: How to defeat TC and maintain 1st gear



fubar569
05-03-07, 02:27 PM
1k-ohm resistors - radio shack part 271-1118 - comes in pack of 5 for 99 cents or so

insert one into the connector of each wheel speed sensor

tape up

done

and it really does work...i just laid down a good 20ft or so of rubber down the road from my house...both tires spin too...

mine is a 97 deville base model 275hp N* - so far no codes and no ABS light, etc...dash is clear as a whistle (for a few miles till it throws an O2 code...no cat converter) - i did this cause i am heading to the dragstrip tomorrow night and i am aiming for 14's with a good launch...car is trapping 93.6mph which is enough power with a good launch to get there...

total mods so far:

no cat
no resonator
no mufflers
TC defeat

this ALSO means that my relay box idea will work! however i am revising it and hope to have another workable example soon...

NOTE: THIS WILL ALSO DISABLE ANYTHING ELSE THAT RELIES ON WSS DATA TO PERFORM FUNCTIONS LIKE ABS, STABILITRAK, ETC!!! - SO USE AT YOUR OWN RISK!!

codewize
05-03-07, 03:18 PM
Why would you want to disable ALL of the safety features of you car with one swift move so you have the ability to destroy tires? I don't get it. Why why why do you people want to burn out so badly.

Races are won with traction NOT smoke shows.

CadillacSTS42005
05-03-07, 05:18 PM
yuh it will work on a base
but any car that has stabilitrak/mangasteer,
youll be in for a surprise...

fubar569
05-03-07, 07:08 PM
Why would you want to disable ALL of the safety features of you car with one swift move so you have the ability to destroy tires? I don't get it. Why why why do you people want to burn out so badly.

Races are won with traction NOT smoke shows.


this is true, however when you have an electronic nanny preventing you from leaving the line with any sort of power whatsoever it kinda negates that statement. i do not want to "destroy tires", but i do want to leave the line in this car the way i do in my C4...and that is with a head of steam...i always get my best times that way...

right now i cant even heat the tires because of the nanny...cant leave the line under any throttle or stall up the trans without tripping the TC...if i turn it off i lose 1st gear so there goes that idea...

for those of us whos cars see serious track time, this could be a godsend...

for those with magnasteer/stabilitrak/etc i would advise a relay setup so you can drive normally to the track and then activate the resistors with the flick of a switch then turn them off for the ride home...

i dont want to "burn out" all the time...i just want a faster time.....

jadcock
05-03-07, 07:50 PM
The TC only engages if you're spinning...which means you're already slowing down because of the tire slip. The best way to get a faster time would be to practice launching. Again, if the TC is slowing you down, it means you're overpowering the rubber, and disabling the TC is not the way to go faster. Launch practice is.

jadcock
05-03-07, 07:51 PM
yuh it will work on a base
but any car that has stabilitrak/mangasteer,
youll be in for a surprise...

This is commonly done on many cars with CV-RSS and StabiliTrak. You WILL lose the StabiliTrak functionality, obviously, but if done right, it won't throw any suspension codes.

codewize
05-03-07, 07:56 PM
That's what I was thinking. When I launch my car the TC never really kicks in. I guess it does because the DIC says so but it's not like my Brougham where there's no power while the TC is active.

The DTS seems to keep on pulling, just in a well organized fashion. If I launched the car without the TC active I think it would result in slower times. I could be wrong, I haven't had this car at the track, yet but that's what I would think.


The TC only engages if you're spinning...which means you're already slowing down because of the tire slip. The best way to get a faster time would be to practice launching. Again, if the TC is slowing you down, it means you're overpowering the rubber, and disabling the TC is not the way to go faster. Launch practice is.

chazglenn3
05-03-07, 08:06 PM
I just keep picturing the huge repair bill for the destroyed transmission/differential...

danbuc
05-03-07, 08:36 PM
This is commonly done on many cars with CV-RSS and StabiliTrak. You WILL lose the StabiliTrak functionality, obviously, but if done right, it won't throw any suspension codes.


You'll loose your speed sensitive power steering though. I tried this one night before I drove to Orlando Speedway. I had to pick a friend up in Kissimmee before hand. Once I got up to speed on the highway, I noticed the p/s was acting like I wasn't moving.....very, very touchy. It had no idea how fast the car was going. The slightest input would send the car off in one direction. Once I picked up my friend, I swung back to my apartment before hand and quickly pulled out the resistors before heading down to the track.

