: What now?



Sasquatch
04-04-04, 07:27 AM
Got everything put back together today on my 69 Caddy hearse with the 472. Updated all the cooling due to the car spitting water out the overflow during shutdown. Started it up ran fine went in the house to grab my sunglasses to go for a drive and while backing out of the driveway the car began sputtering and I noticed the power brakes were not functioning all that well. Got out removed the air cleaner cover and saw condensation. Checked the dipstick and milky white oil. Blown head gasket?:bonkers: The motor has 133,000 miles and I just got the car about three weeks ago. I was quoted a price of $1100.00 for valve job and fixing the heads depending upon what they need. What about the rest of the motor? When putting these new "guts" in won't it further stress the lower end of the motor? Should I go for a total rebuild? Maybe a crate motor. I'm really bummed out about this. My wife says not to worry and we'll get it fixed but I can't help being down in the dumps. Any suggestions I would appreciate. Thanks.:bighead:

capn_zoom
04-04-04, 12:27 PM
Let the car sit for several hours, then pull the dipstick again. If you see oil on the bottom of the dipstick and water on the top or if you see stuff that looks like mayo, a significant amount of water is getting in there. You could also drain the oil and catch it in some kind of container and examine it (this may also tell you if there's flecks of metal in the oil from the bearings). There may also be oil present in the radiator or overflow container. You can run a few different tests (I would recommend a leakdown test if you have a source of compressed air). What you're describing sounds like a blown head gasket or (less likely) a cracked block or head. Since you probably don't know the entire history of the engine, I would STRONGLY recommend going thru it completely if you find water in the oil. If you have run the engine for any time at all with water/coolant in the oil, the main, rod, or cam bearings may be worn (water doesn't lubricate bearings). If you're a handy guy, pull the engine, disassemble it yourself, and examine everything. Make note of any main or rod bearings that are worn, and mark each piston, rod, and bearing so you know where it came from. Take the components to a machine shop you TRUST. Explain your budget and make sure that they are willing to work with you BEFORE you let them near your stuff or drop anything off. Some shops make money by pushing stuff that is trivial or unnecessary. Have them pressure test the block and heads to make sure there are no cracks EVEN IF YOU FIND A HEAD GASKET THAT IS OBVIOUSLY BLOWN. These blocks are tough and often do not need to be bored/honed or decked, but you need to know before you plunk down hard-earned green. If all of the major components check out, you may be able to just freshen the engine (new rings, bearings, and gaskets, but reuse pistons, crank, rods, etc.). You may want to have the shop put in new cam bearings for peace of mind. When reassembling, get a new timing set (chain and gears) as the factory pieces are junk. Check the oil pump very carefully, and if any of the bearings came apart due to coolant or if you see any metal in it, you may want to replace the pump (the $80-$90 you spend here could keep your engine alive). If you plan to run this engine hard, get a set of ARP or equivalent rod bolts. I would also STRONGLY recommend replacing the head bolts, especially if the car blew a head gasket (clamping load here is critical). Depending on what's wrong with the engine, you may be able to fix it for not too much more than the machine shop already quoted you, but be sure to budget everything BEFORE you start. I can understand you being bummed out, but these engines are tough, and really extensive rebuilds are often not necessary to get them running again. I'll try to give you advice as best I can if you post to this site again.

Have I talked long enough? I'll shut up now. :canttalk:

Sasquatch
04-04-04, 02:36 PM
Thanks for your reply I really appreciate it. I've found a replacement motor for $1376.45. Almost seems worth it to go ahead and just buy a rebuilt motor ready to drop in. Didn't run it that long with water in the oil. I'd say about ten minutes or so at idle in the driveway. Here's the description of the motor from the web site.

Xtra Long Block - XLB - includes: engine block, gaskets, lifters and oil pump, with head(s) installed onto the block and push rods & rocker arms installed -- assembly is compression tested. **(12 month unlimited mileage warranty)** see Limited Warranty (http://www.newengineparts.com/body_warranty.html) for complete details.

