: 2003 Bmw M5 E39



2002BlueWS6
04-11-07, 01:21 PM
I have searched and searched and cannot find anything on the CTSV vs the E39 M5 (not the new new one). Has anyone here raced an E39 M5 or seen a video?

These cars are so well matched in terms of power and weight. The M5 has 3.15s and runs 13.1s stock and sub 5 sec 0-60, low 11s to 100 which is right on par with the V which has 3.73s. The V makes torque sooner and has lower gears. What gives?

Here is an M5 with exhaust and reflash racing an RS4 ( 12.7s ) .....
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/08840e9b-f93b-4d38-b8ad-984f010d4330.htm Not sure how he pulls that hard....

So what do you guys think? Looks like a drivers race in the 1/4 but what about real world say 20mph-120mph? Someone here must have run into one at some point. I want to know who won! Lets here your thoughts! M5 or V?

thebigjimsho
04-11-07, 01:59 PM
From 40-110, I pulled about 1.5 lengths on 1. It was stock vs stock. I knew the owner.

2002BlueWS6
04-11-07, 02:09 PM
wow that seems like a lot! did he know how to drive? I would think it would be pretty even, 1.5 cars is pulling pretty hard .... keep em comin'

Seattle CTS-V
04-11-07, 02:23 PM
I've only raced one at the wknd drags...but I wasn't stock. I think I beat him by no less than 10 car lengths. The guy was such a tool.

04CTSVFLA
04-11-07, 02:26 PM
ive driven one, doesnt seem nearly as powerful (torquey) as the V.

rand49er
04-11-07, 02:27 PM
Was that toysnot?

Blackout
04-11-07, 02:41 PM
stock for stock I would think it would be a drivers race. Once you get past the 1/4 mile though I would think the CTS-V would be able to take it pretty easily. The M series was never about being the fastest in a straight line. They cared more about it's handling then it's acceleration performance

2002BlueWS6
04-11-07, 02:42 PM
Moderators... is it really necessary to move these threads to the versus? Once they are moved no one see them as not many V owners visit that area IMHO! I have an idea, how about all versus that have to do with a CTSV stay in the CTSV department!? :stirpot:

You guys could at least give them a few days of internet traffic.... :mad:

2002BlueWS6
04-11-07, 02:44 PM
stock for stock I would think it would be a drivers race. Once you get past the 1/4 mile though I would think the CTS-V would be able to take it pretty easily. The M series was never about being the fastest in a straight line. They cared more about it's handling then it's acceleration performance

did you see that video versus the RS4 though? the M5 pulled like crazy... and my understanding is that with higher gears 3.15s (than our 3.73s) the M would favor on top end accelaration no?...

Seattle CTS-V
04-11-07, 04:23 PM
I thought the M5 trapped 106mph in the 1/4 and the RS4 about 110mph. Can't see how the M5 would pull anything if these numbers are true...unless the RS4 forgot to downshift.

Blackout
04-12-07, 05:17 AM
did you see that video versus the RS4 though? the M5 pulled like crazy... and my understanding is that with higher gears 3.15s (than our 3.73s) the M would favor on top end accelaration no?...The RS4 is AWD so AWD vehicles don't have as good of top end due to the power lost through the tranny. I'm sure out of the hole the RS4 probably would beat the M5 but once they got going I'm sure the M5 would be able to catch it but at the same time who cares what a cars top speed is. I don't see too many people racing to see who has the better top end

Deuuuce
04-12-07, 02:31 PM
Back when C&D tested an E39 M5, it ran to 150mph in 30.0 seconds. In comparison, a 300 SRT-8 clocked 30.6 seconds and a C5 6M 30.2 I believe. The M5 has some great top-end power and gearing. After 120mph, it's a 1:1 4th gear for the SRT-8. What about the CTS-V?

2002BlueWS6
04-14-07, 02:28 PM
Yeah the 3.15s on the M5 make me worry a little for 100+. Given the lower gearing of the V and similar power to weight ratios its surprising that they both go 13.1 or so through the quarter. What did the V do 0-150?

