: Need Help Guys 00 Northstar Coil Problem



Eldobroken
06-11-07, 08:56 AM
Hi I have posted this before this is going on 2 months now and driving me crazy so any help would be greatly appriciated. Man I wish Bob was still around beacuse I am at my wits end with this car.
Long stort short my eldo stalls when hot and will not start until I take off coil modules and stretch ground springs out again. They are getting so hot they are loosing spring and turning black and melting the plastic round them.
It will go for a few days with low throttle but a few heavy exceleration runs and it stalls for good.
Ok what I have done, Including grounding everything to complete overkill and also new battery cables. #2 extra grounds going to block tranny and both heads all seperate. BTW when it stalls traction control light comes on.

1 New coil modules.
2 New CPS Crank position sensors.
3 Checked wiring for shorts.
4 Cleaned grounds on computer and traction computer.
5 Cleaned the area on the head where the spring connects to.
6 Banged my head against a wall several times. :>(

BTW guys the car has a new tranny replaced about 5 mos ago.
One of my questions is do you think the computer could be overvolting the coils, I say this beacuse I have checked and repalaced every ground possible as well as adding grounds. Any help would be a godsend as I am so fustrated with this car but looked real hard to get a 00 eldo and love the car but cannot fix this for the life of me. Thanks in advance.

JimD
06-11-07, 10:35 AM
Is there a relationship between the cradle being dropped to R & R the transmission and the onset of your ignition problems? That is the first question I would have after reading your post.

Dropping the cradle provides plenty of opportunities to damage a wire bundle or leave a connector not fully seated or any number of other items that were not installed correctly or left hanging loose.

Eldobroken
06-11-07, 07:39 PM
Is there a relationship between the cradle being dropped to R & R the transmission and the onset of your ignition problems? That is the first question I would have after reading your post.

Dropping the cradle provides plenty of opportunities to damage a wire bundle or leave a connector not fully seated or any number of other items that were not installed correctly or left hanging loose.
Yes the problems started about 2 weeks after.

AJxtcman
06-12-07, 08:02 AM
Grounds
The front of the trans may have three seperate bolted grounds

AJxtcman
06-12-07, 08:20 AM
Ignition Coils/Modules
The electronic ignition system uses an individual ignition coil for each cylinder. There are two separate ignition module assemblies located in the camshaft cover of each cylinder bank. Each ignition module assembly contains an ignition control module and four ignition coils. Each ignition coil connects directly to a spark plug using a boot. This arrangement eliminates the need for secondary ignition wires. The ignition module assemblies receive power from a fused ignition feed. Both ignition module assemblies connect to chassis ground. A Reference Low and four ignition control (IC) circuits connect each ignition module assembly to the PCM. The PCM uses the individual IC circuits to control coil sequencing and spark timing for each ignition coil. The IC circuits transmit timing pulses from the PCM to the ignition control module to trigger the ignition coil and fire the spark plug. The PCM controls ignition system sequencing and timing events.

This ignition system produces very high energy to fire the spark plug. There is no energy loss because of ignition wire resistance, or the resistance of the waste spark system. Also, since the firing is sequential, each coil has seven ignition events to saturate as opposed to the three in a waste spark arrangement.

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Reference Low Circuits
The reference low circuits provide a common ground between the PCM, and the ignition control modules. These circuits reduce the electrical ground shifts that may occur between the PCM and the ignition control modules. A malfunction in the reference low circuits may cause a poor driveability condition.

Results of Incorrect Operation
An Ignition control circuit that is open, grounded, or shorted to voltage will set an ignition control circuit DTC. If a fault occurs in the IC output circuit when the engine is running, the engine will experience a misfire. DTCs P0351-P0358 indicate that the PCM detects a short to ground on an Ignition Control circuit. DTCs P1359 or P1360 will set when the PCM detects an open, a short to voltage on an IC circuit(s) that involve a cylinder group (i.e., cylinders 1/4/6/7 or 2/3/5/8). If both DTC P1359 and P1360 set, the most likely cause is a disconnected ignition coil cassette harness connector. An IC circuit shorted to voltage results in a loss of two cylinders within the specific cylinder group. For example, if the IC circuit for cylinder 1 is shorted to voltage, a loss of both IC circuits for cylinder 1 and cylinder 7 will occur.

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Document ID# 575142
2000 Cadillac Eldorado


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Secondary Ignition Diagnosis
Circuit Description
The Secondary Ignition Diagnosis tests the spark plugs, ignition coils, and ignition control modules. The PCM causes a spark to occur by grounding the IC circuit, which signals the ignition control module to trigger the ignition coil and fire the spark plug. The PCM controls the sequencing and timing of the spark based on the crankshaft and camshaft sensors input.

