: Perhaps the full-sized flagship is not dead?



MachX
04-12-07, 01:15 AM
I wouldn't count our beloved american companies out yet. The smashing success of the Chrysler 300C points the way, if only Cadillac and Lincoln can follow the lead. Just because the goods aren't out RIGHT NOW doesn't mean that they aren't on the way. Now that GM and Ford have 'trimmed the fat', it means that their cashflow will allow for some exciting new investment in their product lines. Yes, the current DTS is front-drive, and yes it is falling behind in the premium horsepower war. But all rumours are pointing towards a new rear-drive replacement coming around 2010. I am quite sure that a new engine, possibly using some of the technology from the 469 hp 4.4 engine, would also be in the works. The fact that Lexus, and BMW offer 'L' versions of their flagship cars means that there is a market for sleek large rear drivers. Imagine a new rear drive DTS. One with a hood long enough for a possible V12 option? Even VW is making 12 cylinder powerplants, why not Cadillac? While Ford's panther platform will be put out to pasture in the next few years, new rumours are circulating that a new large rear drive platform will come from Australia, with the cars built in america. Maybe the Town Car ISNT dead? Ford is on a good path to redemption with some of its new products. The Fusion is hot. The MKZ is much improved with its 3.5L engine. The Mustang has a 'steed for every need', ranging up to 500hp. The 500/Montego are going to be renamed Taurus/Sable and equipped with the new 3.5L as well. There are also rumours of a Ford GT replacement named 'Cobra'. I say, if Lincoln can take that new australian platform, throw in a good V8 (no blown V6's need apply), and give it the sleek looks of the MKZ, it'll be a winner. And forget Town Car. Call it 'Continental'.

Blackout
04-12-07, 06:24 AM
Now that GM and Ford have 'trimmed the fat', it means that their cashflow will allow for some exciting new investment in their product lines. Yes, the current DTS is front-drive, and yes it is falling behind in the premium horsepower war. But all rumours are pointing towards a new rear-drive replacement coming around 2010.Actually for GM it's quite the opposite


http://news.windingroad.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/dsc_0007.gif (http://news.windingroad.com/governmentlegal/lutz-most-of-gm%e2%80%99s-rear-drive-future-%e2%80%9con-hold%e2%80%9d-due-to-possible-regulation-changes/)


WINDING ROADS | NEW YORK CITY - - According to an article in today?s Chicago Tribune, General Motor?s rear-drive initiative is in trouble. While the next Camaro is still moving forward, car czar Bob Lutz has indicated that ??anything after that is questionable or on the bubble.? That shocking bit of news means that the Chevrolet Impala, Monte Carlo, and even any Camaro derivatives (Pontiac Firebird, etc.) are all a big question mark. So too, is a replacement for Buick?s Lucerne, and a sub-CTS-sized Cadillac.
According to Lutz, the problem is?

?that company?s planned rear-drivers are all larger and heavier, which exacts a heavy toll on fuel economy. President George Bush?s new Corporate Average Fuel Economy standards, if enacted, would make it very tough for GM to be compliant with these new cars. Says Lutz: ?We don?t know how to get 30 percent better mileage? [from these cars]. Lutz says that GM will decide the fate of these models when the government figures out how to proceed on CO(-2) levels and updated CAFE standards.
Could this all be a bit of Lutzian theater, designed to discourage Washington from enacting tougher emissions and fuel-economy standards? Or are a good portion of GM?s future vehicles now well-and-truly on the ropes? Have your say in ?Comments.?

MachX
04-12-07, 12:44 PM
A rear drive DTS is still more feasible from stretching the current rear drive STS platform, than to continue using the old front driver, which has essentially been around since 1985. Hell I just looked it up, and the STS actually has an inch longer wheelbase than the current DTS, which makes it more than feasible for the next DTS flagship, although they may have to widen it an inch or two.

