: Some performance inquiries about the Sage Sled



Jonas McFeely
06-25-07, 07:56 PM
As some of you already know,and some of you now know, me and Night Wolf are going to be having a drag race at the Tampa meet on the 21st of July (it WILL be videotaped and posted).

HT4100 VS. 307

I have the adavantage of having a lighter car 3898 vs. 4190.

Have only 75k miles vs. 200k miles+

3.42 vs. 2.56 rear end.

Has a chrome Holey air cleaner (lol)

I have 135hp and 200lb ft of torque stock. He has 140hp,not sure on torque #'s.


Sound like an even race?

Well i need a little more than that,so here is where the vast knowledge of my fellow CF members comes in:

I just had a fresh tune up,new plugs and wires, new o2 sensor,coolant sensor,new rear shocks.Also has a new Interstate battery,and i converted it to top-terminal instead of bullshit side-terminal. Its running absolutely perfect. Though i still think i have a problem with the TCC solenoid,as it is weird about downshifting and upshifting,especially with the A/C on. It shifts great under normal throttle and braking,but when coming to an abrupt stop,it jerks and lurches alot before it downshifts. And when trying to pull out in traffic with the A/C on,it hesitates ALOT before it downshifts and goes.

What are your thoughts on this?

I am going to replace my air filter,change my oil and get a transmission flush before i go to the meet. But i was also thinking about removing my catalyst and just welding in a pipe. There are no emissions/inspections here and my friends dads shop could do it.

A) Would this give me any more power at all?
B) Would this mess with the computer at all?
C) Will this hurt it?
D) Will it be any louder?

Also, is there ANY mods i can do to the HT4100 at all that will help it perform better. Messing with anything under the hood?In all seriousness.


Thanks for your help guys!

jayoldschool
06-25-07, 08:49 PM
I will bet the 307 will kill you. Hope you don't hear any 4100 main bearing noises! I have, and they aren't nice. There is a GM reman 4100 in my mother's 84 FWB, and it went in at 55 000 miles...:tisk:

Destroyer
06-25-07, 08:53 PM
Great match up, and safe too!. Cop sees it and he wont even think its a race as both these cars at full bore are like a regular car just coming up to speed.

In all seriousness, gearing should make this an interesting race. Rick is running 255 ft/lb torque compared to your 200 ft/lb. I say run stock vs. stock and let the faster car win. If Rick wins, you can re-negotiate the second run, this time you can ask for lengths.........hehe I watch to much PINKS!. There's always NOS. :bacon2:

Jonas McFeely
06-25-07, 09:13 PM
I will bet the 307 will kill you. Hope you don't hear any 4100 main bearing noises! I have, and they aren't nice. There is a GM reman 4100 in my mother's 84 FWB, and it went in at 55 000 miles...:tisk:


My car is almost 300 lbs lighter, has over One Hundred and Twenty Five THOUSAND less miles on it, has the better rear end,and hasnt been abused. Only has 5 less horsepower. How do you figure its going to "kill" me?

I have owned a beat up '88 Brougham, it was very similar to my HT4100,but had noticeably more "oomph" off the line.

Jonas McFeely
06-25-07, 09:19 PM
Great match up, and safe too!. Cop sees it and he wont even think its a race as both these cars at full bore are like a regular car just coming up to speed.

In all seriousness, gearing should make this an interesting race. Rick is running 255 ft/lb torque compared to your 200 ft/lb. I say run stock vs. stock and let the faster car win. If Rick wins, you can re-negotiate the second run, this time you can ask for lengths.........hehe I watch to much PINKS!. There's always NOS. :bacon2:


Lengths? Heh,no way. Car VS. Car. He can do whatever he wants to his too.

DopeStar 156
06-25-07, 09:21 PM
My 307 is the 180 hp HO version. I know mine would do it......

96Fleetwood
06-25-07, 09:35 PM
It all depends on the condition of the transmission on both cars. If it is old and tired, that one race can do it in.

I have my money on the 307 :thumbsup: My wagon surprises me off the line.... NOT! But it does have 55 more ft/lbs of torque than the 4100, so that should do it.

77CDV
06-25-07, 09:47 PM
Jonas,

For the first 100 yards or so, Rick's greater torque will simply kill your poor 4100. After that, it depends on you two and how you each drive. Converting to a straight pipe exhaust will lessen back pressure and kick up your HP a couple points, but nothing outrageous. So, as long as you're going more than a couple hundred yards, either one of you could win. Race safe, please.

Craig

Cadillac_Fan
06-25-07, 10:03 PM
Don't swap paint!