Diagnostic Aids
When servicing the ignition system components, use the following recommended procedures:

If a boot remains attached to a coil or spark plug, twist the boot prior to removal.

Inspect the boot for a missing or damaged internal spring.

Do not re-install any component that has visible signs of damage.

Install the boots onto the coils (until bottomed out). Then install the assembly onto the spark plugs. If this is not possible due to space limitations, start the boots onto the spark plugs and then install the coil assembly as straight down onto the plugs as possible.

Ensure the boots are installed right side up.

Lift the module beauty cover at the end opposite the module to remove.

Repair a torn perimeter seal with RTV sealant.

Adhere to the torque specifications when installing the coil cassette to the cam cover and the ignition module to the coil cassette.

A suspected ignition system misfire may actually be a condition other than the secondary ignition system. Verify proper operation of the following items:

Fuel System

- Fuel Injector Balance Test with Special Tool or Fuel Injector Balance Test with Tech 2 .

- Fuel Injector Coil Test - Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT) Between 10-35 Degrees C (50-95 Degrees F) .

- Fuel Injector Coil Test - Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT) Outside 10-35 Degrees C (50-95 Degrees F) .

Engine Mechanical Test for base engine conditions that could produce an engine misfire. Refer to Base Engine Misfire Diagnosis in Engine Mechanical 4.6L.

If the misfire is not present while operating the engine with the J 36012 spark plug jumper wires in place, and the misfire is present while the boots are installed, replace the affected boot.

Test Description
The numbers below refer to the step numbers on the diagnostic table.

An ignition coil, boots or spark plugs may misfire only when moisture is present. Although difficult to test on this engine, selectively wetting down parts of the system and monitoring for misfire, may isolate an intermittent condition. If moisture is present in the spark plug/ignition coil cavity of the cam cover, inspect the perimeter seal for damage. Repair tears in the perimeter seal with RTV sealant.

The J 26792 spark tester (ST 125) places a higher load on the secondary ignition than a normal spark plug.

Use the correct adaptor harness when connecting the Ignition Module Tester. Using an adaptor harness for a different engine application will result in incorrect tool operation.

The green Power LED should come on any time the ignition module tester is connected and the ignition switch is in the run position. This LED indicates that the J 43298 is receiving adequate power and ground to perform the test. The Test button is used as an LED check for the four red LEDs. To use this function, connect the tool, turn the ignition switch to run, then momentarily press the Test button. All four red LEDs should come on brightly. Then crank the vehicle. If the four red LEDs flash, this confirms proper operation of the primary ignition system (PCM, wiring, connections, and ICM). The Ignition Module Tester may get hot during actual testing. This is because it is attempting to simulate the load of the ignition coils primary windings.

If the LEDs flash, the module output drivers are operating. If one or more LEDs are inoperative, and no individual IC Circuit (351-358), or IC Circuit Group (1359 and/or 1360) DTCs are set, replace the module.

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AJxtcman
06-12-07, 08:29 AM
This is the circuit that is over loaded. Not good.

Eldobroken
06-12-07, 10:40 AM
This is the circuit that is over loaded. Not good.
Exactly both the front and back packs. I will take a pic but the ground springs are getting so hot that they lose there spring. I have to take them off and restretch the springs to make ground. When I put it back together it runs perfect. So mabye the computer is overvolting the packs?

Eldobroken
06-13-07, 02:04 AM
Grounds
The front of the trans may have three seperate bolted grounds
Thanks I spoke to another caddy mechanic and he says also that sometimes they bend pins on 3 or 4 different plugs going into tranny or just do not plug them in completly, Well anyway I have to put a radiator in the car also Leaking so I will pull out a few ather things also and try to get a good look. If not back to the tranny shop beacuse I really think it has to have something to do with it. Or mabye a bad computer?

AJxtcman
06-13-07, 07:57 AM
I will go over the ground locations with you and the splice pack.
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100 # are in the engine compartment
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G100 is the Battery cable. this is the little lead that is bolted to the body

G101 is the bolt on the body near the air filter. It is for the front lamps

G102 is the bolt on the rear of the rear head near the temp sensor and is the main PCM GROUND****

G103 is a bolt on the front of the trans with two wire tapped together. THIS IS THE IGNITION MODULE/COIL GROUND*****

G105 is the large battery cable attached to the head near the battery

G107 is 1 or 2 of the bolts on the front of the TRANS. This is for the fans, ABS pump, AC compressor.******

G110 is located with G101. G110 is for the ABS module.

The main PCM ground circuit (G102 ) has a splice in the circuit. #S125. This is located under the throttle body in the main harness. It may have been damaged when the trans was removed. The main harness needs to be forced out of its location to access the bell housing bolts.