Blackout
04-12-07, 02:50 PM
A rear drive DTS is still more feasible from stretching the current rear drive STS platform, than to continue using the old front driver, which has essentially been around since 1985. Hell I just looked it up, and the STS actually has an inch longer wheelbase than the current DTS, which makes it more than feasible for the next DTS flagship, although they may have to widen it an inch or two.I personally don't think they will make the DTS RWD. Main reason being is that they want to keep the price down on it so keeping FWD will be able to accomplish that. I mean they could make it RWD but I just don't see it happening. But like that article I posted said basically only the Camaro will be GM's next RWD vehicle and all others are on hold

JimmyH
05-28-07, 04:00 PM
I don't see Cadillac changing the formula of the DTS in anyway. Not when they are selling the crap out of them. Here in Chicago anyway, I see more DTS's on the road than any other Cadillac. I even see more of them than Buicks.

I heard they are developing a new flagship though. Larger than the STS with V8 and V12 to compete with the Germans. It would be a low volume seller so I dont think it would impact GM's CAFE that much.

And as for Chysler 300, I am anxious to see the how the next gen plays now that Daimler has jumped ship. Due to CAFE, I bet they go back to fwd.

MachX
07-02-07, 01:06 AM
And why can't they make the necessary economy improvements? Remember the 4.5/4.9 engines that could barely get 11-13 mpg around town? With the Northstar, today's DTS is rated to get 20mpg. That is a 60% improvement, despite 300-400 extra pounds and almost no changes to the archaic 4 speed auto. With some more gears and technology, I don't think a similar improvement is impossible.

StealthCTSVJJL
07-02-07, 05:34 PM
Just for the record, STS and DTS sales are down almost 18%, the XLR is not doing well at all, right now Caddy depends on the CTS, SRX and the Escalades for big sales numbers. That said they need to freshen both of these slow movers but I am not sure the DTS-L is the way to go with a mediocre front drive chassis, and although the refreshed '08 STS looks better, the 320 hp northstar just can't compete with the 550i, e500, and even the Audi A6 4.2. The interior also needs an upgrade big time.
Caddy needs a real S class challenger, and get rid of the DTS altogether along with the hip replacement crowd that keeps Cadillac from becoming a truly hip choice.

JimmyH
07-02-07, 06:04 PM
I dont think Caddy is going to beat BMW or Mercedes. Their buyers, and the press, are to biased in favor of the Germans. So screw em I say, and I think that is what Cadillac has been thinking too.

Keep making the CTS and SRX better. And bring an awesome BTS here too. And make the Slade more fuel efficient. That's the way to keep making money. Not on low volume 7 series and S class crap. (and both those cars are crap boxes)

MachX
07-02-07, 09:35 PM
and get rid of the DTS altogether along with the hip replacement crowd that keeps Cadillac from becoming a truly hip choice.
I don't think I ever want to be in a 'hip' Cadillac. Were that the case, I would be encouraging them to build accord/camry/fusion clones. I want a luxury cruiser that is stylish, contemporary, and classic. Why is it that suddenly a full sized DTS/Town Car is something to be scorned? I get so tired of CTS fanboys who jump on the Cadillac bandwagon telling the rest of the world what a Cadillac 'should' be, when these cars have been around for less than 5 years! The DTS/Deville/Fleetwood/60 series built Cadillac, not the CTS. The Town Car/Continental built Lincoln, not the Zephyr/MKZ, nice as those cars are. Am I the only one who thinks Lincoln missed the boat by not building this:
32514
It's large, yet modern and classy, with shortened overhangs, but still great proportion. THIS is what a luxury car should be.....
I also want to add that it seems that only Lincoln/Cadillac are afraid/embarrased of their heritage for building large classy machines. I don't see Rolls Royce building anything other than a Rolls Royce. Mercedes Benz has added a whole lineup of smaller cars, but have not neglected the large S Class as being the ultimate Benz.

z06bigbird
07-02-07, 10:29 PM
This may or may not be related to the above discussion. Here goes.

1996 was the last for the Fleecewood Brougham. Those cars with extremely low miles (20k) bring $6k to $10k. Ain't many left.

A 1997 black/black SDV with 1,000 (correct) miles sold at the Little Rock CoPart auction for $14k. Theft recovery, it needed a dash and radio and side window.

2005 was the last year that Buick made the LeSabre and Park Avenue. New buyers (old fogeys) do not like the LaCrosse and Lucerne. Few people are trading them in.

Again, a LeSabre with low miles will bring top $$.

There is a shortage of large Buicks right now, and people know it.

I doubt that Caddy will increase the hp of its cars in the long run. I think the gov will clamp down like they did 30 years ago.

Who knows what will happen?