I~LUV~Caddys8792
06-26-07, 12:09 AM
This is gonna be some serious ****ing race action!

It's the 19 second club... haha! Like Destroyer said, no cop is gonna give out a ticket to either of you because your cars at WOT are like any modern car at 1/2 throttle.

But if his 307 is anything like that '90 D'Elegance I drove a while back (carb was in bad need of tune...sticky choke) an HT4100 in good tune would beat it. Between that '90 D'Elegance (131k miles) and an '84 Sedan deVille I drove (115k miles) the HT4100 was quicker with better throttle responce.

Wheelman322
06-26-07, 12:30 AM
Hope you don't hear any 4100 main bearing noises! I have, and they aren't nice. There is a GM reman 4100 in my mother's 84 FWB, and it went in at 55 000 miles...:tisk:

I agree. You should avoid racing the 4100 from a standstill. These old Caddies need to be pampered to survive. My 78 is completely rebuilt (every nut and bolt literally) and I would never even think of drag racing it. I drive it real f*#king fast( Post 100 at times), but I get there gradually.

Night Wolf
06-26-07, 07:34 AM
Sheesh, this is really getting turned into a big thing isn't it?

Heh...

transmission... my tranny was rebuilt about 4 or 5 years ago... she shifts hard and firm... its nice... I need to fix the speedo though as the torque converter never locks up (speed sensor on instrument cluster never gets signal)

New carb as of a few years ago

I have a kinda loud exhaust leak... cat needs to be replaced.

check engine light is on, as it has been since new.

My Brougham weighs 3900lbs or so, it said on the NYS title before I got the Georgia title... my '79 was 4,212 lbs and the Brougham is actually a good bit less weight. It does have a big old class 3? tow hitch on it.... help even out the weight balance issues, heh.

Anyway, I defintily want to race from a stop, as well as a roll.

I gotta do a tune up on the 307, she runs alright, but I know she needs a tune up.

Night Wolf
06-26-07, 07:35 AM
I agree. You should avoid racing the 4100 from a standstill. These old Caddies need to be pampered to survive. My 78 is completely rebuilt (every nut and bolt literally) and I would never even think of drag racing it. I drive it real f*#king fast( Post 100 at times), but I get there gradually.

I took my '79 to the drag strip... had around 88k miles at the time, mostly all stock... she ran a 17.5 @85mph

Jonas McFeely
06-26-07, 07:38 AM
Jonas,

For the first 100 yards or so, Rick's greater torque will simply kill your poor 4100. After that, it depends on you two and how you each drive. Converting to a straight pipe exhaust will lessen back pressure and kick up your HP a couple points, but nothing outrageous. So, as long as you're going more than a couple hundred yards, either one of you could win. Race safe, please.

Craig

Thank you for being semi-serious about this. I know racing an HT4100 is laughable. Do you know if it will mess with the censors or computer at all?

And to those showing concern about my poor motor, i appreciate it, but i doubt im going to blow it. I am rough with my car at times. I often get on it HARD,not to the point of "abuse", but i dont treat it like an HT4100 should be treated. It has NEVER given me any problems at all,never hinted at overheating,never had any weird noises, has just purred like a kitten for the last 30k miles ive driven it. Oil changed every 3k-4k. One or two drag races isnt going to blow it up. Or maybe it will,just an excuse to get a second car and park the Brougham so i can start to restore it.


In all seriousness though, please refer to the first post in the thread and reply with any helpful info. Thanks again guys.

pimpin88
06-26-07, 08:18 AM
My 307 is the 180 hp HO version. I know mine would do it......

Hey Dope, wanna drive down here and drag race me before I get rid of the car? :stirpot:

180 hp 88 brougham vs. 180 hp 89 brougham.

My autumn maple firemist paint will make mine faster though because it is faded and some of it has come off. You still have all that heavy a$$ paint on there. :thumbsup:

Night Wolf
06-26-07, 08:34 AM
If the 307 would beat the HT4100 off the line... I honestly don't think the HT4100 has enough HP in the mid-upper rev band to then start pulling on the 307.

If anything, I thought the HT4100 may have the jump due to gearing... but I guess the decent low RPM torque of the Olds engine may get it off the line pretty well.

Destroyer
06-26-07, 08:45 AM
I know racing an HT4100 is laughable.
Not at all. Racing 2 well matched slow cars is just as much fun IMO as racing in 2 fast cars. The race element is still there, the desire to achieve your goal is still there and you will still have a good adrenalin rush if its real close. When I had my '99 GMC Conversion van I raced my buddies work van (not sure what year but it had a 5.4 liter Triton motor and was a Ford). I beat him and I had fun doing it. :thumbsup:

90Brougham350
06-26-07, 09:46 AM
3.42 x 200 = 684.
2.56 x 255 = 652.8.