I'll include the link. Hope it works. When I had the water pump off I used the garden hose to flush out the block. Could this somehow have forced water into the engine? I doubt it but thought I would include the info. Here's the link

http://www.newengineparts.com/4.htm...wood+Br ougham (http://www.newengineparts.com/4.html?netid=B0565E28-9E25-448B-C1659E6C6C4BE6D5&predicate=8824%7C164842%7C7.7L%7CV8%7C&Submit=Display+Rebuild+Kit+%26+Parts&net_where1=+and+item_number+like+%278824%25%27and+ parent_id+%3D+%27164842%27&net_where2=+and+item_number+like+%278824%25%27and+ parent_id+%3D+%27164842%27&net_where3=+and+item_number+not+like+%278824%25%27 +and+parent_id+%3D+%27164842%27&net_where4=+and+item_number+not+like+%278824%25%27 +and+parent_id+%3D+%27164842%27&net_where5=+and+item_number+not+like+%278824%25%27 +and+parent_id+%3D+%27164842%27&net_display1=Cadillac%7C1971%7C%7CFleetwood%2FFlee twood+Brougham%7C7.7L%7CV8&hold=Cadillac%7C1971%7C%7CFleetwood%2FFleetwood+Br ougham)

Being 133,000 mile motor and not knowing the history I'm thinking complete rebuild or replacement for peace of mind. All the trouble of doing the rebuild compared to just buying one at a REASONABLE price that would be comparable to the parts of the rebuild may be easier. I don't know. How much can one save if he does the rebuild himself as compared to the cost of the motor I've listed. I have several other emails out to other engine rebuild factories for price quotes but I'm sure I won't hear anything back until Monday. Thanks for any help and advice.

MMNineInchNails
04-04-04, 03:26 PM
Thanks for your reply I really appreciate it. I've found a replacement motor for $1376.45. Almost seems worth it to go ahead and just buy a rebuilt motor ready to drop in. Didn't run it that long with water in the oil. I'd say about ten minutes or so at idle in the driveway. Here's the description of the motor from the web site.

Xtra Long Block - XLB - includes: engine block, gaskets, lifters and oil pump, with head(s) installed onto the block and push rods & rocker arms installed -- assembly is compression tested. **(12 month unlimited mileage warranty)** see Limited Warranty (http://www.newengineparts.com/body_warranty.html) for complete details.



I'll include the link. Hope it works. When I had the water pump off I used the garden hose to flush out the block. Could this somehow have forced water into the engine? I doubt it but thought I would include the info. Here's the link

http://www.newengineparts.com/4.htm...wood+Br ougham (http://www.newengineparts.com/4.html?netid=B0565E28-9E25-448B-C1659E6C6C4BE6D5&predicate=8824%7C164842%7C7.7L%7CV8%7C&Submit=Display+Rebuild+Kit+%26+Parts&net_where1=+and+item_number+like+%278824%25%27and+ parent_id+%3D+%27164842%27&net_where2=+and+item_number+like+%278824%25%27and+ parent_id+%3D+%27164842%27&net_where3=+and+item_number+not+like+%278824%25%27 +and+parent_id+%3D+%27164842%27&net_where4=+and+item_number+not+like+%278824%25%27 +and+parent_id+%3D+%27164842%27&net_where5=+and+item_number+not+like+%278824%25%27 +and+parent_id+%3D+%27164842%27&net_display1=Cadillac%7C1971%7C%7CFleetwood%2FFlee twood+Brougham%7C7.7L%7CV8&hold=Cadillac%7C1971%7C%7CFleetwood%2FFleetwood+Br ougham)

Being 133,000 mile motor and not knowing the history I'm thinking complete rebuild or replacement for peace of mind. All the trouble of doing the rebuild compared to just buying one at a REASONABLE price that would be comparable to the parts of the rebuild may be easier. I don't know. How much can one save if he does the rebuild himself as compared to the cost of the motor I've listed. I have several other emails out to other engine rebuild factories for price quotes but I'm sure I won't hear anything back until Monday. Thanks for any help and advice.