My buddy just bought an M5 and it will arrive here in San Diego on Wed. We are going to race them from every which way. Neither of us want to lose. Probably going to start 50-120.... wish me luck! I will post results...

thebigjimsho
04-15-07, 07:28 PM
stock for stock I would think it would be a drivers race. Once you get past the 1/4 mile though I would think the CTS-V would be able to take it pretty easily. The M series was never about being the fastest in a straight line. They cared more about it's handling then it's acceleration performanceKinda like the V, no?

Anyway, the guy I raced is an SHO guy and currently owns both. I was actually surprised that I pulled that much.

2002BlueWS6
06-03-07, 01:56 PM
Ok guys well I finally found my race. My buddy has had his E39 M5 for a few weeks now and we ran them yesterday four times. First was from 50-140 and then from 20-70 and 30-70 and then off the line. The V pulled everytime. On the 50-140 I had about 2 car lengths and was still pulling away.

Anways thought I would share this. I have been pondering this race for a while now. I figured I would win but didnt realize I would keep pulling even at 130 so Im pretty happy. Ive driven the M5 and its real fast. Anyways...

Deuuuce
06-04-07, 09:27 AM
Ok guys well I finally found my race. My buddy has had his E39 M5 for a few weeks now and we ran them yesterday four times. First was from 50-140 and then from 20-70 and 30-70 and then off the line. The V pulled everytime. On the 50-140 I had about 2 car lengths and was still pulling away.

Anways thought I would share this. I have been pondering this race for a while now. I figured I would win but didnt realize I would keep pulling even at 130 so Im pretty happy. Ive driven the M5 and its real fast. Anyways...

Does he have any track experience? With 108-110mph trap speeds, I'm surprised you pulled every time, consistently.

Especially the run to 140mph. What speed do you shift to 4th? He should have walked you after that.

thebigjimsho
06-04-07, 07:35 PM
Does he have any track experience? With 108-110mph trap speeds, I'm surprised you pulled every time, consistently.

Especially the run to 140mph. What speed do you shift to 4th? He should have walked you after that.The V is faster than the E39, all day, every day...

2002BlueWS6
06-04-07, 08:20 PM
Does he have any track experience? With 108-110mph trap speeds, I'm surprised you pulled every time, consistently.

Especially the run to 140mph. What speed do you shift to 4th? He should have walked you after that.

Yeah he does have about 5 track days under his belt, while I have never made a pass at the track. He is as good of a driver as me if not better. I dont remember exactly what speed I shifted to 4th but it was right at redline so 90 maybe? not sure... once I hit forth I was still noticeably pulling away. He even mentioned how he thought he would come back on me but it just got worse for him. Ive driven his M5... its real real fast, especially on top but we ran 4 times and all of them were legit. I suppose if I didnt have headers or EFI it would have been closer but the V would have likely still pulled at least a half car or more.

Deuuuce
06-05-07, 09:41 AM
Yeah he does have about 5 track days under his belt, while I have never made a pass at the track. He is as good of a driver as me if not better. I dont remember exactly what speed I shifted to 4th but it was right at redline so 90 maybe? not sure... once I hit forth I was still noticeably pulling away. He even mentioned how he thought he would come back on me but it just got worse for him. Ive driven his M5... its real real fast, especially on top but we ran 4 times and all of them were legit. I suppose if I didnt have headers or EFI it would have been closer but the V would have likely still pulled at least a half car or more.

I thought you were stock. That's all the difference. Stock vs. Stock above 100mph it would pull on a CTS-V and no contest once the V hits 4th.

There are a couple of minor tuning tips/cleaning for the E39 M5, I wonder if his is a bit slow.

thebigjimsho
06-05-07, 10:52 AM
I thought you were stock. That's all the difference. Stock vs. Stock above 100mph it would pull on a CTS-V and no contest once the V hits 4th.