Even if the shape of the torque curves of both engines was roughly the same, the Brougham would still win. There just isn't enough from the 4100 throughout the powerband to win. And since the Fleetwood only has 5 less horses but 55 less foot pounds, we know that the 4100 hits peak torque at a higher RPM than the 307 does. The 307 has this race.

Brian

ShadowLvr400
06-26-07, 10:06 AM
I've seen the 4100 in a mid 80's Eldorado lose to a 1997 Dodge Ram 3500... Diesel. Oh yea, and the truck had a bed full of furniture at the time. I'm going to lean towards the 307 just a bit, though the 2.56 pegleg is going to make it harder to launch.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
06-26-07, 12:28 PM
You guys might wanna go find some ricers running around in their umodified automatic mid '90s Civics and have them race you too, just to add to the excitement and thrill! Detroit iron v. jap crap!

77CDV
06-26-07, 01:20 PM
Thank you for being semi-serious about this. I know racing an HT4100 is laughable. Do you know if it will mess with the censors or computer at all?

And to those showing concern about my poor motor, i appreciate it, but i doubt im going to blow it. I am rough with my car at times. I often get on it HARD,not to the point of "abuse", but i dont treat it like an HT4100 should be treated. It has NEVER given me any problems at all,never hinted at overheating,never had any weird noises, has just purred like a kitten for the last 30k miles ive driven it. Oil changed every 3k-4k. One or two drag races isnt going to blow it up. Or maybe it will,just an excuse to get a second car and park the Brougham so i can start to restore it.


In all seriousness though, please refer to the first post in the thread and reply with any helpful info. Thanks again guys.
As you both keep your cars up mechanically, I don't forsee any catastrophic meltdowns. I do feel that this will come down to driving skills in the end.

Night Wolf
06-26-07, 06:38 PM
..... they are both automatic, low powered land barges..... in a stright line race. The closest thing that driving skills would come into play would maybe be power braking?

Jonas McFeely
06-26-07, 07:30 PM
Talked to my Dad, his advice was to take out my stereo system to save weight and if i have time,my A/C belt. Said i could advance my timing,but that may cause it to detonate and that is not worth it in a HT4100.

After i change the oil, put a new air filter in it and do the trans flush, im gonna take it out to Speedworld in Bithlo and do some passes to she what she'll do and practice my power-braking and launch techniques.

Thanks for the info and ridecule, i like it:ride:


Also,no one has given me straight answer on whether or not removing the cat will mess up any other sensors or cause the computer to do weird things.

Cadillac Giovanni
06-26-07, 07:58 PM
Horsepower sells cars, but torque wins races. I heard that once.

Not saying it's going to mean anything, but he's got you beat in both. It is an even race, but a properly tuned 307 is nothing to scoff at, and mileage means nothing. 307s are near bulletproof. I'd go easy on that 4100. I'd be more worried about you cracking a head than losing the race. Your lighter weight will be a plus. Make sure you empty any unnecessary stuff from your trunk.

That problem with the TCC solenoid may work against you. In my car, the issue was only present after the transmission had warmed up, so try and let the car sit and cool before you race them. If the TCC kicks in at the wrong speed, It'll sap your acceleration worse than anything. My 307 is not nearly the slug off the line that it was described to me as, especially since replacing that solenoid, and I never put it to the floor.

Still sounds fun, and good luck! I'm pulling for you, even though I'm a 307 guy.

Jonas McFeely
06-26-07, 08:19 PM
Awesome,thanks. Finally have someone on my side...

Not worrying about the engine or trans. Not an issue with me. If i blow either one it will just put me of a faster track to getting a second car and putting an LT1 in my Brougham. If it does blow,i already have a place i can store it and a car i can drive until i can finance a '95 or '96 Maxima.

I appreciate your concern though...

Cadillac Giovanni
06-26-07, 08:40 PM
Now you are a man with a plan, my friend. I always think that as well. If my engine ever goes, it's just the perfect excuse to put a better one in. I haven't settled on it myself, but I may just go up to a nicely tuned Chevy 350. That'll have more than enough horses for me.

My grandpa's Fleetwood was a 4100. I was only a kid, but i remember my father hated that engine with a passion. He seems to recall it as being a pluckier motor than my 307, possibly because it was a lighter vehicle.

If I were you, I'd try and fix that solenoid though. It would suck to lose the race because of a poor shift. Most GM trannies are the same, it was real easy to replace on mine, if the solenoid is indeed the problem.