That's not a full engine though, you can't just drop that in. It's only a long block. You'll still need parts on there. It will ONLY include the long block which is everything in the block like pistons, etc., all gaskets, lifters and oil pump, heads, pushrods, and rocker arms. You'll still need an intake manifold, carb, water pump, power steering, valve covers, all that stuff. If you want the full engine get a CRATE engine, not a long block, unless you're going to be putting in all that stuff by yourself and doing all your own labor.

How is your radiator looking anyways? if you're going to be putting all this money into a new engine, you'll probably want to replace a few other things to properly maintain it. I'd rewire it if it needed it while the engines out because IMO cadillac did a half ass job of wiring everything in there.

Sasquatch
04-04-04, 04:19 PM
I know I have to put that stuff on but that's alot easier than a total rebuild. The entire cooling system is brand new. As I stated in a previous thread. I noticed when I shut the motor down the car was spitting water out the overflow. Never saw any sensor lights come on and all are good cause I checked. I decide to upgrade the cooling system for future AC application and to solve overflow problem. The last time I drove it I parked it when I got home. Pulled it in the driveway the next morning and began tearing out the radiator water pump thermostat and fan spacer set up. I took my garden hose flushed out the block and after ordering a new four row radiator installed my heavy duty fan clutch, seven bladed cooling fan (from a 76 Coupe Deville) thermostat, belts the whole nine yards. I had no clue that anything was wrong. As far as I knew it didn't get hot enough to damage anything. Fired it up ran great for about ten minutes then the problems started. Here's the thing the fluid level in the radiator is still to the top. Should I see a significant drop in fluid level? Could I somehow have gotten water in the oil when I flushed the block? Don't know. Also in looking in my shop manual I noticed that four of the bolts to the water pump require sealant when you install the new pump. Why is that? Could this be the problem? I did use sealant but maybe not enough? If anyone would like to email me at psychosasquatch@cfl.rr.com I'll be happy to scan the page from the manual and send it to you. Thanks.

lux hauler
04-04-04, 05:29 PM
This don't have anything to do with water in the oil but it might explain the fluid coming out of the overflow. What type of radiator cap are you using? I believe factory caps are 20# caps. These motors were designed to run hotter than most people are used to. As a matter of fact, I've read that the factory temp sensors would not trip until the operating temperature was 256*!!! That's the reason for the higher pressure cap.
With these engines being able to operate normally at those temps, I doubt (assuming the colling system was operating correctly), overheating was the cause of your problems.

capn_zoom
04-04-04, 06:02 PM
If the oil is as milky as you say it is, something is very likely seriously wrong. There should not be any significant amount of water or antifreeze in the oil. As to whether you should purchase the long block, the answer is that it all depends. If your engine just blew a head gasket and did not overheat severely at any time, you MAY be able to get away with the most minimal "rebuild." This would include replacing the engine gaskets and perhaps a couple of other components (you have a new water pump and stat, which is good, but I would also recommend putting in new freeze plugs, head bolts, and perhaps better rod bolts and a new oil pump as a precaution--might as well do it right). Pressure testing the block and heads at a machine shop would likely also be a good idea. You might be able to get away with a rebuild like this for $500-$600 if you do the removal/install yourself, but you may pull the engine and tear it down only to find burnt or pitted valves, worn bearings, or cracked/warped heads. If you're really butch and get lucky, you may be able to get it done for the $150 or so that it would cost for a new gasket set (assuming you find NOTHING wrong with this engine). However, on a 133,000 mile engine, it is likely that at least some of the valves are pitted, and the valvesprings on these engines are not known for their longevity or great strength. If it overheated before you owned it or after you shut it off one night and it boiled over, kiss your easy rebuild goodbye. Bottom line? You may want to pull the engine and tear it down on the chance that everything is in great shape, but $1300 or so for a long block is still a pretty good deal if you don't want to take any chances. I'd be mighty tempted to take this road. Just make sure the freight charges aren't ridiculous if you buy this engine.