There are a couple of minor tuning tips/cleaning for the E39 M5, I wonder if his is a bit slow.The V's torque curve and gearing would contradict that statement. My run with a 2002 E39 showed no catching up and that was stock/stock. I was still pulling on him when we hit 110, well into 4th gear...

2002BlueWS6
06-05-07, 09:51 PM
I thought you were stock. That's all the difference. Stock vs. Stock above 100mph it would pull on a CTS-V and no contest once the V hits 4th.

There are a couple of minor tuning tips/cleaning for the E39 M5, I wonder if his is a bit slow.

Not really sure about that. I pulled pretty hard. Headers and tune will give me a slight advantage over a stock V but not that much..... I have to imagine if I was stock I would have still pulled, just to a lesser extent.

His car is real clean and he reads up on all the forums in effort to have that thing run how it should. He updated a bunch of stuff including the MAFs which are suppose to be the main source of power loss and just replaced the clutch as well. He said he runs faster than the others he has driven also.

Not to discredit the M5, because I love the car, but the V is clearly the faster car, and not surprisingly even moreso when slightly modded.

Deuuuce
06-06-07, 08:42 AM
Not really sure about that. I pulled pretty hard. Headers and tune will give me a slight advantage over a stock V but not that much..... I have to imagine if I was stock I would have still pulled, just to a lesser extent.

His car is real clean and he reads up on all the forums in effort to have that thing run how it should. He updated a bunch of stuff including the MAFs which are suppose to be the main source of power loss and just replaced the clutch as well. He said he runs faster than the others he has driven also.

Not to discredit the M5, because I love the car, but the V is clearly the faster car, and not surprisingly even moreso when slightly modded.

Yep, that is what I was referring to. I would think headers and tune would be EXACTLY for a run like that. You must have a factory freak because once you hit your 4th gear (1:1 ratio, correct?) It should have been all over for you. They hit 150mph about .6 seconds faster than an SRT-8 which doesn't hit 4th until 120mph. The gearing is superior and they have better high-rpm breathing.

thebigjimsho
06-07-07, 08:24 AM
Yep, that is what I was referring to. I would think headers and tune would be EXACTLY for a run like that. You must have a factory freak because once you hit your 4th gear (1:1 ratio, correct?) It should have been all over for you. They hit 150mph about .6 seconds faster than an SRT-8 which doesn't hit 4th until 120mph. The gearing is superior and they have better high-rpm breathing.The V has a 3.73 final drive ratio. Here's the gearing...

Gear/Ratio
1st-2.97:1
2nd-2.07:1
3rd-1.43:1
4th-1.00:1
5th-0.84:1
6th-0.56:1

As far as better breathing, have you seen the torque curve on the LS6/2 engines? The V does not run out of breath.

Kadonny
06-07-07, 08:36 AM
I got spanked by one in my CTS-V last summer on a long winding ride home from work. E39 M5 with a BMW driving instructor behind the wheel. Not too shabby I guess, I had him in the straights, he spanked me in the corners. His car turned like on rails.

Seattle CTS-V
06-28-07, 05:39 PM
Does he have any track experience? With 108-110mph trap speeds, I'm surprised you pulled every time, consistently.

Especially the run to 140mph. What speed do you shift to 4th? He should have walked you after that.


E39 M5's do not trap 108-110mph. More like 105-106mph. Hell, last time I was at the drags a new E60's best trap was only 111mph. Most of his runs were 110mph. And don't tell me the guy couldn't drive cuz it's a damn SMG.

Deuuuce
06-29-07, 09:46 AM
E39 M5's do not trap 108-110mph. More like 105-106mph. Hell, last time I was at the drags a new E60's best trap was only 111mph. Most of his runs were 110mph. And don't tell me the guy couldn't drive cuz it's a damn SMG.

Uh huh. They do, that's why they pull on E46 M3s and run even with SRT-8s. And your singular example in no way represents an E60, either.

What a race from a roll eliminates is the other factors that make for bad runs at a dragstrip: the launch and heat soak.

