Looks like my A/C might need to be recharged soon and I was thinking of coverting from the R12 to the R134 and was wondering if anyone has done this before and if they may have any tips? I know I can get the conversion kit at autozone or wally mart fairly cheap but other then just swapping the connection and taking out the old R12 and replaceing it with R134 is there anything else to it?

I bought this kit:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Freeze-12-Freon-R12-R-12-REPLACEMENT-1-Quick-Charge-Kit_W0QQitemZ320124174340QQihZ011QQcategoryZ46094Q QrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


Easy to use and even comes with the oil :thumbsup:

So do I just add the freeze 12 with the R12 or do I have to remove the R12 first then add it?

You just add it, it is compatible.

The write up was talking about it being a replacement which made we wonder if I had to drain the old stuff. So if all I need is to recharge I can add one can and I should be good no need to drain, vaccum lines out then replace?

96Fleetwood thank you so much! Finally someone that actually help me out.

I don't know about Freeze12, but to convert from R12 to R134a, you have to change the accumulator, drain and flush all components, add the proper amount of Pag oil, vacuum and recharge.

Your welcome! I used it on my Dad's 78 Eldorado and now on my '86 Parisienne, no need to convert to R134 yet since this stuff is affordable.

All you do is follow the instructions, it is just like topping off the R134 systems (minus the lubricant).

Did you add the oil as well or just the Freeze 12?

Yes, I used the oil.

The law requires all the R-12 to be evacuated and permanent freeze-12 fittings to be installed, but I just added the freeze-12 to the existing R-12 with no issues. This isn't recommended. So to do it right, I would evacuate all the R12 out, because the freeze 12 is a mixture of 134 and 12.

Here is some good reading:

http://autorefrigerants.com/co00030.htm

Freeze 12 is actually 80% R134a and 20% R142b

One of the reasons systems should be retrofit properly and NOT topped off is that if you take your car to a service center later and they hook up to your car your laziness could cost you a substantial amount of money.
When I service A/C systems, one of the steps I take is to recover your refrigerant to see how much is in your car. If I recover contaminated refrigerant into my machine and ruin 20 pounds of good refrigerant there is going to be a problem. Most modern machines have a built in identifier that stops that type of contamination from happening but old R-12 machines usually don't.
It costs a bundle of money to deal with problems like that and many shops will pass that expense right on to the person who is responsible.

If you must use a different refrigerant, follow the instructions to properly retrofit your car to use that refrigerant, that includes fittings and labels to identify what you have done.

You can readily purchase a kit to retrofit to R-134a that has fittings, oil, and most things necessary to do so. Be sure to find and fix any leaks before you charge the system.

But pulling out good R12 or R134a for no reason is illegal (and immoral), and nasty fines by EPA ($10K and up per violation), if you pull it out and refill and charge (as in $$) for new R12 or R134a to be put back in. You cannot remove good freon, and put it back in (or even the old freon) and charge for it legally. Recovering freon just to "see how much" is illegal unless it is all put back in and not charged for. Be careful on how that is done. The list of dealers and shops that are fined (for many many reasons including that) are long listed at EPA.gov, take a look. There is no reason to pull freon out ever to see how much is in there, that is why GM has very detailed pressure charts in the FSM. You fill by weight, but maintaining the pressures are quite important also. I won't take my car to a shop that would ever think of removing it just to see what is in there.

If a shop ever did that to my car I would rip them up one side and down the other.

One of the reasons systems should be retrofit properly and NOT topped off is that if you take your car to a service center later and they hook up to your car your laziness could cost you a substantial amount of money.
When I service A/C systems, one of the steps I take is to recover your refrigerant to see how much is in your car. If I recover contaminated refrigerant into my machine and ruin 20 pounds of good refrigerant there is going to be a problem. Most modern machines have a built in identifier that stops that type of contamination from happening but old R-12 machines usually don't.
It costs a bundle of money to deal with problems like that and many shops will pass that expense right on to the person who is responsible.

If you must use a different refrigerant, follow the instructions to properly retrofit your car to use that refrigerant, that includes fittings and labels to identify what you have done.

You can readily purchase a kit to retrofit to R-134a that has fittings, oil, and most things necessary to do so. Be sure to find and fix any leaks before you charge the system.