I dunno, what do you think? Do you feel the power when you put it to the floor? There IS power there...there's just more car than it can move....

Jonas McFeely
06-26-07, 08:57 PM
Now you are a man with a plan, my friend. I always think that as well. If my engine ever goes, it's just the perfect excuse to put a better one in. I haven't settled on it myself, but I may just go up to a nicely tuned Chevy 350. That'll have more than enough horses for me.

My grandpa's Fleetwood was a 4100. I was only a kid, but i remember my father hated that engine with a passion. He seems to recall it as being a pluckier motor than my 307, possibly because it was a lighter vehicle.

If I were you, I'd try and fix that solenoid though. It would suck to lose the race because of a poor shift. Most GM trannies are the same, it was real easy to replace on mine, if the solenoid is indeed the problem.

I dunno, what do you think? Do you feel the power when you put it to the floor? There IS power there...there's just more car than it can move....

It can go pretty well from a standstill.After i got my tuneup and new o2 sensor it really made the car come alive. I remember my '88 Brougham clunker with the 5.0. They seem almost equal from what i can remember. The HT4100 is more responsive and "feels" quicker than it is at times.

When i get the trans flush i will ask them to look and see what else is "wrong" with it. I have a good shop that is VERY fair. They saved me $1700 over another shops BS diagnosis.

Destroyer
06-26-07, 09:08 PM
Are we taking bets yet guys?. I say the gears are the equalizer here. It'll be fun to watch regardless. Make sure you guys are wearing your helmets, racing harnesses and fire suites. :highfive:

90Brougham350
06-26-07, 09:24 PM
I put the odds at 2 to 1 on the 307.

Brian

Cadillac Giovanni
06-26-07, 09:37 PM
Speaking of the tranny flush, were you around for the big "Tranny Flush Debate"? Supposedly it's really bad for your tranny or something like that. The messages are still on the board somewhere, I only glanced at them, so I don't know what the final verdict was. You might wanna check.

Jonas McFeely
06-26-07, 09:44 PM
Speaking of the tranny flush, were you around for the big "Tranny Flush Debate"? Supposedly it's really bad for your tranny or something like that. The messages are still on the board somewhere, I only glanced at them, so I don't know what the final verdict was. You might wanna check.

In no way is 22 year old transmission fluid good for my car. I call total bullshit. You can shove whatever nonsense at me about "why its bad" to flush a transmission,and i'll still say youre full of shit, so please no one try.(this is not directed at you Giovanni) I know many people who have had it done,and some said it was like driving a new car, a WORLD of difference.

77CDV
06-26-07, 10:36 PM
I don't think removing the cat will cause anything to go boom on the car, although the emissions systems computer may throw a code or two. That shouldn't affect performance of the car, though. Good luck to both you and Rick, may the better driver prevail.

Cadillac Giovanni
06-26-07, 10:50 PM
Yeah, 22 year old fluid is probably no good, but in terms of having had regular services, most of that should have been swapped out. There's a way to change it completely without a flush, something involving the cooler tubes, but I digress. A flush sounds like it would be good, but I'm no expert, so I say nothing.

I changed the fluid on my car a while back. It smelled like crap. I don't know when or IF the previous owner ever did it.

If your computer starts throwing codes at you because you remove the cat, just cross wire the leads going to the oxygen sensor running to the cat, that should do it.

GO HT4100!!

GO 4100!

Night Wolf
06-27-07, 06:07 AM
lol, man this is getting turned into a really big thing now.

And here I thought it was just going to be a casual at the stop light "hey wanna go on the green?" thing.

lol, gonna strip out the car too? spare tire, jack and all?

I'm gonna keep the spare, and the jack. I'll be traveling 400 miles, I may need it (again)

Heck I was even planning on having Aimee in the car too.

I agree, mileage dosn't mean much on the 307, and they age well. That engine dosn't run, or feel like it has anywhere near 200k miles on it.... in fact, for being the 140hp version, it is quite peppy, I actually had to go out and double check the VIN.... since tuning it up a bit, it isn't as slow as I remember... and I still gotta do a tune up on it.

jayoldschool
06-27-07, 08:08 AM
If your computer starts throwing codes at you because you remove the cat, just cross wire the leads going to the oxygen sensor running to the cat, that should do it.



Ummm, no. Don't do that. The O2 has nothing to do with the cat. It measures the contents of the exhaust gas before the cat, and tells the computer how rich/lean the mixture is.


I agree, mileage dosn't mean much on the 307, and they age well. That engine dosn't run, or feel like it has anywhere near 200k miles on it....