The M5 in question from the post may have needed a notoriously hp-robbing intake cleaning specific to that model. Regardless, once in 4th, it should have been over for the CTS-v.

thebigjimsho
06-29-07, 11:24 AM
Uh huh. They do, that's why they pull on E46 M3s and run even with SRT-8s. And your singular example in no way represents an E60, either.

What a race from a roll eliminates is the other factors that make for bad runs at a dragstrip: the launch and heat soak.

The M5 in question from the post may have needed a notoriously hp-robbing intake cleaning specific to that model. Regardless, once in 4th, it should have been over for the CTS-v.What can you not understand? Yes the M5 has quicker gearing in 4th. But you totally ignore a simple fact. The V has a 3.73 final drive ratio. What does the M5 have? Guess what? It's much taller. The V walks the M5 in 4th. Deal with it.

I'VE DONE IT PERSONALLY. Stock for stock. Game over.

thebigjimsho
06-29-07, 11:26 AM
E39 M5's do not trap 108-110mph. More like 105-106mph. Hell, last time I was at the drags a new E60's best trap was only 111mph. Most of his runs were 110mph. And don't tell me the guy couldn't drive cuz it's a damn SMG.Don't sweat this guy, Seattle. He is an internet bench racer and he doesn't even have his numbers straight.

Deuuuce
06-30-07, 12:28 PM
What can you not understand? Yes the M5 has quicker gearing in 4th. But you totally ignore a simple fact. The V has a 3.73 final drive ratio. What does the M5 have? Guess what? It's much taller. The V walks the M5 in 4th. Deal with it.

I'VE DONE IT PERSONALLY. Stock for stock. Game over.

Gears don't determine the outcome, hence similar trap speeds. What speed is the top of 4th? Game over in 5th, too.

thebigjimsho
06-30-07, 01:03 PM
Gears don't determine the outcome, hence similar trap speeds. What speed is the top of 4th? Game over in 5th, too.You have no clue what you're talking about. I'm not going to waste any more time because you can't understand the simplest of things. If you can't understand that the transmission's gearing is coupled with the final drive ratio then applied with power to give you speed, then you have no hope. None.

thebigjimsho
06-30-07, 01:05 PM
Just to be thorough, I had a stock V. I raced a friend with a stock 2002 M5. And from 40-110, I pulled a car length and was still pulling...IN 4TH GEAR. Game over.

CTSV_Rob
06-30-07, 02:25 PM
Why doesn't this guy just buy an M5 then go to their forum? He is just trying to convince himself that's the car he wants and will not listen to simple logic and real experiences.

Buy the M5, Get spanked by a Stock V, go and get your intake cleaned then get beat by a V again.

The funny part is if he does get one and he loses a race, that's how he will justify it. "The V must be modified, their is no way he could have beat me!"

Too Fun:histeric:

04CTSVFLA
06-30-07, 02:57 PM
deuuuce your starting to look and smell like a deuuuce.....I guess you are what you eat....lol....

Ill will race any stock e39 m5 from a 20 mph roll for pink slips any day of the week.....Ive driven them, Ive raced them. They just arent as quick, plain and simple

I found out some very interesting e39 info. They changed the cards liters/hp/weight almost every year. So it really matters what year you run into. I got this info all from the same site. But someone might want to double check, bc that last #'s seem really weak.

4.7 seconds.
1/4 Mile 13.2 @ 107.4 MPH seconds.
Top Speed 155 mph
4.4 L.
400.00 HP
395.00 Ft-Lbs
5 speed

99 e39
3450 lbs
4.9 seconds.
1/4 mile - ??
top speed 157
4.9 L.
400
369
5 speed

00 e39
4000 lbs
4.9 seconds
1/4 ??
top seed 155
4.9 L
394
368
6 speed

what happened here????
01 e39
3484
?
?
4.0 liters
282
295
5 speed

V
400/395 - 5.7 liter
3847 lbs
0-60 4.6 seconds
1/4 miles 13.1

wildwhl
06-30-07, 02:58 PM
Gents -

I have many, many hours when my V was stock against my buddy's 2000 M5 (mostlty twisty, but plenty of straight stuff too) and now modified as I am against his new (1 year old) M5.

