaner I've seen is coolant /oil mixed in the crankcase - bad for bearings, but it sure cleans the engine nicely inside......

Submariner409
12-07-10, 06:34 PM
Hey, Jake - go back to the beginning of this thread and check my Metric Math.

2 oz. of ring cleaner is about 60cc, correct ?? How large is the combustion chamber volume in a Northstar..........about 49cc ??? With the plugs installed, how far can you turn a Northstar V-8 engine with every cylinder waiting to be overfilled, with an incompressible liquid, by 10cc ???

Ranger
12-07-10, 08:58 PM
i've been told that atf has cleaning powers
It does. It's basically a very high detergent oil. I used to put a quart in the crankcase many, many years ago at every oil change. I'm sure Sub remembers this.

I think this is being over thought. Pull the plugs, fill the cylinders, let it set for the prescribed amount of time and suck it out.

RippyPartsDept
12-07-10, 10:04 PM
ok... i've been told you can put it in the oil, or in the gas too... then someone mentioned that technique i posted about above (post #30) ... which made me think i needed to consult y'all

97EldoCoupe
12-07-10, 10:12 PM
Bore = 93mm
Stroke = 84mm

radius (46.5mm)x radius x pie (3.1412) x stroke (84mm) x .001 = 570.533 cc's per cylinder

divided by: 10.3:1 C.R. (estimated)

55.391 cc combustion chamber, including head gasket, not accounting for the piston travel above deck height, also not counting valve reliefs.

I have my combustion chamber measuring stuff back in Ontario. I can't CC a head right now (need something accurate, a sheet of plexiglass, etc.) but according to the cylinder volume and the factory spec'd C.R., 55.391cc is the volume of the entire chamber when the piston is at TDC.

Roughly speaking Jim, you're correct, 60cc's of cleaning solution could ensure that engine will never be used again. A starter alone will bend a connecting rod or crack a cylinder trying to compress liquid -

RippyPartsDept
12-07-10, 10:16 PM
so... is there something amiss w/ AJ's directions? a typo? or something else we're missing?

Ranger
12-07-10, 10:18 PM
ok... i've been told you can put it in the oil, or in the gas too... then someone mentioned that technique i posted about above (post #30) ... which made me think i needed to consult y'all

I'd be a little leery of putting oil in the gas. Gas has enough cleaning additives in it already. I'd also be VERY leery about trying to suck something that viscous through the brake booster vacuum hose as Sub mentioned. That seems like a recipe for disaster to me.

RippyPartsDept
12-07-10, 11:03 PM
i figured you guys would say that... thx for keeping me grounded

Submariner409
12-08-10, 09:08 AM
2002 Northstar, 10.0:1 compression, new roller cam heads - chamber volume is 49.6cc. (GM manual). Throw in a few cc for deck height and valve reliefs and there's no way that 60cc of anything, gasoline included, would not hydrolock and destroy a Northstar engine.

Oil in the gas.........Bardahl used to market cutesy little green and black 4 oz. cans of top cylinder oil. Anyone in here who is over 40 who says he has never burned Marvel Mystery Oil is a liar. Wynn's Friction Proofing (products) used to market top cylinder oil. Various types of ATF were black magic - people used to run it in gas, engine oil, and even in diesel fuel. (Mercedes actually condoned its use in their diesels when the low-sulphur [low lubricant] diesel fuels became common.) Judson made a sliding vane supercharger for the MG 1250cc engines in the TD and TF - you needed to run a Marvel Inverse Oiler to keep the blower lubricated - the oiler dripped oil into the intake at a rate determined by blower outlet pressure. You lived with smoke and carbon - head cleaning every 6 months. Nowadays there are any number of companies that play on the desire to "make it better" - they all market top cylinder oils and potions with magic powers and mystical claims. What the hell - it's only your money. (There's a gallon of MMO sitting on the garage shelf as I type - old habits die hard.)

97EldoCoupe
12-08-10, 11:32 AM
I'm sure AJ is rotating the engine by hand, with the plugs out. With the plugs in, you'll feel the dead stop of hydro lock, but certainly not with the starter.

A GM dealership near Windsor, ON (I won't name names) made a huge mistake on a 97 Aurora. They changed the fuel rail and hydro locked a cylinder with raw gasoline. The owner came to me to have a replacement engine installed. A customer of mine, a satellite tv installer, had leaking injectors in his 01 Deville. One had leaked / filled the cylinder after he shut off the car. Next time he went to start it, bent the connecting rod on I believe cylinder #3. That engine blew apart from being out of balance.