The ABS module isn't the only thing in the car that uses the WSS's. Just about everything short of the speedo, engine, and trans use them for one purpose or another.

Also, as codewize, and jadcock mentioned...the weak link at the track is not the T/C system. Disabling the T/C isn't going to gain you much unless you throw on a set of drag radials. Even then it probably won't make a difference. You've got to practice feathering the throttle off the line to minimize wheel spin. Everyone always wan't to just mash the pedal, but that how you end up with crappy 60ft times and low ET's. I've found that one of the best ways is when the light turns green (or the last yellow lamp goes out...better reaction times)..give it about 10% throttle. Once the car starts to move..bring it up to about 30%...then nail it. This all has to be done extremely quick, but it help prevent the tires from spinning too much. Your ramping up the power, which helps traction at lower speeds. The faster the car is moving, the less the wheels are going to want to spin since you've already go that little bit of forward momentum going.

dkozloski
05-03-07, 08:55 PM
If you have an STS with AWD it's all moot. The launch is brutal with NO wheelspin.

danbuc
05-03-07, 08:58 PM
If you have an STS with AWD it's all moot. The launch is brutal with NO wheelspin.

I bet that thing launches like a champ. It would be interesting to see what the 60ft times would be like...

codewize
05-03-07, 11:04 PM
This is pretty much the tactic I used for years of drag racing. I don't want to pat myself on the back but at one point I was getting phone calls from other racers asking me to drive their cars because my reaction times were almost non existent. Of course part of that is reading the tree.

Get the car moving just a bot and do a hard tip in NOT a peddle mash. This all happens quickly. We're not saying bring it up to 5 MPH or something we're just saying let it roll for a split second so the tires aren't stationary when you hit it.


Everyone always wan't to just mash the pedal, but that how you end up with crappy 60ft times and low ET's. I've found that one of the best ways is when the light turns green (or the last yellow lamp goes out...better reaction times)..give it about 10% throttle. Once the car starts to move..bring it up to about 30%...then nail it. This all has to be done extremely quick, but it help prevent the tires from spinning too much. Your ramping up the power, which helps traction at lower speeds. The faster the car is moving, the less the wheels are going to want to spin since you've already go that little bit of forward momentum going.

danbuc
05-05-07, 08:36 PM
My best reaction time to date is .064. The longest reactions time I get are around .5xx range. Usually my rt's are in the .150-.3 range. I don't get to the track enough to bring them down consistently, but I'm usually pretty good about not "sleeping at the light".

MonzaRacer
05-06-07, 05:50 AM
Well in actuality if you read more on the Corvettes and thier owners defeat switch you will find out that they actually get better runs with it off.
A friend of mine was told by a GM engineer that the 'Vette TC was adopted from Caddy so I wonder if something similar could be devised for the Caddy. Still use WSS for Magnasteer but confuse the EBCM (with out making bad lights come on).
To do it in new 'Vettes they HAD to add on a switch as the new ones have ETC rather than a throttle cable and the TC actually throttles down the engine.

MonzaRacer
05-06-07, 06:00 AM
Oh and just some people cant launch a car with out wheels spin the fact is that you also need to be able to control the engine if you race repeatedly.
As for a once in a while outing then this upgrade may not be for you.
As for what I would do would be 4 DPST micro relays and the resistors mounted on a board and a connector to add in somewhere in the harness and a single DPST switch hidden under dash or even with generic remote.
some doofuss hits stop light and decides to try and impress the "grandpa " caddy owner and you hit the switch and burn off into the distance at next light and his jaw drops as "grandpa" is smokin the hides.
If activated a stop it should not set a code and if even done with solidstate electronics could probably switch quick enough to not set a code rolling but who knows till they try.
If local car lot lets slightly damage Aurora go cheap as its old and high miles and has a 4.6 Caddy engine swapped in place of the blow 4.0 I may have a cool arunning car for a daily driver to try it on.

fubar569
05-06-07, 10:31 AM
Oh and just some people cant launch a car with out wheels spin the fact is that you also need to be able to control the engine if you race repeatedly.
As for a once in a while outing then this upgrade may not be for you.
As for what I would do would be 4 DPST micro relays and the resistors mounted on a board and a connector to add in somewhere in the harness and a single DPST switch hidden under dash or even with generic remote.
some doofuss hits stop light and decides to try and impress the "grandpa " caddy owner and you hit the switch and burn off into the distance at next light and his jaw drops as "grandpa" is smokin the hides.
If activated a stop it should not set a code and if even done with solidstate electronics could probably switch quick enough to not set a code rolling but who knows till they try.
If local car lot lets slightly damage Aurora go cheap as its old and high miles and has a 4.6 Caddy engine swapped in place of the blow 4.0 I may have a cool arunning car for a daily driver to try it on.