In both cases, the V wins everytime, even when we swap cars.

Internet bench race all day if want, deucche, but facts are facts.

WW

A1beshouri
06-30-07, 03:05 PM
a buddy of mine has a 2002 we used to race quite a bit because we ran into eachother all the time, He didnt win once( I have an 06 V)

Deuuuce
06-30-07, 05:40 PM
So I must amend my statement to say once in 5th, it's definitely over. But it within the variance of both. 3.73 gears also mean reaching 5th sooner. I was simply surprised by the outcome. Shifting can easily make that much difference alone.

If any of you actually watched the repeated runs of an M5 vs. an SRT-8 on the boards it was close, very close. And I'm sure you don't all pull on SRT-8s, either. Your top end is in the low 160s, isn't it?

As far as internet bench racing, I've raced on 7 dragstrips in 5 states in over 22 years and the internet just enhances it all.

Deuuuce
06-30-07, 05:41 PM
You have no clue what you're talking about. I'm not going to waste any more time because you can't understand the simplest of things. If you can't understand that the transmission's gearing is coupled with the final drive ratio then applied with power to give you speed, then you have no hope. None.

True colors are really starting to show here, aren't they? Nice job, everyone. Just publish the top speed in 4th and 5th and be done with it, okay? :bigroll:

StealthViggen
06-30-07, 06:49 PM
I think you might be confused as to what exactly you are trying to prove. If both cars were limited to staying in 4th gear, then the the M5 would have more RPM overhead, couple with lower gearing, thus could attain a higher top speed in that specific gear. But you know what magically occurs in a CTS-V when you hit top RPM in 4th>>>>? You shift to 5th and keep accelerating! Transmission ratio is multiplied by the final drive, so the V is still pulling hard in 5th, and decently in 6th. I have raced an M5 from 80 to about 200KM and I pulled 2 cars hard, and stayed that way untill 200km. I also molested both an M5 and S4 from a 5 KM roll. 4+ cars on the S4 in about 10 seconds and 3 on the M5.

thebigjimsho
06-30-07, 07:10 PM
True colors are really starting to show here, aren't they? Nice job, everyone. Just publish the top speed in 4th and 5th and be done with it, okay? :bigroll:And if you gave the V 800hp, it could redline the ultratall 6th gear at like 190mph. But you need power to get there.

I don't know if the BMW can get a higher top speed in each gear or not, but it doesn't get there faster than the V. Someone with as much "experience" as you should know that.

z06bigbird
06-30-07, 07:41 PM
Moderators are looking for a calendar with a countdown!!

You are all going to be in big do-doo.

LOL

Deuuuce
06-30-07, 08:17 PM
And if you gave the V 800hp, it could redline the ultratall 6th gear at like 190mph. But you need power to get there.

I don't know if the BMW can get a higher top speed in each gear or not, but it doesn't get there faster than the V. Someone with as much "experience" as you should know that.

And fifth is an OD, correct? When is the shift to 5th? If the answer to the first question is yes, the speed in the 2nd question is when the M5 will pull. If you're making a blanket statement about CTS-Vs beating M5s, then include the C5 6M and SRT-8 while you're at it. And how many trap at 110mph stock?

My entire point which seems to have gone way over your head, is the cars are about as close as you can get and even in 4th at 1:1, the M5 is NOT in a 1:1 ratio and once in an OD 5th, it's over. The M5 unrestricted can hit approx. 180mph.

thebigjimsho
06-30-07, 09:06 PM
And fifth is an OD, correct? When is the shift to 5th? If the answer to the first question is yes, the speed in the 2nd question is when the M5 will pull. If you're making a blanket statement about CTS-Vs beating M5s, then include the C5 6M and SRT-8 while you're at it. And how many trap at 110mph stock?