If you are looking to retrofit, read this from the EPA: http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/609/consumers/choice.html

FYI, this is the list of acceptable and unacceptable freons from the EPA:
http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigerants/macssubs.html

Acceptable Subject to Use
HFC-134a
FR-12
Free Zone/RB-276
Ikon-12
R-406A/GHG6
GHG-HP
GHG-X4/Autofrost/Chill-It
Hot Shot/Kar Kool
Freeze 12
GHG-X5
SP34E
R-420A
R-426A (RS-24, new formulation)

Unacceptable Substitutes (2) Name (1) Date Manufacturer Reason
OZ-12® 3/18/94 OZ Technology Flammable blend of hydrocarbons; insufficient data to demonstrate safety
R-176 3/18/94 Arctic Chill Contains CFC-12, which is inappropriate in a CFC-12 substitute
HC-12a® 6/13/95 OZ Technology Flammable blend of hydrocarbons; insufficient data to demonstrate safety
Duracool 12a 6/13/95 Duracool Limited This blend is identical to HC-12a® in composition but is manufactured by a different company
R-405A 6/13/95 Greencool Contains a perfluorocarbon, which has extremely high global warming potential and lifetime

1. Many refrigerants, including R-401A (made by DuPont), R-401B (DuPont), R-409A (Elf Atochem), Care 30 (Calor Gas), Adak-29/Adak-12 (TACIP Int'l), MT-31 (Millenia Tech), and ES-12R (Intervest), have not been submitted for review in motor vehicle air conditioning, and it is therefore illegal to use these refrigerants in such systems as an alternative to CFC-12.
2. See text for details on legality of use according to status
* Acceptable Subject to Use Conditions
* regarding fittings, labeling, no drop-in, and compressor shutoff switches. Unacceptable; illegal for use as a CFC-12 substitute in motor vehicle air conditioners

I am not sure if you are trying to accuse me of something there or not but I'll answer some of what I think needs to be addressed based on that post.

Charging the whole system by weight is much more precise than using a pressure table because of variations in ambient temperatures and humidity.
The system is designed to run on a given quantity of refrigerant.
I am not taking refrigerant out and sending people away with none, that would be stealing... not to mention stupid.
Many times I get systems that have been charged by pressure and they don't work properly because they have been overfilled.

As for the billing, I let them handle all that up front and I abide by whatever policy my company has.

I don't just drive down the road and steal refrigerant, if someone brings me a car with the system not working I need to know if it is low or overcharged or whatever. Over the last 15 years or so I have fixed many an A/C system without ripping anyone off and my customers are quite satisfied with my services.
I have been MACS certified in refrigerant handling since about 1994 and am well versed in finding and fixing exactly what is wrong on the first visit.
I know everyone can't be a pro and have the equipment to do the job that I can do, I just wanted to offer some constructive advice to prevent someone from ending up paying a huge bill when their "drop in" mixture screws up someone's equipment and they get hit with a hazmat bill and charged for the lost refrigerant in the machine they contaminated. I think R-12 is going for about what.... $50-$60 a pound these days? Multiply that by 20 or so and it is more than I have to throw away.

GM has a detailed procedure on how to diagnose and repair A/C systems.
I follow that.

Sorry if I misunderstood the point of your post.
;)

No, not accusing you at all, sorry, it is hard to explain this point. I can't find the EPA's comments on it, but they are stiff. But basically you bring your car into a shop, they pull the freon "to see what you have", and then recharge it, charging you for the full amount of the freon (of course, NEW freon), and you go out the door with a hefty bill, now perfectly good freon was removed for the wrong reason. For an average 2.5-3 lb system @ $60/lb, that is quite painful, or my Suburban at nearly 4 lbs, that is $240ish, no labor charged. The EPA is VERY harsh on this practice, good freon is NOT to be removed just to remove it. It is illegal to remove freon in this manner. If you remove it, measure and reinstall, that is perfectly fine, but you cannot charge the customer for their own freon. So if the front office IS doing this, then you could be the scapegoat, be cautious.

My AC in my 94 runs fantastic (even for R134a), what I found is the orifice filter plugged last year, causing skyrocketing pressures (found out the hard way there is a popoff overpressure valve) and I ended up having to flush the system to get out all the junk. The OEM compressor died (for unk reasons, long before I bought the car) and in 9 months, the replacement went belly up. So my car is on compressor #4. It works fine now. But I still got a lot of junk in the filter/screen, enough to plug it up good.

Having a good competent AC guy is key. AC isn't complicated at all, but if one doesn't understand the basics, leave it alone or learn.... I did, it was well worth the learning! One of these days I just need to get my cert, but I don't have the equipment at home to do it.....

I have found GM's material is very good, and great to learn from.....