Sasquatch
04-04-04, 08:46 PM
Here's the thing the water in the radiator is still topped off. It's as if no water was lost at all. That's why I was thinking that it could have come from me flushing the motor. I believe the third port which is a smaller one was the water return for the thermostat. Before the thermostat would open the motor would recirculate to the pump this way. According to my shop manual. If you would like to email me at psychosasquatch@cfl.rr.com I can scan the page and send it to you. This motor ran great before this other than spitting water out the overflow. No smoking at start up or during operation. Therefor I believe the pistons and rings and such should be in pretty good shape. Could water have gotten in through the intake when I flushed the block? Gonna start breaking it down tomorrow. I'll start with the intake manifold. Any suggestions on what to look for.

lux hauler
04-04-04, 11:33 PM
Exactly how did you "flush" the engine?

Seeing how the water pump holds most of the timing cover on, if the water pump bolts were left out of the timing cover, water could have gotten inside the engine that way. Or, if the timing cover seal was broken when the pump was removed and the gasket was not replaced, water could be getting in that way. Check to see if there's any oil seepage around that front cover.

Before you tear into it, it might be worth it to drain the oil pan, fill it with fresh oil and try it again. Oh, don't forget a new oil filter too.

MMNineInchNails
04-05-04, 12:04 AM
How did you flush the engine? by sticking in the garden hose into the thermostat housing and covering the area with your hand until water comes out the radiator hose? if so, you can't get water into the oil. I did that and she's fine.

lux hauler
04-05-04, 05:48 AM
How did you flush the engine? by sticking in the garden hose into the thermostat housing and covering the area with your hand until water comes out the radiator hose? if so, you can't get water into the oil. I did that and she's fine.If the water pump is removed and the timing cover gasket isn't sealing the front cover, water can and probably will enter the engine in the timing chain area.

Sasquatch
04-05-04, 07:16 AM
Why do 4 bolts on the water pump require sealant? I used some but maybe not enough. I'm gonna drain the oil and try again. It is very possible some water may have gotten in through the engine front cover. It's worth a try.

lux hauler
04-05-04, 04:31 PM
If that gasket seal was broken, you'll probably need a new gasket to get it to seal correctly.......unless you can somehow get it cleaned up and use some sort of gasket maker (Permatex, etc.).

capn_zoom
04-05-04, 08:35 PM
4 bolts on the water pump most likely require sealant because they thread into a water passage instead of into a blind bolt hole. Without sealant, coolant will climb the threads and eventually start to seep out. Yes, if the front timing cover was apart when you flushed the block water could easily get into the block, but all it would do is froth the oil. Water in the oil most likely would not cause the misfire or the coolant boil-over upon shutdown that you are experiencing. Even if coolant is seeping past a head gasket, it may not drop the coolant level in the radiator or overflow that much (those radiators are mighty big), but it can still cause milky oil. I'd consider thoroughly draining the oil (note how much water is present in the oil when you do). Use empty gallon jugs or containers of a known size to see how much oil/water mix there is in the pan. If you see no metal particles in the oil, fill the engine with with fresh oil and a new filter, and start it up. Let the engine warm up. After it reaches operating temp., shut down and check for oil in the coolant. If you don't see any, start it up again and let it run a little longer. Periodically check the oil for milkiness, and shut down immediately if it starts to misfire like it did the last time OR if the oil turns to mayonnaise. You can also pull the plugs and check for a greenish tinge on them that would indicate burning antifreeze. As I said, a leakdown test, if you have a source of compressed air, can quickly help tell you if combustion pressure is leaking anywhere. I can walk you through the procedure if you decide to go this route and have never done one.