My entire point which seems to have gone way over your head, is the cars are about as close as you can get and even in 4th at 1:1, the M5 is NOT in a 1:1 ratio and once in an OD 5th, it's over. The M5 unrestricted can hit approx. 180mph.No, 5th is not an OD, 6th is however. The V goes like a bat out of hell to 161 in 5th gear. 6th is too tall to accelerate with 400hp.

I'd say personal experience with me in my stock V against a stock 2002 M5, both good drivers(again, I knew the BMW owner), and the V winning is NOT a blanket statement. Why you can't just accept being wrong is beyond me.

Deuuuce
06-30-07, 09:14 PM
Is 5th 1:1? How exactly am I wrong, exactly?

Deuuuce
06-30-07, 11:19 PM
Don't bother. 4th is 1:1, 5th is .84 which IS an OD gear. 6th is .56.

The M5 is a 1:00 5th, 6th is .83.

The advantage of the 3:73 rear isn't so definitive when 1st for the M5 has a 4.23 1st gear ratio, the CTS-V a 2.97. Top gear 30-50 and 50-70mph roll-on has the M5 quicker by 2 and 3 seconds respectively.

4th gear redline is 135mph, 5th at redline is the top speed, 161.

Both have to shift into 5th at 134-135mph. Thats where the gearing and aerodynamics come into play, the M5 is in a 1:1 gear.

Interestingly, also from C&D, the CSRT-8 hit 120mph in 15.9 seconds, the CTS-V at 16.0. Definitely a drivers race and possible edge to the CTS-V if powershifted.

Very close competitors.

mdc
07-01-07, 10:02 AM
At which point are you going to accept that looking at a bunch of numbers will not determine the race

There have been 4 different posts in this thread have have disputed your theories and you still persist

If all anyone cared about were some stupid numbers, there would be no point in racing. The difference here is that a bunch of people have actually left their desk, started the car and PROVED that they could do it. You sit at your desk, crunch numbers and prove NOTHING

See the difference?

mdc
07-01-07, 10:04 AM
Interestingly, also from C&D, the CSRT-8 hit 120mph in 15.9 seconds, the CTS-V at 16.0. Definitely a drivers race and possible edge to the CTS-V if powershifted.

and BTW, stop taking what C&D, R&T and MT report as fact. All of those magazines have a formula to compensate for weather conditions and location. Most of their "test results" look nothing like what they actually run

Again, you can't prove anything on paper ... but you can easily prove something an asphalt. Get out of your chair and into the driver's seat

Deuuuce
07-01-07, 02:16 PM
Nice rant.

I wrote I surprised by the outcome when it's obviously a driver's race. How many are going to post they lost to an M5 once they hit 135mph anyway? It's obviously a drivers race.

I posted the facts, if you can't understand the numbers, than go race one yourself at from a roll at 120mph and see what happens.

The formula is used for quarter mile results only but we're not debating that now, are we?

And your absolutely wrong about the test results. It's what 95% of the owners can expect without drag prep, a decent launch, practice not speedshifting. Real world results prove that. If they were so wrong, how come stock CTS-Vs are not running 12s or hitting 110mph traps? Huh?

Take 2 identical Vs, change the gearing on one of them to the M5s ratios. Once in the OD gear, the race is over. No one hear posted results of racing past 135mph after I amended my statement, now did they?

thebigjimsho
07-01-07, 02:50 PM
If they were so wrong, how come stock CTS-Vs are not running 12s or hitting 110mph traps? Huh?

Take 2 identical Vs, change the gearing on one of them to the M5s ratios. Once in the OD gear, the race is over. No one hear posted results of racing past 135mph after I amended my statement, now did they?Some Vs have hit 12s. The reason it's rare is blamed on one thing: vicious wheel hop. It certainly has the ability to hit high 12s at well over 110mph.

The V has the torque to hit 150 before the M5 does. As for noone posting results of racing past 135, maybe noone has actually done it. If you're going to use your hypothetical as saving face, that's pretty pathetic.