i have the unit that you describe finished...completely 100% finished (with harness) and ready to wire...however my plan was to tap into the wheel sensor wires individually at the EBTCM in the front of the car...that my friends is a complete pain in the nutsack...i tried and it's too tight to work unless you remove alot of things and i wanted to keep it as simple as possible...however before i totally dismiss it i will see how much room there is when i pull things ou to do the exhaust work and CAI/RAI.

one central box will work, but im thinking of re-wiring it yet again with 4 seperate connectors (one for each wheel) and wiring to go to each corner of the car. there is alot more room there (at each corner) than at the EBTCM. other option is 4 seperate relay modules mounted in each corner and all connected to a single power switch in the dash...

and i did not go to the dragstrip this weekend. i wound up with a job interview outof town on monday so the earliest i can try it wednesday when it's only 10 bucks to run...

i've been driving with the resistors in place all weekend however and my steering has seen zero negative effects...in fact i like it more with them in place (there is a difference)...i would advise anyone with a higher trim level to still approach with caution however...

AJxtcman
05-06-07, 11:39 AM
I see a Big part that you all have missed.

The time that the TC is controlling in Milliseconds along with the PCM in Milliseconds "MS".

My 12 second rocket has no TCS/ABS on it, but the PCM has Torque Management.
I have a 99 Seville based program and when it goes into Torque Management the amount of defeat in MS is sooooo long it is a joke. 2000 to 2004 or 5 is much less.
On the CTS if you slide out a driveway while turning the car. The TC will control the much better, but you can really feel it bog.

The intro of the CTS-V made a giant step. The way the system controls wheel spin is more simultaneously. As the wheels begins to grip it pours on the power and then reduces it in MS.
This system is on more caddy's now. CTS's, SRX's, STS's, XLR's and DTS's
.
My Rocket will shut off 4 cylinders if I build wheel speed too fast. The 4 cylinder will shut off for about 1 second. The 1 second feels like 3 seconds.
.
Torque Management
Torque Management is a function of the PCM that reduces engine power under certain conditions. Torque management is performed for three reasons:

• To prevent overstress of powertrain components.

• To limit engine power when brakes are applied.

• To prevent damage to the vehicle during certain abusive maneuvers.

The PCM uses manifold vacuum, intake air temperature, spark retard, engine speed, engine coolant temperature, A/C clutch status, and EGR valve position to calculate engine output torque. It then looks at torque converter status, transaxle gear ratio, and brake switch inputs and determines if any torque reduction is required. If torque reduction is required, the PCM retards spark as appropriate to reduce engine torque output. In the case of abusive maneuvers, the PCM may also shut off fuel to certain cylinders to reduce engine power.

There are five instances when engine power reduction is likely to be experienced

• During transaxle upshifts and downshifts.

• Heavy acceleration from a standing start.

• If brakes are applied with moderate to heavy throttle (input supplied by the Extended Travel Brake switch).

• When the driver is performing stress-inducing (abusive) maneuvers such as shifting into gear at high throttle angles.

In the first two instances, the driver is unlikely to even notice the torque management actions. In the other cases, engine power output will be moderate at full throttle.

When the PCM determines that engine power reduction is required, it calculates the amount of spark retard necessary to reduce power by the desired amount. This spark retard is then subtracted from the current spark advance. In the case of abusive maneuvers, the fuel injectors for cylinders 1, 4, 6, and 7 will also be disabled for a period of time.

Traction Control
Traction Control is a function of the PCM and the EBTCM that reduces front wheel slip during acceleration by applying the front brakes and reducing engine power. Refer to Brakes for an explanation of the EBTCMs role in traction control. The PCM continuously sends out a PWM signal that indicates the torque output of the powertrain. This signal, referred to as the Delivered Torque signal, is used by the EBTCM to determine what action is required when it sees the front wheels slipping. The EBTCM may decide to apply the front brakes only or apply the front brakes and request reduced torque output from the powertrain. The EBTCM requests reduced torque using another PWM signal. This signal, referred to as the Desired Torque signal, is used by the PCM to determine if the EBTCM is requesting reduced torque output from the powertrain. If the EBTCM requests reduced torque, the PCM will disable between one and seven fuel injectors to achieve this.