Sasquatch
04-06-04, 07:37 AM
Well :worship: lux hauler it looks like you hit it on the head. Changed the oil and filter 3 times. Changed and let run for 10 minutes or so. Drained, changed let run ten minutes or so changed. Did that another time and put fresh oil and a new filter again. Drove it around for a good 3 hours no problems.Even went out on the highway. Looks like I might have the easiest fix for a blown head gasket ever. (LOL) Obviously I'm joking and it was not a blown gasket at all. Stupid me let water get in through the front engine cover when I was flushing it out. Now that I don't have to spend the money for a new engine wonder if I can talk my wife into headers, dual exhaust and flowmasters? Check out these headers. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33631&item=2470952603 Will they work? What do you think? How about these? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=34203&item=2471242386 Thanks again for everyone's help and input. I think we can put this one in the history books. Keep your fingers crossed and say a prayer. I'll change that oil one more time in about a week. I'll send pictures.:bouncy:

Sasquatch
04-06-04, 10:39 AM
http://www.psychosasquatch.com/Sasquatch-Sighting.html Here's a picture of me and my hearse right after I got it going.

MMNineInchNails
04-06-04, 02:15 PM
Now that I don't have to spend the money for a new engine wonder if I can talk my wife into headers, dual exhaust and flowmasters? Check out these headers. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33631&item=2470952603 Will they work? What do you think? How about these? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=34203&item=2471242386 Thanks again for everyone's help and input. I think we can put this one in the history books. Keep your fingers crossed and say a prayer. I'll change that oil one more time in about a week. I'll send pictures.:bouncy:

Both those headers are the same thing. They're both block huggers. They just go straight down and not back like regular headers. They just shoot straight down to the ground.

lux hauler
04-06-04, 04:35 PM
Good deal!!!! Glad it wasn't anything more serious.
About those headers.....read this thread.
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10489

BTW.....I'm green with envy......I'd love to have a hearse side-loader......especially a '68, '69 or '70. Very cool car.:2thumbs:

Sasquatch
04-06-04, 10:01 PM
lux hauler checked the thread you recomended. So you're not in favor of headers? You thinking duals but stock manifold? Could be. Just asking around to see what people think. I come from the old school where headers were the "thing". Thanks for the compliment on the car. Going through it bit by bit. Today I removed the hydraulic pump for the leveling system. It had some pulley issues and it never quite lined up right. So I'm drilling some new holes in the mounting platform. Knew it needed to be done so today was the day. They used the second slot on the power steering pump pulley to drive it. When I add AC later that pulley slot is needed for the compressor so will have to figure something out. Maybe longer belt as long as I can get everything to line up. This is factory installed by Superior Coach who built these for Cadillac. It is a hydraulic system that allows you to shift the or level left and right so if you were on uneven ground at a grave site that the car could be leveled for casket removal. According to Superior this is one of only 116 that they manufactured. It is called a three way loader because there is an electric table inside and if you open the suicide doors and release the lever the table moves forward, turns, and comes out of the side of the car with the casket on it. You can see the coffin behind me in the picture. It's black so it's a little tuff to see.

lux hauler
04-23-04, 09:25 PM
Hmmmm.....I somehow missed your last post.

I'm not against headers. They can definitely help to make HP but on a stock or very mild motor being driven on the street as a daily driver they can be more hassle than they're worth. Exhaust manifolds require little (if any) maintenance. If you don't mind the extra maintenance, I say go for it.
I have a set of Hooker Comps that I'll have to modify for my truck. When I get them cut and welded to fit, I'll send them out to be coated. That way I won't have to worry about the rust issue. They'll go on eventually but I'll use the manifolds for the time being.
Remember, the carb may need a little adjustment after the freer-flowing exhaust is installed.