"Uh, yeah, like the V may totally take the M5 to like 135 but from like 135 to 150, the M5 like totally comes back, man. Totally. Like, yeah."

Funny.

thebigjimsho
07-01-07, 03:03 PM
And now, since the M5 is limited to 155mph, you've got 20mph to makeup a few carlengths. And the V's 3.73 final drive ratio is going to keep the M5 from doing that. Again, a transmission's gear depend on the differential's final drive ratio to get power to the ground.

One's gear may change from 1-6, but the final drive is always there to influence the outcome. And the V has more useable torque.

urbanski
07-01-07, 04:10 PM
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/157/messageboardsyh4.gif (http://imageshack.us)

nikon
07-01-07, 09:30 PM
^^ :histeric:

Deuuuce
07-02-07, 09:11 AM
And now, since the M5 is limited to 155mph, you've got 20mph to makeup a few carlengths. And the V's 3.73 final drive ratio is going to keep the M5 from doing that. Again, a transmission's gear depend on the differential's final drive ratio to get power to the ground.

One's gear may change from 1-6, but the final drive is always there to influence the outcome. And the V has more useable torque.

You're right, absolutely right. Transmission ratios and aerodynamics make no play, I never did amend my statement to 5th, an OD gear, torque makes all the difference at high speed and 6600rpm power peak can't possibly have an influence. My bad. Thank you for being so understanding. :worship:

04CTSVFLA
07-02-07, 12:38 PM
meow meow meow meow....meow meow meow meow.....meow mix meow mix please dellllllivver.. THIS THREAD IS GIBBBBBBBERRRIIIISHHHHHHHH

Deuuuce your unfounded assinine bench racing comments hold zero value to this community. Several people including I, have outran e39's like it's a career.

Go drop a deuce, and with the higher thought to weight ratio after you take that deuce you may come up with some more ingenious comments.....have you ever even driven, been in, or seen for that matter, an e39 m5 or a V...and no not on project gotham racing.....that doesnt count.

MWD
07-02-07, 03:49 PM
What can you not understand? Yes the M5 has quicker gearing in 4th. But you totally ignore a simple fact. The V has a 3.73 final drive ratio. What does the M5 have? Guess what? It's much taller. The V walks the M5 in 4th. Deal with it.

I'VE DONE IT PERSONALLY. Stock for stock. Game over.

The V is going to have an advantage in 4th vs. the E39 M5, because more hp. is getting through the V gearbox at 1:1, vs. the M5 at non 1:1 4th. With 1:1, there is technically no gearing, i.e. there is no loss from transerring power via gear mesh across to the secondary shaft and back across another gearmesh. Not a huge difference, but definitely some, and since gearing loss is typically a percentage, the more hp, the more gear loss.

Michael

MWD
07-02-07, 04:28 PM
My entire point which seems to have gone way over your head, is the cars are about as close as you can get and even in 4th at 1:1, the M5 is NOT in a 1:1 ratio and once in an OD 5th, it's over. The M5 unrestricted can hit approx. 180mph.

Slipperiness plays BIG dividends above 160mph, so the M5 with roughly equal (or slightly less hp) and better aerodynamics can hit a higher top speed. The V isn't really geared to match the peak hp. with air resistance for top speed.

Honestly though, things are flying by fast at 170, so I would willingly secede the top speed bragging rights. I don't really want to be cruising along at 170 in a stock V or M5, as there isn't enough crash protection for my comfort.

Michael

Deuuuce
07-02-07, 06:27 PM
The V is going to have an advantage in 4th vs. the E39 M5, because more hp. is getting through the V gearbox at 1:1, vs. the M5 at non 1:1 4th. With 1:1, there is technically no gearing, i.e. there is no loss from transerring power via gear mesh across to the secondary shaft and back across another gearmesh. Not a huge difference, but definitely some, and since gearing loss is typically a percentage, the more hp, the more gear loss.

Michael

Thank you, a mature voice able to conduct a technical discussion without bashing. It's like little kids yelling in the background.