AJxtcman
06-13-07, 08:01 AM
How many miles on this car?
how many miles on the plug?
What type of plugs? Brand? if they have been repladed

AJxtcman
06-13-07, 08:05 AM
I have the engine out currently on a 00 Eldo. I traced out the G103 connection. G103 is the ground location for both coil packs. It is on the front of the trans on the left lower bolt. This bolt had one heavy gauge wire on one eyelet and two small wires tapped together on the other eyelet.

Eldobroken
06-15-07, 08:12 AM
I have the engine out currently on a 00 Eldo. I traced out the G103 connection. G103 is the ground location for both coil packs. It is on the front of the trans on the left lower bolt. This bolt had one heavy gauge wire on one eyelet and two small wires tapped together on the other eyelet.
Thanks for all of the info and for looking for me. I will have to take a look I do not remember any grounds going to the rear head but there was a hole that looked like a mount for a ground bolt on the head. I am going to go over it all this weekend or early next week. The Radiator went the same plastic POS that made me replace my 94 eldos radiator before i sold it. Anyway I ordered from that gm parts direct site first time using them and I have not gotten a tracking number in 2 days. So once I get the radiator out I will go over everything. BTW car just broke 100k mostly highway I changed all the plugs ac delcos. Fuel pump crank pos sensors and all the normal maintence. LOL well for caddy the crank pos sensors are normal. Thanks for all the help
Here is a pic http://www.xpnt.com/page16.html

Eldobroken
06-20-07, 07:33 AM
Well got the radiator in so its off to the tranny shop to check their work. BTW the big plug in the traction computer looks dirty think maybe take it off and check?

LS7505
06-24-07, 10:54 PM
Hey Eldobroken,

Can you PM me your e-mail address? Thanks.

-LS7505

Eldobroken
07-04-07, 10:52 AM
Guys this is getting crazy tranny place lays all grounds good. I took out PCM and it physically looks ok inside and out but who knows.
But before I took it out new crap on the display saying something like Theft system malfunction car might not restart. Anyone know mabye PCM is shot. Thanks guys.

AJxtcman
07-04-07, 12:29 PM
What is the spark plug # that you installed?
Can you post a picture of the coil cassette?
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Remove the air filter, PCM box and under hood electrical center cover. You will need to leave the PCM and Mass sensor connected. Check the main battery feed going the the Maxi fuses. It will be a 10mm headed bolt. It could be loose. Next start the car and let it idle. In the engine compartment you will have two large harnesses near the upper front of the trans near the fill hole. One goes to the PCM and the other goes to the under hood electrical center ( UHEC ). Grasp this harness and tug on it. Also check the fuses that are connected to this harness by wiggling them. If the car dies when you wiggled or tugged you need to look at these areas. Next the harness that wraps around from the rear of the trans under the master cylinder and to the UHEC. Make sure that both connectors are seated and give that harness some good tugs also. You have that AIR pipe in the way of everything and you never know what the trans guys did to get the trans out. The pipe should have been removed, but they may have pry-ed the trans in and out. They could have damaged a wire.

Eldobroken
07-04-07, 03:46 PM
What is the spark plug # that you installed?
Can you post a picture of the coil cassette?
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Remove the air filter, PCM box and under hood electrical center cover. You will need to leave the PCM and Mass sensor connected. Check the main battery feed going the the Maxi fuses. It will be a 10mm headed bolt. It could be loose. Next start the car and let it idle. In the engine compartment you will have two large harnesses near the upper front of the trans near the fill hole. One goes to the PCM and the other goes to the under hood electrical center ( UHEC ). Grasp this harness and tug on it. Also check the fuses that are connected to this harness by wiggling them. If the car dies when you wiggled or tugged you need to look at these areas. Next the harness that wraps around from the rear of the trans under the master cylinder and to the UHEC. Make sure that both connectors are seated and give that harness some good tugs also. You have that AIR pipe in the way of everything and you never know what the trans guys did to get the trans out. The pipe should have been removed, but they may have pry-ed the trans in and out. They could have damaged a wire.
Thanks bud I will take some pics tommorow. So far connections look good but one thing what is the thing that looks like a vaccum hose coming out of one main plug and goes nowhere. Thanks and happy 4th

Eldobroken
07-04-07, 03:58 PM
Ahh starting to make sense I just got the car back from the tranny place before I took the PCM out. I told them to check the grounds they said they were ok. Now here is what gets me. I get the car back from them with the theft system malfunction car may not restart message. So mabye there is a bad bunch of wires. Beacuse I never had that message before. Anyways thanks again I will check and take some pics tommorow.