Desired Torque will normally be a 90 percent duty cycle signal to the PCM. When the EBTCM decides to request reduced engine power, it decreases the duty cycle of the Desired Torque signal by the amount of torque reduction required (90 percent duty cycle means no torque reduction, 10 percent duty cycle means 100 percent torque reduction). The PCM responds by shutting off fuel to one or more cylinders depending on the percent torque reduction requested. The PCM will not shut off any fuel injectors if any of the following conditions are present

• Coolant temperature is below -40°C (-40°F) or above 131°C (268°F).

• A low coolant level is present.

• Engine speed is below 600 rpm

The disabled fuel injectors will be re-enabled one by one as the need for traction control ends.

Several DTCs disable traction control when set. They will also trigger a TRACTION OFF light or message. The PCM traction control override also disables traction control and triggers the message. To diagnose a Traction Off light/message, diagnose any DTCs set first. Then check the traction control override and, if active, deactivate the override. If the TRACTION OFF light/message is still present, refer to Brakes for further diagnosis.
.
.
.
I have a PWM module at 90% and 128 Hertz. This can be attached the the Torque desired input to the PCM and hold the input to the PCM at 90%. 90% input is 100% in the PCM
.
I have not worked out the Torque Management out of the PCM. The module will defeat TCS Torque reduction completely and with a flip of the switch you are back to the stock setup.

You do not need to access the ABS/TCS module to connect it. It connects to the PCM.
.
Scoll to the bottum
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/078978-2.html
The LPE box will not work. It work on the PCM out put and LPE said it would work on the input, but it did not.

fubar569
05-06-07, 11:56 AM
I see a Big part that you all have missed.

The time that the TC is controlling in Milliseconds along with the PCM in Milliseconds "MS".

My 12 second rocket has no TCS/ABS on it, but the PCM has Torque Management.
I have a 99 Seville based program and when it goes into Torque Management the amount of defeat in MS is sooooo long it is a joke. 2000 to 2004 or 5 is much less.
On the CTS if you slide out a driveway while turning the car. The TC will control the much better, but you can really feel it bog.

The intro of the CTS-V made a giant step. The way the system controls wheel spin is more simultaneously. As the wheels begins to grip it pours on the power and then reduces it in MS.
This system is on more caddy's now. CTS's, SRX's, STS's, XLR's and DTS's

.
My Rocket will shut off 4 cylinders if I build wheel speed too fast. The 4 cylinder will shut off for about 1 second. The 1 second feels like 3 seconds.
.
Torque Management
Torque Management is a function of the PCM that reduces engine power under certain conditions. Torque management is performed for three reasons:

• To prevent overstress of powertrain components.

• To limit engine power when brakes are applied.

• To prevent damage to the vehicle during certain abusive maneuvers.

The PCM uses manifold vacuum, intake air temperature, spark retard, engine speed, engine coolant temperature, A/C clutch status, and EGR valve position to calculate engine output torque. It then looks at torque converter status, transaxle gear ratio, and brake switch inputs and determines if any torque reduction is required. If torque reduction is required, the PCM retards spark as appropriate to reduce engine torque output. In the case of abusive maneuvers, the PCM may also shut off fuel to certain cylinders to reduce engine power.

There are five instances when engine power reduction is likely to be experienced

• During transaxle upshifts and downshifts.

• Heavy acceleration from a standing start.

• If brakes are applied with moderate to heavy throttle (input supplied by the Extended Travel Brake switch).

• When the driver is performing stress-inducing (abusive) maneuvers such as shifting into gear at high throttle angles.

In the first two instances, the driver is unlikely to even notice the torque management actions. In the other cases, engine power output will be moderate at full throttle.

When the PCM determines that engine power reduction is required, it calculates the amount of spark retard necessary to reduce power by the desired amount. This spark retard is then subtracted from the current spark advance. In the case of abusive maneuvers, the fuel injectors for cylinders 1, 4, 6, and 7 will also be disabled for a period of time.

Traction Control
Traction Control is a function of the PCM and the EBTCM that reduces front wheel slip during acceleration by applying the front brakes and reducing engine power. Refer to Brakes for an explanation of the EBTCMs role in traction control. The PCM continuously sends out a PWM signal that indicates the torque output of the powertrain. This signal, referred to as the Delivered Torque signal, is used by the EBTCM to determine what action is required when it sees the front wheels slipping. The EBTCM may decide to apply the front brakes only or apply the front brakes and request reduced torque output from the powertrain. The EBTCM requests reduced torque using another PWM signal. This signal, referred to as the Desired Torque signal, is used by the PCM to determine if the EBTCM is requesting reduced torque output from the powertrain. If the EBTCM requests reduced torque, the PCM will disable between one and seven fuel injectors to achieve this.