If I could find a shop that would recharge my system for $50-$60 instead of buying this Freeze12 for $40 then I would go there in a second cause I would not need a full pound. The problem here is that shops charge way to much $$ for a simple charge especially R-12! This is the reason people try to find a cheaper solution to fix this problem and converting to the R-134 would be a better move then continuing to use the R-12 but if I can fix my recharge with 1 can of Freeze-12 I am very tempted instead of dropping $40 for the Freeze-12 kit or the R-134a kit.

Now saying this I am not accusing anyone of anything just stating how it is around here so please don't take offense ewill3rd.

I think I understand your point.
Just wanted to be sure ;)

I'd agree with what you say there.

I was thinking a moment ago about it, and the real reason I do it that way is because the machine charges by weight and not by pressure.
I can't tell it to charge to a certain pressure so I have to find out how much is in it so I can know how much to add.
Back in the day when I used a manifold set and a can tap I could add and watch the pressures but with the ACR 2000 that GM has us use we can only charge by weight.

The refrigerant handling certification test is available at ASE's website. It is an open book test that costs like $15 bucks and then you can buy stuff to do whatever you want to your A/C system.
I just try to do things in a more factory fashion because I am a factory tech.

I don't have a problem with changing refrigerants but as I said, please do it properly with the fittings and decals as required by law.
:D

I respect people's opinions even if they disagree with me guys, no offense taken.
I used to be where most of you are, frustrated.

I find it is easy to read things into posts that aren't really there so I just ask every once in a while to be sure ;)

Curious, what is the issue with mixing R134a and R12? The oil itself? What does it do that is so bad? I know it is supposed to mess up a lot if you mix.

But so many of the refrigerants (non R12, but R12 replacement) contain significant amounts of R134a, so it must be something else, the oils are about it.

Ideas?

I know a couple of things like R134 won't carry the mineral oil used in R12 systems. From what studying I have done, if you drop 134 into a 12 system without adding oil it will lock up. Most articles I have seen indicate that the mineral oil will just end up sitting in the bottom of the accumulator after time and be harmless but you have to put PAG oil in using the proper amount to keep the compressor lubricated.
Another reason for replacing the accumulator.

I think the primary thing that it does "bad" is contaminate the equipment.
Obviously if refrigerants are blends of 134 and other stuff there isn't going to be a chemical reaction but speaking for our equipment, it has a refrigerant identifier in it, if it detects 12 in a 134 system it will stop working.
The identifier looks for air, HCs, and foreign refrigerants and if it doesn't see over 99% 134 it locks up and spits out what it tasted.

So, in a nutshell, if you think you have mixed refrigerant, warn your mechanic ahead of time, save everyone lots of pain....

I am in this dilemma too. R12 is pricey since it is no longer made, But I still have good r12 left in the system, just not enough. If i were to convert to r134 then I would have to take it in and someone would recover whats left of my r12 and charge me money to do it.

I imagine it would then be possible for them to sell my r12 to another customer who wants to top off with r12 as opposed to converting to 134.

Going by what has been said here that is technically legal since they are pulling my r12 and not replacing it, but instead can charge me for a full fill of r134 and the labor to replace the fittings. I think that is what makes the alternate "drop in" replacements more appealing.

And the bit about the oil is correct, the oil moves through the system and keeps it lubricated, if the refrigarant can not carry the oil then the compressor doesnt stay lubricated and will seize up.

I am not sure (ewill3rd should know) it isn't legal to do that, pull R12 out and resell, it has been a while since I went over the review for the test. To me, that is call RECYCLING and a GOOD THING. So don't see why it would be illegal, but then again, our gov isn't always going to make sense....

Honestly, for the $30 for a retrofit kit, and the 3 cars I have done, it has done well, including my 91 Deville, which still has it in and is working well after 20K miles since I sold it.

Just make sure you vacuum it down as deep as possible if it has ever been open to air. This is a crucial step. Don't ever discount it for anything. If there was any repairs to the system, flush it with acetone or I have heard mineral spirits. I used Acetone and it was fine, it evaps well and leaves no reside. I have heard you need to dump the oil in the compressor, but never have and had no ill effects.

If the car is older, like early to mid 80's and older, look at getting new barrier hoses (note, probably a custom hose job, be careful not to get hosed), if not, then stay with R12. My 85 Cutlass went 200+K on stock R12 GM charged at the factory freon. Darn good system. OR, go with something like a retrofit freon that does NOT contain any R134a. The molecules in R134a are smaller than R12 and will penetrate the non barrier hoses.

But 91-92 was some of the earliest years of getting R134a, so all hoses were good.