The question is 5th gear, which starts at 135mph for both cars. The V now in an OD gear, the M5 at 1:1 which is 5th.

StealthCTSVJJL
07-03-07, 11:35 AM
You still don't get it, the V in 5th has a 0.85 I believe od, which with a 3.73 diff works out to 3.58 overall gearing, still lower (numerically higher) gearing than the M5, so the V will still have superior torque multiplication in that particular gear also. Unfortunately car magazines don't test 0-150 acceleration so there are no reference guides. This is all speculation, even the above reference to the M5 having better aerodynamics. There is only one way to find out, and I have no idea where you would conduct such a test, without risking jail time and lives (which is why magazines don't test more than 0-130 on a regular basis). My suggestion would be to live in reality: the 70-120 spurts in a momentarily open highway which is extremely rare these days, and where the V will walk the old V8 M5, been there done that!

thebigjimsho
07-03-07, 12:55 PM
Plus, at 135, the V has at least a couple lengths already. IF the gearing allows the BMW to gain, it doesn't have enough time.

thebigjimsho
07-03-07, 01:47 PM
edit...

Deuuuce
07-03-07, 06:46 PM
You still don't get it, the V in 5th has a 0.85 I believe od, which with a 3.73 diff works out to 3.58 overall gearing, still lower (numerically higher) gearing than the M5, so the V will still have superior torque multiplication in that particular gear also. Unfortunately car magazines don't test 0-150 acceleration so there are no reference guides. This is all speculation, even the above reference to the M5 having better aerodynamics. There is only one way to find out, and I have no idea where you would conduct such a test, without risking jail time and lives (which is why magazines don't test more than 0-130 on a regular basis). My suggestion would be to live in reality: the 70-120 spurts in a momentarily open highway which is extremely rare these days, and where the V will walk the old V8 M5, been there done that!

That I understand, I appreciate you explaining that.

Actually C&D still tests to 150mph but didn't w/ the V for some reason.

MWD
07-05-07, 02:44 PM
The effective final gearing comparison.

CTS-V:
3rd 5.3339:1
4th 3.73:1
5th 3.133:1
6th 2.088:1

E39 M5:
3rd 5.103:1
4th 3.8745:1
5th 3.15:1
6th 2.6145:1

Notice that the M5 has much closer gear ratios (5.1 to 2.6) versus the V's wider (5.3 to 2.1) range, so for raw performance, the M5 is more optimal.

Notice also that in 4th gear, the torque multiplication factor is 4% better for the M5, so the 1-2% advantage for the 1:1 higher efficiency in the V, should still give the M5 a slight upper hand, but in real life, the V pulls the M5 in 4th.

Now if you look at the chart for optimal V shift points:
http://www.cadillacfaq.com/faq/answers/img/shiftperf.jpg

You can see that both 2->3 and 3->4 are SUB-optimal in the V with a factory rev-limit of 6600rpm. So the V is making a huge ratio jump in the 3->4 shift and dropping out of the power band from 95mph to about 105, yet Jim claims that he is still pulling away from the M5 at this point (up to 110).

The speed in gears makes this a little more obvious:
http://www.cadillacfaq.com/faq/answers/img/vvelocity.jpg

And you can see that the MOST optimal shift in the V is the 4->5 shift, because instead of dropping out of the power band, you make a short ratio jump and end up starting 5th at 5500, putting down the same 340 or so whp that you were in 4th. I.e. you don't take a hp drop like 3rd-4th, which starts out back at 275whp or so back at 4500. So simply put, the V is really at the top of it's game from 100-160mph, and if you haven't pulled ahead by 100, there is little chance of getting it back.

Looking at that last chart, it is pretty clear why the V is no high speed record holder.... 6th gear is simply for highway mileage not top speed runs. In stock form, there just isn't enough power down below 4500 rpm to mount a charge towards the 180mph mark in 6th gear.

Michael

thebigjimsho
07-05-07, 02:52 PM
Yumm, 240mph in 6th...