I'll disagree, from personal experience (and from many reports from other 307 owners). As the 307 ages, bearing clearances open more than other comparable V8s (305/350). This causes lower oil pressure. A bad thing in cars that don't have gauges showing pressure, only a trouble light. I would be willing to bet that your 307 with that mileage has very low pressure at idle in gear. If you can't get a gauge on it, I would recommend and immediate switch to 15W40. This will go a long way to keeping that engine protected.

Jason.

Night Wolf
06-27-07, 08:58 AM
I personally have never heard about that with the 307.

I know from the factory, Oldsmobile ran much tighter tolerances then Chevy, which was one of the reasons Olds engines were usually more powerful then Chevy engines of similar displacement.

My parents ran 10W-40 in it IIRC, the cheap stuff from Advance Auto usually, which is actually Havoline. I have since switched it over to Mobil Delvac 15W-40 because I am very fond in that oil.

I don't have an oil pressure gauge, but I would be willing to bet that with my high mileage 307, there is nothing wrong with the oil pressure, even in ran on 10W-30. The oil pressure light has never come on once (in the last 10 years) other then when starting the car and a second after a fresh filter is put on. This car has had over heating issues in the past, and has probably been overheated half a dozen times... I'm pretty sure thats all solved now though as it hasn't happened in a few years.... but never any oil pressure issues.

Rich, with his '87 Brougham put a really expensive (all electrical) triple gauge cluster in his car because he would often tow a utility trailer loaded with stuff (monitor engine temp) Even with the origanal engine in that car, which died at 195k (we think it was the distrubutor gear) the oil pressure wasn't abnormally low or anything. That car then had a reman engine put in and now is retired with 230k miles, and oil pressure is very good, though it is a new engine.

jayoldschool
06-27-07, 09:36 AM
.

My parents ran 10W-40 in it IIRC, the cheap stuff from Advance Auto usually, which is actually Havoline. I have since switched it over to Mobil Delvac 15W-40 because I am very fond in that oil.



Good choices. Both are likely contributing to the longevity of that engine!:thumbsup:

90Brougham350
06-27-07, 09:36 AM
In no way is 22 year old transmission fluid good for my car. I call total bullshit. You can shove whatever nonsense at me about "why its bad" to flush a transmission,and i'll still say youre full of shit, so please no one try.(this is not directed at you Giovanni) I know many people who have had it done,and some said it was like driving a new car, a WORLD of difference.

There's a significant difference between flushing the transmission fluid and changing the fluid. To me, flush means taking it to Jiffy Lube and hooking it up to the machine and forcing fluid through the transmission. Changing means the two bucket method. I'm not sure which one you're thinking of, but in no way can anyone honestly defend using the machine to flush.


I don't think removing the cat will cause anything to go boom on the car, although the emissions systems computer may throw a code or two. That shouldn't affect performance of the car, though. Good luck to both you and Rick, may the better driver prevail.

Only OBD2 cars have an oxygen sensor after the cat. Removing the cat will do nothing to the engine.

Brian

Night Wolf
06-27-07, 10:45 AM
There's a significant difference between flushing the transmission fluid and changing the fluid. To me, flush means taking it to Jiffy Lube and hooking it up to the machine and forcing fluid through the transmission. Changing means the two bucket method. I'm not sure which one you're thinking of, but in no way can anyone honestly defend using the machine to flush.



Only OBD2 cars have an oxygen sensor after the cat. Removing the cat will do nothing to the engine.

Brian

Same here on the flush.

Actually, personally, when I change my trans fluid and filter, I simply drop the pan, when *I* flush the trans, I remove the pressure line to the trans cooler, put it in a bucket, start the enigne in park and pour new ATF thru the dipstick tube as the old is pumped out, until clean ATF starts coming out.

I NEVER, EVER would think about taking my cars to a shop and having them hook it up to the machine.... I hear people saying that their trans failed soon after a flush quite often... in fact... someone on the Isuzu site just had their trans go south after a lube place did a flush.

Ford was kind though, and they equiped the torque converter with a drain plug... you can really get alot of fluid out just by draining the pan and torque converter.

Jonas McFeely
06-27-07, 05:31 PM
I'm not sure which one you're thinking of


start the enigne in park and pour new ATF thru the dipstick tube as the old is pumped out, until clean ATF starts coming out.


Thats the one^^^

Night Wolf
06-27-07, 06:18 PM
That is the good, non-damaging way of doing a flush on an automatic transmission.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
06-27-07, 09:14 PM
And the one where they run it up to the machine? They say it damages the tranny because it's forcing that fluid thru there at such a high pressure where it'll damage the valvebody in the tranny?

Night Wolf
06-28-07, 07:04 AM
Among other things, yes.