Hydro locking is a VERY scary thing - one mistake - water, coolant, gasoline, oil, can demolish a $5,000 engine in less than a second. This is why I stress heavily that if you have a misfire, get it diagnosed immediately. One faulty injector can do it all-

Ranger
12-08-10, 12:00 PM
Like this. In fact, this one was done at a dealer when the tech doing a ring cleaning job. If I remember correctly, liquid was pooled in the manifold and sat there until the RPM's got high enough during the test drive to slug a cylinder. OUCH!

97EldoCoupe
12-08-10, 01:23 PM
Yeah that doesn't look too healthy. Aluminum is great, cast iron is stronger, but nothing will take that kind of a beating -

AJxtcman
12-09-10, 04:33 PM
And what do you think about sucking it through the brake booster hose (like a seafoaming) with some ATF??
NEVER
If you see the car smoking it's not cleaning the carbon

check out Terraclean
http://www.terraclean.net/

I will sand behind a car running on Terraclean

AJxtcman
12-09-10, 04:40 PM
Like this. In fact, this one was done at a dealer when the tech doing a ring cleaning job. If I remember correctly, liquid was pooled in the manifold and sat there until the RPM's got high enough during the test drive to slug a cylinder. OUCH!

In my proceedure I stated how many oz to put in each hole and then turn it over by hand to force the cleaner down to the rings.

GM has now picked up on my proceedure. Well kind of. I have you pull the intake and add the cleaner to the intake ports. Then turn the engine by hand. Then let it sit for 3 hours.


Verify the oil consumption concern following Corporate Bulletin Number 01-06-01-011F. If oil consumption is found, continue on with this bulletin.
Remove the spark plugs and ensure that none of the pistons are at top dead center (TDC).
Clean the pistons by putting 118-147 ml (4-5 oz) of Upper Engine and Fuel Injector Cleaner, GM P/N 88861802 (in Canada, use 88861804), in each cylinder. Allow the material to soak for at least 2.5-3.0 hours, but no more than three hours and then remove the cleaner. A suggested method of removing the cleaner is cranking engine over. Make sure to unplug the ignition coils and fuel injector before cranking the engine over. Also make sure that the painted surfaces are covered so no damage is done.
Reinstall the spark plugs. Replace the spark plugs if necessary due to full of carbon. Refer to the parts catalog.
Change the oil
Re-evaluate the oil consumption. Document on the repair order. If the oil consumption is still greater than 0.946 L (1 qt) in 3,200 km (2000 mi), replacement of the pistons and rings will be required.

mhamilton
12-10-10, 10:31 AM
6. Re-evaluate the oil consumption. Document on the repair order. If the oil consumption is still greater than 0.946 L (1 qt) in 3,200 km (2000 mi), replacement of the pistons and rings will be required.

I wish I got 2k miles to the quart... I'm probably closer to 500 miles/quart. Definitely going to have to try this top engine cleaner.

So GM no longer recommends vacuuming out the used solvent? If I'm going to crank the engine to eject the cleaner, is it best to leave the crankcase full of old oil instead of draining it first?

Ranger
12-10-10, 11:59 AM
Personally, I'd vacuum out the cylinders before cranking it. I wouldn't change the oil until everything is out of the cylinders.

mhamilton
12-11-10, 09:56 PM
So has anyone done the top end cleaning and seen real results? Or is this just a GM procedure that *might* work, before "replacing pistons and rings"? I'm not sure if I want to do all that just to waste 4 gallons of oil if I'm not going see a real improvement.

For me there's also the question of whether my engine had this bad consumption from the beginning, as the original TSB says if it's a 2000-03 N* that eats oil before 25k miles to just go right to the ring replacement.

Another question on the procedure, in the first TSB it says to get the engine up to operating temp before starting. Is that still recommended? I thought it was never good to install or remove plugs in an aluminum head when it's hot.

Ranger
12-11-10, 10:07 PM
I'm not sure if I want to do all that just to waste 4 gallons of oil if I'm not going see a real improvement.
The only advice I can give you is 4 gallons of oil is a lot cheaper than a ring job. It's worth a try.

AJxtcman
01-24-11, 04:59 PM
Per the phone conversation