Yes, I have a 93 so the hoses shouldnt be a problem. I figure that recycling isnt illegal and I imagine the shop who vacuums downs my r12 can legally resell it to another party, just sort of annoying to pay them to vacuum it when they can make a profit selling it to someone else lol. Guess thats the reward they get for having all the equipment to do so.

I imagine the best way to go is to pay to have the r12 recovered and make sure it holds good vacuum, then go purchase a good retrofit kit and charge it back up personally to save a few dollars. Relpacing stuff like the accumalator in the process

That is not an issue we deal with a lot.
Yes we do recover some R12 to do retrofits, but it is pretty rare, most of the systems have leaked out all the refrigerant already.
Even more rare is someone who wants to buy a full charge of R12 for an older car due to the cost per pound.
I could probably count on one hand the cars we have recovered R12 on in the last year. Not many folks with cars older than '93 even want to take their cars to the dealer due to the fact that most dealers have higher labor rates than the independent shops.

I don't know what it is R10 is selling for these days.
I don't really know the letter of the law regarding this either.
It is not much of an issue here lately for us. I suspect there are independents that deal with this every day, however.
One thing to remember is that if a car comes in for service, it is usually low already. What you are giving them is probably substantially less than one pound and most cars take closer to two. The machines being used are quite expensive, but very effective at doing this work properly.
The machines that recover the refrigerant have built in filter-driers that do indeed recycle the refrigerant and get it ready for use.

A good vacuum is pretty critical for effective system operation. The machine we use now has a pretty sweet vacuum pump, it runs for three minutes minimum and then pulls the system down to 28" Hg.

In doing this research and looking at the possibility of converting I bought a conversion kit and with this kit you get a CD on how to do it. I had my wife copy the CD and she watched it as I did some house work but she did tell me that most shop would NOT charge to remove the R-12 is this true ewill3rd? She said that since R-12 is so expensive that shops would remove for free and just keep it for resale. This being the cause then I can remove my R-12 and convert with no hassel since the kit gives you everything else or I can just get the Freeze-12 kit and charge my system also with no hassel since I can just add it to the exisiting system as long as I mark my system and such.

A lot of good info was passed around here and I would like to thank everyone who participated on this thread. Everyone was great and everyone opinion is well respected, thanks you'll...

You'd have to contact the shop you might have do the work for you.
I am sure they might recover it for no charge if you simply want the R-12 removed.

I am not sure what our policy is on something like that might be, it has never come up.

Chuwee,
Do you have a vacuum pump to vacuum it down after they remove the R12? If not, you might want to have the shop install the Freeze12 after you do the conversion.

I talked to a Pep Boys years ago and they won't do just a recovery, they want to do a service anyway and charge you through the nose.... Just no fill when you are done.

Ranger,
To my understanding I can just add the Freeze 12 to my system if I choose to leave the R-12 in there. According to the guy on ebay that sells it it is a recharge process not a conversion. Now if I convert to the R-134a then yes I would have to remove the R-12 and add the new adaptors to the old fittings then I can add the R-134a. I was also thinking I would have to flush my system but according to the CD, that came with the kit, all they say to do is Step1: Remove old R-12, Step2: Connect/Add the new adaptors, Step3: Add the R-134a (even shows how to calculate the amount to add), and Step4: Adding sticker of conversion from R-12 to R-134a.

The process looks fairly simple and a co-worker that did it said the same but I have decided to go with the Freeze 12 so I do not have to change anything else and just add one or two cans.:stirpot:

Oh by the way that same R-134a kit CD also has the EPA test to get your certificate for $19. Even though I am no machanic and have no use for it I am going to take it and get knowledgable on A/C on this. I ahve also purchased the DVD that autozone sells for $6 that shows you the ends and outs in A/C repair. Sometimes I really hate working with engineers...LOL:bighead:

Gotcha. I thought you were going to remove the R12 and replace it with Freeze12.

Hey Chuwee:

~ I went with the Freeze 12 some time ago and have been completely satisfied with the results. Make sure you add the Freeze 12 Oil so as not to have any oil issues down the road! Sure beats the $200 dollars plus that the few shops around here that still work with R12 wanted to top off my Coupe!?

Skullman {:{}

My Fleetwood Coupe
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/406096
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v170/skullmans/My_Coupe.jpg

Skullman,
Yea I did the Freeze 12 as well and am very happy. I also bought the DVD from autozone and man it is not difficult to work on an A/C system at all. I might convert totally but for now I am happy and thats what counts right now...lol