Desired Torque will normally be a 90 percent duty cycle signal to the PCM. When the EBTCM decides to request reduced engine power, it decreases the duty cycle of the Desired Torque signal by the amount of torque reduction required (90 percent duty cycle means no torque reduction, 10 percent duty cycle means 100 percent torque reduction). The PCM responds by shutting off fuel to one or more cylinders depending on the percent torque reduction requested. The PCM will not shut off any fuel injectors if any of the following conditions are present

• Coolant temperature is below -40°C (-40°F) or above 131°C (268°F).

• A low coolant level is present.

• Engine speed is below 600 rpm

The disabled fuel injectors will be re-enabled one by one as the need for traction control ends.

Several DTCs disable traction control when set. They will also trigger a TRACTION OFF light or message. The PCM traction control override also disables traction control and triggers the message. To diagnose a Traction Off light/message, diagnose any DTCs set first. Then check the traction control override and, if active, deactivate the override. If the TRACTION OFF light/message is still present, refer to Brakes for further diagnosis.
.
.
.
I have a PWM module at 90% and 128 Hertz. This can be attached the the Torque desired input to the PCM and hold the input to the PCM at 90%. 90% input is 100% in the PCM
.
I have not worked out the Torque Management out of the PCM. The module will defeat TCS Torque reduction completely and with a flip of the switch you are back to the stock setup.

You do not need to access the ABS/TCS module to connect it. It connects to the PCM.
.
Scoll to the bottum
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/078978-2.html
The LPE box will not work. It work on the PCM out put and LPE said it would work on the input, but it did not.

incredible info! thanks muchly!

for everyone else with higher trim level cars i can see this being a substantial benefit as opposed to the resistor idea that worked so well on mine...

the LPE box wont work? why not? it is the same signal modulation correct?

if not...how much would you want to construct one that will work?

AJxtcman
05-06-07, 02:11 PM
My box is $150 includes shipping, wires, connectors, and instruction sheet

AJxtcman
05-06-07, 02:15 PM
LPE This work on the PCM output
On the 2006-2007 Trailblazer SS, the 2006-2007 Hummer H3 and several other GM vehicles, the ECM sends a delivered torque signal to the EBCM or EBTCM. If the output from the ECM exceeds the expected value, the EBTCM will disable Stability Control and will cause a warning message to display on the dash. High output engine upgrades, especially superchargers and turbochargers, can cause this to occur.

This device is designed to allow you to limit the delivered torque signal received by the EBTCM and solve this problem. This allows the stability control system to continue to function at these higher power levels and eliminates the annoying warning message on the dash.

This device will only work on vehicles that have a discreet delivered torque signal between the ECM and the EBTCM. On some vehicles, like the 2007 full size SUVs and trucks, the delivered torque signal between the ECM and the EBTCM is a part of the serial data communication signal between the ECM and the EBTCM. This device will not work in those types of applications.

99Classillac
05-09-07, 08:43 PM
My 99 Deville is a base deville, but in that year it came with stabilitrac and magnasteer. I know because I still have the original sales sticker from the caddy dealership, plus it's online.

fubar569
05-09-07, 11:46 PM
My 99 Deville is a base deville, but in that year it came with stabilitrac and magnasteer. I know because I still have the original sales sticker from the caddy dealership, plus it's online.

you would then want a PWM box similar to the LPE unit to keep the signal steady at 90%...this would eliminate the traction control and possibly stabilitrac (if it uses the discreet torque requested/torque delivered signals between EBTCM and PCM to reduce engine output during engagement) but magnasteer should be unaffected...

BlueMoon
05-10-07, 10:02 PM
What you ideally want to do is trick the PCM & TCM into thinking the car is accelerating as fast as the front wheels are turning. The computer is watching for wheel speed difference between the front and rear. So in theory, what you'd wanna do is send the front wheel speed pulses into the rear inputs. You could rig up a DPDT switch on the dash to tap the rear signal inputs off the front sensors. Input load and impedence would have to be addressed tho.

If you really wanted to get into it, you could rig a WOT switch to activate a DPDT relay instead. It would all be automatic and you'd be keeping all factory functionality.

Have never tried this, but in theory it Should work.

Anyone wanna give it a "spin"? (haha)

BM.